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On Novell and Microsoft

Depending on who is commenting, the recently announced agreement between Microsoft and Novell is either the ultimate victory or the beginning of the end for Linux. If there is anything that is clear about this new arrangement, it's that nobody really understands what it means yet. Perhaps, in the end, it means less than most people hope or fear.

Parts of the agreement are reasonably easy to understand. Microsoft will now officially recommend SUSE Linux to its customers who are determined to run something other than Windows on some of their machines. Microsoft will also hand out "coupons" for Novell support. A joint "research center" will be set up to work on projects of interest to both companies; virtualization, network management, and document formats are on the list of topics to be addressed. Among other things, this work could result in better support for documents in Microsoft formats, an area of active interest for many years.

The part of the agreement which has attracted the most attention, however, is the patent deal. This is also the hardest part to understand, and its real implications may take years to become clear. These seem to be the relevant points:

  • The two companies have entered into a "covenant not to sue" each others' paying customers for patent violations. So SUSE (but not OpenSUSE) users should be free of the fear of being hauled into court by Microsoft's lawyers, and Windows users need no longer stay awake at nights worrying about a legal attack from Novell.

  • The companies are making patent royalty payments to each other. It appears that the net cash flow is in Novell's direction, because there are more Windows products shipped than SUSE products. But the fact remains: Microsoft has succeeded in collecting a tax on every SUSE Linux distribution supported by Novell.

  • Microsoft has made a promise not to sue individual developers for patent violations - sort of.

The text of the covenant not to sue has been posted. It would appear to cover Novell's paid customers for their particular use of SUSE Linux. It's not clear that the term "use" extends to the ways some of us "use" Linux - distributing it to others, for example. Microsoft can tweak or terminate the agreement at any time "pursuant to the terms of the Patent Cooperation Agreement between Novell and Microsoft that was publicly announced on November 2, 2006"; of course, the terms of that agreement are not publicly available. The agreement is currently slated to end in 2012, however.

To some, this agreement represents a total sell-out of Linux users by Novell. To others, it is simply Novell trying to eliminate a specific source of FUD against its customers. How it will really play out remains to be seen.

Novell insists that it has not licensed any patents from Microsoft - that the "covenant not to sue" is an entirely different thing. It is somewhat hard to believe that a courtroom would come to the same conclusion, especially given the fact that royalty payments are being made. The distinction may become very important to Novell. Many observers have pointed out section 7 of the GNU General Public License:

If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

What this text means is that, if Microsoft is asserting patents against GPL-licensed code, Novell cannot distribute that code to its customers just because it has a "license" from Microsoft. There is some suspicion that Novell is trying to use the "covenant not to sue" as a way of weaseling out of this restriction, but it is difficult to imagine such a strategy succeeding. If Novell's customers cannot redistribute Linux, then Novell cannot distribute it to them.

So, should Microsoft ever go after a user of GPL-licensed code, Novell will find itself in a difficult position. Either distribution of the code in question in the lawsuit must be stopped, creating potential problems for Novell's customers, or Novell can continue distribution under its non-license with Microsoft, inviting suits from copyright holders. Either way, a Microsoft patent suit against Linux would not be a comfortable experience for Novell, even with this agreement in place.

Adding to the non-license claim, Novell's Kurt Garloff told LWN:

Like before, Novell does not acknowledge that any software it ships actually does infringe on a patent. As soon as Novell would determine that GPL software is affected by a MS patent, Novell would change the software to avoid/work around being affected by the patent.

This is a clear position which contains all the right words. It is still hard to square the claim that no patents have been acknowledged with the royalty payments, however. If Novell acknowledges no patent infringements, what, exactly, is it paying royalties on? Perhaps it is just naked protection money for its customers. Or, perhaps, this is a concession Novell had to make to obtain the royalty stream from Microsoft.

One of the criticisms of this deal centers on the implicit acknowledgment of patent problems in Linux. Companies pursuing patent shakedowns often use the existence of paying licensees as evidence in their favor. If, however, Novell has in truth not licensed (or obtained "covenants not to sue") on any specific patents, then the value of Novell as evidence, especially in court, will be small.

A separate - and very interesting - question remains: how, exactly, does Novell's "covenant not to sue" affect the patents which Novell donated to the Open Invention Network (OIN)? Those patents are at the core of OIN's deterrent power, and it is the promise of protection from OIN which enabled the inclusion of Mono-based software into the Fedora Core distribution. If Novell's non-license covers those patents, then OIN's credibility as a deterrent to lawsuits by Microsoft will take a large hit. Your editor was unable to get an answer from Novell on this question in this article's time frame (getting answers from lawyers takes time). It would seem, however, from an inexpert reading, that the relevant patents have been truly assigned to OIN, and are no longer Novell's to non-license to anybody. If that reading is correct, then OIN's position is just as strong as it was before.

That question has not been settled, however, and there is a lot of concern in the community. The Fedora Project is actively considering the future of Mono in its distribution - one of many interesting decisions that project will be making in the near future.

Finally, there is the matter of Microsoft's promise not to sue individual developers. Anybody who is interested should just go read the text of the promise. As long as individual developers stay in their own basements and don't try to do anything rash - like distribute their code - they will be safe. For anybody who is trying to actually be a part of the free software development community, however, Microsoft's promise has no value at all. There is no point, even, in getting worked up about the fact that Microsoft reserves the right to change its promise at any time. For individual developers, nothing has changed at all.

