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A creative example of the value of free drivers

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By Jonathan Corbet
March 30, 2008
Free operating systems differ from the proprietary variety in a number of ways. One of the differences which is most evident to all users is in the provision of device drivers. With free systems, device drivers are free software, provided with the system itself. Proprietary systems tend to provide relatively few drivers; instead, proprietary drivers are shipped with the hardware itself and installed separately. Anybody who wonders about which model works better would be well advised to look at the events of March 28, when Creative Labs shut down an outside developer who had been working to improve Creative's drivers.

Creative is, of course, a long-time manufacturer of audio hardware. Opinions vary on the quality of that hardware, but there can be no doubt that Creative has been successful in this market. Creative's customers have found, though, that moving to Vista has been an unusually painful experience, even by the standards of that particular system. It seems that Creative's drivers have failed to provide the same level of functionality found in previous versions, leaving customers with crippled hardware. Strangely enough, said customers have not been entirely pleased with this state of affairs.

Enter a developer called "Daniel_K". Daniel took the time to figure out how the hardware worked and to patch Creative's drivers to, once again, provide access to the full capability of the hardware. He then made those drivers available to others. Creative hardware owners were happy about this: somebody had finally managed to solve the problems they had been complaining about. One would have expected Creative to be happy too; happy customers tend to be good for business.

That's not the way of it, though. Instead, Creative removed links to the fixed drivers from its forums and posted a public cease-and-desist letter. According to Creative's Phil O'Shaughnessy:

By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods. When you solicit donations for providing packages like this, you are profiting from something that you do not own. If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make.

There can be little doubt that Creative is operating within its legal rights here. It has retained proprietary rights to its driver software, and it has imposed the usual sort of "thou shalt not reverse engineer" EULA on its users. So, while Daniel_K may (or may not) have been able to legally reverse engineer the driver (depending on his location), he almost certainly did not have the right to redistribute modified versions of Creative's drivers. Asking for donations to help him continue this activity will not have made him any friends at Creative either. When dealing with other peoples' proprietary software in this manner, one should not be surprised to get shutdown notices.

Creative may be on solid ground legally, but it still makes sense to look at what is going on here. One might have attributed the driver problems to a lack of competence at Creative, or, perhaps, to the general sort of misery that (your editor has heard) goes along with Vista. Instead, Creative's crippled drivers were the result of a "business decision." Rather than allow its customers to get the most out of the hardware they thought they owned, Creative decided to restrict that functionality, presumably as a way of motivating those customers to buy newer, shinier, better-supported hardware. Daniel_K, by making Creative's customers happier, was threatening Creative's chosen business strategy.

Now consider a company whose hardware is supported by free drivers. That company lacks the ability to use crippled drivers as a tool to "encourage" customers to replace their hardware. Instead, that company has every incentive to provide the best hardware possible and to ensure that said hardware works to its fullest capability. Such a company would welcome an outsider who made their products work better; those outsiders would be more likely to receive job offers than cease-and-desist letters. Rather than calling out the lawyers, this company could focus on the business of being a hardware company.

Your editor knows which sort of company he would (and does) choose to buy hardware from. Free drivers are not just a path toward higher-quality support, though that is typically the result. They are not just a way to help ensure that the kernel as a whole remains stable and debuggable. And free drivers are not just a way to help ensure that all can learn and benefit from the work which was done to get the hardware working. They are also a way to avoid the threat of manipulation by hardware vendors who have decided that providing the best value for customers is no longer a winning business strategy. That is a sort of freedom which is worth having.


(Log in to post comments)

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Mar 30, 2008 22:48 UTC (Sun) by briangmaddox (guest, #39279) [Link]

I think this is just an indicator of how things are going downhill in the US due to things
like software patents and our seeming obsession with having more lawyers per capita than
anywhere else in the universe.  

The interesting thing is that companies either don't know this is hurting their businesses or
don't care.  Creative isn't the player it used to be (which admittedly doesn't bother me after
going through the Live vs. VIA problem).  Even BillG isn't the world's richest man anymore
thanks to Microsoft's stock slipping due to things like Vista and investors starting to wise
up.  We're already consumers of things instead of innovators and producers.  Give it time and
the EU and Asia will own us more than they do now.

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 12:56 UTC (Mon) by peterhoeg (guest, #4944) [Link]

Creative is a Singaporean company so it can hardly be considered an indicator of how things
are going downhill in the US. 

