Oh well
|
| Author | Content | ||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| rijelkentaurus Jun 04, 2007 6:41 AM EST |
The good news in all of this is that no one in the Free Software world really gave a crap about Xandros anyway. :) Just kidding...or am I? I'd like to know if the deal specifically says that Linux is infringing on MS patents or not. Novell has said that they never admitted it and don't believe it, but they said it too late for a large portion of the community. Hopefully Xandros hasn't admitted it and this is really about "technology exchange" and not patent protection. it may be harsh, but if they have agreed with MS that Linux is violating patents, I hope that they go the way of the dodo, as they are full of doodoo. Xandros has been rather financially strapped, however, so if the money was high enough they may have admitted to anything. I guess Mandriva has to be on MS' list somewhere. Notice that the Linux distributor who is not in financial straits, Red Hat, told MS where to get off. Money goes a long way towards contributing to bravery, both in our personal lives and in our corportate lives. If Xandros made no such concessions about Linux, however, then I hope they make it through okay. Their Linux ain't that bad...okay, it ain't that good, either, but at least they wouldn't really be a Judas to the community, just a fool company that hopped in bed with MS. Yes, some companies survive, but most don't. I wish them the best of luck. |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 6:53 AM EST |
Well, Xandros users get patent protection from MS, just like Novell's customers do -- if that is what you mean. |
||||||||||||
| rijelkentaurus Jun 04, 2007 7:02 AM EST |
No, not quite. Getting protection may look bad, may be bad, but it's not the same as saying that they're already infringing. It's like the difference between protection for crimes you may commit, versus a pardon for something you're already guilty of. The main thing I don't understand is how they'll deal with the negative PR effect in the communtiy. That's probably mitigated a bit by the fact that Xandros is not widely used in the community, largely because there isn't a free version. While Red Hat doesn't have a free version, there are a billion clones out there. The free clone of Xandros is...well, Debian, just that it's way better than Xandros. The old free version of 3.x was garbage. |
||||||||||||
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 04, 2007 7:10 AM EST |
>>It's like the difference between protection for crimes you may commit, versus a pardon for something you're already guilty of. I'm unfamiliar with any protection for crimes I may commit. Can you point to some? |
||||||||||||
| rijelkentaurus Jun 04, 2007 7:23 AM EST |
Such as a police department might work out deals with snitches and informants to keep them out of minor drug/etc/ violations in exchange for their continued cooperation. It's not a perfect analogy (what is?) but I think the point is pretty clear. |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 7:43 AM EST |
rijelkentaurus: I don't think Xandros admitted anything, much like Novell. As for the fallout, it's already starting. Just keep up with the Xandros forums: [HYPERLINK@forums.xandros.com]
Ouch. That's gotta hurt. But Xandros management deserve it all. It's their own customers speaking. |
||||||||||||
| henke54 Jun 04, 2007 7:55 AM EST |
[HYPERLINK@blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com] |
||||||||||||
| bigg Jun 04, 2007 7:55 AM EST |
Out of curiosity, does anyone have a link that gives us any details at all about what the deal amounted to? I know that any deal with Microsoft will scare away a small number of Linux users, but it would kind of be nice to at least know *something* about the deal before drawing a conclusion. Guess we're going to see GPLv4 in a few months. Companies that sell Linux are still doing deals with Microsoft. |
||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 04, 2007 7:59 AM EST |
>I'd like to know if the deal specifically says that Linux is infringing on MS patents or not. I don't even have to see the deal to know the answer. Any lawyer who let them sign a deal with language to that effect would be subject to malpractice. Besides ...how could Xandros do that? They have no idea if Linux is infringing Microsoft patents and they aren't the copyright holders anyway. Really, you've got to loosen up that tin-foil hat or you'll find that Microsoft has driven you to the Mac. |
||||||||||||
| rijelkentaurus Jun 04, 2007 7:59 AM EST |
True that. And these are people who had already voted with their pocketbooks, unlike most Linux users who use the Free Stuff for free. I didn't figure on things going well for Xandros. |
||||||||||||
| rijelkentaurus Jun 04, 2007 8:04 AM EST |
Your first two lines of your response were good. Why follow up with such a smart-butt comment? |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 8:19 AM EST |
@Bigg: Sure. [HYPERLINK@www.prnewswire.com]
It's the same "covenant not-to-sue" protection racket as MS-Novell. See bullet 4 "Intellectual property assurance". What henke quoted is the other way around: No Xandros patents go to MS. So there's no big payoff (presumably) for Xandros. Which makes this deal all-the-more curious. |
