No controversy. Just ranting.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| HoTMetaL Sep 18, 2010 6:26 AM EDT |
I've grown way tired of the Shuttleworth/Ubuntu hatefest. Love 'em or hate 'em, Mark has had tremendous influence in turning unsophisticated desktop users on to his idea of a free, GNU/Linux operating system. And according to Distrowatch, he's obviously doing something right. Perhaps Shuttleworth should disband Canonical and shift his focus and direct his wealth at Redmond or Cupertino. Maybe then all of the whining asshats could finally reach FOSS nirvana. |
| bigg Sep 18, 2010 8:57 AM EDT |
> And according to Distrowatch, he's obviously doing something right. That's a questionable statement, but nonetheless, Ubuntu is doing everything it is obligated to do. |
| gus3 Sep 18, 2010 1:07 PM EDT |
According to market figures, Microsoft is obviously doing something right. But for sure it ain't R&D. |
| azerthoth Sep 18, 2010 1:13 PM EDT |
@bigg +1 |
| tracyanne Sep 18, 2010 7:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:Ubuntu is doing everything it is obligated to do. They also seem to be doing things that few other Linux dependent corporations are doing, and certainly something quite at odds with what Linux Foundation deem best for Linux.... Marketing Linux on the desktop. |
| hkwint Sep 18, 2010 8:01 PM EDT |
Indeed, they take an 'extremistic' view when it comes to "UI-optimising", like discussing for weeks if one tiny little button has to move to another side or not, but at least somebody is spending the much needed attention to the GUI now. |
| azerthoth Sep 18, 2010 8:04 PM EDT |
TA ... marketing ... where? OHHHH an OEM making a token offer to shut up a few vocal users, I get it. |
| tracyanne Sep 18, 2010 10:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:OHHHH an OEM making a token offer to shut up a few vocal users, I get it. I thought we were talking about Canonical and Ubuntu, but at least Dell did do the right thing in the end. Token or not, the code is now out there. |
| HoTMetaL Sep 19, 2010 5:12 AM EDT |
And because of Canonical's efforts, the code is now in the hands of my Facebook-addicted sister and ESPN.com-addicted best friend, who bought a Dell Inspiron 15n with Ubuntu preinstalled and haven't bothered me with a tech question since. Neither know the difference between RAM and a hard drive, but both can attest that their notebook works very well for everything that they do with a computer. So can both of my parents, who use Ubuntu on the desktop for their business everyday. I don't agree with many of the decisions that Canonical makes (left-side window control placement was a boneheaded idea), but to their credit they are out there and promoting a free, Linux-based alternative to proprietary operating systems and attempting to improve upon it. And for that, I will support them. |
| kenholmz Sep 19, 2010 11:39 AM EDT |
What does any of this have to do with Planet Gnome adding Mark Shuttleworth's blog to their site?