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 17:45 UTC (Mon) by ajross (guest, #4563) [Link]

Nor is this kind of behavior a recent invention, sadly.  The problem is endemic, and sad, but
not a great example of the collapse of society.

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 0:29 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

Nor is it an example of software patents. Creative's strategy here is based on trade secrets and copyright.

Lawsuits might be pointed the other way

Posted Mar 30, 2008 22:59 UTC (Sun) by dark (guest, #8483) [Link]

When Creative sold these cards, did they advertise the features that they have now disabled on Vista? The customers might have grounds for a lawsuit on that point. Creative could try to argue that the cards were sold as compatible only with XP and not with Vista, but I don't think that will be very convincing now that they have admitted that crippling the cards was a deliberate decision.

Lawsuits might be pointed the other way

Posted Mar 31, 2008 6:42 UTC (Mon) by yodermk (guest, #3803) [Link]

I doubt it.  A "business decision" does not legally negate that the features were advertised
to work with XP.

Lawsuits might be pointed the other way

Posted Mar 31, 2008 9:39 UTC (Mon) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link]

I wouldn't be surprised if they just advertised the features and listed "minimum system
requirements".  I doubt they'd advertise a card as supporting exactly one version of Windows.

Lawsuits might be pointed the other way

Posted Mar 31, 2008 11:21 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I doubt they'd advertise a card as supporting exactly one version of Windows.

Why not? How is it different from supporting exactly one OS?

Lawsuits might be pointed the other way

Posted Mar 31, 2008 9:10 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Microsoft made substantial changes to the Vista audio API, both in in terms of application API
and in terms of driver API. Plus they added additional restrictions on hardware manufacturers
in terms of things like signed binaries and DRM support. 

Microsoft calls their new audio stuff 'Wave RT'

Ostensively Microsoft made these changes to bring improvements to it's system in terms of
media playback capabilities. Lower latency, better multichannel support, better syncing, lower
resource usage, and that sort of stuff. As well as making their OS more DRM friendly to
support a potential equivalent of 'iTunes for Video'.

This is a big bone of contention between Creative and Microsoft. As a side effect of all of
this Microsoft decided to eliminated the kernel's ability to use hardware to accelerate it's
DirectSound 3D. So Creative is trying to get people to use OpenAL so that they can do their
own drivers for Vista that enable hardware acceleration.

The whole market around Creative stemmed from the fact it was the 'Gamers' card. It was the
only card you could get that had full acceleration and supported all the audio features for
games. It was never the cheapest, and there were cards priced less that were better for audio
editing, but only Creative supported EAX. (and Creative used it's extensive software patent
portfolio to force game makers to support EAX and advertise support for it in their games.)

(personally I think this sort of EAX thing is mostly pointless on modern hardware, especially
hardware with multicore cpus. The 'HDA' standard for onboard sound is probably just as good
when combined with software 3D proccessing as Creative's expensive hardware)


http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?boa...

"Creative ALchemy - DirectSound 3D is now possible in Vista!"
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=7719

"John Carmack: "This sucks.""
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20040728-4048.html


This dispute with the modder is probably a combination of him asking for money for Creative's
software, some exec's getting all offended that he is violating the EULA, and him disrupting
Creative's attempts to influence the future direction on game design and irritating Microsoft.


It's kinda difficult for Creative to try to get the gaming community irritated at Microsoft
for getting rid of their HAL for DirectSound3D when you have some joker coming around and
hacking 'fixes' into binaries.

Problem with the audio market

Posted Mar 30, 2008 23:20 UTC (Sun) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

As far as I can tell, the computer audio market is splitting. Most customers can get by with the "good enough" sound on the motherboard, and people who want high-end sound are going with USB Audio or FireWire products, which get the signals that you want to be clean out of the electromagnetically noisy environment of the computer case. So Creative Labs, with what used to be the "mainstream" product is getting squeezed, and IT vendors usually express their market fears in the form of sqealing about "intellectual property." I think we can safely translate Phil O'Shaughnessy's comment into modern Internet speak, as follows: WE R TEH FAIL KTHXBYE.

Problem with the audio market

Posted Mar 31, 2008 9:15 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

The HDA standard is a huge improvement over the Ac'97 stuff.

