LOL
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jezuch Apr 06, 2007 2:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:Editor-in-Chief's Note: The fact is that Vista is far from "unfit for any user," and this statement by the author is simply incorrect. If you read the discussion thread linked below you will find there are many Vista users that are having positive experiences. The author's experiences are his own and I think a great look into just some of the complications that can come with upgrading to Vista. Some have had worse experiences and some have had better. -Kyle It sounds very much like: "Please, Microsoft, we didn't mean it! Don't kill us!" ;) |
| bigg Apr 06, 2007 4:54 AM EDT |
No, just another abused computer user defending the abuser. "How could I live without Windows?" A bug in any other OS is a feature in Windows. Can't use your printer? Well, that's a good thing, because that printer is a piece of junk. |
| techiem2 Apr 06, 2007 8:57 AM EDT |
haha Speaking of printers, my boss ran into that just yesterday. He was trying to get our staff canon copier setup in his (much hated) vista install on his laptop. It wasn't working. So he switched back to linux (I think vista was running in vmware), and it printed fine. We set the printer up in XP, it printed fine. He figured out that if he used the WRONG DRIVER for the printer, it would print. But not if he used the driver for the correct model. It was quite amusing (to me anyway, he was ready to kill vista...again). |
| bigg Apr 06, 2007 9:16 AM EDT |
At least he had drivers. The (sadly not surprising) thing about this is that it's no big deal that Vista doesn't support things as elementary as a printer. As long as they know why and that eventually there *might* be a driver for Vista, no problem. One problem with Linux drivers or installation and Linux is "not ready for the desktop". I'd bet a million dollars that it's easier to set up a majority of the printers in current use on Linux than on Vista. No matter, Vista is Windows so it must be easy to use. |
| Abe Apr 06, 2007 12:35 PM EDT |
The fact is, Vista was never ready for final release, MS was forced to release it due to the extreme pressure from the amazing progress of FOSS software in general and Linux desktop in particular. Didn't they have to strip features and capabilities (WinFS) and rushed into announcing OpenXML Office? MS couldn't delay Vista any longer. With all the resource (financial and otherwise) MS has, they just can't keep up with all the competition coming at them from all directions. The numerous little bites are turning to be a massive bleeding. One would wonder how long MS can hold on! |
| bigg Apr 06, 2007 12:48 PM EDT |
They did feel pressure to release Vista before it was ready, but I don't see that releasing it helped them. The only important changes were the price tag and the restrictions of the EULA. If Vista is their best defense against FOSS, they're screwed. |
| jimf Apr 06, 2007 12:57 PM EDT |
> If Vista is their best defense against FOSS, they're screwed. Looks like it, but, never underestimate the evil empire. The same people that sold you wonderful goodies like winders 3.1 and X:P. Remember, they're into 'Marketing'. |
| tracyanne Apr 06, 2007 1:53 PM EDT |
quote:: The same people that sold you wonderful goodies like winders 3.1 and X:P. Remember, they're into 'Marketing'. ::quote They always have been. Marketing is what makes your product visible and desirable. It makes good products desirable and bad products desirable. So far it's mostly the creators of bad products that make good use of marketing, while the creators of good - even great - products tend to sit on their laurels and denigrate marketing when it works for the creators of bad products. |
| Abe Apr 06, 2007 6:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Marketing is what makes your product visible and desirable. I believe this is true only because there is a sucker born every minute. Marketing doesn't work on intelligent people, but works for the benefit of opportunistic people. MS knew how to play the game and had very good chance to be the only company who saw an opportunity in the PC. I guess they had no chance in any thing else since IBM dominated the big iron and didn't care about the PC as long as the mainframe kept bringing more revenue. Digital didn't care about it either because mini-computers bring in a lot more revenue. These were the two companies that really did count at that time and MS stole most things from them. Today, MS is facing a completely different kind of competition and all their ways, means, and marketing can't do much about competing against or restrain it. Buying influence (politicians & PHBs) is a different story. |
| tracyanne Apr 06, 2007 6:14 PM EDT |
What you seem to forget is that Linux is marketed, badly most of the time. Every person who stands up and argues in favour of Linux, is marketing Linux. |
| Abe Apr 06, 2007 7:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:What you seem to forget is that Linux is marketed, badly most of the time My bad, I thought "Marketing" meant deception. 1. The act or process of buying and selling in a market. 2. The commercial functions involved in transferring goods from producer to consumer. No. In my opinion, Linux is being advocated not being marketed as in "selling it in a market". |
| jimf Apr 06, 2007 10:50 PM EDT |
