Striking gold in binutils

Posted Mar 27, 2008 7:09 UTC (Thu) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link]

If the metric is easier development because the language provides more sugar for certain patterns, how do you justify not using Java or C#?

I can't find in my earlier post where I said I didn't use Java. In fact, I do from time to time. My earlier post was about why I'm such a fan of C++ - and how I can still enjoy all the benefits of both C and C++, even in the same program.

However, I take exception to your implication that Java provides competitive "sugar" to C++. Consider the following example of reading an integer from a file:

C++

int x;
ifstream in_file;
in_file.open("foo.txt");
assert(in_file);
in_file >> x;

Java

int x;
String line;
try {
  FileReader fr = new FileReader("foo.txt");
  BufferedReader br = new BufferedReader(fr);
  line = br.readLine();
  x = parseInt(line);
}
catch (Exception e) {
}

Not more sugar, IMO. Yes, I do realize that Java has to abstract a lot of file I/O due to the fact that it supports multi-byte character sets on dozens of architectures with different byte orders and file systems, thus explaining the syntactic "salt". But, still, even the C version is pretty simple:

C

int x;
FILE* in_file;
in_file = fopen("foo.txt", "r");
assert(in_file);
fscanf(in_file, "%d", &x);

But again, I'm not trying to dismiss Java, only to provide a counter example of where Java fails to provide any programming benefit over C++. Actually, the C and C++ examples above would likely only work on ASCII or UTF-8 filesystems, but Java's UTF-16 support is native to the language¹. So, Java gets to tell C and C++ what "portability" means (even if the programmer has to dig through 67 layers of abstraction to accomplish what he/she set out to do). ;-)

As for C#, well, despite my own thoughts about Microsoft getting in the way, I just don't see why C# even needs to exist. Microsoft was actively marketing Java development suites and compilers in the mid- and late-1990s (Visual J++, anyone?), adding their own APIs and language features, until Sun Microsystems had the guts to stand up to MS and tell them to stop violating the terms of Sun's license (with a successful lawsuit). It was all sour grapes for MS afterwards, so they just had to go run out and create their own Java imitation. C'mon, Microsoft, you already had legions of Visual Basic programmers! Why go out and create a whole new language when there are so many already out there? Was it because Visual Basic wasn't "Java-like" enough?

Not that I think C# is a bad language; it does have some interesting features. But, I get this strange feeling that C# skills will be useless come five years from now, just like Visual Basic skills are in much less demand than they were five years ago.

As for coding C#, well, I abandoned MS Windows four years ago for a single-boot Linux. And the only native C# compiler for Linux I know of is Mono. Which causes anomalous behavior on my Slackware machines. Come to find out Mono has library dependency issues with my current toolchain and dynamic linker. In other words, I experienced DLL HELL in Linux², simply by installing Mono (version 1.24) in Slackware 12. How ironic this is considering I'm trying to write Windows applications in Linux. I suppose the gratuitous DLL hell is all part of the Microsoft "experience" I'm supposed to get whilst writing C# code. No thank you.

I mostly agree with the rest of your post - I do indeed like C's portability (hey, it was one of the core motivations for creating the language to begin with), and I also like its efficiency. I can't say that adding garbage collection to C++ would be worthwhile; Even Bjarne Stroustrup labored over whether to include garbage collection in C++ back in the early 1980s.

My personal thoughts are that garbage collection built-in to the programming language would send several mixed messages to programmers using that language:

• "I don't have to worry about freeing up allocated memory, since the GC will do it for me. This activity doesn't slow down my program, does it?"
• "Since I don't have to worry about keeping track of run-time allocations (why bother? The GC will clean up my mess for me!), I can indulge my code by generously overestimating allocation space. Who cares about the mess to be cleaned up after the party? That's what the GC is for."
• "I've been writing frugal, tidy, and efficient code for years by judiciously managing my run-time allocations. How come all of the sudden I don't have control over this anymore? What if I don't agree with the GC strategy? Can't I disable it completely and manage my own memory usage? After all, I'm quite good at it."

(And Boehm better not be on the line.)

