important problem, slightly misleading terminology

Story: Removing/Disabling The Semantic Deskop in KDE4 (and firing up Thunderbird) Part 1Total Replies: 35
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mfioretti

Feb 09, 2014
1:33 AM EDT
You should say "package" in several points in which you wrote "file". This is wrong, for example:

"Akonadi" is not just a single file like KMail or KWallet, but is a whole "family of files"

It should be "Akonadi is not just a single __package__ etc..." in order to not confuse newbies, which should really read this article
Ridcully

Feb 09, 2014
1:56 AM EDT
@mfioretti......if that's the only criticism you have, I'm more than happy. Try writing something like this and you are bound to slip on summat. The most important thing I would say back to you is that where it counts, there can be no doubt in any one's mind as to my meaning.. Look at the paragraph directly under Fig 2:

Quoting:The results of such a search are shown in Figure 2 above. This clearly shows that "Akonadi" is not just a single file like KMail or KWallet, but is a whole "family of files" and all are related to the Personal Information Management system. If Akonadi is to be wholly removed from the operating system, all of those files have to be deleted. The problem that is now faced is that each of the Akonadi related files has several to a multitude of dependencies and just selecting the main file "akonadi" will produce a warning similar to that shown in Figure 3 below.


That defines the situation completely, without any doubt. I don't think "newbies" would have a problem.
nmset

Feb 09, 2014
4:55 AM EDT
Nepomuk is easy to disable through the GUI in systemsettings.

kwallet can use an empty master password, no need to remove anything, no password dialog is then shown when opening the wallet.

Akonadi is a backbone of KDE, don't even think of getting rid of it.

Finally, be sure KDE devs read reported bugs only.
Ridcully

Feb 09, 2014
5:07 AM EDT
Quoting:Akonadi is a backbone of KDE, don't even think of getting rid of it.


And that, nmset, is the problem......it should NOT be, especially for KMail......However, you can block the Akonadi server by preventing it from starting.....then you leave it in place, but impotent. But more importantly, the semantic desktop should be an "add-on" not a basic part of the desktop, and it should be easily possible for any KDE user to disable it. Currently, you can easily disable Nepomuk.....Akonadi is a different matter, but it is possible to do so if you are not afraid of a little editing.

Also, I am not the only one who is blocking the semantic desktop operations centred on Akonadi.......and apparently from all reports, KDE4 runs faster, more efficiently and.......the hdd is no longer threatened by hyperactivity.

As regards KWallet, I am fully familiar with the trick of using an "empty password" to control KWallet....that is NOT the problem. The problem is that once enabled, KWallet then begins to intrude on the functions of other independent software running on the KDE desktop. You'll find yourself browsing on the internet and suddenly KWallet demands a password before you can do something else. And I am NOT the only one that has found this very, very nasty situation......I believe Tuxchick has also reported similar findings.

The biggest problem of all is that the KDE developers had a darn good DE when they took over KDE3.5......instead of doing what the Trinity developers have done, they went down a very different path. Quite honestly, I am becoming very tired of KDE4 and what I consider the mess it has become....If ever openSUSE picks up Trinity as a fast version of KDE, there is little doubt I'd transfer.
cr

Feb 09, 2014
9:54 AM EDT
> If ever openSUSE picks up Trinity as a fast version of KDE, there is little doubt I'd transfer.

Next best thing: Trinity binaries are available for OpenSUSE 11.4, 12.2, 12.3; Trinity happily runs amidst KDE4 (and Gtk/Gnome) libs and launches some or all of those KDE4 apps (and Gtk2/3, Gnome2/3 apps) should you desire. See: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/
jazz

Feb 09, 2014
2:31 PM EDT
Thank you for your excellent article!

