I'm sorry, but the offensive part here is slamming T'So
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| Author | Content |
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| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 6:14 PM EDT |
When did it become wrong to question numbers because the subject is hateful and sensitive? Would you say, "390 million people were killed in the Holocaust? Sure. The Holocaust was horrible." Would you then attack somebody who questioned that number because it assumed that each of the 16 million or so Holocaust victims would have at least 20 descendants and they were killed before they could even live? Would you call that person a Holocaust apologist? T'So may or may not be misguided with regard to rape, but when did it become wrong to question numbers. Aren't you at least a little concerned by a study that contradicts 73% of the people it polls when the subject is their own consent? Sounds like "No, I'm sorry little girl. You're too stupid to know your own mind" That seems to me at least as insulting to women as anything T'So might have said. |
| caitlyn Nov 05, 2012 6:26 PM EDT |
Mr. Ts'o richly deserves every bit of criticism he deserves. If I responded to you the way I would like to I'd be out of here even faster that Andew Wyatt was earlier today. Read what T'so said again because you really, really, really didn't get it. From the other thread, where you could have joined: Nov 05, 2012 12:14 PM EDT What makes this even worse is that, in issuing his apology, Mr. T'so repeated the offensive claims. He says that he never said "rape is not a problem". That's true. He was also never accused of saying that. He is, in effect, saying the same things that Rep.Todd Aiken said, parsing rape into categories. When Mr. Aiken said what he did members of his own political party couldn't distance themselves from him and from his comments fast enough. Members of his own party asked him to drop out of the race he is in as well. What Valerie Aurora has called for regarding Mr. T'so is precisely the same sort of thing that has happened to Mr. Aiken and it's entirely appropriate. Ted T'so's "apology" is at: http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/57296-tso... Valerie Aurora's article is at: http://adainitiative.org/2012/10/open-source-software-open-t... ---- Huge clue: When someone says "No" it doesn't matter whether they had something to drink or not. No means no. If someone then forces himself on the other person and violates them it's rape, pure and simple. BTW, two reasons I am HUGELY OFFENDED BY YOUR POST: 1. Daughter of two Holocaust survivors and, the part most people on LXer don't know: 2. Rape victim/survivor Let me say with absolute certainty that you do not know what you are talking about and neither does Ted T'so. What he wrote was utterly indefensible. |
| JaseP Nov 05, 2012 6:35 PM EDT |
Dino, It's just bad all around. Questioning statistics isn't the dispute,... It's bringing the subject up in a Linux conference or forum to begin with,... It's not the appropriate place or topic. If the concern from women attending the events was personal safety and/or boorishness, the discussion of rape statistics didn't need to be brought up... A very concise, "We are all concerned with the feeling of and actual attention to personal safety of everyone attending [this, that, our] event and hope that everyone conducts themselves with courtesy, politeness and respect, while still enjoying themselves." ... Done... I also think that Garret is a bit over the top with his criticisms. I understand why he made them (calling out members, embodied specifically in Ts'o, for creating an environment that is unfriendly to women in the Linux community). It just seems a little late,... and a dollar short. |
| Ridcully Nov 05, 2012 6:44 PM EDT |
Ummmmm.......I just defended Caitlyn on another thread. I also suggested that threats and bullying do not occur from other members. I begin to wonder. I do know that Dinotrac has every right to put forward an opinion without being so savagely attacked. Look...rape of any sort is abhorrent. We all agree on that. I wonder if anyone on LXer would, as a result of Ts'o's unfortunate comments (whether misinterpreted or not) seriously state right now that Ts'o supports rape - full stop. In my humble opinion he does not and we are all simply pouring more fuel onto a fire that should be allowed to go out as fast as possible. I have tried to read the Ts'o sequence and found it exceptionally complex and confusing. I also received the impression that Ts'o was talking about statistics and of their nature they are NOT the black and white argument that is now taking place so violently here. I'd also refer any reader to the comments attached to the Varghese article because they are most instructive in that there are both for and against comments and at least one attacks Aurora and Garrett for being what I would call "muck-rakers". There are many valid opinions out there already. And as a final comment, this thread (like the one titled "What makes this even worse") is debating ethics which are so horribly complex and emotive that I'd like to see both of these threads rubbish tinned immediately. |
| Ridcully Nov 05, 2012 6:47 PM EDT |
Thankyou JaseP......you beat me to it. Fully support your remarks. |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 6:48 PM EDT |
I read the original email, the one that got everybody up in arms. The attack on that was pure BS. Nowhere in that did T'So say no doesn't mean no. On the other hand, he did cite a study where the researcher seemed unwilling to take women at their word. Again, "poor stupid little girls" should not interfere with what I want my studies to say. I have 3 daughters and was raised by a single mom and, for a while, an abusive drunk of a stepfauther. I am no friend of rapists. I am also no friend of those who think the end justifies the means, truth be damned. |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 6:49 PM EDT |
