Change to Windows Vista EULA
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Bob_Robertson Mar 29, 2008 4:49 PM EDT |
Forgive me if I'm the last person to know, but in trying to get a refund for an unwanted OEM of Vista Home Premium, HP tech support said "There is no way to get a Vista refund." So I figured I'd read the EULA, maybe photograph the screen for proof, that not only am I due a refund, but it says the "retailer". No, it doesn't say "retailer", that was before. Microsoft has changed the EULA. It now says, in big print, "YOU AGREE TO ALL THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS EULA. BY INSTALLING, COPYING, DOWNLOADING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THESE LICENSE TERMS, YOUR SOLE REMEDY IS TO RETURN THE ENTIRE UNUSED PRODUCT (HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE) WITHIN 14 DAYS FOR A REFUND SUBJECT TO THE REFUND POLICY OF YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE." So much for the refund. Microsoft found their way out of it. Scum. Debian is going to feel so good on this machine... |
| tracyanne Mar 29, 2008 5:07 PM EDT |
Time to stop buying computers from any seller other than those that sell pre installed Linux. |
| gus3 Mar 29, 2008 6:13 PM EDT |
But that assumes I've read the EULA. How can I agree to something I never saw? I turned on the system only long enough to make sure the keyboard and mouse were working, and the system could boot from the hard disk. Once I got to the first screen that expected input, I held the power button down until it shut off. I read no EULA. I saw no EULA. And there is no printed EULA. Maybe I should be contacting a lawyer... |
| hkwint Mar 30, 2008 2:45 AM EDT |
Well, because you didn't read the EULA before buying the machine there's the possibility to return the whole entire product I guess. And if you return the entire product, you really have to hope the place of purchase does have a refund policy, because most of the times I'm sure they haven't - and they will glaze at you. |
| dinotrac Mar 30, 2008 3:58 AM EDT |
Look at the bright side -- The Windows Refund movement had an effect. |
| jezuch Mar 30, 2008 4:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:How can I agree to something I never saw? That's the whole point of MS EULAs. People [almost] never read them - but it works anyway - it's magic! Question of the year: is magic forbidden by law? |
| gus3 Mar 30, 2008 8:05 AM EDT |
@jezuch: It isn't that I ignored it. The system never showed it to me. Ignoring it wasn't a choice. |
| dinotrac Mar 30, 2008 8:08 AM EDT |
gus3 - I don't understand your question. If you never read the EULA, broke the seal, or whatever else was involved, you aren't covered by it. Why do you think that you are? |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 30, 2008 9:08 AM EDT |
Just as a side note, since I'm shafted anyway, I tried Vista during the 3 hours it took to make up the system restore disks. It is an unmitigated PIG! Just to bring up the program menu took 15 seconds, every time. Just to go into control panels took 15-20 seconds of waiting with that little spinning circle. And that's on a dual-core 1.6GHz machine with a SATA drive! Vista's loathsome reputation is well earned. P.S.: Debian does indeed scream on this box. However, the Atheros wifi card isn't responding to the madwifi driver, so this may take a while to get resolved. I am learning to hate. |
| techiem2 Mar 30, 2008 9:15 AM EDT |
Heh.
My boss ran Vista on his laptop (to get used to it for when he actually has to deal with it) for a year and then finally gave up on it.