I think that firewire and USB stuff is mostly todo with the fact that is the only realy easy
way to improve the audio quality of laptops and such. If your going to do DJ stuff then it's
not practical to carry around a PC tower with a half dozen audio connectors hanging out the
back. And anyways the Macbooks and such are a nice fashion accessory for people who do that
sort of thing.

I still expect that they still cause problems in terms of latency and such.


One more for the "proprietary drivers bad" file

Posted Mar 30, 2008 23:54 UTC (Sun) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Vista-capable lawsuit paints picture of buggy NVIDIA drivers: "NVIDIA drivers were identified as the cause of over 479,000 crashes, or just under 29 percent of all the crashes Microsoft logged."

Drivers and 3rd-party vendor software bugs

Posted Apr 1, 2008 2:39 UTC (Tue) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link]

When programs grovel into undocumented structures...

I know, I know! It's a MSDN blog page, but Raymond Chen's three anecdotes only seem to highlight the problem of how proprietary software lends itself to unreliability. Some of the back-door, sneaky techniques the ISVs pull off just to get their software working in Windows seem utterly surreal (C'mon, reaching up the stack? They're just begging for a segmentation fault or a blue screen!). I suppose NVIDIA's "bugs" are equally their blame as Microsoft's, because certainly it's behavior like that described on Chen's blog--relying on undocumented ABIs/APIs--that hardware companies and ISVs put in their Windows-based software.

Back to Creative, I personally think their PR and marketing staff should be shot for publicly blabbing that their sound cards were intentionally crippled just for Vista. Talk about driving prospective customers away en masse!

Drivers and 3rd-party vendor software bugs

Posted Apr 4, 2008 15:05 UTC (Fri) by gouyou (guest, #30290) [Link]

A lot of the problem is also due to the last minute driver model changes that happened before
the Vista release ...

Other points.

Posted Mar 31, 2008 1:03 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

Others have mentioned that there are some "re-enabled" features that involve third-party
licensing, such as realtime Dolby Digital encoding.

It's certainly possible that Creative is under contractual obligation to not provide some of
the features that were disabled, and could be legally liable to said third party.

That said, Creative has always had decent hardware (for its time), but to put it mildly, their
official drivers have always left something to be desired.  (Though Microsoft shares some of
the responsibility for Creative's horrid Vista driver mess.. but it's been more than a year)

Meanwhile, As I type this, My wife is watching a CSI episode with an old SBLive, and I have an
Audigy ZS card stuck in my laptop.  The Linux drivers (first OSS, later ALSA) drivers have
always been top-notch.

Other points.

Posted Mar 31, 2008 17:29 UTC (Mon) by leoc (guest, #39773) [Link]

That said, Creative has always had decent hardware (for its time)

Not really. When I picked up a Gravis Ultrasound Classic in 1992, I was amazed to discover that PC sound cards could actually make good sound. Creative's "state of the art" hardware at the time was still doing FM synthesis, and it took them a few years to release the AWE32 to match it.

"Quality" is so meaningless...

Posted Mar 31, 2008 19:03 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

Again, the hardware was decent, *for its time*.  It's not really fair to compare FM synthesis
to wavetable synthesis, but Creative did have a wavetable synth available when the GUS was
released; it just cost more.

The GUS had both good and bad points, but the original model's audio "quality" made the SB16
sound pro-grade, and that's not even considering the GUS's lack of 16-bit recording
capabilities.  True, the SB16 was FM-only, but it had a little expansion port that let one
tack on a wavetable synth daughtercard.  Creative called theirs the WaveBlaster.  

The AWE32 came later, integrating a new wavetable synth that was vastly superior to the GUS's,
but shared the same basic problem of being non-MIDI compatible -- which meant zero game
support. (The Emu8K was also re-used for a GM-compatible daughtercard that Creative sold as
the WaveBlaster2) However, the AWE32 still retained the FM synth, which meant that you still
got music in games that didn't support the GUS (which was most of 'em)

The rise of CD-ROMs ended up killing the synths on sound cards, as it was jut simpler (and
sounded better for 99% of their customers) to just record a high-quality audio track and be
done with it.

And yes, I still have an AWE32 (+8M), a GUS (1M), a Roland MT-32, and a Roland SCB-15
daughtercard.  Only the latter two are still in (occasional) use, as they have a standard MIDI
interfaces.

"Quality" is so meaningless...