The official webpage for nepmuk project is here: http://nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org/

The full name of the project is "NEPOMUK - The Social Semantic Desktop", whatever that means. The authors are unable to explain what this project is all about. What they publish on the webpage is meaningless:

"NEPOMUK brings together researchers, industrial software developers, and representative industrial users, to develop a comprehensive solution for extending the personal desktop into a collaboration environment which supports both the personal information management and the sharing and exchange across social and organizational relations."

Nepomuk is a failed academic research project sponsored by European Union that basically achieved nothing in 8 years. Our KDE friends somehow by mistake included it in KDE4, the use cases they put up on kde wiki are childish, and they are still to explain why my personal computer needs to be a collaboration environment for anybody.

As an observation, 8 years ago Linux desktop market share was under 2%, today is also under 2%. Somehow "the social semantic desktop" functionality in KDE didn't inspire anybody to switch to Linux.
JaseP

Feb 09, 2014
2:51 PM EDT
Don't believe the 2% figure. That's propaganda. MS's own market research put it at 5-7% back in something like 2006 or so, if I recall correctly (part of the Halloween documents). The 2% figure discounts duel boots, browsers with spoofed ID strings, machines sold with Windows licenses (assumed to be running that forever), etc. In the USA, the figure is probably closer to 3-4%,... worldwide,... the 5-7% figure.

That said, I deactivate as much of nepomuk/akonadi as is practical on my Kubuntu 12.04 installs. I don't use the plasma desktops other than the standard desktop with widgets, and get very PO'd when I try using a netbook that automatically switches to, the totally useless, KDE "netbook" interface (I don't like it when developers make assumptions,... we all know what happens when you "assume.").
Ridcully

Feb 09, 2014
4:35 PM EDT
Thankyou Jazz.....I don't go looking for such comments but they are very nice to receive, especially when you challenge "conventional wisdom of the establishment". It always feels like you are sawing off a tree branch while actually sitting on it, so thankyou again. It also looks like many others feel a similar way.

I took a quick look at that link you provided.....and .....there is a definitive name for a style or type of English writing (bombastic ?) in which apparently erudite words are used to confuse, awe, impress and give the impression that the author is saying enormously important things while actually saying nothing at all. That paragraph was written by an absolute master.
blue_bullet

Feb 09, 2014
8:18 PM EDT
Timely article for me. Several days ago I had to activate akinadoserver to get kalarm to work for me b/c qdbus no longer works in the cron environment in Linux Mint 16 KDE. I have changed some of my cron routines that worked in LM 11-15 to now use kalarm. Since I had the server running I have been trying kmail activate kwallet in the process. After reading your piece I think I will uninstall kmail/kontact and stick with thunderbird. It has served me well for 10 years, ties in nicely with gmail, and works just fine in KDE 4.12. Thanks for the article. I hope the KDE team takes your suggestions seriously.

Many things are now tangled together in linux which was not the original design notion unix developers had in mind. I am still a major fan of KDE b/c it has been designed to be highly customizable. That is why you may get some attention.

I think nmset is correct in saying akonadi is deeply woven into KDE.
Ridcully

Feb 09, 2014
9:15 PM EDT
Yes, blue-bullet, I believe you are absolutely correct. My summation is that the KDE4 developers have woven the Akonadi-Nepomuk "monster" so tightly into the KDE package, you simply cannot remove it as you can any other software package.....The best you can do is disable it. Worse still, my observations suggest that KMail's data has now been made into an Akonadi database and it is rather different in its structures from what it used to be. My research showed me that I could not just manipulate its files with a file manager as you once were able to do - because if you did, KMail would cease to recognise where the files were, or worse still, you lost them completely.

If anyone now asks me, my answer will be quite bluntly: Disable Akonadi-Nepomuk in order to get a faster desktop, less CPU load, more memory, more disk-space and far, far less work on the hdd itself. Then, dump KWallet and KMail and load Thunderbird or Claws......Look for Part 2 coming soon I hope.

