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Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

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By Jake Edge
June 8, 2011

The news that Oracle was proposing to donate the OpenOffice.org (OOo) code to the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) came as a surprise to many, though it probably shouldn't have. Many optimistically hoped that Oracle's plan to turn OOo over to an "organization focused on serving that broad constituency [the OOo community] on a non-commercial basis" meant that it would turn to The Document Foundation (TDF), which forked OOo into LibreOffice (LO) in September 2010, as the obvious repository for the code. But, for a number of reasons, that was probably never a very likely outcome; some discussions evidently took place between Oracle and the TDF, but there seems to be enough bad blood—along with licensing differences—that another home for OOo was sought.

Oracle's contribution

Oracle proposed OOo as an Apache Incubator project on June 1 with a post to Apache's incubator-general mailing list. The original posting from Oracle VP Luke Kowalski was done as an .odt file, which made it hard to comment on, so Greg Stein posted the text of the proposal. Shortly thereafter, it was turned into a wiki page which has been updated to reflect the discussions about the proposal.

Other than the proposal itself, and a press release with statements from Oracle, Apache, and IBM, there has been little said by Oracle about this move. IBM, on the other hand, has been quite vocal, with three separate, very favorable blog posts (Rob Weir, Ed Brill, and Bob Sutor) that came out more-or-less at the same time as the proposal. This seemingly coordinated response didn't necessarily sit well with some in the OOo/LO community, but TDF had enough notice to put out its own statement that was conciliatory, if disappointed.

Basically, Oracle has signed a license grant to the ASF covering a list of files that make up OOo. That allows the ASF to release the code under the Apache License. Oracle will also be transferring the OOo trademarks to the foundation, though there is a typo in the current transfer ("OpenOffice" rather than "OpenOffice.org") that is currently being addressed. There are some questions whether the listed files are actually all of those needed to build OOo, but the belief is that Oracle will work with ASF to address any deficiencies.

Apache incubation

The license and trademark grant is a "done deal", by and large, but where things go from there are still a bit up in the air. Apache has an "incubation" process that is meant to help new (to Apache) projects come up to speed on how Apache projects work and are governed. In addition, the incubation process is meant to allow time to handle any licensing issues with the code (as all Apache projects must be licensed under the Apache license), as well as to determine if the project has attracted enough of a community to be a viable project going forward.

As spelled out in the Incubation Policy, the project must have a "champion" who is an ASF member. For OOo, Sam Ruby will be the champion. In addition, there needs to be at least one "mentor" from the ASF for an incubator project. For OOo, there are eight mentors listed at the time of this writing. The role of the mentors is to assist the project through the process by providing guidance on Apache philosophy and policies. In order to get a sense for how much interest there is in the potential "podling" (as accepted incubator projects are called), a list of "initial committers" is being gathered in the proposal. "Committers" does not necessarily imply developers as it is meant to cover anyone who plans to do any kind of contribution to the project. There are more than 60 people listed as initial committers at the time of this writing.

Once the proposal is firmed up, a vote will be taken to determine whether the podling is accepted into the incubator program. That vote will likely happen quite soon, almost certainly before the middle of June. Based on the discussions in the mailing list, it seems pretty likely that the proposal will be accepted. The consensus seems to be that, while there may be substantial barriers to overcome before the OOo project could become an Apache top-level project, the incubation process is meant to shake those problems out. If that doesn't happen, the project will eventually be terminated, but there is no reason not to see if the problems can be worked out.

As might be guessed, that consensus (if consensus it truly is) used up a lot of electrons to emerge. There are multiple 100+ message threads in the mailing list that are discussing various aspects of the proposal. It is not only ASF members who are participating either, as various TDF members, OOo and LO community members, and other interested parties are chiming in. For the most part, it has been a polite conversation, as various commenters have been careful to steer the discussion so as to keep it on-topic and congenial—asking that flames be taken elsewhere. But it's also clear that there are some strong emotional undercurrents, at least partly because the TDF/LO community feels somewhat slighted.

It's not surprising that they feel that way. TDF and its community have done a huge amount of work in the last eight months to create a meritocratic organization to foster LO. In addition, there has been a lot of technical work done to clean up what is, by many accounts, a codebase that has the potential to inflict eye cancer, as well as work to add new features, set up build farms, and so on. Much of that work may need to be redone by any Apache project, so it looks an awful lot like a waste of effort to the LO community.