Posted Apr 1, 2008 2:09 UTC (Tue) by walken (subscriber, #7089) [Link]

> The GUS had both good and bad points, but the original model's audio "quality" made the SB16
sound pro-grade

Hmmm - I have the exact opposite memory. For me, the GUS was the first card I had where I
could not tell what my CPU and disk were doing by listening to audio parasites on the line
out.

Whatever - this is 15 years ago, not really relevant now.

Other points.

Posted Apr 2, 2008 6:24 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

It's certainly possible that Creative is under contractual obligation to not provide some of the features that were disabled, and could be legally liable to said third party.
This way of shifting the blame is not very credible: if Creative is not able to negotiate with said third parties and end up with a good contract (one which actually lets its customers use its products) then it is a crappy company which doesn't care about its customers at all.

Negotiating a better contract?

Posted Apr 4, 2008 0:14 UTC (Fri) by kevinbsmith (guest, #4778) [Link]

Isn't the same argument used to explain why NVidia "can't" release source code to their
drivers, even if they want(ed) to?

Negotiating a worse contract

Posted Apr 4, 2008 6:27 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Yes, but you realize the difference. A company that licenses some code only for its release in binary form is not hurting its users. But a company that licenses code only for a specific version of the operating system is setting an expiry date on its drivers, and so effectively on the hardware as well. Or at least on a feature of the hardware.

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 2:51 UTC (Mon) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link]

Selling software/drivers disguised as hardware is something some companies like to do,
unfortunately. Someone here probably remembers a particular sort of Nvidia's Quadros which
were more or less rebranded consumer boards with different pci ids, with some software
optimizations getting enabled in the drivers when these pci ids were encountered. Seems that
something in the same vein goes on here. When the hardware and the drivers are pretty much
sold in one package, sometimes it's hard to tell one from another. A concept of a manufacturer
selling drivers for its own hardware definitely sounds ugly. Ok, now, does anyone know a good
manufacturer of audio boards?

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 5:13 UTC (Mon) by jamesh (guest, #1159) [Link]

That seems to be true for some of the features in the modified driver (AC3 encoding), but not
for others.  It seems that the Vista drivers for particular Creative hardware expose fewer
features than the XP equivalent.

Using an operating system upgrade as an opportunity to sell a customer new hardware that they
don't need seems to be the bigger story.  With free drivers, the hardware vendor isn't
required to keep them working for obsolete hardware, but there is nothing wrong with a third
party doing the work (as has happened here with the Vista drivers).

It's a common marketing practice

Posted Mar 31, 2008 10:11 UTC (Mon) by kbengston (guest, #6153) [Link]

There was a popular 80s multimeter brand that used the same internal circuit board for base
model and deluxe version. A single jumper enabled the upgrade. Of course the markings on the
outside of the case gave no clue that the extra features were available, but they were if you
knew. 

The manufacturer clearly thought that he could make a profit with either model, and that his
engineering costs would be minimised if the two used mostly identical hardware.  Was it legal
to enable the deluxe features that were dormant in the base model hardware that many paid for?
Most thought it was, though probably only a minority voided their warranty and actually did
it. The manufacturer had the good grace (and funds) to chalk it up to experience. He hasn't
repeated the mistake since.

It's a common marketing practice

Posted Mar 31, 2008 16:03 UTC (Mon) by mckay (subscriber, #2782) [Link]

A friend of mine told me that IBM did this with their 1130 minicomputers, back in the day. You
could purchase a "speed upgrade" that doubled the computer's speed. The "upgrade" consisted of
changing a jumper, which took a flip-flop out of the clock line.

It's a common marketing practice

Posted Apr 1, 2008 6:36 UTC (Tue) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

This is so common there's even a term for this: "mid-life kicker".  This applies both to doing
a product upgrade in middle of a product's lifespan (which is hardly controversial), and also,
I think, to the idea of "slugging" a product at launch and remove the "slug" for a fee when
doing the upgrade.

While this looks rather insane to some people, it is quite a sensible business practice - the
company can sell the initial product for a somewhat lower price maybe, and grow the market,
then release the faster/better product via upgrade without actually shipping new hardware to
existing customers.  Overall costs are lowered, and in a competitive market both the new and
old product should cost less than shipping an entirely "new" product.

Of course it does depend on customers not finding, or being unwilling to mess with, the
"slug"...