However, it is reaching the stage where so much damage has now been done by this development direction that I'd also suggest leaving KDE4 altogether and moving perhaps to Trinity or to Xfce. I haven't yet played around with those two DE's.....but it's going to happen, sooner or later.
frankiej

Feb 10, 2014
12:39 AM EDT
Quoting:Worse still, my observations suggest that KMail's data has now been made into an Akonadi database and it is rather different in its structures from what it used to be.


Mail is still stored in maildir format. The Akonadi database is a cache for that data and is what Kmail is using rather than going to the filesystem itself. Based on your observations I would assume it doesn't scan that directory structure changes, everything has to be done through something that talks to Akonadi.

Nevertheless, as I commented in an earlier post, I have had a problem with Akonadi mismanaging my maildir folders and losing email hence me no longer using it.
Ridcully

Feb 10, 2014
2:03 AM EDT
@frankiej.....Many, many thanks for your very helpful comment. I didn't express myself very well.......mea culpa. I knew that the actual email files were the same, but somehow KMail would NOT register anything if you shifted the files yourself and I simply assumed that something other than the files themselves in the mail directory structures was preventing any manipulations I wanted to carry out. Somehow KMail did not respond as usual to anything I did with those files.

The way you have now described (if I understand you correctly) is much better and I thank you very much for opening the door. Okay, here's how I now would see it courtesy of your comment:

The old maildir system is there, but it is being read into an Akonadi cache first and KMail is now compelled to read from the Akonadi cache rather than be permitted to read its own files. If that is correct, it is incredibly wasteful of computing resources and unbelievably clumsy. When you think about it, the mail has to be translated into an sql database, then KMail has to re-translate that sql database back into conventional email files in order to display them. But it then gets even more complex when you start to think about incoming and outgoing mail and how KMail refers them to the cache or the maildir storage. Use KMail and you begin to rev up the CPU markedly.

Please have a look at what I have written in the paragraph above.....it fits very closely with what happened when I was working with KMail in openSUSE 12.1 and KDE4.7 . KMail in openSUSE 11.4 and KDE4.6 (which is what I am using right now) acts normally/traditionally, KMail in KDE4.7 does not.

Both of us would agree, I think, that Akonadi's implementation is the key to the entire "mess". The way I would put this now is that unless Akonadi knows about the changes, KMail does not either. I played with folders and directories for some time and all I succeeded in doing was losing mail. I have to ask myself, why did the KDE4 developers choose such a convoluted method of applying the semantic desktop ? Surely, as I suggested in the article, it would have been possible for Akonadi to have been kept totally separate and allow it to constantly "peek into the maildir storage and thereby keep KMail intact and simple......? Assuming the above is correct, it once more underlines the need for far more CPU and hdd activity. I am singularly unimpressed.

More and more I am becoming convinced that the only way ahead for a KDE user is to block Akonadi and dump KMail altogether.
Ridcully

Feb 10, 2014
2:42 AM EDT
Just a quick general bit of info. I came across this item on the web:

https://launchpad.net/~pali/+archive/kdepim-noakonadi

It appears that someone has become sick and tired of Akonadi and its problems and has produced a package for Ubuntu called KDEPIM. This package contains:

* kaddressbook * kalarm * kjots * kmail * knode * kontact * korganizer

And is apparently totally independent from Akonadi.....talk about having your cake and eating it too. I have NO idea as to whether or not this works, but am reporting it purely because it seems some KDE users are getting so annoyed about Akonadi that they are taking real steps to remove its activity completely.
nmset

Feb 10, 2014
4:19 AM EDT
What a rant ! Fortunately, the GNU/LInux ecosystem offers lots of choices. KDE devs won't rebuild the house to the taste of every one who rents it.
Ridcully

Feb 10, 2014
4:54 AM EDT
If that's what you believe it is, nmset, fine with me, but I think it goes much deeper than a "rant". Frankly, I've reached the stage where I don't care what the KDE devs do any more. Like you say, FOSS offers lots of choices in DM's and if I don't like KDE any more, I can move to something else that suits me better. The problem is, that I do care that such destructive directions (as I see them) have been applied to KDE. To be perfectly honest, if I was advising anyone as to a version of KDE to use, I'd strongly suggest KDE4.6, and to download a copy of openSUSE 11.4......that was the last version of KDE4 that actually worked well for the user.