Licensing

The bigger issue may be licensing, however. When TDF formed, largely due to what it saw as mismanagement of the project, first by Sun then by Oracle, it took the OOo code under the only license it could: LGPLv3. In order to try to attract companies like IBM into contributing to LO, the foundation asked that contributions be made with a dual LGPL/Mozilla Public License (MPL) license. The MPL is a weaker copyleft license which requires that changes to existing code be released, but allows extensions and the like to be kept closed. By dual-licensing with the MPL, it would still allow companies to release LO with proprietary extensions if they could get a license for the LGPL-covered and Oracle-owned core.

At least one company has such a license, and that's IBM for its Lotus Symphony products. Prior to Sun changing the license for OOo version 2, IBM released its proprietary OOo-based products using the earlier Sun Industry Standards Source License (SISSL), which did not require that code changes be released. After Sun dropped that license for version 2, IBM had to negotiate a license separate from the LGPL so that it could keep its code closed.

The only reason Sun could issue that license to IBM is because it always required OOo contributors to grant Sun a joint copyright on the contribution. That means that Sun, now Oracle, can do anything it wants with the code, including licensing it for proprietary use. This contributor license agreement (CLA), which essentially made for an uneven playing field because only Sun/Oracle had certain rights, was another problem that caused the LO fork. It should be noted, though, that the CLA is what allows Oracle to grant ASF the right to release the code under the Apache license. Without it, all contributors would have had to agree to the change—which might have been logistically, and perhaps ideologically, difficult.

Ideology comes into play because there are two very different philosophies here when it comes to free software: copyleft vs. non-copyleft. The Apache license is a non-copyleft license that, similar to the BSD license, allows anyone to do what they wish with the code. The GPL, LGPL, MPL, and others require that modifications be released under various circumstances. Copyleft licenses restrict the ability of companies to keep parts of the code private, while non-copyleft licenses have no requirements of that sort.

The belief is that companies are more likely to contribute when they can keep some of their "secret sauce" to themselves. The BSDs have had some success with that philosophy, though GPL-covered Linux is often held up as a counter-example. It is Apache, though, that has arguably had the most success with building communities of both companies and individuals around non-copyleft code.

The ASF is, quite reasonably, proud of its license and accomplishments, so the ability to gain an Apache-branded desktop office suite is rather attractive. That said, OOo is also not an obvious fit for the organization. ASF has largely targeted server applications and, as noted by several commenters in the mailing list, is accustomed to making source-only releases. Users of OOo are unlikely to expect to have to build their own binaries, so some kind binary release will be needed. For Linux, this is less of an issue as there are distributions aplenty that will make binary releases for their users if they decide to ship OOo; in the Windows and Mac worlds—which make up the vast majority of OOo users—it's a more difficult problem.

It should be noted that, even in the Linux world, most major distributions have switched over to LO, or plan to, so some kind of a switch back to OOo would be required. Since many of the companies behind the larger distributions are also TDF supporters, that kind of a change is unlikely, at least in the near term.

Possible outcomes

One of the more optimistic conversations on the mailing list looks at ways that TDF and ASF could collaborate, without necessarily joining forces. Neither side looks likely to budge on its license choice, at least in the near term, so combining the two is simply not possible. There is something of an imbalance between the two, though, because TDF can adopt any of the Apache-licensed code (either Oracle's initial contribution or any further changes), while an Apache project cannot adopt the LGPL/MPL-licensed changes that TDF has made (or will make in the future). That one-way door is inherent in the nature of non-copyleft licenses; not only can the code be taken proprietary, it can be additionally licensed under a copyleft license.

Should the podling get accepted but fail to graduate to a top-level project, the Apache-licensed code will be available and presumably TDF will be the home of the community around the OOo/LO codebase. On the other hand, if Apache OOo takes off and the LO community largely moves over to the new project, one could imagine the LO code being re-licensed. The bulk of the LO changes were done by companies like Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, and others, so a change to the Apache license for those parts would just require the strokes of a few pens.

