Dell is indeed listening
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| mdomsch May 11, 2007 9:48 AM EDT |
I'm Matt Domsch, a Linux Software Architect at Dell. My team manages and performs the engineering work that goes into Linux on Dell products, including servers, workstations, and the forthcoming desktop and notebook systems with Ubuntu. We work closely with our business partners, such as Canonical, Red Hat, and Novell/SuSE, and directly with driver developers, to make sure our products "just work". My team tries to stay on top of the general Linux community concensus. We read a lot of articles, blog posts, etc. We read each comment on the Direct2Dell.com blog. We read each comment on the IdeaStorm site. In addition, Dell's digital media team, including John Pope referenced in your article, scours the web looking for comments and bring those back for everyone involved (engineering, marketing, sales, support, ...) to consider. I'm an engineer, so I won't comment on the sales and marketing aspects of your article. Your comments are getting through to my colleagues in those areas too. But I can say, as I did in my http://Direct2Dell.com blog post, that we fully understand the need for open source, GPL-licensed, drivers which are included upstream in kernel.org and in your favorite distribution, whichever that is. We've been following that mantra since 1999 on servers, and it's the same people who deliver servers that are spearheading the Ubuntu on desktop and notebook system engineering work. Please, keep your comments coming. Thanks, Matt Domsch Linux Software Architect Dell Linux Solutions http://linux.dell.com & http://www.dell.com/linux Linux on Dell mailing lists @ http://lists.us.dell.com |
| dcparris May 11, 2007 10:19 AM EDT |
Thanks for posting Matt. Do feel free to hang around and be a part of the LXer community. You may occasionally need your flame retardant suit, but as people get to know you, they'll be fine. ;-) I think that's what the Novell guy experienced. The point oof my article, if it wasn't clear, is that the response is going to tell us whether what Dell heard was what we thought we communicated. I would be curious to know how the Linux evangelism inside Dell happens. Did you guys struggle early on? Are you seeing more success in terms of promoting Linux within Dell? Do you actually bother to promote it? It would be interesting to see how the insider efforts have influenced the external efforts and vice-versa. Would you care t comment on that? Don |
| Abe May 11, 2007 10:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:Please, keep your comments coming I am an engineer too and understand where you are coming from. Nice and helpful post. Thank you for reaching out. I am one of the many people who didn't take Dell's shenanigan too well and I am sure we all hoping that is changing and will change for the better. I just want to remind you, as you probably noticed already, that Dell's credibility in the FOSS community is pretty much down to zero. But like they say, every body deserves a second chance. To come to think of it, Dell already had multiple chances and constantly blow them off. Never the less, I think the community is willing to give Dell another chance because some of us feel that Dell is seriously trying harder this time. What Dell has to realize is that, this time might be the straw that will break the camel's back. So keep that in mind and may be you need to try and convince Dell's marketing strategist group that the FOSS community doesn't like to be deceived, especially multiple times. I hope Dell comes out with great products that are compatible with Linux and FOSS software in general. Keep in mind that FOSS community is growing at a rapid pace and it is not in the best interest for Dell to ignore it. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 10:29 AM EDT |
I've indicated elsewhere that I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and am waiting to see what is actually offered for sale. I also had a hardware issue for a Linux box in 2004, and found the answer in the Dell Linux forums. However, I am a little puzzled by this: > stay on top of the general Linux community concensus I know what you are saying, but did have to laugh when I read that, considering that there isn't even consensus on much of anything here at LXer. I guess it makes selling Linux boxes more interesting than selling Windows boxes. |
| herzeleid May 11, 2007 10:42 AM EDT |