And one last teensy weensy thing......You may recall that in my first article on KMail, I strongly suggested that it had now been redesigned for huge collaborative networks....DO please go up this thread and read the quote from the Nepomuk site in Jazz' article above. Apart from the fact that the whole thing is almost meaningless, it DOES indicate that I was dead right. KMail is now an item for a huge network - forget the small user......Does that turn me off KDE ? Dead right !! And I was one of its most staunch advocates.
jdixon

Feb 10, 2014
6:22 AM EDT
> Fortunately,, KDE devs won't rebuild the house to the taste of every one who rents it.

Recompiling to remove a dependency is rebuilding the house now? But yeah, that's the attitude that convinced me that KDE 4 was never going to be for me.
nmset

Feb 10, 2014
8:47 AM EDT
>the whole thing is almost meaningless

I use it almost on a daily basis, meaningless ? No, resistance to change is dreadful . As I said, I can understand why many will stay with other OSs.

Really, I see akonadi as something transparent, nepomuk as an add-on which can be disabled if one prefers, kwallet as something that can be set transparent by an empty password (I do it to be honest, and it never pops up again in any situation, be it for mail retrieval, web surfing...).

KDE devs have not forced anything through the users' throats, they are still free to choose. You seem to refuse to choose and want to force one view on every one, that's what is hard to understand.

Ridcully

Feb 10, 2014
9:18 AM EDT
Oh for goodness sakes nmset, read my first paragraph again. I do not force, I suggest. Also in that paragraph, I made it quite clear that I retain choice to do as I wish and if I do not wish to stay on KDE then I will move. I only insist that I have simplicity, efficiency and security. I have also simply put the facts as I know them in front of the readers - it's hard evidence.

Quoting:You seem to refuse to choose and want to force one view on every one, that's what is hard to understand.


And let me make it quite clear: I do NOT appreciate your clumsy attempt in your last paragraph to attribute things to me that do NOT appear in my posts. I have indicated in my first paragraph almost directly above that I retain my choice to move to a new DE if I wish. Moreover, I have never indicated or implied that I wish to force one view on everybody. May I suggest you withdraw your statement.

With respect to the KDE devs, and with due respect to you, I believe you are completely wrong. The KDE devs have taken away choice and done so quite deliberately. First they have removed choice on how the password is stored in KMail; second they have imposed the use of KWallet on security; third they have imposed the semantic desktop in such a way that if it is disabled by user choice, then the user also loses KMail. I've covered these aspects in the article and there's no need for me to spell it out again.

No-one is being forced by me to either use or not use KDE4....I have simply given my concepts of the matter as discovered during actual use of a computer. If you do not like them, that's your choice. And there are others like you who seem to enjoy the semantic desktop. Fine with me - go for it. I don't like the semantic desktop. Well, that's my choice, and there are many like me who feel the same.....Are you trying to enforce your choice on them as well as on me ?

This argument is pointless.
jdixon

Feb 10, 2014
9:24 AM EDT
> No, resistance to change is dreadful

Resistance to change is a normal human reaction, and is the default state for most people.

> KDE devs have not forced anything through the users' throats

Well, not quite, no. But only because you have the option not to use KDE. Many user seem to have chosen that option.

> You seem to refuse to choose and want to force one view on every one...

A user wants the OPTION to disable a new "feature", and you think he's the one trying to force something on others?



frankiej

Feb 10, 2014
10:58 AM EDT
@Ridcully... I only have one last comment on your rewritten paragraph, I promise :). But aside from this comment I think you are spot on.