The other plausible outcome is that both projects thrive—or at least survive—presumably each smaller than the combination would be. The codebases would continue to diverge to a point where they would be completely different office suites that both natively supported Open Document Format (ODF). It would get harder and harder for LO to adopt OOo changes because of the divergence, so at some point, they would go their separate ways. That split is what worries many, because it would probably result in two less-capable suites. Others argue that competition between the projects may lead to both becoming better—it certainly wouldn't be the first such split in free software.

Looking at how the two projects can collaborate is an avenue toward avoiding the split, however. If the codebases could be kept in sync fairly closely, and perhaps some LO contributions also licensed under the Apache license, the divergence could be kept to a minimum. Whether the two communities can work together remains to be seen, but there are proposals for joint meetings and/or a summit of some kind. At least some cooperation in the near term seems likely, but there are some big hurdles for Apache OOo to clear.

Challenges

Numerous challenges for the likely podling have been mentioned in the threads, starting with the problem of creating binaries for end users—along with the bandwidth and server requirements to support those users. But there is more to it than that. While there are numerous initial committers listed for the project, from many different organizations as well as individual contributors, the bulk of the full-time, paid OOo staff will, at least initially, be coming from IBM. That worries some because IBM's priorities could change at any time, which might lead to a podling without enough of a contributor base.

There are also some questions about IBM's goals in pushing for an Apache OOo project. The company was never a large contributor to OOo, even after it joined the project with some fanfare in 2007. Many of its contributions have languished, and not been merged into the OOo mainline. On the other hand, IBM already has a license for the code that it needs so it's a bit unclear why it would go to the trouble of pushing Apache OOo if it didn't really have hopes of seeing a larger community grow up around it.

In addition, IBM doesn't have much of a track record in community-oriented free software projects. It has certainly contributed to various projects (notably the Linux kernel), but it lacks experience in leading a free software community—at least one that isn't directly under its control. Apache does have that experience, however, and has policies in place to ensure that its projects are governed well (starting with the incubator program itself).

There are also questions about external dependencies that may not be available under an Apache license, which might necessitate disabling some functionality or rewriting those pieces. Another missing piece from the list of files provided by Oracle is the translations that were done for OOo, which may just be an oversight. The ASF folks posting on the mailing list seem comfortable that these things can be worked out as part of the incubation process.

As a number of people have pointed out, there is a certain irony to this recent engagement between ASF, IBM, and Oracle. Apache certainly has reason to be relatively unhappy with IBM because of its abandonment of the Harmony project—something that has been cited several times as a cautionary tale regarding OOo—and Oracle because of its unwillingness to license the Java compatibility tests to Apache, which led to Apache resigning from the Java Community Process executive committee. It is a testament to the pragmatism and maturity of the ASF that it has seemingly not allowed those other problems to interfere with the current OOo contribution.

It will be interesting to watch this play out. It is unfortunate in many ways because an opportunity to fix the split in the OOo and LO development communities has been lost—or at least delayed further. It is tempting to speculate on what might have happened had Oracle made this move, say, ten months ago. But it didn't, and it owned the code, so it can make decisions that make the most sense for Oracle and its partners. At this point it seems like a face-saving move by Oracle, along with a poke in the eye to TDF, but it may be that Oracle has contracts with IBM or others that require moving the code to an organization with a non-copyleft outlook.

The decisions made by the podling going forward will likely give us a view of how interested IBM and the OOo community are in working with LO. There are presumably lots of cleanups that LO has done that could be adopted by OOo (it's hard to imagine that code and comment removals, for example, are covered by a license). That would make it easier for code to move between the two projects as it takes more than just compatible licenses (assuming some LO contributors are willing to do that) to make that work.

There seems to be a belief that some part, perhaps a large part, of the OOo community was left behind when TDF forked. Clearly Oracle employees were left out (presumably by Oracle fiat), but that doesn't really change as Oracle appears to have no interest in the project once the transition is complete. Perhaps there are constituencies that are not served well by TDF and will be by an Apache OOo project, but the progress made by LO vs. OOo since the fork doesn't seem to indicate that. We'll all just have to watch and see where things go from here.


(Log in to post comments)

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 19:15 UTC (Wed) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link]

"It is a testament to the pragmatism and maturity of the ASF that it has seemingly not allowed those other problems to interfere with the current OOo contribution."

