So tired of the "I need to help them" fairytale.
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| r_a_trip Oct 27, 2009 4:48 PM EDT |
If people have honest questions about Linux, we need to be helping them find answers, and we need to do so without sarcastic comments, without "RTFM" and without telling people "just use Google." Well, let me respond shamelessly selfish. I owe nothing to newbies. I'm not Canonical's or Red Hat's or SUSE's unpaid helpdesk employee. I'd say, if someone wants to switch to Linux, he or she put in the elbow grease themselves. I bought books, spent time and purchased the right kit to run it and I did not run around the interwebs demanding and expecting to get everything put in front of me luke warm and bite size. So yes, RTFM and just use Google. You are just a Windows refugee (a dime a dozen), not a priceless asset. |
| tracyanne Oct 27, 2009 4:57 PM EDT |
Nice one r_a |
| jdixon Oct 27, 2009 5:57 PM EDT |
> So yes, RTFM and just use Google. Agreed, but sometimes they need pointers to even get that far, so it helps if you do both. A simple "man 'whatever' quote or a quoted Google search both enlightens them and shows them how to get the information in the future. |
| hkwint Oct 27, 2009 6:25 PM EDT |
Helping them can be considered selfish as well; By helping them, Linux might gain momentum meaning better support from hardware vendors (TomTom etc.), independent software vendors (AutoDesk, Adobe and the like), and eventually more developers. It how big you think the chances are that educating them will help gain momentum and will help your own experience, which causes some calculation to be made and to decide whether to help them or not might finally be beneficial to you or not. |
| Sander_Marechal Oct 27, 2009 6:27 PM EDT |
I agree with jdixon. Ofter it's not that they don't know they should google, it's that they don't know what they should google for. I ofter run into that problem myself. Then I simply hop into IRC and ask around. Even if they can't help me on IRC they can usually tell me what to google for. |
| caitlyn Oct 27, 2009 7:04 PM EDT |
Linuxchix was founded by Deb Richardson 11 years ago precisely because women were getting the RTFM treatment, sometimes with a little sexism sprinkled in. RTFM, by definition, is rude. Linux touts the community support model (all of FOSS does) and then treats people who are lost and turn to that model with utter rudeness. I remember one story abut how someone was asked mockingly if they had read the man page. They didn't know what a man page was so how could they? People weren't born breathing in *nix. It does not come naturally. Many distributions have NO corporate backing. (Most, actually.) I would say r_a_trip's attitude is precisely what is still wrong with much of the Linux community. It undoes all the advocacy work people do and drives people back to Windows. Very nice. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 27, 2009 7:08 PM EDT |
Help if you wish, don't if you don't. |
| caitlyn Oct 27, 2009 7:41 PM EDT |
@Steven: I agree wholeheartedly. Nobody is under obligation to provide support. If you don't want to then simply ignore the request. Don't be rude about it or mock the newcomer. That is all I am really saying. |
| gus3 Oct 27, 2009 8:41 PM EDT |
Unless it's Dad or Mom (or Grandpa or Grandma). After all, they raised you (or helped out in a big way). Yes, I know, sometimes tech support for family members is a distant second to root canals on the list of Things I'd Rather Suffer Through. |
| jezuch Oct 28, 2009 3:16 AM EDT |
I thought there's an unwritten rule that you should help those that are willing to RTFM themselves and on their own and ask questions only if they're stuck. Otherwise it's just a waste of time. (You've never met people that just yell "GIVE ME!!!" or "fix it NOW!!"?). |
| flufferbeer Oct 28, 2009 4:35 AM EDT |
Yeah jezuch, I have the same mind on this.
Similar to r_a_trip and jdixon.
I feel that it's best to help someone who really WANTS to be helped +and+ who puts even a MINIMAL effort into finding things out for themselves rather than just allow themselves to get spoonfed...... although the truth be known (like gus3's Suffer Through), sometimes many of us simply MUST help those desperately screaming the loudest for tech help.
Ya know the old saying, "The squeeky wheel always gets the grease".