@caitlyn -- Please feel free to be incredibly offended by my post. Frankly, if that offends you, there is little that won't. |
| JaseP Nov 05, 2012 6:58 PM EDT |
Uhhh,... Dino, respectfully disagree with you there. For people who've been through traumatic experiences, like those, bringing up the subject, and going off tangentially regarding it, in a way that can be interpreted as diminishing the legitimacy of being a survivor of that experience, can be like picking a scab off a healing wound and pouring salt on it... That's the part Ts'o didn't get... Bringing it up again, two years after the fact is the part that Garrett doesn't get... |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 7:03 PM EDT |
@JaseP :Quoting:. It's bringing the subject up in a Linux conference or forum to begin with,. Well, you'll get no argument from me, and it would be nice to have some context around that poor lonely email, but it doesn't look like Ted initiated the subject so much as stepped his foot into a steaming pile just before placing it into his mouth. **update** I think I found the T'So post that got people going here: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/0003.html Not sure, but post certainly should invite some education./ |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 7:06 PM EDT |
@JaseP : I've been through a number of traumatic experiences personally, and via family members. My first wife was raped. My mother won't talk about it, but I would almost guarantee my stepfather engaged in the practice. I do not consider it to be a trivial or laughable topic. That said, yelling louder and screaming how offended you are doesn't make one right. |
| caitlyn Nov 05, 2012 7:15 PM EDT |
Matthew Garrett didn't bring it up again. Valerie Aurora did 10 days ago. If anyone doesn't know Valerie's family/personal history a look at her blog and website may be instructive. From Valerie Aurora's article: Quoting:Here’s what happened: In February 2011, on a public open source software mailing list, prominent open source software leader Theodore Y. Ts’o wrote that rape was impossible if both people were drunk enough, and that including several common kinds of rape in rape statistics could be “hyperbolic and misleading.” I won’t go into detail here because it’s pretty offensive, but the full text of two of his emails on the subject are archived here. The post dinotrac quotes isn't the whole picture. However, his attack on anti-harrassment policies is way, way, way off base and does get to Valerie's point about the FOSS community being hostile to women. Read the e-mail Sam Varghese linked. Ts'o is parsing rape into real and not-so-real just like Todd Aiken did. Sorry, once again, that is indefensible. Oh, and some of you will think hell has frozen over when I say this, but: Kudos to Sam Varghese for his excellent reporting in both of his articles on this issue. |
| JaseP Nov 05, 2012 7:28 PM EDT |
Quoting: ... My mother won't talk about it, ... Dino, ... you're own words ... & exactly my point. Different people have different ways of dealing with situations. But getting back to the real core of the issue that sparked Ts'o's comment... They were talking about ways to make the developer community events more friendly to women,...and Ts'o opens up with a diatribe that might remind one of Archie Bunker ("All in the Family") giving a keynote speech at a civil rights convention ... It essentially made Ts'o a poster child for what's wrong with the community. |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 7:34 PM EDT |
@caitlyn - Who was attacking anti-harrassment policies? |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 7:39 PM EDT |
@JaseP -- Well, T'So's posts were certainly ill-considered. What's really odd, if you read them, is that he starts off saying that even G-rated presentations might not be woman-friendly enough, that it's possible to be very offensive without resorting to semi-pornographic material. I would like to think that he was sorta kinda walking the path walked by the ACLU when they defend Klan members and Nazis, except that nothing in the couple of posts I've seen defends rapists. |
| Ridcully Nov 05, 2012 7:41 PM EDT |
CAN I PLEASE MAKE THIS POINT ONCE AGAIN: A DEBATE ON RAPE ETHICS HAS NO PLACE ON LXer .......OR AT LEAST AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. IT HAS BECOME EMOTIVE, ATTACKING, AND PERSONAL. ADDITIONALLY, PERSONAL BACKGROUND ASPECTS ARE BEING BROUGHT IN WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE IN ANY CASE. I would appreciate it if everybody took a deep breath, stood back, turned off......and quit both of these threads and let them lie........ |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 8:03 PM EDT |
@rid -- Not sure I agree with your primay pont from a TOS standpoint, given the originating context. But one place I really don't agree with you is the nature of the thread -- even @caitlyn's second post was constructive and civil. For that matter -- her first post was also constructive and civil up to a point. And -- hey, people are allowed to have strong feelings. In terms of internetland, she exercised considerable restraint. |
| Trobe524 Nov 05, 2012 8:40 PM EDT |