If an IT Pro can't get used to working with Vista in a year, something's definitely wrong. And about that EULA change, can't say I'm all that surprised about it. One possible bright side may be that those looking for a comp to put Linux on may be more likely now to buy one preinstalled instead of buying one with Windows and hoping to get a refund (assuming they know of this change). |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 30, 2008 9:44 AM EDT |
> (assuming they know of this change) Since I didn't know about it, I made sure to post it here loudly. :^) |
| dinotrac Mar 30, 2008 11:35 AM EDT |
To be honest, the EULA change doesn't amount to much. It explicitly states something that, in most places, would be the presumed result anyway. Some vendors gave refunds that they really didn't have to. A few low level courts made bad decisions. Who knows? There may even be the oddball jurisdiction here and there that presumed differently. Anyway, at least it is now clearly stated. That has to be an improvement, if you think about it. |
| jdixon Mar 30, 2008 4:18 PM EDT |
> And that's on a dual-core 1.6GHz machine with a SATA drive! Vista's loathsome reputation is well earned. How much memory? Vista needs at least 2 Gig to run half way well. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 31, 2008 8:47 AM EDT |
> How much memory? 1GB. Not enough for Vista, but twice as much as a any Linux machine I've had before. But I really got it for my daughter, and as a backup for my own in case poop strikes the impeller. I do not _like_ wide-screens, unless the vertical pixels are going to be more than what I have already (1600x1050) I see no decrease in screen size (by either axis) to be an "improvement". She loves it. That's enough. Now about that network card.... |
| techiem2 Mar 31, 2008 8:55 AM EDT |
Quoting:unless the vertical pixels are going to be more than what I have already (1600x1050) That was my main issue in buying a new flatscreen recently. I was using a 19" 3:4 1280x1024 as my primary, and wanted a new primary since I wanted to move the 19" to secondary to replace the dying crt I was using there. I don't mind widescreen (it's getting hard to find 3:4 screens these days anyway), but I didn't want to lose vertical size on my primary. I ended up getting a nice Samsung 206BW 1680x1050 Widescreen as my new primary. And man I like it. :) |
| jdixon Mar 31, 2008 9:09 AM EDT |
> 1GB. Not enough for Vista... Yep. With 2 GB the machine would probably be usable, for relative values of the term. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2008 12:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:Yep. With 2 GB the machine would probably be usable, for relative values of the term. But 4 Gig is best. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 31, 2008 12:48 PM EDT |
> But 4 Gig is best. Best is erasing Vista. Cheaper too. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2008 1:01 PM EDT |
Quoting:Cheaper too. Better, but not cheaper, you've already paid Microsoft for it, if it was preinstalled on the computer. |
| theboomboomcars Mar 31, 2008 1:19 PM EDT |
He may have been referring that it is cheaper to erase Vista than get 4gb of ram. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 31, 2008 1:39 PM EDT |
> cheaper to erase Vista than get 4gb of ram. Oh yeah! |
| tuxtom Mar 31, 2008 6:39 PM EDT |
Quoting:...you've already paid Microsoft for it, if it was preinstalled on the computer. Yes, but that is like complaining about a new car you want having Goodyear tires installed at the factory. If you want BFGoodrich you are better off doing it yourself than paying the dealer to do it for you. You are not going to get an OEM Linux computer cheaper sans Windows. You may be able to do so building it with your own components, but that is like asking to buy a car with no tires. Someone might sell one to you with a lot of convincing, but you are not going to find them on the lot. You just aren't. The economics of the world will never support it. Install your own stuff and get on with it. Isn't that what Linux is about? If Linux was ready it would be there...it isn't ready by any stretch. I just switched my father back to Mac OS X from a factory Ubuntu Dell because OEM Linux isn't ready (and got a nice 1420N out of the deal for myself!!!). Yes, it works, but that isn't good enough to be OEM. You still need to be soemwhat of a power user for Linux to be a really viable daily desktop. I'm so impressed with his new Mac (10.5) that I almost want one...and I hate Apple. (Of course he prefers Firefox and I installed NeoOffice, etc., for him). I would never give up my Linux, but for everyday computing it just isn't ready for the average end user...we are not average end users. For my own stuff any pre-installed Linux system would be inadequate anyway...I'd just wipe it and install what I want the way I want it. This is really a PCWorld argument, not a LXer argument. Savvy shoppers can save money without resorting to to the (yawn) Windows tax argument. Caveat emptor. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2008 7:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:I just switched my father back to Mac OS X from a factory Ubuntu Dell because OEM Linux isn't ready (and got a nice 1420N out of the deal for myself!!!). Yes, it works, but that isn't good enough to be OEM. Maybe Ubuntu isn't ready - it's never worked properly for me, and has always been way too much work getting it right. But I've got an 80 year old using Linux, and the only questions she has are to do with differences between what she used to use (on Windows) and what she's got now. She's doing fine, as in fact are all the people I've set up with Linux, including a 9 year old boy, and a bunch of people in between. |
