myeah we'll see
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick May 08, 2012 1:03 PM EDT |
OEMs like Dell spend squillions making Windows somewhat work out of the box with custom software and drivers and other tweaks, but can't quite figure out Linux. Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. |
| zentrader May 08, 2012 1:24 PM EDT |
I want to know if we still pay the M$ tax if we buy one. |
| JaseP May 08, 2012 1:34 PM EDT |
No, they pay the tax and pass on the cost... So indirectly, I guess. |
| Fettoosh May 08, 2012 1:44 PM EDT |
What a stunt . Developers don't really need any OS pre-installed from them. Actually, they prefer to have No-OS computers so they can pick and chose whatever OS/Distro they like. With the different shenanigans Dell tried in the past to portray their support for Linux, no one will believe them any more, and especially not developers. |
| Khamul May 08, 2012 1:58 PM EDT |
What an utterly stupid idea. What kind of idiot developer would want to run Unity, a UI that runs everything maximized? Serious developers use Thinkpads (or desktop PCs), not cheap little laptops running a junk UI aimed at nontechnical consumers. |
| BernardSwiss May 08, 2012 4:31 PM EDT |
Reading these comments I can't help but connect the dots as presented...Quoting:OEMs like Dell spend squillions making Windows somewhat work out of the box with custom software and drivers and other tweaks, but can't quite figure out Linux. Straining at gnats and swallowing camels. Quoting:Developers don't really need any OS pre-installed from them. Actually, they prefer to have No-OS computers so they can pick and chose whatever OS/Distro they like. Quoting:What an utterly stupid idea. What kind of idiot developer would want to run Unity, a UI that runs everything maximized? Designed to fail? |
| Fettoosh May 08, 2012 5:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:Designed to fail? Just like the previous attempts. Nothing new. |
| tracyanne May 08, 2012 6:16 PM EDT |
We know 2 things from this announcement, 1) the XPS13 will work just fine with Linux, and 2) you will soon be able to purchase 1 with Linux (Ubuntu) pre installed. The fact that they are pushing it at developers is actually rather rather irrelevant, the developer bit is downloadable scripts. Ubuntu can be replaced with any Linux one chooses. |
| caitlyn May 08, 2012 6:17 PM EDT |
What tracyanne said. I think the fact that Dell hasn't given up on Linux like other manufacturers have and is still willing to tout Linux offerings when Microsoft clearly wishes they wouldn't is a GOOD THING. |
| BernardSwiss May 08, 2012 6:34 PM EDT |
Well, that's another possible interpretation: "Don't be mad at us, Mr. Ballmer, This is just for those Linux-y developer types -- nothing to worry about, really. Really." |
| tracyanne May 08, 2012 6:40 PM EDT |
One thing I do find intriguing is the use of scripts to tailor the software install to fit the type of development work desired. One problem I have is locating exactly what needs to be installed to get, for example, a good PHP development environment. I wish a meta package was available in the repository for that sort of thing. |
| Fettoosh May 08, 2012 8:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:One problem I have is locating exactly what needs to be installed to get, for example, a good PHP development environment. You really don't need that as long as xampp/Friends Of Apache is available. I have been using it for a while and really handy and helpful. |
| Fettoosh May 08, 2012 9:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think the fact that Dell hasn't given up on Linux ... Dell has never been serious or sincere about supporting Linux. If they were, they wouldn't offer PCs with windows at a lower cost than the ones with Linux even though the hardware was the same. What is worse, some times the Windows ones had better hardware and the cost was still lower than the Linux ones. The few times they offered Linux PC, they haven't even attempted at doing a little marketing or stopped hiding or make it difficult for customer to find Linux products on their web site. Why would anyone care to take them seriously. |
| caitlyn May 08, 2012 9:39 PM EDT |
Oh, I don't know, because what Dell did and does is more than any other manufacturer. Because a third of the netbooks they sold ran Linux and they weren't afraid to say it. I'm sorry, but I detect more than a little anti-Dell bias. |