I wanted to raise one point here, Don says in his editorial that linux users don't want nvidia graphics because they demand completely open source drivers. It would be a mistake to tar all linux users with that brush - I speak for myself, and all the linux users that know personally, when I say that we specifically require nvidia graphics, since we want fully working high performance linux graphics, and have no qualms about nvidia binary drivers. We just bought a new hp DV6xxx laptop, which came with intel graphics. After a couple frustrating weeks futzing around endlessly with 915resolution and various X configs, we gave up on it, put it up for sale and bought a similar HP laptop with nvidia graphics. Ah, relief! simply installed the nvidia driver and everything works! proper 1440x900 display, awesome hardware accelerated support for 3D FPS games, movies, google earth, effortless desktop eye candy. Certainly for that shrill and highly vocal minority of linux users who demand completely FOSS drivers, the intel graphics should be readily available, but don't cripple things for the rest of us, who want top-notch performance. Be sure that nvidia is an option as well! On a related note, re: ATI - I personally have no time for that kind of grief, and I vigorously avoid any desktop hardware with ATI graphics. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 10:51 AM EDT |
> Certainly for that shrill and highly vocal minority of linux users who demand completely FOSS drivers I don't think such a statement is necessary. Funny thing that you then post > ATI - I personally have no time for that kind of grief, and I vigorously avoid any desktop hardware with ATI graphics This is exactly the argument made by the shrill and highly vocal minority. |
| jdixon May 11, 2007 10:56 AM EDT |
>> Be sure that nvidia is an option as well! > Funny thing that you then post... Well, bigg, as with everything else, there are quality proprietary drivers, and there are lousy ones. In general, NVidia's drivers are good quality and ATI's... well, aren't. |
| softwarejanitor May 11, 2007 10:57 AM EDT |
Glad to hear it Matt. I live just a couple miles from Dell's headquarters and a lot of my friends and neighbors work there. However, I've been reluctant to recommend Dell products in the past because of the lack of AMD processor availability and Linux support not being as consistant as I'd like. I'm glad that Dell has both started to offer AMD processors and is working to improve the support of Linux on their products, especially those outside the server arena. I'm certainly open minded to changing my position as I see Dell make progress in these areas. I would love to hear more, particularly if/how you plan to steer Dell towards selecting component (chipset) suppliers that are open source friendly and/or using Dell's influence to convince some of the component vendors who are not open source friendly (like Broadcom for instance) to change their policies. Small steps like that would go a long way towards the solution to the problem. Even better would be if Dell would test every model PC they make with a couple of the top distros (say, Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora and probably SuSE just to keep MS happy) to make sure all the components are supported out of the box... I realize that it would add some expense to set up a testing lab to do that, but the customer satisfaction of knowing that every machine shipped would 'just work' even if it didn't originally ship with Linux would really differentiate Dell's products from the other major brands. |
| herzeleid May 11, 2007 11:04 AM EDT |
> > me: ATI - I personally have no time for that kind of grief, and I vigorously avoid any desktop hardware with ATI graphics > bigg: This is exactly the argument made by the shrill and highly vocal minority. Not at all - the biggest difference, in case you missed it, is this: I don't impose my morality on you! Hey, if you want to install crashing ATI drivers and bang your head against the wall, more power to you! I am simply stating what I've personally learned about video cards and drivers through painful experience over the past few years. The wise listener may be educated as well. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 11:05 AM EDT |
> Well, bigg, as with everything else, there are quality proprietary drivers, and there are lousy ones. In general, NVidia's drivers are good quality and ATI's... well, aren't. But how about if I address this post to all the retards who use nvidia drivers? His statement was basically a troll to get a rise out of some of us. Proprietary is still proprietary, just ask the Vista users who were putting together a class-action lawsuit against nvidia. Intel graphics are all I need, so why would I ever mess with anything else? The Intel name is a guarantee that it will work out of the box. If the post had just said "I prefer nvidia" there would have been no problem. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 11:07 AM EDT |