| rijelkentaurus Mar 31, 2008 8:19 PM EDT |
Quoting: Maybe Ubuntu isn't ready Not being an Ubuntu fan, I would pretty much agree with this. However, I have a 12-year-old nephew and a 16-year-old niece both running Ubuntu with no problems, no arguments and no calls to me for help...unlike other members of my family who use Windows who need help quite commonly. My lady is now running PCLOS 2007 and is doing fine. For most people, I think one of four distros (PCLOS, Mandriva, Red Hat/CentOS, Debian) would do just fine and they would run them without problems, and never look back. Heck, how much computer knowhow do you need for email and web surfing??? And there are surely more than those four that would be good for a new user, but those are the ones I am personally comfortable recommending. Quoting: If Linux was ready it would be there...it isn't ready by any stretch. Sorry, I think you're just plain wrong. Vista? Okay, Vista's not ready by any stretch...but Linux is ready to hit prime time. OS X is not as "intuitive" as the ads would have you believe...new OS X users need some handholding also. Leaps beyond Vista and XP, yes...but then so is BeOS. :) |
| tuxchick Mar 31, 2008 9:01 PM EDT |
Quoting: OS X is not as "intuitive" as the ads would have you believe...new OS X users need some handholding also. Feh. OS X is not intuitive at all- another great myth. It's just as abstract and artificial as any computing environment. If it's so magically easy, why is "Mac OS X [foo]: The Missing Manual" one of the all-time best-selling computer books? iPhone and iPod too- sheesh. http://oreilly.com/store/bestsellers.html Linux is more than OEM- and desktop-ready, and has been for a number of years now. |
| jdixon Mar 31, 2008 9:26 PM EDT |
> It's just as abstract and artificial as any computing environment. I heard a great quote by someone several years ago. He said, quoting from memory: "The only intuitive interface is a nipple. Everything else is learned behavior." |
| gus3 Mar 31, 2008 10:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:OS X is not intuitive at all- another great myth."The only intuitive interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned." http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2002/08/nipple.html |
| softwarejanitor Apr 01, 2008 9:29 AM EDT |
I bought a Microstar laptop w/o OS... Turion 64 dual core 2GHz, 2G of memory, 120G SATA drive, nVidia GeForce 7600 with 256M of dedicated video memory and a really nice 17" 1680x1050 LCD, internal mini-PCI WiFi (RaLink chipset), DVD+/-RW Dual Layer, built in SD/XD/MS/MMC card reader, etc... Everything on it works out of the box with Ubuntu 7.10 except the built in webcam. Someone is working on a driver for that so even that may be eventually supported. FWIW, the online dealer I bought it from was kind of useless... they sell preloaded Linux on some of their machines (Fedora or licensed Red Hat) but they couldn't figure it out on this one. They just picked the wrong distro I think, since its nearly perfect without effort under Ubuntu... I probably would not have bought from them except they had the cheapest price for the particular model. I switched my Ubuntu over to Kubuntu though because I prefer KDE to Gnome... If I had to buy another laptop I'd definitely go for a Microstar, even though it wasn't exactly cheap (mostly due to the graphics, the ATI or non-dedicated memory nVidia models are way cheaper). |
| techiem2 Apr 01, 2008 9:46 AM EDT |
*hugs his ZaReason UltraLapSR again* :) Yes, I could have gotten something pretty similar for a little less, but I figure it's worth paying a little more to support FOSS. For desktops, I build them myself of course. I've done too much work on retail/oem boxes to trust them for my use. rant Who in their right mind (*glares at HP*) sells a Celeron 3Ghz XP box with 256MB RAM! /rant |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 01, 2008 11:23 AM EDT |
> For desktops, I build them myself of course. Couldn't agree more. Right now I've been looking at one of the Ebay stores that lets me specify absolutely everything. http://myworld.ebay.com/magic-micro There's also a local storefront which specializes in recycling machines that have been "cycled out" by companies around here. They have a _rack_ of 2.8GHz P4 Dell mini-towers, wanting about $450 each. Not bad, but for $450 I can get a brand new Phenom from the former shop, so long as I'm going to reuse my DVD, CD, HD &etc. It really is the laptops. I'm very interested to hear about the Microstar that Janitor mentions above. Almost sorry I didn't hear about it before, but say la damned vee. Speaking of which, can someone recommend a USB 802.11b/g that works under Linux? I have given up on the internal card at this time. |
| techiem2 Apr 01, 2008 2:21 PM EDT |
My Zyxel card/scanner with the zd1211 chipset works nicely (though I don't use it much now that I have my new laptop with a decent card built in).