| Khamul May 08, 2012 10:28 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: I hate to defend Dell, but there's a very sound economic reason they offer Linux at a higher cost than PCs with Windows: it costs them more, so they have to pass the cost on to you, the customer. The reason they cost more is because of cr@pware. Windows PCs require an OEM Windows license (which is much cheaper than a standard Windows license, like you'd get if you bought a boxed copy of Windows; the OEM type doesn't even come with an install disc, only at best a recovery partition on your HD). This obviously adds some cost. However, the Windows boxes also come with a metric ****ton of cr@pware, as some might put it. This is all the junk from Norton and their ilk that is pre-installed on the PC as a "trial version" that they try to goad you into paying extra for the "full version" later. This cr@pware isn't installed on these PCs as a service to you, it's installed to try to sell you more junk. So why would Dell bother to do this? Because they're getting kickbacks from the cr@pware makers in exchange for preloading this software. Those kickbacks are significant, and end up being likely more than the OEM Windows license costs them from Microsoft. Since the notebook market is highly competitive with costs shaved as much as possible, they pass these savings (from the cr@pware kickbacks) on to you, the customer, to lower the prices and get you to buy their cr@pware-laden notebook instead of the other mfgr's cr@pware-laden notebook. When they install Linux on that same hardware, they don't get any kickbacks from the cr@pware makers. So even though they're saving the $50 or so they'd normally pay to Microsoft, they're now not getting the $100 or so they'd get from the cr@pware makers. Plus, they might have to pay something to the Linux OS vendor to get them to help certify their OS for that hardware. So it ends up costing them more to sell you the hardware with Linux, and they raise the price accordingly. It's weird, but what can you do? It's a lot like those horrible mail-in rebates, or various other marketing gimmicks out there. You can get great prices on some things by taking advantage of the mail-in rebates (assuming they actually send it to you; many times they don't, but this is a separate point), possibly giving the mfgr zero profit on it or less; the reason they do this is because so many people forget to send in the rebate form, send it in too late, or make some mistake so they can disqualify them and not send the rebate, so they only pay out rebates to a small percentage of customers that are eligible, making the whole thing profitable. If you take advantage of the offer, you're basically profiting off of all the poor suckers who couldn't remember to get their rebate form in the mail on time. Similarly, by buying a Windows PC loaded with cr@pware and then wiping it and installing Linux, you (and Microsoft) are profiting off all the poor suckers who actually buy into the cr@pware makers' offers. |
| tracyanne May 08, 2012 11:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:You really don't need that as long as xampp/Friends Of Apache is available. Nice idea, but it's not included in the repositories, it's a seperate set of files that aren't controlled by the package manager. A XAMPP meta package would be more useful. |
| jezuch May 09, 2012 1:48 AM EDT |
Quoting:What an utterly stupid idea. What kind of idiot developer would want to run Unity, a UI that runs everything maximized? How nice of you to call me an idiot. I'm a developer and although I don't run Unity, I run everything maximized and would not have it any other way. |
| Fettoosh May 09, 2012 9:49 AM EDT |
Quoting: I hate to defend Dell, but there's a very sound economic reason they offer Linux at a higher cost than PCs with Windows ... @Khamul, I understand all of that, but considering all the costs of getting windows running properly, it is pretty hard to believe that the cost of pre-installing Windows isn't much much higher than Linux. Once a Linux version is certified, and that could be done with help of the community, how much of a cost it would be to clone a disk? No more than 5 minutes of very low labor. Besides, if for some reason their cost is unbearable, why not offer no OS machines? Dell never intended to support Linux, it was just playing games. Quoting:I'm sorry, but I detect more than a little anti-Dell bias. The only bias I have, and I don't hide it, is only due to their shenanigans documented on the Internet. I don't see the same type of games from any other OEM. HP offered Linux on some of their PCs long time ago, I actually bought two of them (EVo 500 in 1998) and they stopped right after that. They didn't play the same type of games Dell did and still at it. How many times Dell offered Linux on some models to go back withdrawing them shortly after citing lack of interest in Linux without even a little attempt at marketing it? Wouldn't you be biased? |
| tuxchick May 09, 2012 11:44 AM EDT |