> No. In my opinion, Linux is being advocated not being marketed as in "selling it in a market". Word of mouth is the absolutely best form of adversing. That's marketing 101. |
| tracyanne Apr 06, 2007 11:28 PM EDT |
quote:: My bad, I thought "Marketing" meant deception. ::quote No marketing isn't about deception - in fact marketing is neutral. Marketing is about making people aware of what you've got. It's about creating a perception of what you have, that perception can be false, as in deception, or it can be true. And yes Linux is being sold in a market, it's price is $0. The problem with the way Linux has been marketed is that most people have never heard of it. That's poor marketing. Another problem with how Linux has been marketed is that most of those who have heard of it think it's something that only stereotypical stuttering Hollywood movie geeks would use. That's poor marketing. |
| jimf Apr 07, 2007 12:18 AM EDT |
> marketing is neutral. Marketing is about making people aware of what you've got. As a textbook definition, in an ideal world, that's true. Unfortunately, for many business, in particularly MS, that equates to lies, deception, and manipulation. Way beyond the usual expected puffery. |
| tracyanne Apr 07, 2007 1:39 AM EDT |
quote:: Unfortunately, for many business, in particularly MS, that equates to lies, deception, and manipulation. ::quote Yes. But it doesn't have to be, that's a choice the marketer makes. Microsoft have made their choice, it's not a choice I would make nor advocate. On the other hand Linux and FOSS can be marketed honestly. The problem is that it's not being marketed effectively. The Novell parody of the Mac ads is actually a very good example of good marketing, The ads say a whole lot of positive things about Linux, and the best of it is in the subtext. Linux is contexturalised - shown to be that thing that makes computers computers - and at the same time Linux is differentiated - shown to be, while of that thing that makes computers computers, some thing quite different and quite special, and more desirable. That's effective marketing, and no one had to be dishonest. One of the interesting things that happens when I introduce Linux to people who've never heard of it is the way that they really like the fact that they actually can actually own the software on their computer if it's Linux and FOSS. For some reason, even though it actually makes not one iota of physical difference where the majority of people are concerned, when I explain the concept of how proprietary software (including MS Windows) is merely a lease, and they actually get to own their copy of Linux and associated software, this strikes a nerve for some reason, they get excited. Maybe it's the Australian psyche, and it won't translate to other countries, I don't know. |
| Abe Apr 07, 2007 7:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:Word of mouth is the absolutely best form of adversing. That's marketing 101 Advertising, Marketing, advocating, etc..., I wonder why we have so many different words! Is it may be that each has specific meaning we try to describe specific situations or action? I am really confused and you are not helping. Please try to see the difference. Quoting:Yes. But it doesn't have to be I agree, it doesn't have to be, but IT IS, are you trying to change it? Good luck! Quoting:really like the fact that they actually can actually own the software on their computer if it's Linux and FOSS. That is inaccurate advocacy, GPLed software has its owners (copyright holders) and no others can own it unless that ownership is transfered. The owners make it available under the GPL which grants others the rights to copy, use, change and distribute as long as the GPL is passed on to others. That doesn't mean they own it in the legal sense. |
| DarrenR114 Apr 07, 2007 7:43 AM EDT |
@Abe
Quoting: Advertising, Marketing, advocating, etc..., I wonder why we have so many different words! Is it may be that each has specific meaning we try to describe specific situations or action? I am really confused and you are not helping. Please try to see the difference. My wife with a degree in Advertising (B.S. UofFL '92) constantly reminds me that advertising != marketing. |
| dcparris Apr 07, 2007 8:47 AM EDT |
Quoting:That is inaccurate advocacy, GPLed software has its owners (copyright holders) and no others can own it unless that ownership is transfered. The owners make it available under the GPL which grants others the rights to copy, use, change and distribute as long as the GPL is passed on to others. That doesn't mean they own it in the legal sense. Gotta go with Abe on this point. I held this same misconception - not sure how I arrived at your conclusion - I guess because you do own what you modify - until I got corrected on another list. Fortunately, I hadn't shared my view with many people, so no innocent bystanders were victimized. ;-) |
| jimf Apr 07, 2007 9:08 AM EDT |
> I wonder why we have so many different words! Well cause it's 'English' Abe ;-) For the sake of the discussion: 'Marketing' consists of the social and managerial processes by which products, services and value are exchanged in order to fulfill individual's or group's needs and wants. These processes include, but are not limited to, advertising. 'Advertising' is paid communication through a real personal medium in which the sponsor is identified and the message is controlled. 'Advocacy' (as we're using it) is the act of arguing on behalf of a particular issue or idea. [with apoligies to wikipedia and a bunch of other internet sources] |