Not so great a card for kismet though, as there's some glitchiness in the driver that gives you all sorts of weird results, but for normal wifi use it's great. |
| helios Apr 01, 2008 5:07 PM EDT |
Seeing how I have some of the brightest minds accumulated in the same room, let me pitch something here and see if the ump calls ball or strike. The LINdependence 2008 project is starting to coast along on it's own...barely but it is moving. What we want to do is post an occasional ad in the local Felton newspaper with just a snippet of info about MS Eulas...maybe some commentary such as: "...and by clicking the mouse at any time or touching any key on your keyboard, you agree to all facets of the Microsoft End Users Agreement and any and all that may be written in amendment or totality on the future." Did you know that this is the actual language you are "agreeing to" every time you click "I agree" at the end of the Microsoft agreement? With Linux, there will never be....bla bla bla I am looking for someone to cherry pick the most egregious and outrageous parts of the MS Eulas so we can do this. Maybe a placeboard in a business window, maybe a newspaper ad every couple of weeks, maybe even inserts in some friendly eatery menus around town. I sure would appreciate the help. h |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 01, 2008 8:42 PM EDT |
Ken, have a look at http://www.cyber.com.au/about/comparing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf (PDF). |
| salparadise Apr 01, 2008 10:48 PM EDT |
OSX is massively intuitive if you have prior computing experience. Personally I tried OSX after several years of Windows and Linux use and found OSX to be 99% instantly obvious. I found myself looking for things were I thought they ought to be and finding them there. To me that says "well thought out" and it also says "designed by users". If OSX was the first OS I'd used I'd be as lost as I was when I got my first Windows computer. When it comes to design Apple are way ahead of everyone. By miles. You can rip them apart for their stance on DRM, pricing, attitude towards the rest of the world, environmental impact and so on, but not on design. Nothing is perfect of course, and OSX has it's drawbacks as does every other OS. It falls down on the "but what I want to do isn't an option" thing. As long as what you want to do has been anticipated by the OSX Dev's then you're fine. Stray off the path and you soon get into difficulties without the afore mentioned "missing manual" or 3rd party help. |
| rijelkentaurus Apr 02, 2008 3:35 AM EDT |
Quoting: OSX is massively intuitive if you have prior computing experience. Quoting: When it comes to design Apple are way ahead of everyone. By miles. Sorry, Sal, I am not buying it. I have used Macs and supported them to limited degrees, they are no more intuitive than anything else. But I agree on your point about straying from the intended dev path...but that is part of what is great about freedom and FOSS, that your direction is not chosen by your corporate masters. |
| softwarejanitor Apr 02, 2008 7:38 AM EDT |
Bob -- Microstar (a.k.a. MSI in the motherboard business) is one of the biggest Tiawan/China PC component makers. They make a lot of the laptop chassis used by "white box" vendors and have a wide variety of models. You should be able to find quite a number of companies that will sell you the parts or custom assemble one for you. Their chief competitor in that market is ASUS, which also makes a quality product, however after much googling I personally liked the combination of features that the particular model Microstar I bought offered. The main features I wanted were the 17" screen, nVidia graphics chip with dedicated video memory and AMD processor. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 02, 2008 8:25 AM EDT |
> The main features I wanted were the 17" screen, nVidia graphics chip with dedicated video memory and AMD processor. HP has something like that, too. Oh well. Anyway, I wanted to post that I found a USB Wifi adapter, which the seller specifically notes as being "Suppored by Linux 2.6.6 and later". http://stores.ebay.com/AsianNetStore Maybe Maverick is going to be flying it out with a load of rubber dog poop. :^) |
| number6x Apr 02, 2008 8:57 AM EDT |