(AAMOF, some of us find it funny how many "squeeky wheels" just cannot get off their addiction to Win$suck$.... but that's a bit tangential) On being spoon-fed tech help, there's even another saying, IIRC: "Give a man a fish (spoon-feed him), and you feed him and his family for a day. But let the man learn HOW to fish (if he really wants to), and he'll provide food for him and his family for MANY days." Okay, you maybe you'll never try to catch fish, so something else'll be your own RTFM ! ++ go to to jezuch, r_a_trip and jdixon 2c |
| jacog Oct 28, 2009 5:30 AM EDT |
Build a man a fire, and you warm him for an evening. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. |
| tracyanne Oct 28, 2009 5:34 AM EDT |
Quoting:So yes, RTFM and just use Google. You are just a Windows refugee (a dime a dozen), not a priceless asset. Help or don't as you choose, but is it really necessary to be rude when refusing to help. I might point out this isn't something unique to the Linux community, being rude when asked for help, but given that the Linux community is allegedly about sharing, the attitude that seems so prevalent among so many long time Linux Users, that newbies who want help are somehow nothing more than annoying parasites, confuses and annoys me. Caitlyn is right. Quoting:People weren't born breathing in *nix. It does not come naturally. Many distributions have NO corporate backing. (Most, actually.) I would say r_a_trip's attitude is precisely what is still wrong with much of the Linux community. It undoes all the advocacy work people do and drives people back to Windows. Very nice. Not everyone is a tech head, and especially not the majority of new Linux users, they need help, and lots of it, just as much as when they were using Windows, in fact, and some of them will need a great deal of hand holding. The very fact that they are even trying to use Linux should be enough to gain every experienced Linux users respect. |
| caitlyn Oct 28, 2009 2:17 PM EDT |
I would also point out that in order to RTFM the person has to know where the manual is. It may be obvious to you or me but not to a newbie. What I find really annoying about some of the comments is the assumption that a user is unwilling to help themselves. Some people are so green they don't even know where to begin. Giving them a friendly pointer to the manual is sometimes all that is needed to get a warm thank you. Sorry, considering what the F in RTFM means that response is NEVER appropriate. OK, maybe if someone is a total jerk, but otherwise no. |
| tuxchick Oct 28, 2009 5:33 PM EDT |
What jacog said. :) There are many excellent noob-oriented books, like 'Ubuntu For Non-Geeks'. Other distros have their own books, and many are free. YouTube is full of howto videos, though a lot of them are awful. But there are good ones. The fine manual has many different forms in these here modern times. |
| r_a_trip Oct 29, 2009 10:28 AM EDT |
Seems like a lot of people are afraid I troll the forums to RTFM and do "Let me Google that for you" to newbies. Have no fear, I don't. I have nothing to say to newbies. I believe that, ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own machines, ignorance not withstanding. You can try to outsource your own "computing business", but then it better be commercial support. You are using a computer, it's not like you are a charitable cause. I won't turn down people who are genuinely seeking help and can't seem to connect the dots on their own. I do however tell people to help themselves, when it is perfectly clear they don't want help, but try to turn me into an IT serf. There is a distinct difference between having tried and failed and thus needing help and just expecting other to perform their own maintenance for them. I've had a little too much of the latter. Using Google isn't that hard though. There is a very basic formula for searching/troubleshooting. What do you use, what is the thing called that gives trouble, what is the trouble. E.g. Ubuntu Firefox flash doesn't play. you may need to fiddle a bit with the search items, but so far, this template has served me and others well. I was a Windows refugee once too. (And an Amiga refugee and a DOS/Win 3.11 refugee.) I learned to work my systems, sometimes with disgust. DOS/Win 3.11 was repugnant after using Amiga Workbench. I have bought books, put in time and I always searched first instead of just plonking a question online wich was answered a gazillion times over before. So yes, RTFM (F can also be Friendly) and Googling is perfectly acceptable. No one died to make me God, and I suspect nobody else did to elevate a newbie to a precious, sacred state. |