> I don't impose my morality on you! Dude, read your post: > shrill and highly vocal minority of linux users |
| softwarejanitor May 11, 2007 11:09 AM EDT |
>> ATI - I personally have no time for that kind of grief, and I vigorously avoid any desktop hardware with ATI graphics > This is exactly the argument made by the shrill and highly vocal minority. I dunno... I may be guilty of being a "shrill and highly vocal minority", but I am with herzeleid, I actively avoid ATI video. I'm not a huge gamer, but I occasionally would like to play Unreal Tournament 2004 or Doom 3, and getting stuff like that to work well with ATI's drivers, even their binary ones is problematic. I wish nVidia would opensource their drivers, but their binary driver 'just works' and gameplay is flawless. I had to really go out of my way to find a suitable laptop that had AMD processor, DVD+/-RW DL drive and nVidia graphics with dedicated video memory... HP, Dell, etc, nobody had exactly the right combination of parts and software bundle (or lack thereof). I finally found one, but I had to go "white box" and install Linux myself to do it. FWIW, I ended up getting a Micro Star MS-17172B with 17" widescreen, Turion 64x2 TL-60 processor and nVidia GeForce Go7600 256MB. The only component that is not yet Linux compatible is the integrated webcam which is based on the ALi 56xx chipset. There is a driver being developed though, so that may not be a problem in the future. In the meantime I am using one of the little clip-on USB webcams that is Linux supported (made by A4 Tech). If Dell built a laptop like the one I bought and it came pre-loaded with Ubuntu I'd have bought one... |
| tuxchick May 11, 2007 11:13 AM EDT |
heh, you may recall the last time the subject of nVidia drivers came up, herzeleid was like pat and djbdns. I'm not going to argue, but simply cast my vote in the "yes, please supply nice good-quality FOSS video drivers. And for all hardware." mdomsch, I am impressed that Dell has people searching the Web etc. to find out what people are saying. It seems like a common-sense thing to do; after all, it's a huge pool of unfiltered free information. But few companies do that, and prefer to blow huge wads of money on silly things like focus groups (been there, done that, never want to do it again!) |
| herzeleid May 11, 2007 11:13 AM EDT |
>> bigg: Dude, read your post: > quoting me: shrill and highly vocal minority of linux users edit: OK point taken, "shrill" may be over the top. Consider "shrill" retracted. Surely you don't deny that within the broader community of linux users, there exists a highly vocal minority which condemns vendors like nvidia? I wince every time I read some of the flames these folks hurl at nvidia, because nvidia insist on writing their own video drivers and keeping the core IP confidential. Me, I'm just happy that nvidia drivers are available for linux, are well-maintained and up-to-date, and perform well, rather than being crippled subsets of the windoze drivers such as what other vendors have provided. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 11:18 AM EDT |
> herzeleid was like pat and djbdns Thanks for the warning. I was going to stop posting anyway because this really doesn't have anything to do with Matt's original post. |
| herzeleid May 11, 2007 11:19 AM EDT |
> tc: heh, you may recall the last time the subject of nVidia drivers came up, herzeleid was like pat and djbdns. I'm not going to argue, but simply cast my vote in the "yes, please supply nice good-quality FOSS video drivers. And for all hardware." Not a particularly apt comparison - djbdns is some arcane software, well out of the mainstream and not in common use. OTOH nvidia video with their proprietary drivers are popular, and represent the state of the art. People like me simply vote with their wallet. You see tc, I'm not telling you to use nvidia drivers, but encourage you to use whatever video setup your needs and motivations dictate. Hey, if you're using Linux, that's a net win IMHO, and that's the main point. |
| tuxchick May 11, 2007 11:47 AM EDT |
herzeleid, you lost me at "shrill and highly vocal minority." I value Free Software and the GPL very highly. If I wanted a closed, proprietary platform I would use a Mac. It always puzzles me why, with such an overwhelming number of closed, proprietary options to choose from, it's still not enough and so many people want to pollute our little Free corner of the world with closed, proprietary guff. It's like having a peeing section in a swimming pool. |
| SFN May 11, 2007 11:51 AM EDT |
Quoting:It's like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.Well, it's more like having a separate pool in which to pee. Asking that non-free drivers be available is not the same is requiring someone else to use them. |