In fact, for most of us, nothing has really changed. Software patent suits were a serious threat before, and they are still a serious threat. Some argue that Novell's agreement has made a patent attack from Microsoft more likely (Steve Ballmer's latest FUD is often quoted), but that is not at all clear. It is hard to see Microsoft suing Linux users; those whose pockets are deep enough to make them worth suing are certainly Microsoft customers too. A patent suit against another Linux distributor would leave Novell in a seriously uncomfortable position, and likely shatter this new partnership. The threat is there, certainly, just like it was before.

To your editor's eye, the deal looks like the following. Novell, despite trying to do a lot of the right things, finds itself a distant second in the corporate Linux market. Red Hat has proved hard to beat, and the entry of Oracle into this market - supporting Red Hat's distribution - seems unlikely to help. In this context, the deal with Microsoft must look like it has some real advantages: it might help SUSE Linux to achieve the best interoperability with Microsoft products, bring in a few more sales, provide a new royalty revenue stream, and eliminate a source of FUD which might just, still, be bothering a few potential customers. All of these could help to solidify Novell's position in the market, for a while at least.

So, the claims that Novell has sold out Linux for its own advancement are probably overblown - assuming that OIN retains its power. Most of the community will probably be unaffected, and, if we're really lucky, we might get a bit of code out of the deal. What Novell has done to itself will take longer to work out. Walking into Microsoft's embrace has not always led to long-term joy for the companies involved. On the other hand, some sort of engagement between Microsoft and Linux must happen at some point; it is not as if Microsoft will simply vanish. Novell has taken that step; whether it turns out to be a good thing (for Novell, and for the community) is something we will have to see over time.


(Log in to post comments)

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 18:14 UTC (Tue) by b7j0c (subscriber, #27559) [Link]

the only audience i presume this placates is the corporate audience who
purchase site liceses, where novell already occupies a minority position.
redhat's immediate response was correct, and i suspect they will have no
problem maintaining market dominance among corporate buyers.

opensuse community contributors are probably feeling a little burned, going
to the same shrink that is currently treating former darwinx86 community
contributors. at this rate i wonder why community contributors bother with
corporate products at all.

pursuant to this, i predict a suse die-off. i'll be scanning distrowatch
for clues.

the real kicker is miguel's snotty comment that this addresses mono patent
issues, which he claims are the exclusive domain of people who "find dates
on slashdot". well miguel, if their concerns are so ridiculous, why did you
validate them? your comment derinding people who show interest and concern
for software freedom really amazed me, and i have moved you to the
shitlist.

this really calls into question mono integration with gnome. i personally
will not run gnome at this point if i am forced into a corner with novell
and microsoft.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 18:59 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

I totally agree. Miguel has been saying for years that patents are simply not a problem for Mono. Then yesterday he blogs about how NOW patents are not a problem for Mono.

Um, what? Are patents a problem or not?

Up until last week I was OK with running Mono. Now Miguel is making it pretty clear that, unless you're under Novell's protective umbrella, Mono carries some real risks. Otherwise why would this pact even matter?

I purged Mono from my machines yesterday. Now that Tracker is pretty strong, no big loss (I only used Beagle as locate++ anyway). I just need to figure out another way to package up FCKeditor's javascript source files now...

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 19:45 UTC (Tue) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link]

What has FCKeditor's javascript got to do with Mono? I'm just curious - I hack on it myself as part of my living... Thx!

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 8, 2006 5:52 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

The packager is written in C#.

http://events.uvic.ca/scripts/editor/_packager/readme.html
http://www.fckeditor.net/packager/

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 21:35 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Patents are a problem for ALL Free software.

With Mono your going to be relatively safe. Just don't use any of the parts of Mono that aren't C# proper.

The thing is that it's a published standard, put out by Microsoft, for other people to use. If they were to all of a sudden go after patent infrigments they would have to explain why the hell they disclosed all this information on C# and all of a sudden decided to sue people when they made no mention of any patents before this.

Other companies that disclose patent-encumbered "standards", like Cicso and their networking stuff, always declare what patents they care about and were you can go to pay the licensing fees.

So using Mono is safer then:
Mono is safer then OpenOffice.org
Mono is safer then Koffice
Mono is safer then Firefox
Mono is safer then QT
Mono is safer then the Linux kernel
Mono is safer then Samba

So you better strip all those things out of your distribution.

Because undoubtedly those are violating somebody's patents somewere and the likelihood that one of multiple of them could be owned by Microsoft is pretty high. And with those, especially with anything that deals with Windows file and protocol compatability, was made in a way that was entirely unnaproved by Microsoft and does things that they very much dislike.

Saying we should avoid mono because of possible patents owned by Microsoft is like saying "I should cut off my thumb becuase it might have cancer in it"

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:20 UTC (Tue) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

After having seen "than" misspelled as "then" in six sentences in a row, I went berserk and uninstalled mono on all machines where I have root access. Poor beagle and tomboy - they were killed too as collateral damage.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:28 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Your loss then.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 8, 2006 2:11 UTC (Wed) by avik (guest, #704) [Link]

You mean than.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 8, 2006 7:16 UTC (Wed) by Ross (guest, #4065) [Link]

Just FYI, patents are by definition publicly disclosed, and there is no obligation to not include them in standards. What is considered unfair is making something a standard while secretly pursuing patent protection, only to spring it later when it is too late to stop using the standard. Illegal? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what kind of agreements were in place when the company joined the standards body.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 9, 2006 9:53 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Ya the patent is still valid if you do it, but you can't do things like sue for damages.

Sure the patents are disclosed, but the pratical limitations for programmers to understand patents of find the violating patent out of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousand other software patents is very unlikely.