I LOLed at your comment. I downloaded a source tarball several months ago (I forget which program/application) that had a Boehm GC dependency. I thought to myself, C++ doesn't have garbage collection for a reason, but why does this particular project feel that it needs to slather a layer of protection over the code? Are the programmers lazy? Or, do they not know how to use new and delete?

When C++ gets garbage collection and closures, call me.

Perhaps some of your garbage collection needs could be met by using the C++ standard library container classes (e.g., vector, list, deque, etc.). Or, more appropriately stated, your need for a GC to begin with could be eliminated. But, perhaps that's a discussion for another time. I've rambled on long enough, it's been fun pontificating and bloviating (to quote one of my graduate professors). :-)

¹ C++ does have explicit support for multi-byte character sets with its wchar_t type. I don't know what kind of support C has in this regards, or if it supports multi-byte characters at all.

² I'll openly admit that Microsoft unfairly receives the brunt of user frustration over DLL hell when in reality the basic concept of library dependency hell is a Unix creation which predates DLL files by several years.

Posted Mar 27, 2008 10:03 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

If the metric is easier development because the language provides more sugar for certain patterns, how do you justify not using Java or C#?

Java and C# are using virtual machines and thus are slower. End of story. C is closer to the metal, but suffers from human problem: it's not feasible to generate 10'000 specialization by hand. You need some metaprogramming. If you'll take a look on really fast "C libraries" (like FFTW or ATLAS) you'll find out that while they include bunch of .c files these .c files are not the source! They itself are generated by some automatic process. C++ allows you to do something similar without using yet-another-specialized system (STL and especially boost are big help, but simple template metaprogramming works as well in simple cases). Thus in practice C++ programs written by good programmers are faster then C programs (if you turn of rtti and exceptions, of course). AFAICS this was reason for C++ usage in gold, too.

Of course it's very easy to misuse C++, too...

Posted Mar 28, 2008 17:20 UTC (Fri) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link]

Actually, I'm working on making tinycc (a project derived from tcc) compile the rest of the
stack, including the kernel.  I have rather a lot of work left to do, of course. :)

http://landley.net/code/tinycc

I find gold interesting, but not useful in my case because tinycc's linker is built-in.  (I'm
reorganizing the code to work as a "swiss army knife" executable ala busybox, but that's not
in -pre2.  Maybe -pre3.)

As for the kernel, the linux-tiny project is working on getting that more modular so we need
to select less of it...

Rob

Posted Mar 28, 2008 3:45 UTC (Fri) by pflugstad (subscriber, #224) [Link]

Also, TCMalloc doesn't return memory to the kernel at all, while GNU libc's does.  

Posted Apr 2, 2008 19:51 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Ah, the last refuge of the erroneous.

Sorry, the onus is on *you*: you're the one making the exaggerated claims.

Posted Mar 27, 2008 7:56 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

Compare C:

error_t foo() {
  char * blah;
  error_t e = bar(blah);
  if (!e)
    return e;
  e = baz();
  if (!e) {
    free(blah);
    return e;
  }
  /* ... */
}

void foo() {
  std::string blah = bar();
  baz();
  ...
}

Posted Mar 27, 2008 20:40 UTC (Thu) by pphaneuf (guest, #23480) [Link]

You get a once per function (and thus, amortized better and better with the longer the function) setup and teardown that registers destructors. If there are no destructors, it simply can be left out. Even a "just crash" approach involves one test and branch per possible failure point.

On modern processors, having branches is expensive, due to mis-predicting them. I suspect that's one of the reasons that profile-driven optimizers can be so good, is that they can figure out which side of a branch is more likely. In the case of error-handling, which branch is more likely would be readily obvious to a human, but is harder to do for a compiler (see the annotations available in GCC, used by the Linux kernel code).

The code size increases with error-handling code, often with "dead spots" that get jumped over when there are no error, which on todays faster and faster machines, means increased instruction cache usage, less locality and so on.

I don't doubt that when they happen, C++ exceptions might be more expensive, but the thing with exception is that they don't happen often, and thus, that's the most interesting case.

Posted Mar 27, 2008 20:56 UTC (Thu) by pphaneuf (guest, #23480) [Link]

From my experience, the more common thing is not really try/catch, but letting the exception bubble up. Basically, you just want to clean up and tell your caller something went wrong.