| jdixon May 11, 2007 11:56 AM EDT |
I should probably add that while I'm currently using the open source nv driver for my NVidia card, I have used the NVidia drivers in the past. I switched to the nv driver because the current drivers no longer support my card, and the latest working drivers are incompatible with my installed kernel. I have no problem with people who choose to use the NVidia or ATI closed source drivers, and may switch back to the NVidia drivers when I upgrade my system again. I do have a problem with the quality of the ATI drivers, but that's another matter entirely. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 12:02 PM EDT |
> so many people want to pollute our little Free corner of the world Not only that, but call us childish names for wanting free software. And it's somehow telling other people what to do to say you don't like a proprietary software vendor telling you what to do. One reason I prefer Linux over Windows is because Microsoft can tell me to stand on my head in the EULA and there's nothing I can do about it if I want to use Windows. Apparently my not wanting to use proprietary software is somehow telling others what to do. Did anyone say Dell shouldn't offer a particular hardware option? Did Dell say that because of the shrill and highly vocal minority they would only offer Intel graphics? Is there something wrong with offering a laptop that doesn't require any proprietary drivers? The advantage of what Dell is doing is that they can, as much as possible, offer a computer that will work out of the box with any Linux distribution. I don't think there was ever a problem getting a computer that might work with Linux if a hardware vendor is in the mood that week to support Linux. |
| tuxchick May 11, 2007 12:14 PM EDT |
SFN, that is a better way to say it. Though lacking in pithiness. (get it? heeheehee) |
| softwarejanitor May 11, 2007 12:25 PM EDT |
> Asking that non-free drivers be available is not the same is requiring someone else to use them. Its not even that anyone is asking for non-free drivers, most of us are just glad that there are drivers that work. I'd rather the nVidia drivers be free. For those that insist on only free drivers, there are the slower open source ones. As for childish name calling, I've seen plenty of that towards the people who ask that making the binary drivers easy to use (like in Ubuntu) be done. Even moreso on any suggestion that the binary drivers included and "pullute our little Free corner of the world". I just don't think that some of the complaints and tactics I've seen from some parties towards nVidia are going to change the situation. There is a higher likelyhood that nVidia might just decide it isn't worth the trouble and quit developing and maintaining the binary drivers leaving Linux users without that option. I hope that now with AMD owning ATI that the rumors of them open sourcing their Linux drivers will come true and the general quality of their drivers will improve and they can give nVidia a serious run for their money. I applaud Intel for supporting open drivers, its just too bad that their graphics chips aren't on par performance wise with ATI or nVidia and generally aren't readiliy available as a standalone card for use in desktops for those of us who don't like motherboard graphics on non-laptops and/or who prefer AMD processors. |
| SFN May 11, 2007 12:49 PM EDT |
Sorry. I was busy pithing. |
| SFN May 11, 2007 12:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:And it's somehow telling other people what to do to say you don't like a proprietary software vendor telling you what to do.[Manuel]que?[/Manuel] |
| bigg May 11, 2007 12:57 PM EDT |
@SFN: Quoting herzeleid: the biggest difference, in case you missed it, is this: I don't impose my morality on you! |
| SFN May 11, 2007 1:00 PM EDT |
Got it. |
| bigg May 11, 2007 1:03 PM EDT |
Surprising that I've never won an award for writing well, isn't it? |
| herzeleid May 11, 2007 1:03 PM EDT |