The Laches defense kicks in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_%28equity%29

And if I understand with patents you still keep it, but you loose a lot of rights. Generally what you could expect to happen is that if Microsoft decided to sue Mono developers then the court would eventually just give Mono developers a period of time to correct the patent violations or start paying licensing fees.

Microsoft won't be able to claim that Mono was hiding stuff from them or whatnot. Mono is very open with Microsoft and do presentations in .NET confrences and that sort of thing.

Also mono is partially attempting to promote C# by making it cross-platform. So in effect it's kinda benifiting Microsoft.

Now in comparision look at Samba. This has definately damaged Microsoft's market share. Plenty of Linux boxes running samba have saved many many people the cost of paying Microsoft. Microsoft refuses to release documentation based on 'IP' issues, and has no interest in interlopy with other systems. Their versions of SMB were never intended to work with anything but Microsoft software.

So with SMB2 with Vista and such Linux has support for that BEFORE Vista even gets released to the public. So this stuff has been reversed engineered from software provided for Microsoft associated developers. I am sure that in the legal agreements and EULA hell associated with MS beta programs probably forbid stuff like that.

So the likelyhood of Microsoft actually inflicting serious damage into Samba through a patent violation is much much higher then with Mono.

Of course I will happily use Samba. I am not scared of potential patent lawsuites. If Microsoft starts throwing around the patent nulcear bomb it's going to be the business equivelent of WW3. A feeding frenzy. It's just as likely that MS will end up dead as much as any other company. Free software and Linux is going to survive no matter what the hell happens. It's a bit like coachroaches in this manner.

(and despite my psuedo-defending Mono and Novell, my personal preference is Python and Debian)

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 16, 2006 12:49 UTC (Thu) by gwg (guest, #20811) [Link]

> So this stuff has been reversed engineered from software provided for
> Microsoft associated developers. I am sure that in the legal agreements
> and EULA hell associated with MS beta programs probably forbid stuff like that.

Probably, but (as far as I can tell) it doesn't apply, because Samba is being done in Australia, and the Copyright Amendment (Computer Programs) Bill 1999 exempts people from such EULA terms, if the reverse engineering is for the purpose of study, security or software compatibility.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 19:06 UTC (Tue) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

Isn't it interesting that GNOME, the prefered GNU project DE, is now suffering by guilt from association with Ximian and Novell?

it is not

Posted Nov 7, 2006 19:57 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

Novell/SuSE has many important contributors to both Gnome and KDE, but since the Ximian folks went heavily for Mono, they are no longer in the mainstream of Gnome development (and I think that the other Gnome developers will be much more reluctant to work with Mono than before). There isn't any reason for you to start a Gnome/KDE flamewar, so please don't.

it is

Posted Nov 7, 2006 22:22 UTC (Tue) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

No flame war intended. Just pointing out that I've read some negative knee-jerk reaction toward GNOME over the past few days and that some people quickly establish guilt by association. That is all.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 20:17 UTC (Tue) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link]

Though the way you phrased it is a tad coarse for LWN I feel it is true that there had been some concerns about Mono and patents. It does seem that Novell were saying "oh no - it's all right, Mono is _fine_" while everybody else was going "um, this _the_ Microsoft we're talking about here". When Fedora gave Mono the green light I think most of us relaxed but now Novell seems to be saying "Mono is covered (now)" which if correct sucks either way.

I think it should be recognised by distribution creators that .Net and Java are really MS and Sun vehicles and that the less we rely on them the better. Sure there's some cool Mono and Java apps (Beagle, Tomboy, Eclipse, Limewire) but languages/platforms should be completely company agnostic. Who owns C? Who owns Python? I feel we all do in a communal kind of way. But when it comes to Mono/.Net and Java you know for sure all roads lead back to Redmond and Menlo Park. We should tread carefully. I wonder how easy it would be to make a version of Ubuntu without Mono and Java?

I know there are more imporatant things in life :)
Anthony

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 21:20 UTC (Tue) by b7j0c (subscriber, #27559) [Link]

well in a way if this was to come to a head, maybe now is the time for it to happen, before mono becomes deeply integrated into popular distributions.

as of now, purging mono and living without it appears to be relatively painless, and once again this validates the open source ecosystem of tools as compared to monoculture (pun intended!).

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 22:28 UTC (Tue) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

So far as I know, living without mono is quite painless as I don't have it installed anywhere. Java is another story as several apps depend on having it available although Debian does stay away from Sun's version. Worse is Flash which has no real work-alike available. I hold it in disdain, but keep it installed for the odd webpage that uses it which is generally for entertainment purposes and could probably be excised without too much pain. NoScript helps with that a lot.

novell die-off imminent?

Posted Nov 8, 2006 8:11 UTC (Wed) by Frej (guest, #4165) [Link]

I don't see the connection from gnome to mono.
Just dont install the very few mono applications. Your choice :)

A Windows tax on SUSE, and a SUSE tax on Windows?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 19:53 UTC (Tue) by MattBBaker (subscriber, #28651) [Link]

The article states that "Microsoft has succeeded in collecting a tax on
every SUSE Linux distribution supported by Novel"

But it seems SUSE has collected a tax on Windows too. An interesting
reversal of fate, since I can get Ubuntu Linux (plus any other Linux
based system really) and not pay the MS tax, but now all Windows users
must pay the Linux tax, since there is only one Windows.

I can see this as a sort of covering your bases move for Microsoft too.
If Linux does take over the world, then Microsoft will have a cash stream
through SUSE to stay alive on.

Possible Unix connection?