helios, I would notify people of the sections of the EULA where the user agrees to let Microsoft gather information from their computer. Starting on Page 9 of Con's analysis PDF linked above you see: Quoting:Microsoft may use this information solely to improve our products or to provide customized services or technologies to you. Microsoft may disclose this information to others, but not in a form that personally identifies you. You should point these out especially to small business owners who might be covered under some of the federal privacy or financial laws, or local laws that require privacy. Microsoft states that it will not disclose any private information about you, but what about a lawyer's clients (violation of local laws), a doctor's patients (Violating Federal HIPAA regulations), or a financial broker or banker (violating Federal SEC regulations). It may very well be that Microsoft will not share this information, but according to most of these kinds of laws the keeper of the information must have a written statement from all parties who have access to controlled information stating that the party with access will abide by all laws. An example could be a Doctor who uses Windows and keeps patients names and addresses in Outlook or in an Access database. By agreeing to the EULA, the Doctor has granted Microsoft permission to view Private Health Information (PHI). The Doctor is required by HIPAA to prove that Microsoft will not violate HIPPA with the PHI of patients. Does the Doctor have the paperwork to prove that to the feds? I know that Microsoft would probably only be interested in the registry and system files, but their EULA is broad and open ended. They do not put limits on what files they will look at. They only say that they will not share data in a way that will identify you. Since the Doctor gives them the right to examine data on his PC, he must either encrypt the PHI data or get a statement from Microsoft and keep it current. Or he could just stay in violation of federal laws. |
| softwarejanitor Apr 02, 2008 11:47 AM EDT |
Bob -- If it is the HP I am thinking of you should probably avoid it because the internal WiFi is based on a Broadcom chipset which is problematic under both Linux and Windows. The Microstar internal mini-PCI WiFi card on the other hand uses a RaLink chipset which is supported out of the box on Ubuntu 7.10 and I would suspect many other distros. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 06, 2008 6:21 AM EDT |
Ya know, it has occurred to me that I have a MSI motherboard here in the house. It's my wife's Windows machine (for all that Chinese malware). There is something very wrong with the system, it will not boot Linux normally. It will boot Knoppix or any other liveCD if I can pass on the parameter "nodma", but otherwise no joy. I'm glad to hear that their more recent units will run without troubles. The HP indeed does use the Broadcom wifi, and it sucks major swamp water. Luckily it does work under 2.6.23, but there was a change to the Broadcom drivers under 2.6.24 that made it not work again. What burns my butt is that the HP boot-ROM disable the cardslot if I replace the Broadcom POS with, say, an Intel3945 or other well-supported wifi chipset. |
| jdixon Apr 06, 2008 6:45 AM EDT |
> ...the HP boot-ROM disable the cardslot if I replace the Broadcom POS.. Other people occasionally recommend HP to me. For reasons like this, and others too numerous to mention, I generally despise HP machines. As bad as Dell can be, I've found their machines to be far easier to work with (both with Windows and Linux) than HP. |
| techiem2 Apr 06, 2008 6:51 AM EDT |
Quoting:It will boot Knoppix or any other liveCD if I can pass on the parameter "nodma", but otherwise no joy. hmm. I'll have to try that in our HP lab...I haven't gotten it to boot anything other than SystemRescueCD... |
| hkwint Apr 06, 2008 8:00 AM EDT |
"YOU AGREE TO ALL THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS EULA. BY INSTALLING, COPYING, DOWNLOADING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THESE LICENSE TERMS, YOUR SOLE REMEDY IS TO RETURN THE ENTIRE UNUSED PRODUCT (HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE) WITHIN 14 DAYS FOR A REFUND SUBJECT TO THE REFUND POLICY OF YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE." Wait a minute... If the new EULA covers downloading too, than I could theoretically download Vista on my 2 year old Linux box and take my entire product back to the hardware store and maybe receive a refund? I should try that! |
| techiem2 Apr 06, 2008 8:11 AM EDT |
LOL That would be funny... I mean, it doesn't specify within 14 days of the hardware purchase...it sounds more like 14 days of the license non-agreement.... |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 06, 2008 9:19 AM EDT |
Ohh... There's a nice loophole. Buy a PC. Install linux (leave Windows). Use it a couple of years, then disagree with the EULA and return the box for a refund :-) |
| dinotrac Apr 06, 2008 1:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:SUBJECT TO THE REFUND POLICY OF YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 06, 2008 4:22 PM EDT |