Quoting: herzeleid, you lost me at "shrill and highly vocal minority."tc, did you get the memo? I've officially retracted the word "shrill". Surely you won't deny that there is a vocal minority who is not very good at playing well with others, if those others happen to be commercial and binary in nature. Quoting: I value Free Software and the GPL very highly. If I wanted a closed, proprietary platform I would use a Mac. Yes, I've heard this argument before - If I don't want to use linux as you do, without any proprietary drivers, then why don't I use some other OS? The answer is simple. I use linux because I like it best of all the OSes I've seen over the past dozen years or so. BTW I have a macbook pro as well, and I like it, but it's not linux. It's an interesting appliance, and is good at what it does, but I don't feel one with the machine, as I do when running linux. Bottom line: I prefer Linux. I prefer linux with good quality drivers. Quoting: It always puzzles me why, with such an overwhelming number of closed, proprietary options to choose from, it's still not enough and so many people want to pollute our little Free corner of the world with closed, proprietary guff. It's like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.Well, the peeing in the pool analogy is a bit strained, tee hee. I'm not forcing you to load binary drivers in your "swimming pool", just using them in mine. Let me put it this way: If I had a choice, all other things being equal, between closed source and FOSS drivers, I choose FOSS, hands down, every time. But that's not the choice here, is it? I have a choice between excellent binary drivers, or FOSS drivers which give me various amounts of grief in various ways. I don't want to make linux look crappy, by using substandard hardware or drivers, capice? When I show someone linux, I want to show them something decent, something that will make them say wow. Replacing the "wow" with slogans about the 4 freedoms just isn't going to impress these folks... |
| hughesjr May 11, 2007 1:07 PM EDT |
@mdomsch CentOS would LOVE to be distributed as a FREE enterprise solution by Dell. |
| dcparris May 11, 2007 1:14 PM EDT |
> Don says in his editorial that linux users don't want nvidia graphics because they demand completely open source drivers. It would be a mistake to tar all linux users with that brush - I speak for myself, and all the linux users that know personally, when I say that we specifically require nvidia graphics, since we want fully working high performance linux graphics, and have no qualms about nvidia binary drivers. I'm just getting back to this. My how time flies. Herzeleid, although I do indeed agree with the sentiment, I was quoting Libervis directly. Doesn't really change much, just a bit of clarification. And, for what it's worth, if we get good libre drivers, you won't have to worry about the proprietary ones to begin with. ;-) Not that I would stop you from choosing the proprietary stuff for yourself, but you would have a viable libre option available, and none of us would have to absolutely depend on the proprietary, which is largely the case now. [Edited] O.k., I forgot about my argument at the end of my own article. So, scratch that. - dcparris |
| herzeleid May 11, 2007 1:28 PM EDT |
Don, that is encouraging news indeed. I've been hearing interesting noises from Intel's direction for some time now. If we finally see trouble-free, "out of the box" hardware accelerated 3D on intel graphics using FOSS drivers, I will be among the many rejoicing, trust me. |
| rijelkentaurus May 11, 2007 1:38 PM EDT |
Quoting: If we finally see trouble-free, "out of the box" hardware accelerated 3D on intel graphics using FOSS drivers Perhaps we should write up a petition letter, sending it to AMD and copying Intel on it, warning that if Intel released high quality 3d FOSS drivers we would gladly ship AMD and ATI up the creek with no steering instrument? I'd sign it, I'm sure others would. And maybe we could send a copy to Nvidia..... Okay, probably dreaming...or does it sound like an idea? Seriously. Let's use these &*#^#(# against one another for our own benefit. |
| Abe May 11, 2007 3:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:Okay, probably dreaming...or does it sound like an idea? Seriously. Let's use these &*#^#(# against one another for our own benefit. We really don't need turning one against the other, we just buy from whomever supplies FOSS drives. Those who don't will get the message. |
| tuxchick May 11, 2007 3:09 PM EDT |
"But that's not the choice here, is it? I have a choice between excellent binary drivers, or FOSS drivers which give me various amounts of grief in various ways. I don't want to make linux look crappy, by using substandard hardware or drivers" OK, a light dawns. Here I was thinking your love of NVidia's binary drivers surpassed all bounds. Well OK then, now it's making sense. My hope is that Dell has enough interest and clout to foster the development of more FOSS hardware drivers; I wasn't suggesting that anyone be stuck with something they didn't want. |