Not much, I think. What to think about a person who is tired of the "hatefest" referring to others as "asshats"? Of course, if you disagree with me you are subhuman ;) |
| tracyanne Sep 19, 2010 6:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:referring to others as "asshats"? But, I always wonder, is why it's such an insult to be compared to a hat on a donkey, ass hats seem to me to be quite useful given the condition that some donkeys have to work under, indeed it seems to me that the use of such appliances implies that the donkey owners really care about their animals. |
| kenholmz Sep 19, 2010 7:14 PM EDT |
Good point, TA. What about Gnome caps? |
| KernelShepard Sep 19, 2010 7:55 PM EDT |
Here's a link to the bug report requesting Mark be added to Planet GNOME: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=625728 IMHO, Miguel de Icaza makes a lot of good arguments in favor of adding Mark to the Planet. |
| devnet Sep 19, 2010 10:38 PM EDT |
@Kernel, I think adding in someone, ANYONE'S blog, that only has one post about Gnome...that's a travesty. I had hoped my post would get this point across and then get people to discuss. Evidently, I'm just ranting despite asking what people thought and whether they agree with what I discussed or not. |
| tracyanne Sep 19, 2010 11:27 PM EDT |
@devnet I don't have a problem with it, it is such a non issue for me. I thought Miguel had a good point, but I don't care enough to get my knickers in a twist. |
| KernelShepard Sep 20, 2010 8:43 AM EDT |
devnet: Planet GNOME has never required that posts be /about/ GNOME, only that it consists of people who /contribute/ to GNOME in some way. So many of the posts on p.g.o do not talk about GNOME. Some talk about KDE or Qt or cooking. |
| devnet Sep 20, 2010 9:58 AM EDT |
kernel, It's in the FAQ for planet Gnome. I wouldn't have written the article if I didn't think there was a basis for it. |
| lcafiero Sep 20, 2010 10:39 AM EDT |
Though rant-y and perhaps a bit rigid, I think the blogger makes a valid point: If Mark Shuttleworth doesn't regularly blog about GNOME, then why is he on their planet in the first place? Secondly, I've grown way tired of people raising the "you hate Ubuntu" hue and cry every time someone either makes an observation about Ubuntu's/Canonical's shortcomings or criticizes Mark Shuttleworth and/or Ubuntu. Yes, Ubuntu/Canonical does great things for Linux, but that does not make them above reproach. Also, one of the functions of criticism is that it points out flaws (if they are valid) that need correcting -- why that is lost on folks from Shuttleworth on down is a mystery. Also, thanks for the quick lesson in the etymology of "asshat" -- a term I've always used often but did not know its origin. |
| kenholmz Sep 21, 2010 10:10 PM EDT |
I am familiar with donkeys, mules and burros wearing hats, usually straw hats. I am equally aware of substitutions and clever connections where none exists. |
| HoTMetaL Sep 22, 2010 1:15 AM EDT |
In the case of this thread, asshattery defines the practice of one who publishes a blog post specifically intended to incite controversy or to provoke a litany of argumentative comments about an issue that is neither controversial, nor of any real importance to most people. An asshat enjoys stirring sh*t up when none really exists, or takes pleasure in relighting fires that have long since smoldered out by writing phrases like "Let’s throw some gasoline on that fire for your Friday!! It’s time for a Barbecue!" An asshat enjoys infighting and controversy, and feeds on the dramatical events and emotional outbursts that he may incite with just a few lines of text. He's very happy with this thread's outcome. He has succeeded. Back to the topic: I'm hopeful that Shuttleworth's acceptance in the super-exclusive Planet GNOME persuades him to contribute more of his company's ideas and discussion about GNOME back to its community. Open collaboration and dialogue is necessary for every open source project to succeed, and it directly benefits all of its users. |
| tracyanne Sep 22, 2010 2:54 AM EDT |
over here we usually spell it with an r after the a, use a single s and add an e at the end of the first word, and replace hat with hole. But that's just us, you know what we're like. |
| devnet Sep 22, 2010 10:44 AM EDT |
Using your definition then, I am not an asshat. The controversy existed on what Canonical contributes to Gnome already and my having a beef with the Gnome Planet Editors ignoring their own rules to allow Mark Shuttleworth in is only secondary to the preexisting controversy. |
| tracyanne Sep 22, 2010 6:28 PM EDT |
@devnet, it's possible that they broke their own rules well before that. I do recall one commentator stating that he was invited in, but that at the time all he was likely to contribute was blogs on Classical music. Seriously I think it's something nothing. I think way too many people are taking themselves way too seriously. |
| devnet Sep 23, 2010 10:54 PM EDT |