Dell has been playing stupid Linux games for years. You need uber detective skills to find any desktop Linux machines on Dell.com, and every single page on the site has WE RECOMMENT TEH WINDOWSES banners all over the place. Their desktop Linux support is tepid and two-faced, and barely competent. Which is rather amusing, given their extensive and unapologetic line of Red Hat and SUSE servers. 3-4 years ago they pulled all of their laptop and desktop Linux machines for several months because they were retooling to a newer Ubuntu release. Yeah. Retooling. Had to upgrade all those big machines on the assembly line. The no-OS machines are sops to Redmond, gotta placate JabbaSoft. |
| JaseP May 09, 2012 12:55 PM EDT |
Dell's Linux machines are part of their bargaining process with M$. "We'll just start recommending Linux more," probably goes a little way when negotiating their OEM licenses with M$. Maybe not more than a couple of $0.01 per copy,... but when you ship that many machines, it adds up quick. |
| jdixon May 09, 2012 1:11 PM EDT |
> Dell's Linux machines are part of their bargaining process with M$. Bingo. Anyone want to bet Dell's Microsoft license is up for renewal later this year? |
| JaseP May 09, 2012 1:42 PM EDT |
@jdixon: And Win8 is coming out soon too... |
| lxerguest May 09, 2012 5:43 PM EDT |
I'm far from expert on server hardware,but an article a couple of years ago on how large numbers of Dell-built servers were going kaput because Dell tried to save a few pennies on the regulating capacitors was part of what gave me my anti-Dell bias. So home-built PC with Asus mainboard,Intel cpu, Samsung hard drive,Corsair memory,and Antec case/power supply, to go with my Samsung netbook were the recommendations I took, and haven't regretted since. Don't think it costed me more than Dell would have either.Not saying Dell is cr@p,but I was not exactly steered their way. |
| BernardSwiss May 09, 2012 11:37 PM EDT |
So, if I had (I don't) the spare moo-lah, which would actually be a better deal -- a Dell "Linux" netbook ('scuze me, "ultrabook") or laptop, or -- a similar Apple netbook or laptop, running Linux? |
| lxerguest May 10, 2012 12:28 PM EDT |
When you finally have the moolah,your choices may be greater,like Samsung Chromebooks with support for the latest powerful Intel Ivybridge cpus,coreboot open BIOS which resolves some of the hardware compatibility issues plaguing some Linux netbooks ,and with 5-second boot as a bonus. To me the choices of Dell or Apple you're restricting yourself to,seem to force a compromise between either dubious cost-slashing approach to quality but Linux support vs attention-to-detail quality but supporting a Linux-unfriendly patent-terrorizing high-profit-margin proprietary-wall-building company. On the other hand, with my powerful number-crunching , quiet, cool-running desktop due to last for many years,I may opt for a 1Kg 200$ long battery life ARM-based Genesi Linux smartbook of the type reviewed here by the Bodhi Linux guy,though a later more powerful generation perhaps. |
| tuxchick May 10, 2012 1:17 PM EDT |
Bernard, how about a nice machine from a real Linux OEM like System76 or ZaReason? |
| caitlyn May 10, 2012 1:20 PM EDT |
System76 and ZaReason both charge premium prices. In addition, if we want Linux to be able to have any prayer of competing on the desktop even in a small way we need major vendor/manufacturer/OEM support. |
| tuxchick May 10, 2012 2:24 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, they charge fair prices for solid, quality products and great service. Something the Tier 1 vendors don't do. Tier 1 vendors they spec everything to the absolute minimum, outsource their customer service, and live under Microsoft's shadow. The independent shops do a great job, and zero percent of their sales go to Redmond. |
| caitlyn May 10, 2012 4:24 PM EDT |
I'll repeat myself: if we want Linux to make any inroads in the consumer and corporate marketplace we need Tier 1 vendor support. No way around that. |
| jdixon May 10, 2012 5:31 PM EDT |
> So, if I had (I don't) the spare moo-lah, which would actually be a better deal A $250 or so 10" Acer netbook from Walmart reloaded with Linux. They don't seem to be on Walmart.com any more though, so time may be limited. |
| jdixon May 10, 2012 5:32 PM EDT |
> Caitlyn, they charge fair prices for solid, quality products and great service. Fair, perhaps. But if you can't afford it, it doesn't matter how fair it is. |
| gus3 May 10, 2012 5:44 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Reloaded, or pre-loaded? |
| tuxchick May 10, 2012 7:35 PM EDT |
[quote]
I'll repeat myself: if we want Linux to make any inroads in the consumer and corporate marketplace we need Tier 1 vendor support. No way around that.