We'll agree that if there is a clean up to do, it's probably equally there in C and in C++, right? The "big saving" in C++ is in the case where you just clean up and bubble up the exception. If a function doesn't have cleaning up to do, it doesn't even go in that function at all!

As they say, the fastest way to do something is to not do it.

Posted Mar 27, 2008 21:04 UTC (Thu) by wahern (subscriber, #37304) [Link]

I forgot to test multiple calls in the same try{} block. Indeed, for every additional
back-to-back call C needs an additional two instructions (test+jump). So, for moderately long
functions, w/ a single try{} block and lots of calls to some small set of functions, I can see
C++ being faster. The trick is that you don't want the fixed-costs to exceed the gains, of
course. In the above example, C++ pulls ahead at the 4th call to noargs().

It would be an interesting exercise to count the number of function definitions, and functions
call in my code, and multiple by the respective differences of C and C++. But, it seems
complicated by the treatment of blocks in C++. I can see how in some tests C++ came out 15%
ahead, though.

In any event, there is indeed a fixed-cost to C++ exceptions. There might not be a prologue,
but the epilogue is invariably longer for functions, and, apparently, some blocks.

Posted Mar 27, 2008 22:28 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

For the record, nothing about exceptions in the C++ standard or common implementation methods
interferes with inlining.  In practice, the body of an inlined function is just merged into
the body of whatever non-inline function it's expanded in.

The only place where exceptions interfere with optimization is in that the state of a function
context at a call site must be discoverable by the stack unwinder, so it can know which
objects' destructors have to run.  In practice this means that calls in short-circuited
expressions, e.g. "if (a() && b()) ...", sometimes also set a flag: "if (a() && ((_f=1),b()))
...".  This only happens if b() returns an object with a destructor, i.e. rarely.

Posted Mar 29, 2008 7:56 UTC (Sat) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

It's no crime not to like any particular language.  (Lord knows I loathe my share of them.)
When you have to invent one falsehood after another to justify your dislike, though, it makes
you look silly, or dishonest.  I know of plenty to dislike in C++; they tend to be
inconveniences in features entirely lacking in other languages.

But, for the record...  Lexical scoping, we have.  Tail recursion?  Pass; over twenty-five
years using C and C++, every time I have been tempted to leave a tail recursion in my code,
changing it to explicit looping has turned out to make the code clearer and more maintainable.
(Certainly there are languages that do or would benefit from it, but C and C++ seem not to
need it.)  Nested "methods"? Coming, more or less, in C++09.  Also coming are mutexes and
atomics, but more important is that they can be built into whatever higher-level apparatus you
prefer.

The great lesson of C was that anything you can build into a library, you are better off
without in the core language.  (For C, particularly, that was I/O.  People miss how
revolutionary that was thought, then.)  C++09 adds enormous power for library writers, to
enable easier-to-use libraries, which will in turn make the language markedly more competitive
against scripting languages. 

Posted Apr 7, 2008 0:49 UTC (Mon) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link]

how do you dynamically allocate/deallocate memory?

A big push for "modern" C++ programming is to use the standard library's container classes, e.g., vector, list, deque, etc. instead of arrays created with new and delete.

The primary rationale for using dynamically-allocated memory in the first place is to defer until execution time reserving only as much space as is needed (since memory is a scarce resource). The C++ containers have a rich set of methods which allow array-like operation while managing the dynamic allocation (and subsequent releasing) of resources at the library level (instead of making the programmer do it him/herself with new and delete).

I can't speak for why virtual methods are seldom described in literature, but my intuitive perception is that they're this philosophical concept in computer science (object-oriented programming in particular) whose existence programmers are expected to know but avoid using unless no other practical solution exists--kind of like recursion.

Posted Mar 29, 2008 7:30 UTC (Sat) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

FSMs are trivial in languages with tail-call optimization (Lisp et. al., ML, Haskell .. even
Lua!). It is true, though, that most of these languages are not geared towards low-level bit
manipulation.

C--, perhaps. It's a C-like language used by the Haskell team as their intermediate language,
a sort of souped-up assembler.