| Sander_Marechal May 11, 2007 3:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:After a couple frustrating weeks futzing around endlessly with 915resolution and various X configs, we gave up on it, put it up for sale and bought a similar HP laptop with nvidia graphics. You do realize that that is not a problem with Intel or their driver, but a BIOS issue? Yes, Dell and HP (and I bet other's too) ship laptops with LCD monitors not supported by their BIOSes. Proprietry drivers work around that by overruling the BIOS. That's what 915resolution does. That's another suggestion to Dell engineers: Add all the newer monitor resolutions to your BIOS so we don't need 915resolution anymore. If that's too much, at the very least add whatever is native for the laptop plus the most common 4:3 and 16:9 high resolutions. |
| tracyanne May 11, 2007 3:27 PM EDT |
Well Listen to This DELL, we want Linux on DELL in Australia too. |
| jdixon May 11, 2007 3:30 PM EDT |
Personally, I hope Dell offers the option of a) Intel video with open source drivers, b) NVidia video with open source drivers, and c) NVidia video with NVidia's closed source drivers; so that people have the option of getting whatever they need. |
| dcparris May 11, 2007 3:39 PM EDT |
Yeah. What Tracyanne said. Actually, her point is a good one. Will Dell's GNU/Linux offering hit her part of the world anytime soon? |
| ABCC May 11, 2007 3:46 PM EDT |
Haha, after reading the article I was going to post the exact same point that jdixon just made. Naturally a fully open box would be ideal, but to demand that Dell _only_ sell linux pc's with OSS gfx drivers is asking for this entire effort on their part to fail. You could hardly blame them if they did offer Nvidia (or even ATI if they pulled their finger out) cards as a bonus upgrade. A fully open laptop would be absolutely golden, but for now I'd say a fully open desktop box that is suitable for the masses is pie in the sky. Remember, Dell's outreach is part exploratory, part marketing stunt. As more and more of the fabled 'early adopters' try out and learn to love linux, there is less chance that they'll recommend systems made by non-linux-friendly providers to their friends. And lets be honest, I'm sure many here have recommended a Dell at one point or another to their non-techie friends (or perhaps that annoying acquaintance :P) Regards, ABCC |
| dcparris May 11, 2007 4:17 PM EDT |
Actually, I've never recommended Dell to anyone. I almost always recommend checking out a local vendor. I did nearly buy one of the Red Hat Dell boxes when they initially sold Red Hat as an option, but wound up choosing a local vendor I knew and got better hardware for the same money, compared to the Dell system. In retrospect, I might have been smarter going with the Dell, or at least not trying to get that ATI All-in-Wonder Pro. I could never get the TV card to work with GNU/Linux. :-) I really think Dell is trying to figure out what to do next. I don't think it's a marketing stunt at all. Michael comes back and takes over at a low point in the company's history. They're in a little trouble right now. It's time to observe, to ask questions, to listen, to repeat back what they are hearing. I just hope they aren't like the guy I know who had an accident during the week, went to church on Sunday, came back to work on Monday, claiming he hadn't cursed and felt more relaxed, only to start cursing like a sailor on Tuesday, and then got busted for DUI in a second accident a couple weeks later. If Dell does all this listening, and then turns around and puts the Ubuntu line-up on a web page that you have to use ESP to obtain the URL, and doesn't tell anyone where to find these boxes, it will prove to be a bad experience for everyone involved. And, many HP boxes work with Debian out of the box. So, if Dell's boxes don't stand up, and the customers have a bad experience with them, again, it's more trouble. It's true that the "Conversations" project should prove to be a great PR gig. Still, I want to be sure that what we hear back from Dell is exactly what we have been telling them. |
| ABCC May 11, 2007 4:31 PM EDT |
I wont go so far as deriding it as a stunt, but I do recognise that my impression of a hardware vendor effects how I respond to the age old "So what PC should I buy?" question. If someone has made up their mind to purchase a Dell, knowing that I could easily recommend Ubuntu to them incase Windows gets borked, or recommend it and being confident that it would "just work" would certainly result in me not being negative about them. I fully agree with you on your latter points though dcparris, we've seen the marketing hoopla before and haven't forgotten. Dell have some brownie points to win before they can consider themselves in the good books. Dell may be about a year behind HP on thischasing the game already, but lately they've made a good effort in trying to get their point across, I'm looking forwards if they'll back it up or if theyll do an Unbreakable Dell. As for their Novell type deal, I'm beginning to think that if those patent clauses ever get brought in to court theyll be laughed right out again, Linux is here and it's here to stay, it's unlikely MS will be able to give it a RIM job (sorry, couldnt resist). Regards, ABCC P.S. Sounds like the guy you know needs a taxi number rather than the blood of christ. |