| vainrveenr Oct 29, 2009 10:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:Using Google isn't that hard though. There is a very basic formula for searching/troubleshooting. What do you use, what is the thing called that gives trouble, what is the trouble. E.g. Ubuntu Firefox flash doesn't play. you may need to fiddle a bit with the search items, but so far, this template has served me and others well.As another commentator best pointed out above "Some people are so green they don't even know where to begin. Giving them a friendly pointer to the manual is sometimes all that is needed to get a warm thank you." Perhaps such pointers can apply to fiddling with Google as well. Also, at some point everyone (without exception!) WAS and WILL BE a newbie in some completely new and different technology specialization. This could be with a Linux distro, a new *BSD release, a new Cloud app, a new Mono app, an avant-garde hardware technology, ...etcetera. In short, nearly any technology which requires a learning-curve however small or large. If the M in the Friendly and non-attitude form of RTFM is too complex for a bona fide newbie to understand -- e.g., a violation of the K.I.S.S. Principle, somewhat akin to Occam's Razor (http://www.2think.org/occams_razor.shtml) -- then the RTFM approach becomes essentially worthless and such newbies are likely to either forsake the technology in question or else rely/"serf"-upon others for support; whether such support is commercial or otherwise. An example of a commonly-found and blatant workplace violation in the RTFM approach, is thrusting upon a newbie a reference book of over 1000 pages on the new technology in question, in a case when this particular newbie only needs to get effectively started in the technology with only 10-20 pages of out of such an absolutely voluminous reference manual. Easily exacerbating this particular RTFM approach, is the short time-requirement imposed upon such a "newbie" to rapidly assimilate the large amount of reference material. This pressure-cooking situation easily leads to the dissuasive "sink-or-swim" response, http://www.goenglish.com/SinkOrSwim.asp If the learning curve is much too high here, then the newbie's "sinking" here effectively lowers his/her adoption of the new technology until some time as the bar becomes lowered. Therefore, one might do well to be somewhat wary of the RTFM approach's intrinsic value, unless TFM for the newbie should indeed conform to the K.I.S.S. Principle on his/her behalf. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 29, 2009 10:48 PM EDT |
It all depends on how badly you want new users. And users who aren't hardened geeks. RTFM doesn't bring people in. That's just the way it is. |
| tuxchick Oct 30, 2009 12:45 AM EDT |
OTOH, as r_a_trip says, no one is obliged to assist noobs. |
| gus3 Oct 30, 2009 1:44 AM EDT |
OTOH, to quote a 2,000-year-old maxim: "Freely have you received; freely give." |
| Cypress Oct 30, 2009 3:41 AM EDT |
I totally agree with r_a_trip. |
| r_a_trip Oct 30, 2009 6:10 AM EDT |
"Freely have you received; freely give." "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." What I know about Linux in general, is stuff I had to read and memorize and find out through time consuming trial and error. Not exactly freely received. It also depends on the person how willing I am to help. Ask me politely and I won't turn down a help request. If you give me vinegar instead of honey... Something funny hit me just now. The tuxradar piece is in itself a Friendly Manual. All the stuff collected there is valuable, but if you point a newbie to it, how ever nice you do that, you still say Read The Friendly Manual. Maybe that is the biggest problem. No matter how much is documented, a newcomer will expect to see a bitesized answer posted right under his question. When you ask questions, you have a problem you "wanted solved yesterday", because whatever problem you have, it is a roadblock to what you were really trying to do. So any additional work you have to do is a waste of time in relation to the task you really want to perform. The "I want it all and I want it now" nature of some newbie questions can press the wrong buttons. I understand that a timely and succinct answer can save them a lot of time, but what about our time? We spent a considerable amount of time to learn what we know. Plus, restating what has been said a gazillion times before is wasting our time. I'm just glad that I understood very early on that I was an "intruder" entering a new domain when I started using Linux. I made sure I got to know the mores of the unknown lands. I accepted RTFM and searching very early on, and discovered that most of my questions already had been answered a thousand times over. Then again, I was brought up with the notion that if you want something, you have to work for it. Some newcomers apparently didn't get that upbringing and think just because they made the personal choice to use Linux provides them automatic entitlement to our help. |
| gus3 Oct 30, 2009 9:57 AM EDT |
@r_a: +1 Interesting There are times I would agree with you, and believe me, nobody bootstrapped from printed matter more than I did. However, sometimes RTFM isn't an option to give, because TFM (or the relevant section in it) simply doesn't exist. It was about a month ago, on these very boards, that somebody pointed out great big FIXMEs in the online Fedora docs. Or the signal:noise ratio on the forums. It was only by sheer luck I found a workable (for me) solution to the Intel video driver bug for Ubuntu 9.04, buried deep within a bug report. Even the book I bootstrapped from had a level of noise I couldn't ignore. Or it hasn't been stated a gazillion times, and the actual problem is so arcane that only a finely-crafted Google search will work. (And you hope the solution is explained in a language you can read. I once found the solution to a Sun hardware problem on a page in Dutch. After the third re-install, I put an explanation in English into our permanent internal doc repository.) Yes, there are those who say "jump!" and want the world to ask "how high?". I ignore them. But if someone can enumerate their attempts to repair the problem, and they sound reasonable (i.e. are asking only for a pointer to available documentation), I am willing to donate some effort. You never know how your own particular knowledge set may help others. |