Posted Nov 7, 2006 20:52 UTC (Tue) by southey (guest, #9466) [Link]

Given the way that SCO and Novell's case is going, it make one think if there is a connection to Unix that is not being mentioned.

What a conflict!

Posted Nov 7, 2006 21:06 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link]

When SCO first started their mad haps years ago, I knew right away it was not a problem, that free source software simply can't be beat by such nonsense.

When Novell came out of the blue with their demand that SCO escrow all the licensing money they had received from SUN and Microsoft, I was astounded at the master stroke and its Gordian knot simplicity. Novell suddenly went from who cares status to a darling savior.

Then this, seemingly SCO all over again. Microsoft suing over patents will fare no better than SCO suing over copyrights and contracts. They might have more money for the lawyers, but they also would have the anti-trust people all over them.

I just don't know what to think about Novell. It is no danger to Linux, but Novell, I weep for you, are you savior or scumbag? What made you so schizophrenic?

It just makes no sense to me that any company which has been at the receiving end of the SCO stick would turn around and beat themselves with that same stick. I just do not understand.

What a conflict!

Posted Nov 8, 2006 10:30 UTC (Wed) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link]

You should not think in term of a company, but in term of who
decides. Novell changed its CEO last Spring.
The strategy of a company is at least as volatile as the
change of the top managers.

What a conflict!

Posted Nov 8, 2006 12:34 UTC (Wed) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

For a prime example of how important the philosophy of the CEO is to these tech companies, take a look at http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061104213326242 which is Ransom Love's declaration with regard to the history of Caldera and the SCO Group. Pay particular attention to how the company's attitude turned, almost on a dime, once Mr. Love left the company. Note also, what happened when Ray Noorda left Novell in 1994.

There is a track record through these companies of a visionary CEO's replacement being, if not indifferent, openly hostile to Free Software. Let this be a lesson to those involved as the head of a company making money from Free Software, choose your successor wisely.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 7, 2006 21:11 UTC (Tue) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link]

"For anybody who is trying to actually be a part of the free software
development community, however, Microsoft's promise has no value at all."

In business, a promise in general has no value at all. The only thing
which counts is a signed contract. Everything else is just hot air
(i18n("warme luft")).

Beside that, what has changed for Novell Customers ?
Imagine a company which wants to switch their servers completely from
Windows to Linux. For them this would be a strategic decision.
Customer: "So we'd like to switch to Linux"
SUSE: "That'd be great ! And if you choose SUSE, you can be sure MS won't
sue you in the next 5 years !"
Customer: "And what happens after 2012 ?"
SUSE: "Well, it seems we don't know..."

IMHO if a company wants to really switch, 5 years is worth not much.
There are some license costs, there is the cost for training the admin
staff and the costs for the work for actually doing the switch. All this
together is quite some money and effort. In this context 5 years don't
seem like a long time to me.

Alex

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 7, 2006 22:50 UTC (Tue) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

> In business, a promise in general has no value at all. The only thing which counts is a signed contract.

Not entirely true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 7, 2006 21:23 UTC (Tue) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

People are misreading section 7 of the GPL. Section 7 states only that, if you cannot fulfill your GPL obligations due to other obligations, you cannot use your GPL priviledges. If you have a patent license which permits you to fulfill your GPL obligations, but the recipients of the code don't have a patent license, that's not your problem.

Furthermore, you have no GPL obligation to negotiate a patent license for the recipients of the code, any more than you have any obligation to lobby for whatever the software does to be legal in their jurisdictions, or provide them hardware the software runs on, or anything else. All you are obliged to provide them with is the source, licensed under the GPL. For that matter, you could distribute software under the GPL whose source is subject to export restrictions in your country, so long as you, personally, are able to send the source anywhere you actually send the binaries. If someone else gets it, and wants to export the binaries, it's entirely their problem to get the appropriate export license for he source, which they are required to do in order to be able to export the binaries (as explained by section 7); the non-transferability of your export license is not an issue, because your sole obligation is the copyright licensing and availability of the source.

In general, relying on section 7 of the GPL for an argument is unwise, because it ends with "This section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License." That is, the FSF believes that section 7 is unnecessary, so you're probably wrong if you think that section 7 implies something that the rest of the GPL doesn't.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 7, 2006 22:11 UTC (Tue) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

> People are misreading section 7 of the GPL. Section 7 states only that, if
> you cannot fulfill your GPL obligations due to other obligations, you
> cannot use your GPL priviledges. If you have a patent license which permits
> you to fulfill your GPL obligations, but the recipients of the code don't
> have a patent license, that's not your problem.

That's not true, because one of your primary obligations under the GPL is that the people you redistribute to have all the same rights that you do. This is one of the fundamental underpinnings of the GPL; if you can't provide them with the legal ability to redistribute in exactly the way you can, then you cannot use the GPL.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 0:16 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

Read the actual GPL document. The relevant section is 2b, which states:
You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.
(Sections 1 and 3 are about making the actual content available; 2a and 2c are about making the modifications clear; 4, 5, and 6 state that you can't change the license; 7 is informational; beyond that is administrivia).

Having a work licensed to you under the terms of the GPL doesn't mean that using it would not infringe patents held by other people. Nor does owning a copy of the work. Some actions require multiple rights, granted by distinct entities. The GPL only has an effect on copyright on works. Now, a patent license which prevented you from licensing works which use that patent to everybody under the GPL would prevent you from legally distributing a GPL work; you have to be able to do that much, as section 7 says. But the GPL can't really say anything about whether people are allowed to transmit on licensed RF bands with a GPL software radio program, or allowed to import works to countries with import restrictions, or use it without additional patent licenses.