I read the original thread. I reas Ms. Aurora's article. I make the following observations: 1. Mr. T'so was commenting on the unclear definition of the word rape as used by some commenters and studies. 2. Mr. T'so never said that, No did not mean No. Nor did he say that rape was impossible while drunk. 3. Mr. T'so suggested a scenario where two people are drunk and engage in sex. He does not suggest that either of these hypothetical people has said no. What he did say is that being drunk, means they cannot legally concent. 4. Mr. T'so contrast the above scenario with a physical attach at knife point and forced sex and notes that both these are being labeled as rape, though their character is much different. 5. Mr. T'so made the point to question some of the statistics being thrown around in the thread. As far as I can tell, this does not make Mr. T'so a "rape appollogist" or anything similar. He was pointing out scare mongering. One can not effectively discuss an issue with hyperbole as the main course of discussion. And finally, if someone's feelings are hurt just discussing a topic, then I feel sorry for them. If a subject can not be discussed, then there is no possible resolution. |
| Ridcully Nov 05, 2012 8:51 PM EDT |
Okay Dino......the problem is that perception is in the eye of the beholder and from where I stood, what I described above is what I saw. I will admit freely that I used bold face and capitals because I was shouting......but that's because all I could see was a deep and emotive conflict between erst-while good friends, and if that's how I could see it, others would see it the same way. And the last thing any of us want, is for LXer to have any stain of any form upon it. On the TOS standpoint, I wouldn't like to argue one way or another, but as far as I personally am concerned, a rape ethics debate just isn't computing. And no, I'm not being a wowser on this. I have extremely strong views on rape and what I would like to do to a convicted rapist involves a very rusty, blunt knife with a serrate edge and soprano singing would be the least of his worries.....there !! I think I have expressed a very strong point of view in non-emotive and civil language. However, I say again, I wish for friendship's sake we could all put this matter to rest. I don't ever want to see it enter LXer's blogs again. As a candid comment, the other thread on this topic between Caitlyn and Tuxchick left me feeling embarrassed that I accidentally had seen very, very personal emails between two women and that they were not for general publication. As I said, perception is in the eye of the beholder. |
| jdixon Nov 05, 2012 8:56 PM EDT |
> Ts'o is parsing rape into real and not-so-real just like Todd Aiken did. Sorry, once again, that is indefensible. You mean the same way Whoopi Goldberg did? It's not just a FOSS problem, and not just a problem men have. |
| tuxchick Nov 05, 2012 9:11 PM EDT |
Good lord. Dino, Trobe524, is what Ts'o said really that unclear to you? It seems so. Or you're bored and stirring the pot. Or playing devil's advocate for some incredibly stupid and indefensible comments. At any rate I'm chiming in here just long enough to say you're way off base, and I don't care why, and if you really feel that way I don't care to talk to you. This isn't an idle thought exercise, as expressed by the odious Ts'o, but a painful and important subject that affects real people every day. It's not a joke, and it's not trivial, and I don't care to associate with people who have so little humanity. |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 9:26 PM EDT |
@tc -- If something you have read in my posts makes you feel that way, I cannot believe that you are reading them with clear eyes. That said, I am not going to let years of liking you evaporate over that. On a much brighter topic -- My wife just called a VERY COOL (geeky cool, anyway) event being held a couple of weeks from now at Fermilab -- the world's former top physics hot spot. Five physics will be engaging in a "physics slam" -- presenting complex topics in a clear and engaging way to the lay audience. Don't know how they choose a winner, but the audience has got to come out ahead on that one. |
| tuxchick Nov 05, 2012 9:34 PM EDT |
dino, for the first time I wish we had a 'block user' feature. |
| tracyanne Nov 05, 2012 9:34 PM EDT |
caitlyn wrote: Let me say with absolute certainty that you do not know what you are talking about and neither does Ted T'so. What he wrote was utterly indefensible. I'd like to reiterate that. What he [Ted T'so] wrote was utterly indefensible. |
| tuxchick Nov 05, 2012 9:43 PM EDT |
My last thought-- if anyone is seriously wondering what is wrong with Ts'os comments, just read the thread. It's all there. Oh I know, reading before commenting is all backwards and wrong, but I expect some will find it informative http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/index.html And Garrett's blog, and Valerie's-- it's all there. |
| Fettoosh Nov 05, 2012 10:09 PM EDT |
I am glad for being speechless on this subject. |
| dinotrac Nov 05, 2012 11:08 PM EDT |
Sigh. So much heat. So little light. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 05, 2012 11:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:Sigh. Make that a deep, deep sigh. Some people are trying to raise concerns about what the facts are/how to determine what the facts are and how these rather slippery facts are presented. The other side are interpreting that as an insensitive attack on their feelings and perhaps their personal experience, or even their motives -- in effect. as an attack on their legitimacy and/or their legitimate concerns. The opposing parties appear to be talking past each other. And one side is not listening to what the other side is actually saying, while simultaneously complaining that the other side isn't listening to them. This isn't a discussion, it's a Rorschach Test. In a mirror-maze. |
| Ridcully Nov 05, 2012 11:57 PM EDT |
@BernardSwiss.......Amen to that. |
| tracyanne Nov 06, 2012 12:23 AM EDT |
Well Bernard if there is no consent it is rape... no matter how drunk either or both parties are. Ted T'so is utterly and irrevocably wrong to even suggest that anything different is the case. Whatever else anyone is attempting to discover, define, justify, or discuss, Ted T'so is simply wrong to suggest that rape can't occur when both parties are drunk. |
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