[/quote} Which has what to do with Bernard's question? You're always dissing the independent Linux shops. |
| caitlyn May 10, 2012 7:40 PM EDT |
No, I am not dissing the independent, itty bitty boutique vendors. I am saying that if the goal is to get Linux into the mainstream they are not the ones to do it. As to Bernard's Apple vs. Dell question, since I have zero recent experience with Apple I am not qualified to answer that one. I'll point out that touting System76 or ZaReason doesn't answer that question either. |
| BernardSwiss May 10, 2012 8:27 PM EDT |
I have looked a couple of times at System76 and especially ZaReason. They didn't have quite what I wanted, last time I checked -- hopefully next time I look I'll be luckier. (Actually, I should look now -- it's been a while) I am much likelier to buy System76 or ZaReason than either Apple or Dell equivalent. But I'm still curious about the comparative merits -- with and without Linux -- of the Apple versus Dell hardware (also someone (friends &/or family) is sure to ask me, and I don't have an answer). |
| jdixon May 10, 2012 9:17 PM EDT |
> Reloaded, or pre-loaded? Reloaded, gus. The ones I've seen come with Windows 7 Starter Edition. I haven't looked into what would be involved in doing so, but the Acer Aspire One's have traditionally been doable. > But I'm still curious about the comparative merits -- with and without Linux -- of the Apple versus Dell hardware (also someone (friends &/or family) is sure to ask me, and I don't have an answer). I wish I knew more myself. Historically, Apple hardware has been of significantly higher quality than Dell hardware. But now that Apple is using essentially of the shelf x86 hardware, I'm not sure that's the case. It probably still is, as Apple is aiming for the "a premium product at a premium price" market, but it's not a given. The real question is how is service when it does break. Every product line has units that fail. A good company handles those failures for you. Bad ones don't. Dell is at best in the middle of the pack, some would argue the lower quarter. I've had both good and bad experiences with them (but if I'm buying a Dell for my personal use I usually buy off lease Dell equipment from http://www.dfsdirectsales.com/ where the warranty is virtually non-existent anyway). Apple is usually rated fairly highly, but again I've heard of both good and bad experiences. I suspect if you live near an Apple store, it makes things much easier. Personally, I prefer to buy off lease equipment or bare bones kits and save money. So far, I've had good luck doing so. The one new Dell I've purchased was my Mini 9, and it was on sale for $225 at the time, which was too good a deal to pass up. |
| Khamul May 10, 2012 11:38 PM EDT |
@jdixon: "Historically, Apple hardware has been of significantly higher quality than Dell hardware. But now that Apple is using essentially of the shelf x86 hardware" Is it? Sticking an Intel CPU in, in the place of a PPC CPU, doesn't suddenly make your HW "off the shelf". There's a lot more to HW than the CPU choice, like how you put it all together. In the notebook world, there's a huge difference in quality between, for instance, a Lenovo Thinkpad X or T series, and an HP (or insert some other cheap brand), even though they may have the exact same CPU and northbridge. The displays are different, the keyboards are different, the chasses are different (Thinkpads have a magnesium chassis), etc. |
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