Depends on who wants to talk...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Feb 14, 2005 12:56 PM EDT |
This may come as a shock, but, listen up kiddies (you to, Paul) : Microsofties (some of them, at least) are people, too!! Some of them are OK, in a strange glassy-eyed kind of way. One more thing: The definition of a Microsoftie can be a little tricky. Is it just the "real" folks up at Redmond and assorted official Redmond satellites, or do you include assorted VARs and other folks who are devoted to MS ware because it has helped them to make a pretty penny? Some of the "real" folks can be interesting if they are techies instead of marketing folks, because Microsoft really does hire some talented people. More interesting and more useful, however, are the sort of unofficial quasi-softies. These are the folks who actually spread the gospel to the world, selling solutions to people, loading software onto boxes and writing custom programs. These folks receive a lot of love from Microsoft, one reason they tend to be loyal. But they're also under pressure and very vulnerable. They certainly are aware of Linux -- even if they pooh-pooh it to your face. I know that I've made a few dollars doing work for Microsoft VARs who didn't have Linux resources but had to accept a Linux component in order to snag a big Windows contract. Besides -- There are some topics that might interest both sides of the divide: Firefox, MySQL, OpenOffice, .Net/Mono, apache, etc... You never know: it could even be fun. |
| SeanConnery315 Feb 14, 2005 1:42 PM EDT |
All hail the tempered wisdom of experience! Mr. Trac scores one for logic and good sense! -Tool |
| dinotrac Feb 14, 2005 1:43 PM EDT |
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, right? |
| PaulFerris Feb 14, 2005 2:13 PM EDT |
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day, right? dino, the Tool just complimented you... [ FeriCyde faints ] On your point, I'm very aware that there are actual humans working for the Borg (that was a joke in case you missed it) and in the VAR space big time. On rare occasion, I've met them locally. The article is about actual MS employees attempting conversation with us. Maybe I wandered too much verbally... Maybe it's because Lawyers are bad at reading between the lines... Maybe you just wanted to insult me as usual... I vote for the last one -- it fits more with my expectations! PS: Happy valentines day Tool and 'Trac'd one. |
| SeanConnery315 Feb 14, 2005 3:21 PM EDT |
Woah, I totally missed that today was that artificial holiday that AG made up :-) Seriously though, you must be equating yourself to Species 8472 if you weren't assimilated when you encountered the borg (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/aliens/article...)! No wonder I forgot it was valentine's day, heheh... -Tool |
| PaulFerris Feb 14, 2005 3:34 PM EDT |
Quoth the Tool:"Woah, I totally missed that today was that artificial holiday that AG made up" Smith, I missed the fact that you're against American corporations who are simply trying to make an honest buck -- I thought I knew you fairly well in the capitalist area, but it's obvious with a quote like the above that you'd wish a local Cleveland company ill will and less in the way of revenues -- typical behavior for someone who's so against simple free-market ideals and the romantic ideals that they support. You unromantic communist hackers are all alike. You crouch in the dust of your communes, nothing but the smell of insense and the sound of commie chanting to guide your way. You thought you'd just slip one by the sharp eyes of the FeriCyde by complimenting Dinotrac (thought you'd pull the old DinoBait and switch, didn't you?!?). Well I'm onto you now. I see how you operate -- you thought you were a sharp tool, but I'm sharper. Soon, hoards of jack-booted thugs will knock down the doors of your local hang-out, cart off the boxes of commie-spreading fliers and put you and your kind where you belong -- to work in the local prison, making greeting cards and license plates. Then (THEN!) we'll see if you change you mind about good old American capitalism and the romantic Ideals of buying pounds of chocolate and flowers. By the way, I did my share for the local Hallmark store -- I recommend it, it's cathartic. --FeriCyde |
| SeanConnery315 Feb 14, 2005 6:18 PM EDT |
Ha! While I'm all for capitalism and such, it only extends so far. Take what we have known for so long with our friendly neighbors at Office Max (http://money.excite.com/ht/nw/bus/20050214/hle_bus-n14562374...) and what a shock it is! Don't give me your whole 'holier than thou' line - you have clearly repressed more than you realize :-)
And nobody is sharper than the tool - not even me. Hold on a minute, that didn't quite make sense... -Tool P.S. You need a new shrink - the one you're using now clearly isn't helping :-0 |
| dinotrac Feb 14, 2005 6:25 PM EDT |
And happy Valentine's day to all. Had to duck out for happy duty. Valentine's day is also my middle daughter's birthday. She and a friend went with the Mrs. Trac to a kiddie makeover join to be trimmed and glittered and made to fell special, after which we all went out for dinner. Sometimes, even Free Software is not the most important thing in the world. |
| Corriher Feb 15, 2005 4:54 AM EDT |
On a serious note, I feel it is counter productive to a dangerous level to begin a dialog about what other people are allowed to say. Linux advocates should have nothing to fear from an unfettered dialog; and let us not forget about giving hospitality toward guests. If we allow ourselves to adopt a political attitude of "us verses them", then we have lost sight of the noble priorities that tend to make us better. Microsoft, after all, is not anyones real enemy. Microsoft is merely the most pronounced symptom of the disease propietary, with the corporatist monolithic imperialistic secondary infections which can accompany the most fatal cases. I will take issue with the suggestion that some of Microsoft's technical employees are good. When a person aids and abets the harmful deceit of others for profit, then great intellectual aerobics must be endeavored to find goodness in it. If they are indeed technically savvy, then they should already know with greatest certainty the wrongfulness of the process which they willingly participate. So, I contend that