Otherwise, Microsoft could shut down the FSF by granting use of some patent to any organization with a three-letter acronym. Then the FSF would have a patent it couldn't sublicense to John Doe, and would therefore be unable to distribute anything under the GPL. This doesn't work because the grant wouldn't give them any obligation not to license works under the GPL to people who aren't covered by the patent grant. Conventionally, patent licenses do restrict what the owners of works can do as far as licensing those works, but that's not necessarily the case.

(And, to make things more complicated, a patent may cover only some uses of something, because the application of a known technique to an unexpected problem is a valid invention; someone offering a work under the GPL may not be using all of the patents that potential users of the work would use, so there would be no need for the owner to get a license for that patent at all, let alone a sublicensable one.)

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 16:32 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

Also, and this is an interesting bit of IP law, source code cannot be patented.

It's only the binary + the computer that is patented. Really.

Think about how ludicrous it would be to claim that a book is patented. Or a magazine article. Source code is the same thing, just words people read. Only when a computer performs it does it become something covered under patent law.

Because source code itself is just a (precisely detailed) description of how it works. This is exactly what a patent application is supposed to contain, since patents were originally intended to provide incentives to disclose secret techniques.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:48 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

I think you are misreading it. Most germane is this section:

For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
I'm pretty confident that a court would see a "covenant not to sue" as equivalent to a license regarding this language. Also, note the use of the word "allegation" in section 7. While Novell is being careful not to make an allegation, surely Microsoft has made one.

I think that if FSF wished to, it could enjoin Novell from distributing GNU LIBC under the covenants it has entered into. Perhaps Red Hat would like to fund that suit.

Bruce

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 0:12 UTC (Wed) by alexbk (subscriber, #37839) [Link]

The just published FAQ says that Novell itself has not entered any covenants, it's the Novell's
customers who get that with a Novell contract.

I wonder if that covenant is obligatory for the customers; if it is, then it seems to me that Novell is
violating the GPL by attaching extra conditions to it. Either way, if these customers accept the
covenant and distribute the software they got from Novell, then they might be in legal trouble.
Clever trickstery indeed.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 0:28 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

The covenant is the subject of a commercial agreement between the two companies in which Microsoft agreed to issue it to Novell's customers in return for certain consideration from Novell such as use of Novell's patents and Novell's help in various ways. So, it's as if Novell were paying Microsoft to do this and to act as their proxy, in some mistaken belief that using a proxy would protect them from legal liability for breach of the GPL. It won't get by a court.

Were Microsoft choosing to issue this covenant out of the goodness of its heart for no consideration from Novell of any kind, Novell might not be in violation.

Thanks

Bruce

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 8:41 UTC (Wed) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

SuSE plays the in enterpricey league. People buy these things because they think Novell will still be a major player ten years from now.

That means the fact that we're actually discussing whether this is a covenant or not and how that relates to the GPL is hurting SuSEs credibility.

When even the respected Linux news sites are uncertain, that's some pretty good FUD.

Covenants, licenses, and GPL virality

Posted Nov 9, 2006 22:10 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I see the usual confusion between licenses and contracts here, with the addition of the new term "covenant." Remember: a license is permission from Person A to Person B to do something that Person A has a legal right to stop Person B from doing. A license doesn't restrict anyone but Person A. There is no such thing as breaching or violating a license. A license does not prohibit anything. A license is a one-way thing.

The confusion arises because a license is often offered under conditions. If Person B meets the conditions of the license, he has the desired permission, otherwise he has no permission. The common misstatement "he violated the license" must be translated as, "he failed to meet the conditions of the license, therefore had no license, therefore had no right to (copy, use, etc.)." Sometimes it means, alternatively, "He did more than the license he cited permitted him to do."

A covenant is even more straightforward because a covenant cannot have conditions. "Covenant" is a legal synonym for "promise." A covenant from Person A to Person B does not restrict Person B in any way. There's no such thing as accepting or rejecting a covenant.

So the GPL example means to say, "if someone has a patent right to stop you from distributing the code and he licenses you to distribute it only without all these GPL rights, then you cannot distribute the code."

Covenants, licenses, and GPL virality

Posted Nov 9, 2006 23:32 UTC (Thu) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

So the GPL example means to say, "if someone has a patent right to stop you from distributing the code and he licenses you to distribute it only without all these GPL rights, then you cannot distribute the code."

Uh-huh. My premise is that the agreement between Novell and Microsoft to grant covenants to each others customers - which is a separate document from the covenants - is tantamount to the establishment of a patent license between the two companies. It is made to appear to be something else than a license for the explicit purpose of circumventing the terms of the GPL. It's clearly outside of the spirit of the GPL, and possibly outside of the letter.

Certainly it is outside of the spirit of the GPL and all people who have GPL code in Novell's distribution should be offended. Moglen commented that even if this does clear the GPL terms by a milimeter (which he has not yet determined), GPL3 will be written so that nothing like this can get by it.

Bruce

Covenants, licenses, and GPL virality

Posted Nov 10, 2006 1:33 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I must be missing something very basic in your argument or in the Microsoft-Novell arrangement. Because of the Microsoft-Novell agreement, a SUSE customer gets all the GPL liberties, courtesy of a copyright license from Novell and every other Linux copyright holder, plus the liberty to use any Microsoft patents that might be involved in using SUSE, plus doesn't even have to worry about defending those rights because Microsoft promises not even to sue.

The patent license example in GPL is inapplicable, since any patent rights Microsoft might have had to stop a Novell customer from distributing SUSE are unconditionally waived by Microsoft.