| jdixon Oct 30, 2009 10:11 AM EDT |
> I understand that a timely and succinct answer can save them a lot of time, but what about our time? My time is the only real thing I have to give back to the community. I can't donate large sums of money (some small sums, yes, and I do), I'm not a programmer, and my efforts to recommend Linux to folks have mostly fallen on deaf ears. Given the low newbie uptake of Slackware, I do a lot less of it then I used to though. |
| caitlyn Oct 30, 2009 12:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'm just glad that I understood very early on that I was an "intruder" entering a new domain when I started using Linux. No, you weren't. Perhaps that is precisely the problem and precisely what I find so incredibly wrong about your attitude. Many leaders in the wider FOSS community and the Linux community in particular spend a huge amount of time on advocacy: trying to bring non-Linux/FOSS users, and Windows users in particular, into the fold. They spend endless inches of column space, innumerable web pages, and hours and hours of talks and presentations inviting people to try Linux. The point: newbies are not intruders; they are invited guests. No, you personally didn't invite them so you, personally, are under no obligation to help them. However, when you make them feel like intruders or treat them like spoiled, stupid children you can undo all the work that has been done to bring them over in the first place. Quoting:but what about our time? Nobody is forcing you to give time. However, consider that you are using products which include work of many, many volunteers who freely did give their time. It's part of the nature of FOSS. Giving back, in time or money or some other way is only fair. I know many people "freeload" and that is also part of the nature of FOSS. However, those who do give our time, be it in helping a FOSS project with our skills or helping a newbie, understand that FOSS will always be only as good as the efforts put into it, which will always be a mix of paid and volunteer efforts. Without those volunteer efforts a lot of FOSS projects would not be able to compete the proprietary alternatives out there. Once again, the Linux community touts the community support model. You can be part of that model. You can choose not to be part of that model, which is fine. Or you can give snarky answers, tell newbies to RTFM (see gus3's very valid point on how valuable that isn't), and write threads like this. In doing so you don't just hurt a demanding newbie that rubbed you the wrong way. You hurt the entire Linux and FOSS communities. |
| hkwint Oct 30, 2009 2:44 PM EDT |
Well, it's great there are such fine docs and nowadays Linux distro's work well enough, that most of the time you don't need to ask on a forum / on IRC. When I was completely new to UNIX (somebody installed OpenBSD for me) and not even a Windows refugee yet, I found the NetBSD docs: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/index.html If you just follow the guide, you'll learn almost everything. When I was completely new to Linux (the same person installed Gentoo for me because OpenBSD was too hard, NetBSD couldn't mount my FAT-partitions and FreeBSD couldn't install OOo and my printer), I found the Gentoo docs: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=install If somebody is so gentle to point you to such great docs, and learns you how to use man pages and GPM (to copy / paste errors to a search engine), most of the times you don't have to ask on any forums. However, here's the thing: The mentioned docs - especially the Gentoo ones - are rather huge. The 'search space' indexed by search engines is even far greater. It's much quicker to ask on forums or IRC than to sift through all the docs. I had much free time, so the last six years of using BSD/Linux, I only asked about five questions in forums and only one in IRC. For the rest, everything was in the docs and the manual pages. But most people don't have (want to spend) the amount of time I spent. I just started to read all chapters of the mentioned docs consecutively. That's quite a large amount to read, and most people are not willing to do all these things in consecutive order. So I think if you can point people to good documentation and explain them they need to understand the basis before installing about details, most of there problems may be solved, and there's no need for them to encounter the 'RTFM' answer because they don't have to ask questions in first place. |
| jdixon Oct 30, 2009 4:49 PM EDT |
> ...and GPM (to copy / paste errors to a search engine), Something which Slackware includes but most of the other distro's I've tried don't. :( |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!