Dino: Stop popping my evil plans ;-) Oh wait: Evil plan still here. What happens if the shop doesn't allow refunds or has a no-return policy? Under the old EULA you could point to the EULA and make the shop take back the computer. So what happens now? There could be a great lawsuit in this. After all, you don't see the EULA until you bought the box, took it home and powered it on... |
| dinotrac Apr 06, 2008 5:17 PM EDT |
>So what happens now? The EULA says that any promises it contains are subject to the refund policy where you bought the system. That means they are the ones who decide whether or not you can return the computer. Of course, applicable local law must be followed, but, the EULA more or less says that you, as a consumer, should buy from places that accept returns. |
| gus3 Apr 06, 2008 6:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:the EULA more or less says that you, as a consumer, should buy from places that accept returns.Which you can't see until you actually buy it and take it home... How is this any different from an illegal click-wrap? |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 1:44 AM EDT |
gus3 -Quoting:Which you can't see until you actually buy it and take it home.. Nonsense. Most stores that I'm aware of post their return policies for the world to see. The EULA merely says the store's policy applies. No surprises there. If you buy from a store that doesn't take returns, you are SOL, but you would have been SOL for a variety of reasons, including, for example, the discovery that the manufacturer had changed a couple of components and the machine would not now work with Linux. . |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 07, 2008 2:17 AM EDT |
@dino: Gus was pointing out that you can't see the EULA until you get home. Not that you can't see the return policy until you get home. |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 5:07 AM EDT |
Sander - I know what he was saying. The big question is: So what? It makes no difference. If you don't want the machine, take it back to where you bought it, under the same terms and conditions that would apply if you decided that the screen wasn't bright enough or the color was all wrong. Big deal. One note: While at it, explain either: a) Why you bought a Windows machine but don't want Windows, or b) where you will legally get Windows with different terms. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 07, 2008 6:46 AM EDT |
Quoting:Why you bought a Windows machine but don't want Windows Because you read the EULA when you booted the machine for the first time and decide the terms are unacceptable. |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 7:28 AM EDT |
Which is fine. That, of course means you don't want a Windows machine at all and should just take the stupid thing back. You don't need the stupid EULA to tell you that, even though it now does so explicitly. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 07, 2008 7:42 AM EDT |
Quoting:Which is fine. That, of course means you don't want a Windows machine at all and should just take the stupid thing back. Yes. But the store says they have a no return policy. An now the EULA says that the store policy applies. And then you're stuck. Which was my entire point to begin with. This new EULA in combination with a "no return" policy in a store is a violation of consumer protection acts here in Europe (which, I admit, are usually tougher than the same laws in the US). |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 8:21 AM EDT |
Sander - You would be stuck anyway. EULA makes no difference to anything. If you shop at a store with a "no return" policy, you accept responsibility for problems like that. The reality is that very few stores --- mostly liquidators -- have policies like that, and they make the no return policy very explicit. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2008 8:29 AM EDT |
> The reality is that very few stores --- mostly liquidators -- have policies like that... And even most of those that do will probably give in to an irate customer (since they know only too well that the cost of not doing so may still mean the return of said computer; through the store's plate glass window). This only works once though, and will probably result in your never being allowed in said store again. |
| techiem2 Apr 07, 2008 8:36 AM EDT |
Quoting:through the store's plate glass window People still buy computers at physical stores? O.o :P |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2008 9:02 AM EDT |