It's a common marketing practice

Posted Apr 2, 2008 2:46 UTC (Wed) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link]

IBM practiced this across their MVS mainframe range for many years. Their customers didn't feel too upset, as they were basically renting MIPS. At original sale IBM would ship bigger iron with some CPUs either clocked slow or disabled. Then the customer would pay more, a "screwdriver upgrade" would occur, and the customer would IPL (reboot) into a faster machine.

The benefit to the (typically banking and government) customer was simple. A mainframe "forklift upgrade" takes about two years of planning to minimise risk and disruption. An IPL takes about eight weeks of planning.

It's a common marketing practice

Posted Apr 4, 2008 0:46 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

These days, even turning a screwdriver is pretty expensive, so this kind of price discrimination is done with cryptographic keys -- you pay your money and the vendor emails you a key that brings the dormant or underutilized hardware to life.

Sometimes you can downgrade again later too.

It's a common marketing practice

Posted Mar 31, 2008 16:58 UTC (Mon) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

Usually, the base model doesn't use some of the lower-yield portions of the circuit that the
deluxe model uses, and they test boards and jumper only the ones that pass. Of course, then
their yield improves, and they need to take off the jumper to meet demand for the base model.
But there's often a reasonable chance that doing the upgrade on your own will reveal that the
thing won't actually work like that.

In any case, if the company is making a profit selling the deluxe hardware internals at the
base price, and this is able to compete with other manufacturers, having people find out that
they can turn the base model into the deluxe model is probably a net win. Of course, it's
usually not possible to make a profit making deluxe hardware and selling it at base model
prices.

Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 7:01 UTC (Mon) by deleteme (guest, #49633) [Link]

Sadly the state of Linux when recording and sound IO doesn't say much nice things about free
software. It's a mess and it's always been a mess, sometimes it's even a mess when you only
want to record. 

Now I don't really care about sound, but the times when I've needed it it has almost always
failed me. In all layers from the kernel to Gnome.

But I have no itch... ;-)

Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 9:04 UTC (Mon) by jhs (guest, #12429) [Link]

Yes, I think your comment is related to something I was thinking when reading this:

An important question is, how often does this happen in the industry?  If vendors do this
often to promote hardware sales, then yes, that's a good reason for the industry to consider
free software.

However, if this is a rare occurrence, then this story is merely a moving anecdote.
Practically speaking, the industry will not migrate to free software until there is a
compelling economic incentive to do so.  I don't know what the common practice is, but my
suspicion is that non-free drivers basically do a satisfactory job for typical users.

That's a shame, because I think people don't realize the cold, hard business case for free
software.  For certain people in the IT industry (ISVs, integrators, solution providers,
consultants -- especially small ones), using free software heavily or exclusively is a
compelling business model.  The benefits are zero licensing fees and effective legal certainty
about your so-called intellectual property position.  Finally, for small companies, what is a
bigger threat: piracy or obscurity?  For this reason, the intuitive desire to "keep your cards
close to your chest" is bad for business.

(Incidentally, both the "legal certainty" and "obscurity vs. piracy" arguments apply to small
musicians, and that is why you see so many small musicians adopting Creative Commons.)

Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 9:42 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

For audio processing on Windows the audio API is so poor that third party application
developers had to go and create their own driver models and APIs for audio processing on
Windows.  It's called ASIO and even with Microsoft's dramatic changes for Vista people are
still going to need it. 

This is one thing that Apple did right with OS X. Their Core audio stuff is very good. 

Right now Linux's stuff works great. Alsa is able to provide ASIO performance,
realtime-preempt patches give Linux performance that exceeds every other OS out there. Jackd
allows you to route audio PCM and Midi signals between all sorts of hardware and software...
on fly and in a high performance manner. This allows you to use your favorite applications
(most serious audio apps support Jack) rather then a handful of small apps that conform to a
specific company's monolythic application.  Alsa has the ability to use all sort of special
things... such as controlling audio output on a per channel basis, providing both software
mixing capabilities and direct access to hardware without requiring anything special. 

All sorts of stuff. All the peices are there... People have been making good music using Linux
for a long time now. People have been running entire studios using Linux.

Trouble is that it's just very hard to use. _Very_ hard to use for people not used to Linux.
Hell most distros ship kernels with the "low-latency desktop" options completely disabled
(preemption and that sort of thing). People trying to use a server-style kernel that they are
given by default are going to generally get horrendous audio performance if they try to push
it (drop-outs, squeaks and pops introduced into audio recordings and playback due to buffer
underflows). So at a bare minimum it's going to require a kernel recompile for anything
remotely serious. Very serious stuff will require patching the kernel. (which often breaks
proprietary ATI and Nvidia drivers) How many music folks can handle that sort of thing? And
that is not even going into alsa configurations or learning the names of software so they can
find packages or (even worse) compile them one by one.