serious rationalization is required to consider them good; unless it is qualified with "good businessmen" -- which is frequently an oxymoron. When Microsoft reaches out to us, it should be seen as an opportunity to change their corporate culture instead of a conflict with "rules of engagement". We know that they hope influence works in our direction; but using their weapons against them while garnering respect is an effective strategy. The real battle is a "hearts and minds" psychological battle. They know, and history tells us, that decisions will not be made on the basis of technical merit. In fact, people make purchases the overwhelming majority of the time based merely on what "feels" right -- no critical thought is even attempted. It is a lesson well overdue for us to learn. As Microsoft does: "Keep you friends close... and your enemies closer". The suits at Microsoft have much to learn about community and technology from us. We have much to learn about Marketing from them. A righteous and true man has nothing to fear from the devil. |
| dinotrac Feb 15, 2005 5:41 AM EDT |
I suggest you take a closer look at your thinking, which seems to be contradictory. If Microsoft is not really anybody's enemy, then why can't it's technical employees be good? Remember, not everybody considers proprietary software to be evil. I certainly don't. Free software is preferable, but it doesn't fill every need and likely never will. |
| phsolide Feb 15, 2005 6:37 AM EDT |
After all the persiflage, it comes down to this: Will you have the fortitude to sit through a long, long PowerPoint presentation, one which will make you believe that Edward Tufte is an optimist? Because that's what an MSFT presentation will consist of. |
| tuxchick Feb 15, 2005 10:23 AM EDT |
Proprietary software isn't evil, but Microsoft sure is. No doubt about it. billg is the most successful robber baron in history. I have no trouble calling him and his company evil- I mean it literally, without a shred of humor, irony, sarcasm, or satire, in complete seriousness. If a MS employee requested to give a presentation at my LUG, I would welcome him or her- as long as the subject is Linux. Especially migrating away from windows to Linux. |
| AnonymousCoward Feb 15, 2005 1:53 PM EDT |
TuxChick, you are too trusting. The subject would be migrating from Win to Lin - and how hard it is and how many failures and reversions they've seen. Trust me on this one, that's exactly what happens in real life. |
| Corriher Feb 17, 2005 3:32 AM EDT |
When hatred and bias clouds a person's mind, nothing constructive results. The negativity is a drain on both spirit and energy. At best it transforms the good guys into fools, and at worse, it transforms them into the type of people they otherwise despise. These very attitudes are partly why Linux is in the position it is in, and why Microsoft has run circles around us in growth. What would you as an outsider journalist believe about people acting this way? You folks don't have to like it, but my words have been backed by history. Religious zeal is a positive force, but it is a corrupt perversion when it becomes rapid fanaticism -- when it is political polarization. Yes, I fully understand why they are hated, but the difference is: I am strong enough to view the situation rationally without giving into hate. In fact, I scarcely give them little attention anymore since there are far more serious problems that face all of us than this one corporation. Since we speak of the topic of evil, let me add this. Is love or hate most likely to influence an opponent in the way we desire? If we do not to influence our opponent, then we cannot win. Like I was taught in the martial arts, you should first beat their spirit if possible -- weaken their courage and moral and move in unexpected ways. In a real fight, only one walks away, and there is never a winner. The victory is shallow at best, with damage on both sides. We have only emboldened them. What has that accomplished? Frankly, you folks have the very same attitudes as Microsoft employees. I'm disappointed in you. Don't we like to believe we are better, and smarter? How is wanting Bill's head on a platter any different from their malicious will toward competitors? It isn't. Dean, you've always been one of strong opinions, but I'll have to hold my ground on this. The attitudes here only further my case. I was not really contradictory. You merely had trouble yourself, and therefore read me only superficially. I realize this will tick some people off, but political appeasement is quite low in my proirities. As Ferris recently noted: "The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off". Clear your minds Jedi. The dark side clouds everything. |
| TxtEdMacs Feb 17, 2005 5:11 AM EDT |
Corriher: I suggest you read another attached thread to this topic, where actual people in LUG's give their opinion. There the average temperature of the comments are lower and most are open to listen, but they primarily wish to avoid vendor presentations lacking real content. Here the sarcasm level is very high and not all comments are meant to be taken literally. Check out the other thread and you will note that Paul's responses were thanks for the views, which were exactly what he was seeking. Remember too that his experiences being pro Linux were perceived to be anti MS and he suffered in isolation while trying to be ethical. Few of us had to undergo similar experiences. |
| dinotrac Feb 17, 2005 8:44 AM EDT |
Corriher -- I think the only thing we really disagreed on was whether a Microsoft techie could be good. I think it's entirely possible. I took you to say the opposite, but I may have misread |
| AnonymousCoward Feb 17, 2005 1:36 PM EDT |
Corriher: fine sentiments, but that's not what happens in Real Life(tm). It least, not in Perth, WestOz, and even in one case with significant goodwill from the Microsoft rep involved. In the saga of the toad and the scorpion, Microsoft is the scorpion. Not being a miserable sod here, just facing facts. Now imagine one of us giving a presentation to a Microsoft-hosted meeting. It always helps the insight to try a role reversal. How easy would it be to not make any statements (or give any answers) which, however nicely couched, spoke against Microsoft or their products or practices? |
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