Where is the spirit or letter of GPL offended here?

Even if the agreement used a conventional patent license from MS to Novell, sublicensed by Novell to Novell customers, I don't see any problem. So what's being circumvented?

Covenants, licenses, and GPL virality

Posted Nov 10, 2006 2:10 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Where is the spirit or letter of GPL offended here?

The spirit of the patent language in the GPL is that we all hang together lest we each hang separately.

Any patent rights in connection with the software must be granted to everyone, not to one party while excluding another party. This is done with the strategic goal of making GPL software usable by everyone, using the tactic of prohibiting anyone from negotiating a patent solution that applies only to their business. If you want to benefit from the work of the community (in the GPL software), anything you do about patent rights must help to protect the entire community from patents.

The agreement between Novell and Microsoft that is mentioned in the form 8K appears to have the intent of circumventing that language of the GPL. If it did not, the two companies would not have used this odd structure of directly granting covenants to each others customers and not licenses to each other.

The premise of the use of covenants in this case is that when party A agrees not to exercise its rights against party B, we're supposed to believe a legal fiction that this is not a grant of any rights to party B.

Bruce

Covenants, licenses, and GPL virality

Posted Nov 10, 2006 2:16 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Just to make sure you're clear about this: The covenant might allow a SuSE customer to redistribute, but it does not apply to the person to whom the SuSE customer redistributes. That's important - if one SuSE customer could pass the patent right granted by the covenant to everyone through a chain of distribution and redistribution, the GPL objection we are discussing would not apply.

Bruce

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 0:26 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

Perhaps they have a patent license for royalty-free redistribution of any GPL work by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through Novell. That doesn't mean that anyone has a patent license for royalty-free use of those works. (Or that Microsoft hasn't given such a license to Novell and all of its direct customers.) And the GPL doesn't even cover running programs, which is a fair use right under copyright law, but requires a license for patents.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 0:41 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Perhaps they have a patent license for royalty-free redistribution of any GPL work by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through Novell.

Well, they've already said it doesn't work that way. They get Microsoft to issue a covenant not to sue to every Novell customer.

But if they did have the sort of license you describe, the whole world could hitch-hike upon it, including Red Hat.

Perhaps they have a patent license for royalty-free redistribution of any GPL work by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through Novell.

The GPL says "The act of running the program is not restricted" and the language which places activities like use out of its scope is meant to say that those activities are not restricted. Elsewhere in the license is language that does not allow further restrictions upon GPL software, be they for running or any other purpose. So, I don't think a judge would rule that a patent license that allowed distribution but not running would be within the terms of the GPL.

Bruce

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 0:45 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Oops. I garbled above. Strike the last two paragraphs and here's the correction:

And the GPL doesn't even cover running programs, which is a fair use right under copyright law, but requires a license for patents.

The GPL says "The act of running the program is not restricted" and the language which places activities like use out of its scope is meant to say that those activities are not restricted. Elsewhere in the license is language that does not allow further restrictions upon GPL software, be they for running or any other purpose. So, I don't think a judge would rule that a patent license that allowed distribution but not running would be within the terms of the GPL.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 8, 2006 21:15 UTC (Wed) by pimlott (guest, #1535) [Link]

Bruce, the license text you cited is a "for example", expressly meant to clarify what was already implied. Your position would be stronger if you could argue it from the rest of the license. I claim that you cannot, because the author of the GPLv2 blundered: This "example" does not follow from the rest of the license, and is therefore void. I have stated this case before [cite] [cite] and never gotten a satisfactory answer. I also contributed it to the GPLv3 comment process, [cite] [cite], because I believe v3 section 12 has the same problem as v2 section 7; I also just noticed Alexander Oliva's cunning observation of what it might mean for SUSE customers.

In short, I concur with iabervon's position. I also find it disappointing that the FSF and Eben Moglen continue to assert their interpretation of v2 section 7 without ever justifying it, and that they have not responded to criticism of v3 section 12.

The current draft of GPLv3 does contain explicit language (section 11) that would, I believe, be usable against Novell, and this is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. However, this only strengthens my belief that GPLv2 is lacking in this regard. But I would be happy to be convinced otherwise.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 9, 2006 19:33 UTC (Thu) by Fats (guest, #14882) [Link]

I think that if FSF wished to, it could enjoin Novell from distributing GNU LIBC under the covenants it has entered into. Perhaps Red Hat would like to fund that suit
I disagree, I think they can only stop Novell from distributing GLIBC under a GPL license if there is really a problem in the code. And if they can stop Novell from distributing it they also have to stop distributing it because they can't guarantee anymore everyone the right to distribute it under the GPL. A catch 22.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 10, 2006 0:27 UTC (Fri) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Well, by a problem you mean a patent infringement. Their best approach would be to find a granted patent that reads on code that is in LIBC but that we can do without, and for which the Laches defense applies, and then bring suit upon Novell demanding that everyone must get the same treatement as a Novell customer - or Novell must stop distributing.

This is all assuming that we can convince a judge that the agreement between Novell and Microsoft - not the covenants that result from that agreement - is tantamount to a license.

Bruce

New detail published

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:04 UTC (Tue) by pzb (guest, #656) [Link]

Novell just posted new material about the agreement:

A second FAQ (http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html)
Financial details (http://www.novell.com/news/press/item.jsp?id=1199)
and a statement on OpenDocument and OpenOffice.org (http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/fileformats.html)

New detail published

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:42 UTC (Tue) by nas (subscriber, #17) [Link]

Hmm,

Novell's end user customers receive a covenant not to sue directly from Microsoft for their use of Novell products and services, but these activities are outside the scope of the GPL.