One could argue that it is a testament to their foolishness to ignore the past actions of IBM and Sun/Oracle.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 22:42 UTC (Wed) by mastro (guest, #72665) [Link]

I hope they're smart enough to accept the donation, recognize that they only have a name while the LibreOffice guys have the source code and offer to donate or license the trademark to then.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 0:27 UTC (Thu) by csigler (subscriber, #1224) [Link]

I think one problem is that Oracle is retaining what I'd term "backstop control" of the project by retaining copyright ownership. Quoting Allen Pulsifer:

"... Oracle has retained ownership of the copyrights, and granted the ASF a license."

I'm *not* a copyright, trademark or licensing expert, but wouldn't this allow Oracle to control to whom and when ASF might transfer any rights of ownership or use? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Clemmitt

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 1:58 UTC (Thu) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link]

The Apache License is a BSD-ish license that is permissive enough that there is no real reason to require copyright assignment from anyone. The normal reason why people ask for copyright assignment is so that they (and only they) can relicense derivatives on any terms they feel like. This is typically how dual licensing is accomplished, one copyleft license for anyone, plus we own the copyright, so we can sell our special sauce version without making source available, but everyone else has to share, etc.

With a permissive license like the Apache License that generally isn't necessary. Anyone can create closed derivatives if they feel that is appropriate, not just the people with the copyright. In many ways a BSD licensed project without copyright assignment is more open than a GPL licensed project with it. The latter always creates a preferred party who can do things that none of the other participants can do.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 8:18 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

IANAL either, but the really key thing to me was that Oracle is transferring the OpenOffice.org trademark to the ASF. The Apache licence is a very permissive licence, so if the OOo codebase is released under that licence, there is nothing to stop LO from using it. But it does not permit use of trademarks in derived code. However, if the ASF will now own the OOo trademark, what's to stop them allowing LibreOffice to use it -- if, that is, both parties want to? Then wouldn't that be as good as transferring rights to TDF in the first place?

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 3:49 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Pragmatism != maturity. Pragmatism, in this community, generally is used to describe a willingness to ignore long-term goals in favor of short-term ones.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 19:42 UTC (Wed) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link]

In any case, Apache should have recognized that a community and an organization already exist that manage essentially the same code base, and out of respect for their peers in the free software/open source community, the ASF should defer to the TDF and should have refused to accept Oracle's donation.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 19:45 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Even better would be to accept it and then donate it to TDF but I don't think Apache foundation will do that. They will likely want to leverage this opportunity to push their brand to the desktop.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 11:07 UTC (Thu) by simosx (guest, #24338) [Link]

Apparently Oracle wanted to transfer the copyrights to the ASF, but ASF declined, saying they are "not needed" for them. Imagine that!

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 20:37 UTC (Wed) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

That assumes they actually knew and that they care about the same values as their peers.

But it seems clear a lot of apache hackers really hadn't noticed (as the article states, they don't do any/much desktop work). And a couple of times it was stated that there was a huge hurry, which is why some things seem so hectic.

And it looks like some people just wanted to make sure this announcement was done before LibreOffice 3.4 was released (two days later), The Document Foundation actually incorporated (almost finalized, but currently they are under the SPI and the German Freies Office Deutschland e.V.) and the official board of directors election (scheduled in a couple of weeks now that they have more than a 100 members). Also The Document Foundation actually was a bit too busy to do much promotion, most people involved were actually just hacking and coordinating making sure the community was able to push out LibreOffice releases. Just note that only after this decision by Oracle they made public they had actually officially offered to help them with taking care of the openoffice.org domain and community: http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/06/06/publishing-...

Had this offer to apache be done just a little later, then people might have had a bit more chance to know and there would have been less FUD about TDG/LO. But as it stands, outside of the free software/desktop world, The Document Foundation and LibreOffice weren't that well known. Even if most people on LWN know they are the openoffice.org community in exile with hundreds of contributors.

And unlike other free software foundations the ASF's strength is that it is kind of blind to their contributors, as long as you hack under Apache rules (no copyleft! ever! lots of PMCs with various +1 voting rules) anybody is welcome. These rigid dogmatic rules, where officially only the individual counts, is precisely why they are trusted by companies to dump code. It just is a calculated risk for them with clear rules they can understand. Adding more individuals to a project will give you more standing/influence. And often it does result in more free software. That does mean they get gamed sometimes to have a big buzz about there being a real new community around. But they cannot just change their rules and sometimes say "no, really, this is too obviously just a poke in the eye of the real community/project, go away, you are just deceiving". Then they would destroy their greatest strength, attracting corporations willing to make their software free software as long as the ASF guards that the communities these corporations (and individuals!) that work under their auspicious don't use anything copylefty.