||||||||||||
| devnet Jun 04, 2007 8:27 AM EST |
Don't forget this one: [HYPERLINK@forums.xandros.com] Notice its from someone who's been a Xandrosian since 2003. Also [HYPERLINK@forums.xandros.com] Look at the 4th post down...someone who's been with them since the beginning with thousands of forum posts. My favorite quote from that thread:
Xandros, go sit in the corner and put on your dunce cap you idiots. That's about the nicest thing I could say to them. |
||||||||||||
| henke54 Jun 04, 2007 8:29 AM EST |
>Out of curiosity, does anyone have a link that gives us any details at all about what the deal amounted to? @bigg : [HYPERLINK@stephesblog.blogs.com] |
||||||||||||
| SFN Jun 04, 2007 8:56 AM EST |
Accusing people who have positions that differ from yours of being lunatics is a fairly common tactic. Although it's usually seen coming from those on the hard right, not someone as liberal as dino. |
||||||||||||
| NoDough Jun 04, 2007 9:41 AM EST |
I haven't seen the agreement, but I don't see anything malicious in it by looking at the overview. * Systems management interoperability * Server interoperability * Office document compatibility * Intellectual property assurance * Microsoft sales and marketing support Now, I'm not foolish enough to think that Microsoft doesn't have something up its sleeve (embrace, extend, extinguish.) But that doesn't justify labeling Xandros the Devil's mistress. [soapbox] Is our focus on building Linux, or tearing down Microsoft. You cannot construct a building at site A while you are tearing one down at site B. Put another way, you cannot be in two places at one time. So much of community is running to site B to tear down Microsoft (and anyone who communicates with them.) Who's left at site A to construct Linux? Xandros is an operating system business. Microsoft is an operating system business. The two will cross paths from time to time. That's business. Building Linux and opposing software patents are NOT business. They are charitable contributions to the world. Who cares what Microsoft, Xandros, Novell, Red Hat, etc. are doing. I want to construct a site that the world can come to without being given the business. I don't have to tear down the other sites. They will fall from neglect after they have been abandoned. [/soapbox] |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 10:43 AM EST |
I do:
And I will bet you 10 to 1 that Xandros pays a per-copy fee to Microsoft. Just like Novell does. It's not about building site A while tearing down site B. It's about building site A and preventing the disgruntled, vengeful folk who work at site B from destroying site A while we attempt to build it. |
||||||||||||
| number6x Jun 04, 2007 10:52 AM EST |
Xandros is Corel Linux. How many ex-Novell people are at Xandros. Wasn't Corel part of Novell during the Ralph Yarro era? The lawsuit against MS and then the settlement? I tried Corel Linux when it came out. It had a nice installer for that era, but I was pretty happy with plain debian and didn't see the point of using Corel. I'm just wondering how things might be interconnected beneath the surface. |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 11:16 AM EST |
I just had a though. Maybe we're seeing web 3.0 in action :-) web 1.0 1) Build a website 2) ??? 3) Profit! web 2.0 1) Build a website 2) ??? 3) Get bought by Google web 3.0 1) Build a Linux distro 2) ??? 3) Get bought off by Microsoft |
||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 04, 2007 11:21 AM EST |
>Your first two lines of your response were good. Why follow up with such a smart-butt comment? Oh come on!! a) I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam, smart-butt comments and all. b) I have made the point many times that I believe FOSS folks get paranoid whenever Microsoft enters the discussion. Yes, they are nasty people. Yes, don't trust them, but lets not lose our heads over it. >not someone as liberal as dino. Oh, the pain. For future reference, I refer to Rush Limbaugh as that bleeding-heart soft-headed communist sympathizer. |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 12:02 PM EST |
PS: Looks like even OEMs are turning their back:
And judging from the other comments on the forum, PCLinuxOS will be gaining quite some customers and perhaps even (community) developers. |
||||||||||||
| devnet Jun 04, 2007 1:25 PM EST |
Unfortunately, Microsoft has aligned itself so that they are one in the same. Microsoft has pit itself against Linux simply by offering indemnification from it's patent portfolio flexing. To grow, you cannot have something or someone stunting your growth. Threatening Linux users/developers with eye pee and patents is enough of a stifling sentiment to cause FUD to spring and growth to slow. It shouldn't be...but that's the way it is. If I were the strongest kid on the Lxer block and wanted everyone to play by my rules, I'd threaten them. If that threat was respected because of my past behavior, then the threat would be real and it would stifle any growth that I didn't want to happen. In this instance, my control would be unsaid and yet, inherent. Microsoft is and will always do the same thing.
