My Response
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| moopst Jul 03, 2006 7:36 PM EDT |
Quoted: Furthermore, it appears that the choice of a PC vendor to offer PC with or without an OS is not so much influenced by the rebate offered by Microsoft than by the existence of effective consumer demand for PCs with operating systems. My response would be this: It is a subject of debate whether the market made the monopoly or the monopoly made the market. It is not a matter of debate whether Europe (or the US for that matter) ought to enforce their laws against illegal product tying. For my part I've been ripped off several times and would like to get a razor blade and scrape off the ugly holographic graffiti that adorns my computers. |
| dinotrac Jul 03, 2006 9:20 PM EDT |
> It is not a matter of debate whether Europe (or the US for that matter) ought to enforce their laws against illegal product tying. The question is not whether the laws should be enforced, but whether the laws are being broken. If there is no requirement placed on PC makers to sell their machines with Windows, it is hard to establish illegal product tying. What product is being illegally tied to the sale of the PCs? For that matter, who is the guilty party? Can it possibly be the PC makers, who nobody accuses of holding a monopoly? Can it be Microsoft, who does not require that it's product be installed? So... What is the illegal act? How is it being perpetrated? and, by whom? |
| hkwint Jul 04, 2006 10:29 AM EDT |
As long as it is possible to get a refund when not buying Windows, there's nothing illegal in my opinion. Only if you are forced to buy Windows, I'd say it's tied sales. The OEMs are the obvious guilty ones, since they don't offer a refund, though they are probably forced to do so by Microsoft. I found out, it finally is (can be) Microsoft who ends up paying the refund. Therefore, the OEMs don't take any risk by installing Windows, if there was a refund at all, Microsoft would pay. The European Competition law also knows misuse of a monopoly position, and that position is probably being misused by Microsoft, but that's too difficult to prove. Nonetheless, it seems even unwritten agreement is illegal according to term 81 of the Treaty of Amsterdam. |
| dinotrac Jul 04, 2006 12:09 PM EDT |
Hans - I think you have run into a limitation of any law. To every law there is letter and spirit. One hopes to see the spirit of the law obeyed, but law is a rather blunt instrument. Meeting the letter generally suffices, if for no other reason than making it difficult to establish a violation of the spirit. |
| dcparris Jul 04, 2006 4:28 PM EDT |
Anyone remember the Microsoft Refund effort some years back, when folks in California took their computers to whatever the big retailer is out there, and allowed the Microsoft folks to verify that Windows had, in fact, been removed from the HDDs. Microsoft refused to give a refund then. Why would they start now? |
| dcparris Jul 04, 2006 4:30 PM EDT |
I found the relevant links: http://www.linuxcabal.com/articles/MSRefundDay19990215.html http://linuxmafia.com/refund/coverage.html [Edit] And one more: http://www.svlug.org/events/refund/ |
| hkwint Jul 04, 2006 11:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:To every law there is letter and spirit. There's a court to judge about that. Luckily, it only takes them ten years (avarage) to decide about the spirit. Quoting:Why would they start now? Times have changed. Only the EC can make them start, since MS is afraid of the EC today (I think). Therefore, the EC should be convinced the OEMs break the law by not offering a refund. I'll try to take care of that 'convincing' ASAP (holidays start in ten days). I'm planning an official complaint, and some media attention (at least, I hope). |
| dinotrac Jul 05, 2006 1:19 AM EDT |
Hans - I know European law is somewhat different from American, but... I still have trouble seeing how the OEMs are breaking any law. |
| dafydd Jul 05, 2006 12:09 PM EDT |
Listen, why not make consumer complaints yourselves in your own (official EU language) about your own problems trying to be treated fairly when buying a computer or getting a Microsoft refund! You can complain about your EU Member State not protecting you as a consumer and not complying with EU rules about competition or not protecting you from illegal trading practices: You need to write to the Secretary General of the European Commission, Catherine Day at: SG-PLAINTES@cec.eu.int |
| dafydd Jul 05, 2006 12:21 PM EDT |
Dinotrac, Have no time to search for the references but EC and US law are fairly similar. You can't force someone 'illegally' to buy one product that is not necessarily related to another. That means if you come to my chain of shops to buy soap, and automatically have to buy monopoly shampoo, then that is illegal forced sale (tied sale in the US). This is the European Commission decisin of 24.03.2004 relating to a proceeding under Article 82 of the EC Treaty (Case COMP/C-3/37.792 Microsoft) http://www.worldlii.org/eu/cases/ECComm/2004/12.html [1219] The Court of Justice has also held that even if tied sales of two products are in accordance with commercial usage, such sales, if entered into by a dominant company, may constitute abuse within the meaning of Article 82 unless they are objectively justified.[1220] In a competitive environment, market forces attenuate the scope of the deterrent effect on innovation of the tying of separate software with an operating system. While a non-dominant client PC operating system producer who chooses to integrate may control innovation relating to the features on its platform, competitive innovation in the market is still possible because new features may be developed in conjunction with competing platforms. This is not the case where the platform market is virtually monopolised. Tying will deter innovation in the whole market to which the integrated product belongs. |
| dinotrac Jul 05, 2006 1:58 PM EDT |
dafydd - In the United States, illegal tying requires some kind of market power. The question is whether the OEM's have it. |
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