And, to make matters worse, both KDE and Gnome actually get in the way of doing this sort of
stuff. instead of making things easier they make them more difficult for end users to
understand what is going on. It's very fubar'd in terms of ease of use.


Plus Linux isn't 'sexy' for the sort of people that do amateur audio stuff. You can't get most
the hardware that magazines advertise to work on Linux. None of the 'industry standard'
software that advertises all over the place in music magazines works on Linux. When people see
videos and look at interviews of their favorite artists they see them using Apple hardware and
carrying around macbooks or messing around with impressive-looking things on XP.  People will
quite happily go out of their way to spend thousands of dollars on software and equipment that
they think that the 'Pros' use. 

Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 9:56 UTC (Mon) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

What about multimedia-oriented distributions like 64studio? I assume they have the needed patches and software already in place. Of course people new to Linux are likely to hear about Red Hat, Ubuntu and other big distros first.

Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 23:51 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Ya. 

64Studio seems very good. 

The old DeMuDi distro from the Agnula project helped out tremendously to make things easier to
use. They put a lot of effort in packaging software and documenting things. I figure this is
why most audio processing applications and such are in Debian proper nowadays and is now be
re-incorporated into things like Studio64 and Ubuntu Studio. 

64Studio is probably the most mature things you can use as far as this sort of thing goes.
It's totally open source and compatible with Debian. It's also commercially oriented with
options for paid support and that happy stuff.

The cool thing is that they are seeming to gain some hardware vendor support. It started off
with Lionstrac's range of audio workstations and it looks like they picked up on a couple of
other vendors.
http://64studio.com/oem_products
http://eracks.com/products/Quiet%20Systems/config?sku=STUDIO



Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 12:51 UTC (Mon) by tom.parkin (guest, #38175) [Link]

Trouble is that it's just very hard to use. _Very_ hard to use for people not used to Linux.

I'm not sure that's true anymore. A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but now there are quite a number of audio-specific Linux distributions which appear very well put together.

As an example, I recently replaced the core of my home studio with a box running Ubuntu Studio, and was very pleased with how well it performed. With virtually no extra setup after installation I was able to sit down to a 6 hour recording session using Ardour with no issues. That's streaming 8 channels of 96KHz, 24bit audio with a 10ms latency. I certainly wouldn't say it was very hard.

Linux drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 13:35 UTC (Mon) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link]

Did you read deleteme comment that started this thread? If you could elaborate in a short
article, I would put it up on my site, gladly.  Or you might investigate doing a write up for
lwn.

Your knowledge of sound systems would be very useful to others here and off other sites.

[Check with Jon for my email address if you wish to humor my request.]


Linux drivers

Posted Apr 1, 2008 0:09 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Probably not so much. 

the only thing I've realy done with audio in Linux is setup a cheap M-Audio Keystation and
learn to play a few songs. 

So while I know more then your average Linux user about audio stuff I have zero real world
experience, even as a amateur. Plus a lot of the stuff I know probably isn't really up to
date. I haven't kept up any.


What would be very cool though would be to get a hold of the folks behind 64studio or Ubuntu
Studio and get them to talk about real-world setups from people actually using Linux to
produce music. 

Hardware setups... software configuration, favorite software. Midi tools.. firewire or USB
accessories. Basement/bedroom studio setups, professional people using Linux. Challenges and
what they think could be done to make things better. What they would consider best place to
start for people doing simple recordings all the way up to trying to produce a album to stick
on myspace or anything in between.

That sort of thing.

Meanwhile there are places online that are worth keeping a eye on.http://www.linuxaudio.org/
for example. 

As far as I am concerned the level of quality and diversity of open source audio software
combined with the performance, stability, and affordability of Linux makes Linux Audio one of
the more disappointingly well kept secret s of Free software.

Linux drivers

Posted Apr 1, 2008 0:12 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Oh here is a interesting one:
http://lab0.wordpress.com/

Man, if anything this stuff can be very fun to play around with. 

Linux audio

Posted Mar 31, 2008 14:31 UTC (Mon) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

I don't agree with the contention that it's a mess and has "always been a mess" which suggests
that it's not got any better.