What's great about PCLinuxOS is that the devs don't care what distribution you use...as long as you use Linux. So, as long as the Xandros guys/gals find a distro that they like and can support, no matter what it is and even if it's Ubuntu...good on them. :D |
||||||||||||
| d0nk3y Jun 04, 2007 2:07 PM EST |
number6x -> "Wasn't Corel part of Novell during the Ralph Yarro era?" No. While there may be ex-Novell people at Xandros, this will likely be people who were in the WordPerfect division when Novell bought that and then sold it to Corel later on (keeping GroupWise only). |
||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 04, 2007 2:11 PM EST |
devnet - >Microsoft has pit itself against Linux simply by offering indemnification from it's patent portfolio flexing. No, that's not at all what is happening. The free software community is attacking Linux distributions. Microsoft has simply figured out what it takes to make many knees jerk at once. |
||||||||||||
| bigg Jun 04, 2007 3:32 PM EST |
> The free software community is attacking Linux distributions. Microsoft has simply figured out what it takes to make many knees jerk at once. It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where the aliens took over Earth by randomly flipping on lights in houses. If the lights in your house turned on, you were a traitor and eliminated. |
||||||||||||
| kozmcrae Jun 04, 2007 3:37 PM EST |
>It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where the aliens took over Earth by randomly flipping on lights in houses. It was called "Nightmare on Maple Street". It's been redone recently but I haven't seen it. As far as I'm concerned though, the crap that Microsoft is pulling is scarier than anything I've seen on The Twilight Zone, and I've seen them all. |
||||||||||||
| vainrveenr Jun 04, 2007 4:19 PM EST |
Also something like a sniper's strategy. Instead of Microsoft performing a frontal IP Patent assault on the entire FOSS community all at once, it tries to pick off parts of it one by one first, like a sniper does in war, to weaken the foundation. First a Novell, now a Xandros, tomorrow a Who Knows What? Throw in some more FUD for good measure, like Brad Smith's claim of 235 patent violations of MS's by OSS. "Nightmare on Maple Street" Truth stranger than fiction? |
||||||||||||
| Aladdin_Sane Jun 04, 2007 4:47 PM EST |
I must add. The "sniper in the community" strategy also provides a terror effect. Remember that sniper they had in Washington a few years back? |
||||||||||||
| Igor Jun 04, 2007 6:21 PM EST |
[HYPERLINK@en.wikipedia.org] | ||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 04, 2007 6:53 PM EST |
>Also something like a sniper's strategy. In terms of strategy, yes, I think so. I do, however, like the "Nightmare on Maple Street" comparison, though, because the essence of that story is that the aliens didn't have to do their own dirty work. All that had to do was rile up the neighbors. |
||||||||||||
| kozmcrae Jun 04, 2007 8:28 PM EST |
>All that had to do was rile up the neighbors. Very good point. As if we needed any help. Our community really needs to get its act together. As long as we are unable to aggregate into a cohesive unit we will be taken out piece by piece by a company that has lost touch with its roots. A company that no longer plans to create new operating systems, they will simply co-opt an existing one that no one seems to own. I don't think they will succeed, but that doesn't mean they won't make life miserable for us while they crash and burn. And it doesn't mean they won't take a couple of companies down with them. Are you listening Novell, Xandros? |
||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 04, 2007 9:45 PM EST |
I was right! From [HYPERLINK@www.itnews.com.au]
|
||||||||||||
| land0 Jun 04, 2007 10:45 PM EST |