| dcparris May 11, 2007 5:05 PM EDT |
> P.S. Sounds like the guy you know needs a taxi number rather than the blood of christ. Well, he just came out of rehab. He's lost his job here as a result of not being able to travel back and forth, so that's pretty much that. I think Dell is trying to earn our respect. Still, they do have to earn it. I think their Conversations project is coherent/cohesive. If Michael manages to pull the disparate units together well, gets everyone on the same sheet of music, he will pull off a huge victory. |
| jdixon May 11, 2007 5:10 PM EDT |
> If Michael manages to pull the disparate units together well, gets everyone on the same sheet of music, he will pull off a huge victory. You're leaving out one step in the process DC. If people buy the systems. In addition to Dell doing their part, Linux users have to put their money where their mouth is. That's why that $450 is setting in my bank account. |
| ABCC May 11, 2007 5:29 PM EDT |
Dell, of course, don't necessarily need to focus their Ubuntu efforts in North America or Western Europe. If they feel the need to distribute Ubuntu as a more prominent choice in for example South America then that will have an impact on their policy here too. Todays high-end systems are tomorrows midrange. If you need them to run linux well in order to succeed in one particular market then you'll practically have to ensure linux is supported across your entire range. |
| mdomsch May 11, 2007 7:05 PM EDT |
@tracyanne: we've said that at first this will be a US-only offering. It will take some more time to make it available in other countries, but we're well aware of the requests. Linux is fundamentally a global movement, not specific to any one country or region. @jdixon: without disclosing which products we'll be selling, we're on exactly the same wavelength. As I mentioned in my blog back on March 28 http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/03/28/9655.aspx, we appreciate open source drivers and prefer them whenever possible. For video, you'll have a choice between the open-source driver and the closed-source driver (if there is either for any given chip). Thanks, Matt |
| Sander_Marechal May 12, 2007 3:46 AM EDT |
Matt, I really hope that you will give a choice of *chip*, not just a choice in driver for video. There's a very simple reason: Compiz/Beryl (the 3D desktop) works with the Intel chip and the free driver. Not with the Nvidia chip and free driver. That's why the "free driver" crowd prefers Intel over Nvidia. All the people that choose Nvidia will want the closed driver anyway. I suggest you offer these two options: 1) Intel graphics + free driver 2) Nvidia graphics + closed driver |
| Sander_Marechal May 12, 2007 3:48 AM EDT |
Matt, I really hope that you will give a choice of *chip*, not just a choice in driver for video. There's a very simple reason: Compiz/Beryl (the 3D desktop) works with the Intel chip and the free driver. Not with the Nvidia chip and free driver. That's why the "free driver" crowd prefers Intel over Nvidia. All the people that choose Nvidia will want the closed driver anyway. I suggest you offer these two options: 1) Intel graphics + free driver 2) Nvidia graphics + closed driver The only people that would choose Nvidia + free driver are the dual booters, and in that case you're far better off buying a Windows box instead of a Linux box (installing Windows on a Linux box is a pain because the Windows installer insists on eating the entire hard drive. The reverse is easy because Linux installers behave much better). |
| azerthoth May 12, 2007 7:17 AM EDT |
>> The only people that would choose Nvidia + free driver are the dual booters Care to try again? I have 4 computers in my house, only 1 of them is dual-boot, all of them are linux (2 PCLOS, 1 Debian, 1 Sabayon) and all of them are nVidia. Yes, before you ask all of them using the proprietary drivers. ... I just deleted a fairly vitriolic couple of paragraphs, in their place I will put, please be more careful in making sweeping statements. |
| herzeleid May 12, 2007 10:00 AM EDT |