So doing like you suggest might make good sense viewed from the larger free software/open source community sense, but it would destroy the things the ASF actually stands for. And with that probably their ability to attract new corporate hackers and code.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 8:54 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

There is no chance in hell of any non-copyleft/BSD-centered organization donating anything, much less code, to a copyleft/GNU-centered organization.
Or vice versa.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 15:39 UTC (Thu) by zeekec (subscriber, #2414) [Link]

Ummm.... The BSD style licenses already donate all the code to copy-left projects. It's the nature of the license.

Licensing

Posted Jun 8, 2011 21:04 UTC (Wed) by brugolsky (subscriber, #28) [Link]

Can we expect the usual copyleft flame wars in which TDF/LO is accused of "stealing" from OO.o, for merely following the license? Or are office suite hackers more mature than OS hackers? :-/

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 21:50 UTC (Wed) by sspr (guest, #39636) [Link]

Strikingly similar to the whole Jenkins/Hudson fork (http://jenkins-ci.org/content/hudsons-future): First bully the community Sun had built around a product (Hudson/OO.org) into a fork. Then some months later, donate same project to some foundation (Eclipse/ASF). Watch the fork doing considerably better than the foundation version (https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=... very interesting read!).

LO was merging OO.org code in already. I don't see what changes with moving that OO.org code to ASF. They got their infrastructure, they are doing releases, they are being supported by major distributors. I hope/believe the LO community has the same momentum as the Jenkins one has.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 8, 2011 23:27 UTC (Wed) by kripkenstein (guest, #43281) [Link]

In theory, I think TDF/LO can merge with a new Apache-licensed OOo under the ASF. TDF/LO has less than a year of code commits. It should be possible to take the new Apache code, and apply those changesets, assuming the writers of those changesets are ok with the Apache license.

Normally this sort of thing is too hard to do, but here we have a fairly short history for the LO fork, everything should be very well documented in the repo history etc.

Is there any reason not to do this, aside from people that object to the Apache license? Seems like all efforts could be unified.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 0:28 UTC (Thu) by DOT (guest, #58786) [Link]

LibreOffice's codebase is older than it seems. Go-oo was started in 2007, so that's more than 3 years of code commits from many people without copyright assignment. Relicensing can become tricky.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 0:57 UTC (Thu) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link]

I think people are first watching if anything actually comes out of this. libreoffice has been pretty active and has basically gotten all the active community members now:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice?s=idle
The old code base has been abandoned and doesn't really see much changes anymore:
http://hg.services.openoffice.org/?sort=lastchange

Maybe these new apache committers will actually start coding again, but it seems the first order of business is getting rid of all the MPL/[L]GPL dependencies. Which will be a lot of work without any gain (of new features). So it might be better to just sit back and watch whether anything useful actually pops out before starting grand merging plans.

My screwball theory.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 0:52 UTC (Thu) by csigler (subscriber, #1224) [Link]

I have a very simplistic theory of this (frenzied) transfer of rights via licensing from Oracle to ASF. Oracle saw OO.o as another profit center when they purchased Sun, probably not a major one, but something, and it pokes a finger in Microsoft's office suite near-monopoly eye to boot. They allowed a few months to try to develop OO.o, devoting man-hours to the project, but when they did a review they saw it was unlikely to make any profit even in the long-term. So, being profit-oriented (and they are a for-profit company), they decided to stop the bleeding and cut it loose.

But there's a problem: TDF. They effectively became Oracle's competitor in the open-source office suite marketplace once they gave up working under Sun/Oracle's umbrella and started their own skunk-works (and a surprising successful one). Money is the most important channel of revenue in the industry, but it's not the only one. Abandoning OO.o or turning it over to TDF would not only abandon monetary profit, but also surrender corporate recognition, as well as industry and end-user esteem, to TDF, their de-facto competitor. So, what to do so as not to look like a kicked cur when it comes to their OO.o "experiment?"