tracyanne, I question the timing mostly. It seemed to come on the heels of reports on the lackof upstream contributions. But you're probably right. |
| caitlyn Sep 24, 2010 4:39 PM EDT |
I have grown way tired of people who define criticism of Ubuntu or Canonical or Mark Shuttleworth as Ubuntu-hatred or a hatefest. I ran Ubuntu and/or Xubuntu as my primary OS for a while and was very much an enthusiastic supporter in the Dapper Drake and Edge Eft era. I wrote some rather flattering reviews at the time, too. See: http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2006/12/xubuntu_gets_ed... I doubt anyone would see that review as the work on an Ubuntu-hater. Quite the contrary. Sadly, since then, many Ubuntu releases have gone from bad to worse. Bugs were not fixed within a release cycle and the number of serious bugs greatly exceeded what I was seeing in other distros. Like many rather well respected Linux writers I reached a boiling point, threw my hands up in the air, gave up, and wrote about it: [url=http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/04/ubuntu-is-a-poor-standard-bear.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed: oreilly/linux (O'Reilly Media: Linux)]http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/04/ubuntu-is-a-poor-standa...[/url] When the hordes of Ubuntu fans charged in to defend their beloved distribution I realized I had not stated some things clearly enough. I clearly was not saying "Ubuntu is crap" or anything even vaguely of the sort so I wrote a clarifying piece at: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/04/how-canonical-can-do-ub... much as Carla Schroder had done when she got to basically the same point more than two years earlier than I did: http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/12/ubuntu_linux_us... Most of us who get accused of being "Ubuntu haters" nowdays were once Ubuntu supporters. How did we get turned around? Dismissing criticism as being an "asshat" doesn't make the criticism less valid. It does make the person doing the dismissing look like a blind zealot. Regarding Mr. Shuttleworth himself, well... while I certainly acknowledge what he has accomplished I find it awfully hard to forgive sexist or misogynistic comments, or for that matter, many of his less offensive comments that simply are dismissive of the community that uses and often contributes to his distribution. If you don't know what sexist comments I am referring to here are a few posts about the most egregious example: http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/09/mark-shuttlewor-1.ht... http://geekfeminism.org/2009/09/23/open-letter-to-mark-shutt... http://www.junauza.com/2009/09/why-mark-shuttleworth-owes-fo... Either due to deliberate Canonical policy or because of corporate lawyers run amok, Canonical has now introduced a contributor agreement that many find questionable and raises real questions about Canonical/Ubuntu's understand of and commitment to FOSS: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3904... http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2010/09/copyright-assignments-gon... It is so easy to dismiss anyone who is sharply critical of Ubuntu as a "hater" and act like nothing is wrong. It is far more difficult to engage in a meaningful discussion of the real issues surrounding Ubuntu. Doing so requires putting one's brain in gear. |
| coffeeAndBagels Sep 30, 2010 6:38 PM EDT |
@ caitlyn Very well said! I just thought I would pop in and note that Mr. Shuttleworth has apologized (somewhat late) for his previous comments: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/439#comment-329657 Also, if you read some of Matt Asays writings (i.e. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/10/monopolies_are_good/), it becomes clear that perhaps critics should be looking at Canonical management in general and not "Mark Shuttleworth - the human" for clues as to what's going on with the direction of Canonical. With its recent 'partnership' with wordpress, it seems clear that microsoft has already picked up on what the next incarnation of Ubuntu is envisioned as. I love Ubuntu (the distro and the definition), and it's my personal opinion that critics are exactly what's needed most right now :) @ HoTMetaL: Uh, if this was meant as a "birthday gift", I don't see how anyone wouldn't see calling people asshats on their behalf as a very twisted one. |
| caitlyn Sep 30, 2010 8:12 PM EDT |