Quoting: permitted to read its own files


My understanding of the KDEPIM architecture is that the individual PIM programs (kmail, kaddressbook, korganizer, etc...) no longer have their own files. Akonadi is the only thing that stores and manages the PIM data.

Basically, kmail has no understanding (other than for an import) of what a maildir or mbox file is. It doesn't know what a pop server is or what an imap server is. It only knows what Akonadi resources are and that is how it gets access to those. Akonadi is the abstraction layer if you will.

Why did they do this? It gives access to the PIM data to any program on the machine in a common way. Thus both korganizer and the calendar widget talk to Akonadi to get calendar information. In theory someone could write another email client and just have it use Akonadi and it will have access to the same email resources that kmail has. Changing something in one program is automatically reflected in the other. In Gnome the Evolution Data Server is providing similar functionality for at least contacts and calendar, I don't know about mail.

So while I understand their vision, it certainly does make things more complex if someone just wants to have a simple functional mail program. I have not ever been able to treat Akonadi as being transparent (I'm not saying it cannot be, it just wasn't my experience). So I have moved on.
frankiej

Feb 10, 2014
11:30 AM EDT
Quoting: https://launchpad.net/~pali/+archive/kdepim-noakonadi


After reading up on that, it looks like it should work fine. The developer took the pieces of KDEPIM 4.3 and 4.4 to create that (Akonadi migration started in 4.4 with kaddressbook).

After scanning the git commits I am making the assumption that the developer is not attempting to backport any non-akonadi functionality/fixes that appeared in later versions, but if folks thought Kmail was stable in 4.4 then it probably is not an issue.
nmset

Feb 10, 2014
12:51 PM EDT
>the semantic desktop in such a way that if it is disabled by user choice, then the user also loses KMail

That's not true, kmail still works if you disable Nepomuk in systemsettings, as least on my laptop.
Ridcully

Feb 10, 2014
4:47 PM EDT
Ummm.....nmset, you again miss the point. Nepomuk is NOT the basis problem, Akonadi is. Nepomuk is a program that adds meta-tags to your data files etc. so that Akonadi can find them and add them to its database.

I agree with you totally: disabling Nepomuk does more or less nothing to KMail's essential operations, other than KMail then warns you that some of its capabilities may not work. But the other side of the semantic desk-top "coin" so to speak, is Akonadi and it is the program that sets up and controls the server and search side. I strongly suspect/believe that Akonadi's activities are the ones that cause excessive CPU usage, hdd activity, etc. etc. and if you disable Akonadi, KMail becomes inoperable. That's it in a nutshell.....try stopping the Akonadi server as I explain how to do in the article and you'll find out the "hard way". Then you can reverse it and get your KMail back. But the KDE team have left no other options left open to you: You want KMail ? Okay, fine, but you MUST also have Akonadi running. Read the discussion in this thread between frankiej and myself - you'll soon appreciate why.



@ frankiej......Again, my sincere thanks. All I can say at this point is: Where were you when I was writing the Part 1 article ? It would have been so helpful because for the first time I have finally put some very confusing bits of the jigsaw into place. Your explanation thoroughly fits the facts as I knew them and additionally allows me to understand, for the first time, exactly why this method has been chosen by the KDE team. I can very much appreciate the "subtlety" of the KDE team's approach and procedures, but I certainly do not approve of them. Messy and over complex are my final thoughts on the matter. I shall be referring back to this thread in Part 2 and in particular this dialogue between you and I because your text is rather crucial if an outsider is to come to an understanding of the semantic desktop construction.

KMail has therefore been "emasculated" in one sense - it can do nothing on its own without the Akonadi database. And your comments on the KDEPIM sequence also fit pretty much what I know already. KDE4.6 still allows KMail to run traditionally, but all further KDE4.x, no.