It seems to me they are walking a very fine line here. They want to brag about Novell customers gaining some advantage due to the patent portions of this agreement without invalidating their right to use GPLed code. I think they should give up on this particular point, it's not going to gain them any converts from Red Hat.

BTW, I don't see why engagement with Microsoft is inevitable. The free software world has done pretty well so far on it's own. I wouldn't rule out some kind of cooperation in the future but so far I don't see any sign that Microsoft should be trusted.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:35 UTC (Tue) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link]

There have been numerous flame wars in the past regarding Mono over its attempt to clone Microsoft technology. Nevertheless, these were just technology issues and it is hard to justify that Miguel "loves" Microsoft as it was sometimes claimed.

But this time, Miguel played a major role in Novell's cooperation with Microsoft. After this MS/Novell deal people's view of Miguel de Icaza would be hard to change...

Miguel...

Posted Nov 7, 2006 23:58 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

It seems that these days Miguel just wants to code. He wants to do the best programming possible, using the best tools possible, and leave the lawyering to someone else.

Many would consider this a laudable sentiment. Indeed, I think Linus indulges in this too, and lots of programmers would rather that the world outside of their cubicles would not intrude on their programming.

But there is a world out there, and refusal to confront it means that you will eventually paint your users and your community into a corner through your own refusal to strategize around real problems.

The ironic thing is that Miguel came to notoriety in our community for leading the technical project that was created to replace the (then) non-Open-Source Qt GUI toolkit in the Linux desktop.

On the other hand, I don't believe that either Miguel or Nat would have been successful in getting Novell to refrain from entering into this quarter-Billion-dollar deal, given that Novell Linux hasn't ever really gained any traction.

Bruce

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 2:43 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Miguel said himself in his blog that he had absolutely no dealings with this at all. They didn't tell him what was going on anymore then they told any of the other Linux developers. I don't know about all of them, but the linux developers working for Novell that commented about this on their blogs stated the same thing and it was that they weren't told about the deal until a few days before Novell was planning on announcing it.

I am pretty sure that this is purely upper management move and didn't involve any Linux developers.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 6:22 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Aren't both Nat and Miguel vice presidents now? That makes them upper management! I believe them if they say they didn't know ahead of time but why wouldn't they be consulted before making this high-profile deal?

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 9:15 UTC (Wed) by jhellan (guest, #17103) [Link]

> Aren't both Nat and Miguel vice presidents now? That makes them upper
> management!

Not at all. I mean, they very well could be, but you can't tell from the title. You put 'vice president' on people's business cards to impress and get access to people outside your company.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 6:56 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Miguel said himself in his blog that he had absolutely no dealings with this at all.

Yes. But there was no time at which Miguel should ever have thought that deriving substantially from a Microsoft design in a product which he intended to integrate into GNOME was a good idea. Fortunately, most GNOME developers were smarter than Miguel about this, and stayed away from Mono.

At least this has finally driven Sun to GPL Java as a play against C# and Mono.

Bruce

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 10:18 UTC (Wed) by daniel (guest, #3181) [Link]

I don't believe that either Miguel or Nat would have been successful in getting Novell to refrain from entering into this quarter-Billion-dollar deal, given that Novell Linux hasn't ever really gained any traction.

Bruce, you are being too kind to Miguel, who has already acted as a public apologist for this baldfaced sellout. Compliments for the restraint.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 18:18 UTC (Wed) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

Imagine if RMS had opted to do programming and left the lawyering to someone else? Or, worse, had not bothered to act on his principles at all?

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 19:04 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link]

Now, if we could only get Linus to show some backbone.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 10, 2006 21:38 UTC (Fri) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]

"""Imagine if RMS had opted to do programming and left the lawyering to someone else? Or, worse, had not bothered to act on his principles at all?"""

We might have been in a better position today.

Open collaboration is a phenomenon of an easily accessible internet, not of Richard. It would have happened with or without him.

Why do some people fail to see that?

GPL has been a helpful license. However, many projects have prospered with other licensing. (Apache, et. al.)

When technical things are done with goals in mind which are primarily political, there is a price to pay.

Compare HURD to Linux, for example.

Stallmans's best avenue for the success of his movement would be to simply finish up HURD and upstage "Linux" with the benefits of GNU/OS. After all, the kernel is the only bit of software that FSF lacks, right?

Instead, since he doesn't seem to see HURD as a credible contender, he resorts to insisting that his project's name be tacked onto the names of relatively successful Linux distros. If his movement were really a success, he would not have to resort to such embarrassing tactics.

So, if Stallman had stuck to the technical and left the lawyering to someone else, we might or might not have some good software that we don't have today. Stallman would not have become so well known within the community. (Don't discount this as a major motivation.) And we really don't know where we would be today if Stallman had not developed such a taste for the limelight.

Overall, I'd say we've done pretty well as thing are. But please don't overemphasize the role of Stallman in the history of open collaboration on the internet.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 17, 2006 0:35 UTC (Fri) by quintesse (guest, #14569) [Link]

You do realize that Linux is GPL as well, don't you? And that you're
taking one "failed" example out of many successful GNU projects.

But anyway, what I think we owe Stallman for is that fact that he
actually made us THINK about the licenses we use. So yes, there's more
than just the GPL around, but they are there exactly because people saw
the success of GPL projects and the benefits of a GPL license, but they
just didn't agree with the ideas behind it so they made their own.

Sometimes making people stop and think is the only thing that is
necessary.