With OSS you had the abstraction in all the wrong places, so often there simply wasn't any way
to do what the user wanted, unless the user happened to want to do whatever the OSS designers
thought you should do (basically, play video games which use 16-bit stereo sound).

ALSA gets more of that right. There's a good chance that whatever my hardware is actually
capable of is reflected sensibly into userspace. I get dB relative amplifier settings for
example, instead of arbitrary "1-100" scales that could mean anything and frequently do.
Recent versions of ALSA finally default to "restore what you can" when your driver updates add
or remove some of the mixer controls for your hardware, which was a huge oversight in older
versions.

JACK gets a lot of stuff right that basically no-one had got right before, although other
modern operating systems are moving in the right direction.

In my experience even (Linux) distribution vendors have got a lot better about audio. Most of
them ship frameworks like JACK so that you don't need to compile anything yourself. They
usually make some attempt to properly set up your sound card, and to restore those settings
next time you use the computer. They will set the permissions correctly for the console user.
In some cases they even remember to grant the console user the new (non-dangerous) real time
quota so that he or she can use pro-audio software without editing text files.

However there's plenty more ground to be covered. Most of the heavy lifting now needs to be
done by the desktop environments (GNOME, KDE etc.), which have traditionally taken the 1990s
DOS game approach of pretending everyone owns a Soundblaster 16 and wants to either play
exactly one music file, or make useless desktop bleeps, or maybe, if they're feeling really
lucky, record a badly distorted or inaudibly quiet 8-bit version of their own voice saying
"Testing". The jury is still out on Pulseaudio, but all the previous attempts at this sort of
thing have been disastrous and I have no reason to think Pulseaudio's developers are any
smarter. JACK makes application developers actually have to care about audio - and that,
apparently, is unacceptable for anything except pro audio software. So, either Pulseaudio will
turn out to finally get this stuff right without making app developers think about it, or
we're back to just ALSA, which at least had dmix working on all the machines I own.

If you're using a properly configured laptop with a pro outboard card and a copy of Ardour
putting together a demo track you could imagine that Linux audio is fine now. But a phone call
from someone who is trying to make the "new mail" sound from Evolution audible - and has been
confronted by forty more or less identically labeled sliders which seem to do nothing - will
soon wake you up to a world where there's a lot left to do. Still, we're closer than we were a
few years ago.

Linux audio

Posted Mar 31, 2008 14:57 UTC (Mon) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

or make useless desktop bleeps

Hey, we NEED that bleep to tell us when the pagefile was expanded once again, and data might have been lost... Oh wait, wrong OS, carry on.

Linux audio

Posted Mar 31, 2008 16:40 UTC (Mon) by vmole (guest, #111) [Link]

I don't think PulseAudio is perfect, but as someone who has been struggling with audio-related Linux stuff since kernel 1.0.x, it's a lot closer than anything else. The config files are sane, and documented in a way non-experts can figure out. If all you need is single system audio on a single card, you probably don't even need to look at the config. Of course, PA still relies on ALSA, and ALSA has to keep up with all the crappy implementations of supposed standards like intel-hda.

Linux audio

Posted Mar 31, 2008 17:29 UTC (Mon) by Frej (guest, #4165) [Link]

If editing files is needed, well that's the flaw number 1. ;)

Linux audio

Posted Mar 31, 2008 18:33 UTC (Mon) by vmole (guest, #111) [Link]

So how is it supposed to know where to send sound in a multisystem setup? (Actually, PA supports avahi (zeroconf), so actually, I suppose it can automatically figure this stuff out. Never tried that, though.)

Or are you just objecting to text editors? PA has GUI config tools. They're still editing files, though. For that matter, so is GConf.

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Mar 31, 2008 18:31 UTC (Mon) by mangoa01 (subscriber, #4576) [Link]

I would expect little else from Creative. I long ago decided that Creative hardware was
mediocre and its software horrible. The decision is easy. Stop buying it.

Creative has a rather long past; let's harass 'em for the right bits.

Posted Mar 31, 2008 19:35 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

Creative's hardware should be classed into two categories -- pre-Live, and post-Live.  The
SBLive was revolutionary when it first came out, and managed to outlast the competition that
sprung up around the new 3D positional audio standards.  (They didn't kill Aureal when they
bought it; it was already a corpse by that point)

But, like so many other hardware markets, the integration of audio onto motherboards (starting
with the i810 chipset) all but killed the add-in sound market, taking it from a "everyone
needs to buy a basic sound card" to a luxury item for gamers and studio work.