I'd make one last comment here......I am sure you can STILL get openSUSE 11.4 with KDE4.6 and even though Akonadi is enabled, it seems to do little or nothing and I have never bothered to disable it.....If it ain't broke, why fix it ? If enough people want this earlier, "normal KDE" and plug into the Evergreen project, there will be strong impetus for the project to keep openSUSE 11.4 supported for much longer. But honestly, more and more I am coming to the position that for the future, KMail is a "gone goose", and KDE4 has now been made much less attractive for me as a DE.....Forgeddit and find another DM, and then an email client that will perform in the traditional sense......Hello Thunderbird and Claws.
TxtEdMacs

Feb 10, 2014
7:46 PM EDT
Hmm M. Set In His Ways,

Tell me were you one of those obtuse individuals that screamed at Ubuntu for not making KDE 4.0 a default when it was first released?

You are so persistent misinterpreting Mr. Ridicules statements citing how easy it is to turn off Nepomuk when he has stated repeatedly that "transparent" Akonadi is the core problem.

I doubt KDE has the funds, but you remind me of that verity: an individual cannot understand what endangers their paycheck. Otherwise you are a shill as I am. [But I do it for MS, they pay well when they pay, which is not often.]

YBT
gus3

Feb 10, 2014
7:50 PM EDT
IOW, Txt, they still haven't ponied up the dough?

When they do, it's gonna be HUGE!
TxtEdMacs

Feb 10, 2014
8:03 PM EDT
My Dearest August Gus III,

Just a pittance in pence, no more such a pity ...

YBT
jdixon

Feb 10, 2014
9:25 PM EDT
Maybe you should contact the new CEO directly with your grievance, Txt.
nmset

Feb 11, 2014
4:10 PM EDT
>Nepomuk is a program that adds meta-tags to your data files etc. so that Akonadi can find them and add them to its database.

Totally wrong. Nepomuk looks at Akonadi to find data from mail, calendars, notes... to index. File tags have nothing to do with akonadi. Just switch off Nepomuk, your file tags are no longer accessible. Concerning system resources, Nepomuk could consume much when it's virtuoso database is empty, i.e, recreated, certainly not alonadi. Nowadays, in such a situation, nepomuk will be a CPU burner in idle time only.

>the semantic desktop in such a way that if it is disabled by user choice, then the user also loses KMail >Nepomuk is NOT the basis problem, Akonadi is.

Semantic desktop : this is Nepomuk's functionalities, not Akonadi.
Ridcully

Feb 11, 2014
6:40 PM EDT
@nmset........I'm no longer debating. Go read this:

http://userbase.kde.org/Nepomuk

I would however add that there is some truth in what you are suggesting. The complexity of the Akonadi Nepomuk Strigi situation is such that I have no doubt there are errors in some of the picture I am trying to assemble. Even in the link I gave you above, it is extremely difficult to understand exactly what is going on and they themselves spin you off to different articles to try to explain aspects of what they are doing. You WILL find web articles describing Nepomuk as producing meta-tags:

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=230049

and there is so much conflicting information about this unbelievably complex desktop that one nearly throws one's hands in the air and consigns the whole lot to perdition.

You might also like to look at this article which is one of the best I have seen so far as it includes the third essential package which contributes to the semantic desktop, Strigi.

http://thomasmcguire.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/akonadi-nepomu...

A better picture, I think, possibly, maybe, is that Akonadi has the database but does not know what the heck to do with it. Strigi acts like a "spider" and trawls through your desktop and finds data to feed to Nepomuk. (Strigi is disabled when you disable Nepomuk)...Nepomuk sorts it and collates it and presents the search summary you require. In that sense only, you can say that Nepomuk is the sematic desktop, but I repeat, Nepomuk is only one side of the coin, Akonadi is the other. The Nepomuk half is useless without the Akonadi half, and simply disabling Nepomuk does NOT stop Akonadi from continuing to assemble its cache....both must be disabled if the entire "semantic system" is to be stopped.
frankiej

Feb 12, 2014
12:33 AM EDT
Quoting: The Nepomuk half is useless without the Akonadi half


That isn't quite true. Nepomuk does not need Akonadi nor does Akonadi need Nepomuk.