> People still buy computers at physical stores? O.o Their physical address is usually somewhere on the website, and we've been known to drive 200 miles round trip to visit a good restaurant, so... |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 9:11 AM EDT |
>People still buy computers at physical stores? O.o Not only is immediate gratification nice, but some things are more than the sum of their specifications: 1. How does a keyboard feel? 2. What does the monitor really look like? 3. Is it clunky, not clunky, are it's oddities something you will notice? Some things are subjective and it's nice to touch what you buy in those cases. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 07, 2008 9:17 AM EDT |
Quoting:You would be stuck anyway. EULA makes no difference to anything. Yes and no. The old EULA helped because you could shove it in the store owner's face and make him read the part about getting a refund from your vendor :-) Now you'll have to small claims court for the refund (under most european consumer protection laws you're still entitled to a full cash refund because you can't disagree with the EULA until after the sale is done). The biggest change is that with the old EULA you were entitled to a refund because the EULA says so. Now you're entitled because comsumer protection laws say so. |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 9:44 AM EDT |
I am really confused as to why you think the EULA matters. The old EULA was ambiguous and created the illusion of redress that, in most cases, did not exist. You could always return the machine (so long as you don't buy it "as is") and you can still return the machine. Out of curiosity: What, exactly would you go to court claiming on the basis of the new EULA? Who would you sue? If you don't want Windows, why buy a WIndows machine? If you do want Windows, where will you get a better EULA? If you can't, what harm has the vendor done you? There might be a few low-level judges who award you something just because low-level judges aren't all, ahem, very good. But...what is the harm you have suffered? |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 07, 2008 9:59 AM EDT |
> 3. Is it clunky, not clunky, are it's oddities something you will notice?
This is a good answer to "Why did you buy the Windows POS in the first place?" that some of you might be wondering. Fact is, this little Compaq with Vista on it was a good price at the right time in a place where we could get our grubby little hands on it. I _hate_ returning things when it's my fault. So mail-order, when a disappointment to me, is very much a disappointment, because I'm unlikely to return it for some personal thing rather than actual damage or "undocumented feature". I'll just call it my own darned fault and move on. Being able to walk in and poke and prod is worth a small premium. And when the unit is on clearance, such as this one, that premium gets smaller. Oh, and I get the challenge of making Linux run on it. What fun would there be if it came pre-installed? :^) |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 07, 2008 10:54 AM EDT |
Quoting:What, exactly would you go to court claiming on the basis of the new EULA? Who would you sue? On basis of the new EULA? Nothing. I'd claim on the basis of consumer protection laws. You can't shove a EULA like that in my face after the sale and then refuse to take back the machine if I refuse to accept it. And I'd sue the vendor of course. |
| dinotrac Apr 07, 2008 11:18 AM EDT |
>You can't shove a EULA like that in my face after the sale and then refuse to take back the machine if I refuse to accept it. I don't know about the Netherlands, but, in the United States, you absolutely can if you designate the sale as an "as is, no returns" item. I would bet that's true in your neck of the woods, too, else lots of surplus junk would never get liquidated, and retailers would have one heck of a time going out of business. As a practical matter -- and the default situation under US law -- retailers do take returns. For the reason why, just check out a liquidator some time and see how steeply they have to discount those "as is" items. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 07, 2008 1:23 PM EDT |
> see how steeply they have to discount those "as is" items. Oh yeah. Not being able to return demands a _serious_ cut in price. By the same token, the seller is saving themselves any possible costs for the hassle of accepting returns, so it works both ways. "As is" has always been a signal of deep discounts because of me (the buyer) accepting the risk. Now, let's talk about getting the retailers to point out this policy ahead of time! Personally, I went back to the salesman and told him what came of my attempt at a refund. He was very interested. |
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