Quoting: You do realize that that is not a problem with Intel or their driver, but a BIOS issue? Yes, Dell and HP (and I bet other's too) ship laptops with LCD monitors not supported by their BIOSes. Proprietry drivers work around that by overruling the BIOS. That's what 915resolution does.But of course - which is the whole reason we used 915resolution. The problem is, things don't really work out all that well, even with 915resolution. We were able to get accelerated 3D at 1024x768, and were happy about that - until we corrected the resolution. oops, no more 3D. We tried a number of times, using different combinations of default depth, resolution, and sync frequencies, and came to the sad conclusion that we could either have hardware accelerated 3D, or we could have the correct resolution. We also found that in trying different resolutions with the intel drivers, the screen would sometimes become corrupted, and nothing would fix it, short of a reboot, which is completely bizarre. In contrast, once we got the new laptop and installed the nvidia drivers, everything went smoothly and easily, it all worked perfectly, linux was happy and we were happy. Can you blame anyone for wanting to take the proprietary driver route, given the results? |
| dinotrac May 12, 2007 12:32 PM EDT |
> Can you blame anyone for wanting to take the proprietary driver route, given the results? It is very strange to see a conversation in which your desire for stuff that works well is confused with a love for proprietary drivers. I would love free nVidia drivers that come within shouting distance of the proprietary drivers. In the meantime, I need XvMC to make HD video work properly, and will use the proprietary drivers with no guilt whatsoever. |
| Sander_Marechal May 12, 2007 12:36 PM EDT |
@azeroth: I was talking about the free driver, not the closed one. Why would anyone, given a choice, pick a $400,- Nvidia video card and then only use it in 2D with the free driver? Answer: people who dual-boot it with Windows to play the games. @herzeleid: Yes, the closed driver does it better than the open driver. But the problem is caused by the BIOS and should be corrected in the bios, not hacked around by the driver. All it proves so far is that Nvidia is better at hacking around BIOS problems than we are (with free drivers). |
| jdixon May 12, 2007 12:45 PM EDT |
> Why would anyone, given a choice, pick a $400,- Nvidia video card and then only use it in 2D with the free driver? They probably wouldn't, but they might purchase a motherboard with the Geforce 6150 video onboard; or pick up and old FX5200, a Geforce 6200LE, a Geforce 7100GS, or a Geforce 7300LE, all of which can be purchased for less than $50. In which case they're probably not a gamer, and they may be able to get by with the open source nv driver with no problems. |
| dinotrac May 12, 2007 1:25 PM EDT |
>for less than $50. In which case they're probably not a gamer, and they may be able to get by with the open source nv driver with no problems. Maybe not a gamer, but some of those cards are highly desirable for MythTV because they are passively cooled (as in low-power and silent) and provide support for MPEG video decoding via XvMC. You can put together a pretty decent digital tv center that way, as digital TV is a special case of MPEG. The rub is that you gotta use the proprietary driver to get XvMC. |
| Sander_Marechal May 12, 2007 4:30 PM EDT |
I just heared there's a better alternative coming. I've already posted it to the queue but I'm overjoyed so I'm posting here as well: http://enterpriselinuxlog.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/05/09/am... Quoting:AMD will soon deliver open graphics drivers, said Henri Richard just a few minutes ago, and the audience at the opening keynote of the Red Hat Summit broke into applause and cheers. Richard, AMD’s executive vice president of sales and marketing, promised: “I’m here to commit to you that it’s going to get done.” He also promised that AMD is “going to be very proactive in changing way we interface with the Linux community.” I'll be buying an AMD/ATI card the day they release the drivers :-) |
| azerthoth May 12, 2007 4:35 PM EDT |
This is good news ... pardon me while I wait for performance statistics. |
| bigg May 12, 2007 4:38 PM EDT |
I'm at least going to wait for confirmation from AMD before I believe it. |
| Sander_Marechal May 12, 2007 4:54 PM EDT |
Why do you think I hold off buying a card until the drivers are there? It's good news, but the proof is in releasing code :-) |
| richo123 May 13, 2007 6:00 AM EDT |
So now Dell and AMD are cultivating linux. Interesting trend there..... |
| Abe May 13, 2007 10:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:So now Dell and AMD are cultivating linux. Interesting trend there..... I can't wait to see how other OEMs going to jump on the bandwagon. If Dell speeds up their roll out of Linux desktops, which it seems they are, they will capture most of the PC users market and become #1 again. |
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