Nepomuk is the core of the semantic desktop as nmset has been saying. But Akonadi and Strigi are both components of it as well. In fact, I believe (I have nothing to back this up) that Akonadi would not exist if it weren't for the concept of the semantic desktop.

Nepomuk can exist and be useful without either Akonadi or Strigi. It is at its heart a database full of metadata. Other programs feed this metadata into the Nepomuk database and queries can be made against.

The most common way that Nepomuk is populated is via Strigi which will search our home directory (or whatever you configure) and populate Nepomuk with basic metadata that it can obtain from those files. But once again, Strigi doesn't have to be active to use Nepomuk.

Another way to populate Nepomuk is when other applications use it to store metadata. Gwenview for example will store your photo tags in the Nepomuk database. If you have Nepomuk disabled you cannot tag your photos in Gwenview. I think Amarok has or is going to be using Nepomuk to store a lot of its metadata.

Then we get to Akonadi. Akonadi serves a dual purpose. One half of its purpose is to manage PIM data. It manages it, caches it in its own database, and provides an API to PIM or PIM related applications that need to get at that data (e.g. Kmail getting to an Akonadi resource for an IMAP server). The other purpose of Akonadi is to take all of that metadata about the PIM information and automatically feed it to Nepomuk which will store it in its database.

I have run Nepomuk with Akonadi disabled because I was using Thunderbird. The only functionality missing is that I don't get the metadata for my mail, contacts, and calendar (Lightning) in my Nepomuk database. I have also run Akonadi (and Kmail) without Nepomuk enabled. The functionality that I do not have in that situation is I cannot search my email and my contacts are not auto-completed.
Fettoosh

Feb 12, 2014
1:21 AM EDT
This link might be of help to those who want to understand the architecture of Akonadi and how it functions.

This link might also be helpful

Ridcully

Feb 12, 2014
4:17 AM EDT
I stand corrected Frankiej...no problems; Like I said, I have now read so much and inhaled so many contradictory views on this blankety blank "thing" that I am as I said above, ready to throw my arms in the air and just scream "Lemme out of here".

When I began this saga, I thought I knew what was going on.......the more I got into it, the less I knew and the more confused I got. You have helped enormously. It was not until I got the link to the Thomas McGuire article that I finally began to understand the concepts of Strigi.......it's a "spider" that trawls your desktop and finds things to feed to Nepomuk, as I understand it...... but Nepomuk is not dependent on Strigi........Again, here's another bit. You say above that "Nepomuk is at its heart, a database of metadata".....whereas McGuire indicates its a library of "standard ontologies".......Now both may be correct, but is it any wonder when there are so many conflicting word definitions that somebody trying to thread a path through this horrible chaos goes slightly nutty ? Huh ?...Exits stage left in hysteria and gibbering.......attendants with white coats and straight jacket are waiting :-)

The only things I am sure of at this stage is that "lots of user don't like it" and give their reasons. Eventually, as I am doing, you begin to ask :

Is all of this fuss worth it ? The KDE devs are going to do what they like and their goal is centered totally on the polishing of the semantic desktop goal.....They aren't going to change just because a little rabbit in Australia gets all caustic and upset - he'll just be ignored and they will do as they darn well please !!