The decision to license rights to all things OO.o to ASF is their way of saving face, of trumping the (highly successful) ongoing work of TDF on the code base, and of cooperating with IBM. Who knows, there may be a confidential agreement between Oracle and IBM that involves monetary reimbursement, but of course that is just idle and perhaps conspiratorial speculation.

Now, as necessary, please contradict and correct me. I'd really like to understand all this better.

Clemmitt

My screwball theory.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 4:51 UTC (Thu) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

It doesn't trump or save face, it only makes them look like a spoiled child that can't handle losing. They created the problem and got beat at their own game, had a temper tantrum and refused to cooperate. You'd think they could be adults about it, but as they say a companies attitude and responsibility generally derive directly from the CEO and from everything I've read about Larry Ellison that explains it all.

My screwball theory.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 11:03 UTC (Thu) by skitching (guest, #36856) [Link]

Oracle making such a large amount of effort for a "face saving" effort whose success is uncertain just doesn't seem likely to me. As you note, Oracle seem to think that OO is not a profit source for them, so don't care a whole lot what becomes of it.

I would think that pressure from IBM is more likely; they have a commercial product that will soon be made obsolete by progress in the LO fork, whose code they cannot merge back into their Symphony product. If IBM can get the office-suite community to gather around an Apache-licensed suite then they can continue to offer Symphony as latest-OOo + proprietary extensions. Yes, they can partially do this with LO if they can package their extensions as "plugins" but it won't be so easy as being able to directly modify the core code. There might be payment from IBM to Oracle involved, but IBM and Oracle still interact in many ways so compensation could take many forms.

Oracle might vaguely have the same idea in mind; use the Apache releases as a "base" to then modify with their own secret sauce and release as "Oracle Office".

Of course the risk for IBM/Oracle is that other companies are free to do this too, but I can't see many other corporates wanting to leap into the office suite market.

Whether this would be good or bad for free software isn't clear; the ASF (IMO) takes the view that even when the above behaviour (free core + proprietary extensions) is occurring, the free core moves forward faster than a pure GPL'd tool would anyway, due to the extra full-time developers - and therefore even users of just the free core are winners. Personally, I'd love to see some proper research on this topic; 20 years of free software should now be enough to provide sound statistics for an analysis of an ASL vs GPL approach.

As for the ASF's motives in participating? Well, (a) the philisophical reason above, and (b) the bar for getting a project into the incubator is deliberately very low; after all, "incubator" projects are still *not* apache projects. Something in the incubator stage is forbidden from making any releases claiming to be an "Apache project". Getting out of the incubator is far tougher, and includes convincing the ASF membership that project leadership is properly merit-based, and that no one company dominates the project (see the Apache rules and regulations for the full details). If the project can't reach this level, then it will never become an actual Apache project. So in some sense, there is nothing to lose; if it succeeds in gathering wide-spread support, then good. If not, then it dies in the incubator phase.

Disclosure: I'm an emeritus Apache member..

Apache should have declined.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 7:26 UTC (Thu) by nettings (subscriber, #429) [Link]

This is a sad state of affairs. The playground bully finally managed to piss off everybody except one or two other playground bullies, and the civilised majority just walked away, creating a huge and rightfully deserved PR disaster for the bully.
Apache's acceptance of the code will help to contain this PR disaster. I don't think that's helpful. OOo should be left to fall flat on its face.

The incubator project will either fail (leading to wasted effort) or succeed in creating a fork, which will also lead to duplicated and hence wasted effort. I don't see any potential benefits in it (except for Oracle and IBM, for whom I couldn't care less).
And how Apache's decision to cooperate (again) with entities that have effectively torpedoed large Apache projects in the past is a sign of "maturity" rather than stupidity is not clear to me either.

Apache should have declined.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 9:00 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

Damn right.

The same thing happened to the BSDs. I sometimes wonder whether there'd even *be* a Linux today if they hadn't split up.

I do hope that contributors stay with LO. Let the OOo branch die a well-deserved death, no matter under whose leadership.

Apache should have declined.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 10:49 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

BSD had legal problems that weren't resolved until years after Linus started on Linux. The BSD splits were largely due to these legal problems. It was the legal problems with BSD, not the splits, that created the vacuum that likely helped Linux to develop.

Apache should have declined.