I read the first post by Mark Shuttleworth and then had to go through the comments in detail. Yes, he apologized on July 30, 2010 after several posts by Máirín Duffy and Carla Schroder pushed him on the subject. He ignored them at first while answering other posts but finally there was a generic sort of apology. Yes, I appreciate the apology and yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what he wrote in his post. I'm just a little bit saddened at how long that apology took and what it took in the comments section to finally get it out of him. The link to the Matt Asay article doesn't work for me. I will say that all leaders are human beings and will be judged for all the do and say, positive and negative. I don't think trying to create artificial barriers to what is said when is helpful. One thing I really need to make clear: I want Canonical and Ubuntu to succeed and, by extension, that means I want Mark Shuttleworth to succeed. To quote Adam Williamson's response to another, more recent Shuttleworth blog post: "I carp because I care." |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2010 9:40 PM EDT |
It was the merest, tiniest, most minimal apology possible, a half-hearted insincere sort-of apology: "I apologize unreservedly to all offended". Feh. I spit. Taking zero responsibility for his own actions, and buried deeply in the comments in a lengthy thread, and he still refuses to discuss the issue, or answer any of the fanboys who think Mairin and me are nasty girls who should just shut up because Mark did nothing wrong. Contrast that with all the time and energy he spend smoothing Greg DeKoenigsberg's hurt feelings, and all the lengthy discussion around that and related issues. What did he do that upset Greg? Over three years ago Mark S. called Red Hat a proprietary software company. Oo. World stop spinning, stars dim, sun explode. I apologized once for calling him a sexist twit. I take it back. Mark Shuttleworth is a sexist twit. No, that's not right-- an arrogant sexist twit. Just think if he had the courage to confront his own sexism and hypocrisy, and the issue of sexism in tech, what a difference that would make. Linus won't do it. RMS won't do it. None of the big names of Linux will touch it because they're blind to it or too chicken. Feh on the lot of 'em. |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2010 9:46 PM EDT |
Wups, I might be wrong about RMS, though I don't know if he is involved in it-- the Free Software Foundation sponsors a Women's Caucus. |
| caitlyn Oct 01, 2010 12:08 AM EDT |
Did RMS ever apologize for his sexist comments? IIRC he not only didn't, but even said he had nothing to apologize for. His Caucus is about as helpful as Mark Shuttleworth's tribalism blog post. They are both effectively saying "do as I say, not as I do." Leaders lead by example and neither of these guys sets a very good example IMHO. Still, some acknowledgment and some sort of apology, however minimal, is far better than nothing. |
| HoTMetaL Oct 01, 2010 2:27 AM EDT |
I'd like to comment on coffeAndBagel's attributing a quote to me that I never wrote, but it's pointless. The thread has devolved into another sexism re-hash. Like the Shuttleworth vs. GNOME artificial controversy, the sexism horse has also been whipped SO many times already. It serves only to drive blog traffic. It's time for new material, people. This is tiring. Thoughts I expressed in my post prior to this one have been completely affirmed. devnet and caitlyn have no shortage of gasoline on hand, and they're hungry for the same old barbecue. How 'bout a nice salad? |
| caitlyn Oct 01, 2010 1:14 PM EDT |
HoTMetaL: You compare a controversy about a blog post with very real bias and discrimination that affects the lives of people? The sexism issue is NOT beating a dead horse because it has not gone away. If anything else, it seems to be getting worse right now in U.S. society in general. The best way to fight discrimination and prejudice is to shine a light on it. The thread has not "devolved". It actually is dealing with an important issue. It only devolved when you commented. Anyone who defends bigotry and prejudice or tries to sweep it under the table is part of the problem. |
| HoTMetaL Oct 01, 2010 2:41 PM EDT |
I'll never defend bigotry, prejudice, sexism, racism, homophobia, or any of the disgusting ills that plague U.S. society and others. You already made your point months ago about the comments you found insensitive. Reigniting that same flame war over and over again does absolutely nothing productive to fight these issues. |
| caitlyn Oct 01, 2010 2:48 PM EDT |
I just looked through the thread. The was no flame war until you started one. I will say it again: The best way to fight discrimination and prejudice is to shine a light on it. I will NOT stop shining a light on these issues until they are no longer, to use your words: "disgusting ills that plague U.S. society and others." |
| tuxchick Oct 01, 2010 2:51 PM EDT |
Quoting: Secondly, I've grown way tired of people raising the "you hate Ubuntu" hue and cry every time someone either makes an observation about Ubuntu's/Canonical's shortcomings or criticizes Mark Shuttleworth and/or Ubuntu. Yes, Ubuntu/Canonical does great things for Linux, but that does not make them above reproach. Also, one of the functions of criticism is that it points out flaws (if they are valid) that need correcting -- why that is lost on folks from Shuttleworth on down is a mystery. Indeed. |
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