So, really, the question I should ask is: Is KDE4 the desktop manager I want to continue to use ? Does it fit my requirements ? Would I be better off cutting my losses and moving to another DM ? That last question is becoming more and more entrenched as the days go by. It's very, very upsetting, but if KDE4 no longer does what I personally want from a DM, why try to force it into the shape I want ? Just move on and find something that does do what I want. Would Trinity be much better as is being suggested strongly on the other thread attached to this article ? It possibly would be....I could keep a version of KMail and it is based on dear old KDE3.5 but vastly updated and improved.....And it DOESN'T have a semantic desktop to annoy the heck out of me.......or KWallet for that matter. And there are other options as well.......For the moment though, my system runs perfectly and I am very content with KDE4.6

Now there's a thought......I wonder if you could put KDE4.6 on top of openSUSE 13.1 ? Naaaah.....forgeddit.

jdixon

Feb 12, 2014
7:24 AM EDT
> hbut is it any wonder when there are so many conflicting word definitions...

Well, when people are making up terms to describe something new, different people often make up different terms.

> Is all of this fuss worth it ?

IMO, no. But YMMV. :)

Ridcully

Feb 12, 2014
8:45 AM EDT
Hi Jdixon......very true as regards your last statement over mileage may vary. One does get a bit despondent/depressed over the fact that you think you are belting your head against a whacking great establishment brick wall......but, somebody gotta.

Even if it appears that no-one in the KDE4 camp is reading or listening to what is going on with respect to both these articles and these threads, and nothing appears to be happening........Don't you believe it !!!! Oh yes, they ARE reading and yes, they KNOW and probably don't like it much, but are saying nothing. But then that's the great thing about the world of FOSS.....you are free to express your opinions and make your choices for yourself......Currently they have chosen to put themselves on a path that I believe tends to disadvantage the small stand alone user who needs a simple, unencumbered, fast desktop; or at least that's how I see it. But that's their choice, bless them, and may it work for them. There's plenty of big businesses and governments out in that world.

Perhaps someone, somewhere in the ivory tower of the KDE4 team will have taken the information in these articles and threads on board and sooner or later something will happen that will bring the single individual user back into the fold. But if it doesn't happen......what the heck !! KDE4 continues its moves to the industrial/research/commercial/government large scale networks and that's that......And we mere mortals who just want simplicity, speed and reliability will find that there is plenty around to satisfy those needs........and once more there will be mass migration away from KDE....The picture I am painting is of course, mere hypothesis, but it could happen and KDE will become a DE that is only meant for the "big boys" with massive networks......Fine......if that's what the devs want, so let it be. But it's certainly not a picture that appeals to me. Rather sad really, when you think about the fact that KDE was originally an individual user desktop manager.
Fettoosh

Feb 12, 2014
11:14 AM EDT
@Ridcully,

I have been totally quiet while following this subject because last time we discussed it we reached to the same conclusion you outlined so eloquently in your last comment.

In my opinion, I believe the KDE developers are set in their minds to keep the path they chose for KMail, and PIM in general, mainly because of their strong belief that desktops and even other small computer devices (Phones, Tablets, Netbooks) are no longer used to just manage files, but rather mostly intertwined information stored locally and on cloud storage. Whether the information belongs to multiple users or to an individual, it makes no difference, semantic search is required and essential to effectively accomplish that.

In terms of using too much resources, that was very true in the past. I recently activated KMail to read my mail on Google. I am running KDE 4.12.1 on a Toshiba NB205 Netbook with dual Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N280 @ 1.66GHz with 1GB of memory only. I have Nepomuk Server turned off but Akonadi running and I have no issue with resources. Heck, Firefox uses 25% of CPU most of the time and I hardly notice Akonadi running in System Guard Monitor.

The KDE developers did a tremendous job on improving performance in both Akonadi & Nepomuk in their latest releases. I believe most of the complains you found on the Internet were about earlier versions, which I agree they were in pretty bad shape and was the reason I wasn't using KMail before.

frankiej

Feb 12, 2014
11:47 AM EDT
Quoting: You say above that "Nepomuk is at its heart, a database of metadata".....whereas McGuire indicates its a library of "standard ontologies"......


Yes, "metadata" was entirely my own way of describing it lacking a better, more official description.

Quoting: > Is all of this fuss worth it ?

IMO, no. But YMMV. :)


Completely agree with that :)

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