Posted Jun 9, 2011 13:12 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

Nonetheless, in the mid-1990s FreeBSD (2.x and 3.x) was clearly superior to Linux (1.2 and 2.0) in nearly all departments. If the BSDs hadn't been busy fighting one another and had been more welcoming of newcomers and new ideas, I think the free software world would look rather different today.

Apache should have declined.

Posted Jun 11, 2011 18:10 UTC (Sat) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

The GPL does help with companies contributing to Linux. If company A contributes to the project, there is no competitor B that will take their changes and make a better competing product for the code is not available for company A.

Because the GPL says the user can do whatever it wants with the code it is obligated to receive with the product, including posting it back to the project.

I don't know if companies think that far ahead, some would really like to keep their changes to themselfs I would prosume.

What it does do is create more fragmentated development, unlike the Linux kernel it seems. Although licensing isn't the cause that the different BSD versions exist and licensing didn't prevent that the different Linux distributions exist either.

Each license has their advantages/disadvantages.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 21:23 UTC (Thu) by runekock (subscriber, #50229) [Link]

This may well benefit LibreOffice in the end. IBM and any other companies that want the Apache project to succeed, will want to pour resources into it. And the resulting code can be used by LibreOffice.

As IBM won't accept any copy-left license, the alternative would be that IBM kept all their code to themselves. Now, they'll probably develop the core in Apache, and only keep their special UI closed.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 22:44 UTC (Thu) by csigler (subscriber, #1224) [Link]

I'd like to agree. In the end the high visibility of the new-and-improved OO.o project licensed to ASF and (in a way) sponsored by IBM may turn out to benefit LO in areas of the code where LO won't develop new or improved functionality, that is, areas where none of their developers feel an itch they need to scratch.

Only problem, historically, is that IBM has said they contributed some important code/features to OO.o. This, from what I've read, turned out to be a massive code dump -- no interchange or cooperation with those working on OO.o at the time, and the patches were against an *ancient* version of the code base, 1.1.5. If this is how IBM will contribute to the ASF OO.o project (and to LO), it may be of little use to anyone except their own clients.

Clemmitt

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 16, 2011 3:09 UTC (Thu) by Hausvib6 (guest, #70606) [Link]

Legally, there will be no problem for TDF by taking any new improvements from OO.o. Technically, there will be another cause of eye cancer: merging two diverging codebases.

Oracle donates OpenOffice.org to Apache

Posted Jun 9, 2011 22:03 UTC (Thu) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link]

There's another factor that's being overlooked in all this: the LO code has already undergone massive cleanup—and I do mean massive! Dead code removal, duplicate code (and data) consolidation and restructuring, macro reorganization, comment cleanup, etc. For Joe Randomcoder, working on the LO codebase is likely to be far more appealing/less intimidating, at least at the moment; the learning curve for jumping into the OOo code has to be much higher! This is especially likely to be a factor if Joe is (as is likely) already using or about to switch to the LO from his distribution.

For some, the license may be a bigger factor—certainly the license issues have gotten more press—but that will cut both ways, with some preferring the Apache license, and others the copyleft. But unless OOo can match the current quality of the LO code, all those who are fairly happy with either license (which I suspect is a large number, though that may just be my own biases showing) will be more attracted to the LO project. A cleanup of the OOo code would solve this, but would take time, which will allow LO to pull farther ahead on features. The fact that OOo has been stagnant so long is a disadvantage that will be hard to overcome.

What would be sad is if the OOo project ends up collapsing because of the quality of its code, and then people start attributing its collapse to the license instead.

Switch back ?

Posted Jun 11, 2011 17:58 UTC (Sat) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

"It should be noted that, even in the Linux world, most major distributions have switched over to LO, or plan to, so some kind of a switch back to OOo would be required."

Euh... not completely true. Most Linux distributions, because of the slow processes at Sun/Oracle didn't use plain-vanilla OpenOffice but http://www.go-oo.org/

Which is a set of patches against OpenOffice which were not yet accepted.

One of the first things that happend after LibreOffice source repository was created is to merge those patches. Maybe of the Linux distributions are in the "LibreOffice-camp".

So the Linux distrbutions have always been using the same "lineage", only the branding changed.

If they switched to OpenOffice.org it be like switching back to what they were using many, many years ago.


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