Is he the only one to do that? Of course not. Was he the first? Very
likely not. But as with many things in history sometimes the acts of
others are forgotten because one comes along that embodies everything
that they stand for.

You say that we might have been in a better position today, by the same
reasoning (which is none, because I don't seen anything to support what
you say) we could have been in a much worse position.

Because I have no idea how old you are, but I can tell you that people
where collaborating quite nicely even before existence of (or easy access
to) the Internet. Before that, you either just kept your code to
yourself, sold it or made it freeware or shareware.

The Internet has of course made collaborating with a large number of
people on large projects a lot easier but don't think it didn't happen
before.

But the whole licensing thing was just plain chaos in the free/shareware
scene, basically everybody just made up his own and there was not much
thought put into it. No direction, no ideals.

So in that aspect I think RMS (and some others like him) woke us up and
made us THINK about our licenses. And if that includes people thinking
that RMS stinks and that they'd rather sell their mother than ever use a
GPL license for their code, well more power to them.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 8, 2006 8:38 UTC (Wed) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

Are you sure that Miguel had anything to do with this? It read that as an accusation, and it would be unfortunate if you just made it up.

Miguel...

Posted Nov 14, 2006 9:16 UTC (Tue) by massimiliano (subscriber, #3048) [Link]

Don't assume things you don't know.

Specifically, how do you know that Miguel played a major role in this deal?
Not that this matters much, anyway he is happy for the deal... but it is higly likely that he would have pushed for broader coverage of the "covenant" (I mean, not just Novell's customers).

Also, Miguel never said "now Mono is safe to use": he explicitly said that we still commit to shipping code that does not infringe patents, because Mono is a community project, and this policy is not changed by the Novell-Microsoft deal.
IMHO, this deal was meant to remove some FUD around Linux... and now, can you imagine Microsoft on one hand distributing Novell coupons for Suse support, and on the other hand saying that "Linux is a cancer"?
It is sad that now it is the "community" itself that is feeding the FUD...

BTW, I said "we" because I work on Mono, but of course this post represents my personal opinions and not Novell'd ones.

OIN patents

Posted Nov 8, 2006 2:49 UTC (Wed) by mitchskin (guest, #32405) [Link]

It would seem, however, from an inexpert reading, that the relevant patents have been truly assigned to OIN, and are no longer Novell's to non-license to anybody. If that reading is correct, then OIN's position is just as strong as it was before.
I'm also inexpert, but I'm not sure about this. On OIN's site the list of patents labeled "Open Invention Network's Currently Owned Patents" does include some of the Commerce One patents that have been mentioned as being OINs big guns. On the other hand, that list only has 13 patents on it, and Novell bought 39 Commerce One patents. What happened to the others? Are they important at all?

I spent some time on the USPTO web site searching for "commerce one", and "jgr acquisition" (the entity Novell used to secretly buy the patents), but I haven't tried to read through them all. It would be nice if Novell made some clear public statements on this one but I wouldn't be surprised if they left us in the dark.

OIN patents

Posted Nov 9, 2006 0:38 UTC (Thu) by garloff (subscriber, #319) [Link]

It's my understanding that the patents really have been assigned to OIN.
And Novell wants OIN to have its full defensive effectiveness.
Against any attacker, which might include MSFT -- though Novell would
not expect MSFT to get into aggressive patent litigation -- now less than
before.

On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 9, 2006 10:30 UTC (Thu) by andypep (guest, #33588) [Link]

I see this deal as about the future, not the present or past. I think that
MS is being pressured by its customers to do more for interoperability
with Linux, and has come to realise that Linux is here to stay for at
least the medium term. However, the only asset MS has is its IP, so it
cannot (in its eyes) release it in any form.

I'm not a developer, so perhaps you could comment on this is a potential
scenario. Let's say that MS writes its own version of Samba, with its own
code, and inserts it into a Suse distribution through separate processes
and clean interfaces, so that it is not GPL encumbered in any way, but is
under an MS license. Let's call it Mamba, for convenience.

Mamba will contain MS IP, and let's assume it's protected by patents. So
Suse can ship to its customers with no problem. It can even add GPL code
to the kernel to interface to Mamba, but no one else in the community
could get access to Mamba. Of course, the implementation is much better
than Samba because of the extra code that MS can supply. Novell can see
that it gives them a gain among corporations by being able to offer better
interoperation than Redhat that is not protected by this deal.

This enables MS to divide the Linux suppliers into 2 camps, and divide and
rule is the game here. They can also claim to Europe that they are doing
something for interoperability - look go get Suse from Novell.

If this is possible, I hope it doesn't happen. We can't afford to split
under this type of pressure, only under technical and quality pressures.


On Novell and Microsoft

Posted Nov 10, 2006 21:35 UTC (Fri) by oak (guest, #2786) [Link]

Well, another way to read this deal is that MicroSoft wouldn't want
there to be one big Linux company, but rather more smaller ones.
And it's managing this by helping the "next from the biggest" Linux
company/ies.

That's propably not very efficient strategy as because of Open Source,
it's much easier for Linux companies to collaborate to achieve similar
effect that a larger company would have.


I think MicroSoft could also see thoroughly Free Software -world more
threatening than mix of Free Software with proprietary software.
In former there is no place for proprietary software that MS
represents!

Therefore MicroSoft can try to corrupt the competition from the Free
Software movement by inducing / helping mixed distributions to include
their proprietary software; codecs etc. I.e. "train" Linux users to
accept their closed formats / proprietary software. This way they can
guarantee that the Free Software and open formats won't win the day
(completely) and they can still collect their royalties.


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