| Abe Apr 07, 2007 9:37 AM EDT |
Quoting:My wife with a degree in Advertising (B.S. UofFL '92) constantly reminds me that advertising != marketing. That is my point too. Please ask her opinion on Marketing != advocating. I guess what I am saying is, we are not trying to sell Linux/FOSS for some cost, but we are only trying to help it flourish for the good of all. If you look at Novell, Mandrake, Xandros, LinSpire, and others. I would say they are advertising to market Linux. |
| jimf Apr 07, 2007 11:22 AM EDT |
Strictly 'paid' advocacy would be marketing. Unpaid would not. One problem with marketing Linux is that you really can't and don't. As has been noted, Linux has a $0 value, and it's the 'service' that really being sold. The whole thing just doesn't fit well into a Capitalist thought mode. |
| tracyanne Apr 07, 2007 4:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:I agree, it doesn't have to be, but IT IS, are you trying to change it? Good luck! I don't have to change it, there is nothing to change. The dishonesty or lack thereof is the choice of the marketer. If Microsoft choose to be dishonest, that's no skin off my nose. I or any other marketer can choose to be honest. I think I am being honest when I talk about Linux an the GPL to people who have never heard of either. and no, I'm not being dishonest here. Quoting: That is inaccurate advocacy, GPLed software has its owners (copyright holders) and no others can own it unless that ownership is transfered. The owners make it available under the GPL which grants others the rights to copy, use, change and distribute as long as the GPL is passed on to others. That doesn't mean they own it in the legal sense. because I do explain what I mean by own and lease, and what ownership means in terms of FOSS and the GPL. The dynamic between the copyright owner of GPLed code and the recipient is quite different from that of the dynamic between the owner of proprietary code and the recipient. With GPLed code, so long as you do not infringe the GPL you can do what you like with a piece of GPL code in the same way as you can a car or a leg of lamb, it's effectively yours to use or give away or sell, or throw in hole in the ground, or modify, so long as you give that modification back the the copyright owner. Not so with proprietary code, the owner who is not necessarily the creator allows you no right other than to use that code where they specify. Quoting: My wife with a degree in Advertising (B.S. UofFL '92) constantly reminds me that advertising != marketing. That is what I have actually been saying. Advertising is a component of marketing, it's the bit that makes the product visible, marketing is a much bigger thing. Part of it is about understanding who you are attempting to sell your product to - your market - advertising should target that market. Another component is understanding how that market perceives you product, yet another component is about changing or enhancing that perception. Currently Linux is very poorly marketed, as I've stated before, above. Quoting: 'Marketing' consists of the social and managerial processes by which products, services and value are exchanged in order to fulfill individual's or group's needs and wants. These processes include, but are not limited to, advertising. I believe i've said that. Quoting:'Advertising' is paid communication through a real personal medium in which the sponsor is identified and the message is controlled. I believe also that I've said that. Quoting:'Advocacy' (as we're using it) is the act of arguing on behalf of a particular issue or idea. What I'm attempting to do. I believe that we are way past the point of needing to do advocacy for Linux and FOSS, there are quite a good number of commercial organisations that have built a business around Linux and FOSS. What Linux and FOSS needs now is mind share in the general public, that's not an advocay dynamic, that's a marketing dynamic. Quoting: I guess what I am saying is, we are not trying to sell Linux/FOSS for some cost, but we are only trying to help it flourish for the good of all. Yes Quoting:If you look at Novell, Mandrake, Xandros, LinSpire, and others. I would say they are advertising to market Linux. Indeed they are, but in their case purely for their own benefit. Quoting:Strictly 'paid' advocacy would be marketing. Unpaid would not. I disagree, paid advocacy would be paid advocacy. Quoting:One problem with marketing Linux is that you really can't and don't. Why not? Is Linux not an identifiable commodity? Quoting:As has been noted, Linux has a $0 value, and it's the 'service' that really being sold. Strictly speaking yes. But there is still a commodity called Linux (or if you prefer GNU/Linux), it's price is irrelevant, it could be sold at any price, it just happens to have a price of $0, we're not marketing it's price, we're marketing it's qualities. How it gets sold or bundled with services, or not, is not necessarily relevant to the qualities that we are promoting. Quoting:The whole thing just doesn't fit well into a Capitalist thought mode. I'm a capitalist, I don't believe I have a problem comprehending Linux. Mandriva, Red Hat, Linspire, Xandros, Novell, etc don't seem to have any problem comprehending Linux, nor it would seem do many other commercial (and therefor capitalist) organisations that use Linux and have built a business around FOSS. |
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