The reasons for people having problems with the SBLive was that it was merely
PCI2.0-compliant; later revs of the PCI spec tightened some ambiguious stuff, and some
assumptions Creative made became out-of-spec, or close enough to the threshold that the
motherboard (and other add-in card) quality mattered.  

Well, that and finiky Win2K drivers, but that was hardly a problem unique to Creative Labs.

But if I were to consider buying a new sound card today, Creative's would be on the list to
evaluate; it's foolish to carry a prejudice based on a product two generations old.

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 3, 2008 6:11 UTC (Thu) by fredds (subscriber, #25233) [Link]

I think the reason behind it is that Creative are not allowed to have their drivers opened up
in this way because of their agreement with Microsoft and the DRM requirements of Vista. Have
a look at this article, especially those parts relating to driver manufacturers.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.htm...

To me, Vista is no longer an operating system for users.

Pete


A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 0:50 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I think the reason behind it is that Creative are not allowed to have their drivers opened up in this way because of their agreement with Microsoft and the DRM requirements of Vista.

But that's not what Creative said in its public reprimand of the modder, even though it would have been easier to defend than the property right issues that Creative apparently believes are at stake.

Creative's customers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 0:55 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

Daniel_K, by making Creative's customers happier, was threatening Creative's chosen business strategy.

This is a misuse of the term "customer" that implies an irony, and business stupidity, that isn't there. The people in question are not customers. They are past customers, trying not to be current customers. No wonder Creative doesn't want them happy.

It's the same misnomer which often causes people to misapply the adage, "the customer is always right," thinking it means if someone goes into a business and demands something, the businessman should give it to him. What it really means is that if someone offers to buy something from you, and it's in your line of business, you should sell it to him (even if you think he shouldn't have it).

Creative's customers

Posted Apr 8, 2008 1:54 UTC (Tue) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

Just because there is a perhaps long period between buying new hardware — significant hardware
purchases of mine were Dec '97, Mar '03, seems like a 5+ year cycle — and thus being most
likely a "past customer" as you call it, this does not mean that I could not be a future
customer of the particularly hardware vendors I am biased towards. That is, unless they make
such a fuss.

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 13:11 UTC (Fri) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

It seems to me no one has commented on the point that Daniel K was actually infringing
copyright law, which could probably be seen the same as taking a Linux Kernel, patch it with
some clever hack and distributing on a web server without the source code and also requesting
donations from this (but I'm not a lawyer).

While I find Creative response was simply stupid and out of proportion, they actually have the
law on their side, and is the same law we cherish as GPL users.

Anyway, I always disliked Creative for it's crappy drivers on Windows, even if the hardware
was ok (as a non-pro user).

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 19:57 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I don't 'cherish' copyright law. It has to be tolerated, as the law of the 
land, but nobody says we have to *like* it. (Indeed the GPL license in 
particular is an attempt to end-run around it by producing a pool of works 
within which one can act as if copyright law did not exist beyond 'show me 
the source'.)

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 22:21 UTC (Fri) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

Fair enough. My selection of the "cherish" word was a bad one.

My point is only that we actually depend on the law, or we couldn't force users to "show us
the code".

A creative example of the value of free drivers

Posted Apr 4, 2008 20:53 UTC (Fri) by wblew (subscriber, #39088) [Link]

There is no question that Creative has the legal right to grief the users of their older
hardware products.

For me, the issue isn't their legal rights, but their corporate arrogance.

As a result, I have taken my business elsewhere, as is _my_ legal right.

Realistically? The arrival of good sounding motherboard audio hardware has shrunk Creative's
market for their gaming related audio PC hardware.

Yesterday, I was using a Creative card connected to one of their digital speaker systems to
listen to my Windows games' surround sound, with XP.

Today, I am using my ASUS Striker Extreme motherboard's onboard audio hardware's DTS
interactive feature (encoding DTS digital surround sound in real time) to listen to my Windows
games' surround sound on my new Z-5500 speakers, with Vista.

Note: No Creative hardware or software anywhere and the sound is GREAT!

PS: The audio situation is unfortunate in that the Dolby Digital and DTS digital standards are
both proprietary with the associated licensing costs and legal limitations.

IMO that really limits the ability to implement those standards within open source software.


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