IMO it is M$ trying to beat the GPLv3 to finalization. Then hoping for the grandfather clause to be in place. | ||||||||||||
| Sander_Marechal Jun 05, 2007 12:56 AM EST |
@land0: I doubt it. The grandfather clause starts with the date of the MS-Novell deal, not the date GPLv3 is released. anything after March 28, 2007 (including the MS-Xandros deal) is not grandfathered it. | ||||||||||||
| SFN Jun 05, 2007 3:40 AM EST |
This is a great idea. However, as long as people who don't agree with a particular proposed plan for getting cohesive are viewed as being disloyal to the cause or ridiculed as conspiracy addicts, no actual cohesive unit will ever really exist. |
||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 05, 2007 3:49 AM EST |
>ridiculed as conspiracy addicts That's easy to fix: stop going nuts every time Microsoft says "Boo!". Sometimes I think Microsoft is driving the direction of free software more than the FSF is. |
||||||||||||
| SFN Jun 05, 2007 4:12 AM EST |
Way to not prove a point. | ||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 05, 2007 4:15 AM EST |
>Way to not prove a point. My, my, my. We are mite thin-skinned this morning. |
||||||||||||
| SFN Jun 05, 2007 4:22 AM EST |
Sure thing, Mr. O'Reilly. | ||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 05, 2007 4:26 AM EST |
>Sure thing, Good to see we agree. ;0) |
||||||||||||
| SFN Jun 05, 2007 4:27 AM EST |
Like two hippies in a hammock. Quit bogartin'. |
||||||||||||
| bigg Jun 05, 2007 4:37 AM EST |
> Way to not prove a point Actually, the problem with conspiracy theorists is that they do deep analysis without any facts at all. First Dell wasn't going to offer Linux because Microsoft wouldn't let them. Then Dell was going to offer Linux but do so poorly. Then Dell was offering one brand of Linux as part of a deal to allow them to offer another brand of Linux. There were two things in common with all of these stories. (i) Some members of the community put many, many hours of thought into their analysis. (ii) There was never a single fact to support any of the assertions, none of them were correct in the end, and most of those who made the assertions are still convinced they were right. What makes the noise about these deals so bad is that not only is there no evidence that they are bad, there's not even a good argument as to why they are bad, just some vague arguments about how a deal between Novell and Microsoft makes Red Hat look bad. Strange thing, it's now many months since the Novell deal was announced and I'm still using Debian without paying a tax to Microsoft. |
||||||||||||
| SFN Jun 05, 2007 5:12 AM EST |
The issue wasn't what is or isn't wrong with conspiracy theorists. It was summarily dismissing those you don't agree with in the name of cohesiveness. Labeling them as conspiracy theorists was one of the ways that was done. | ||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 05, 2007 5:15 AM EST |
>What makes the noise about these deals so bad It's worse than that. All that noise takes time and energy and funnels it into something that is ultimately none productive. It creates the "compiler warning" effect -- when a build routinely produces a pile of warnings, you tend to ignore them, including possible real problems that may arise. When everything is special, nothing is. A truly grotesque evil might get lost in the midst of routine, everyday evil. Mostly, though, it seems to put FOSS folks to work for Microsoft, letting their outrage take a toll that millions in marketing can't accomplish. |
||||||||||||
| dinotrac Jun 05, 2007 5:16 AM EST |
>It was summarily dismissing those you don't agree with in the name of cohesiveness. No, that's not it at all. Nobody has been dismissed. Somebody, however, has gotten in a snit. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!