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| Author | Content |
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| tracyanne May 21, 2008 12:17 AM EDT |
There will be no salvation fro Linux from the corporate world. We have to do it ourselves. People like Ken are our salvation. |
| DiBosco May 21, 2008 5:59 AM EDT |
I don't think this is the case. To me it's when the people at the top of corporates realise how much money running Linux would save them and force lazy IT departments into learning something new - thus exposing "ordinary" PC users to Linux. Once that happens, people will realise it's easy to use and not be scared to use it at home too. From what I understand this kind of mass-deployment is already happening with places like the French police and the Dutch local authorities are looking closely at it. I think it's inevitable. Corporates will not be able to resist the huge savings FOSS would bring them. |
| dumper4311 May 21, 2008 8:58 AM EDT |
Yes (kind of) He makes some good points about the shift to a network centric computing environment. Personally, I don't care for it too much - the question of "who owns your data?" still reigns. He notes this point in the article, saying that we've just exchanged one master for another. Still, changing masters is a step towards regaining ones techno-sovereignty. It's hard to deny the move (corporate or otherwise) towards widespread Linux use; it's slow, but it is happening. Take for example the recent moves by Asus (Eee PC and Splashtop). Note that splashtop isn't a technology exclusive to Asus either. Intel and Wind River working together on Linux mobile media systems for autos, and all the mobile work being done (Android, etc.) with Linux lately are other examples. Rumors about Valve's Steam port to Linux and a settop box from Netflix (DRM and all) hint towards a major shift in the entertainment market also. Again, it's a slow process, but it is happening on a corporate level. It's important to note however, tracyanne is completely accurate in this - "We have to do it ourselves." Even if the market was 50+% Linux desktop based, there will always be corporate interests like MS looking to control your data. In every case, and on every platform, you will own your data only when you take control of it. Open source and open standards are a requirement in that respect. Of the two, truly open and interoperable standards are by far the most important - I'd happily pay for a well designed closed source program that respects the integrity of my data and my sovereignty as it's owner. The code serves me as a user, or it's of no value - my data is far more valuable. This is why the platform wars have been so difficult for us to make any progress in - we're fighting the wrong battle. We've won the F/OSS battle, we are a viable option. That battle is decided, and we should stop bickering over the use of supposedly "free" code. We need to focus on widespread support of open standards (via F/OSS preferably, but also by any other means available). When our DATA is free, then you'll see movement en masse to whatever platform is most functional and cost effective. Another thing tracyanne and I agree on: people like Ken are heroes. But it's not necessarily for the reason we tend to focus on. Spreading Linux is great, but teaching independence and personal responsibility are far more valuable. Ultimately that's how we win, and thats why people like Ken are our salvation. How's that for pressure, helios? :) |
| Steven_Rosenber May 21, 2008 9:44 AM EDT |
Whether or not cloud services are the next great hope for Linux in particular (and I happen to think they will play a very large role very soon), I see cloud computing, software as a service, whatever you want to call it, as a technology that will only grow and eventually dominate in the next, say, 5 to 10 years. While many companies have excellent IT teams and love to throw money at their infrastructure, many more will leap at the chance to outsource as much data management as possible. And if they run the numbers and see a good deal from Amazon, Google or any number of other players scaling up their clouds, I see nothing but growth for the companies offering these services. One thing with Amazon, it costs a little to store a little data, but they really make it up in volume. I don't have the numbers, but this is no loss leader for Amazon, that's for sure. |
| garymax May 21, 2008 11:50 AM EDT |
>>I see cloud computing, software as a service, whatever you want to call it, as a technology that will only grow and eventually dominate in the next, say, 5 to 10 years. Does anyone find it ironic that the very technology that we love and use everyday--namely, Linux--is possibly the same technology that will take away our freedom? Now, before you start to throw rocks let me explain. Linux is the most dominate platform that is being used to fit out "the cloud" and for offering SAAS. Google uses it and many others are using Linux, too. And I believe that SAAS or cloud computing makes sense in a limited number of circumstances. But if it takes off and changes the computer as we know it (a fat client) into an appliance (a thin client with just enough power to connect to the network), how many of you have considered the fallout from such an occurrence? First, you will no longer be able to choose a Linux distro because everything is delivered over the cloud into a web browser. Your OS will be irrelevant. Second, you will not be able to compile a kernel or an application because everything is delivered over the cloud into a web browser. Compiling will be a non-factor as the apps will be compiled by some entity other than you. Third, you will store most everything on the network as everything is delivered over the cloud into a web browser. No local access to apps--at least, not yet. Fourth, you will not control your data to the same extent as you do now because everything is delivered over the cloud into a web browser. Fifth, no need to study system administration, programming, or scripting because you won't have a system to administer or practice on. Most users study to use this information on their own local machine. I think you get my point. The very technology we use now could also be used (since it is open source) to take away or restrict these cherished freedoms and capabilities in the future--or, as Steve thinks, 5-10 years. Personally, I find this very ironic and hope it does not happen. |
| jdixon May 21, 2008 12:34 PM EDT |
> Third, you will store most everything on the network as everything is delivered over the cloud into a web browser. No local access to apps--at least, not yet. That will hopefully only happen when secure encrypted storage is available as an option. Too many people are already aware of the risks of trusting a business with their personal information, and the number is growing rapidly. It's far more likely that as flash memory reaches terabyte territory that you'll simply carry your data with you everywhere you go and have multiple copies in storage at convenient locations. |
| garymax May 21, 2008 12:49 PM EDT |
jdixon, Maybe so but all of the other issues that will be affected by cloud computing still remain. Why continue to study Linux if one day we'll have no system to maintain or administer? I do not believe that many Linux users have considered this in detail... |
| Steven_Rosenber May 21, 2008 1:47 PM EDT |
Amazon S3 is secure and encrypted. |
| jdixon May 21, 2008 2:11 PM EDT |
> Amazon S3 is secure and encrypted. Does Amazon have a copy of the keys? If so, then it's not secure. The keys have to be under your (and only your) control. I haven't looked into it, so I don't know. |
| DiBosco May 21, 2008 2:16 PM EDT |
Would the cloud issue not depend on people always having Internet access? Surely for the foreseeable future there will be many cases where you can't get on line? Plus, if you're compiling code for example I would have thought you'd want a local machine with decent power and control? Maybe I'm looking at it from an embedded hardware/software engineer's point of view which is tiny minority of users. |
| Sander_Marechal May 21, 2008 2:50 PM EDT |
DiBosco: No, you are right. The Cloud is going head-to-head with the mobile computing rage which dictates that often you only have a slow and expensive internet connection, if you have one at all. Things like Google Gears don't help here. It's just a fancy caching mechanish. You need real internet access for The Cloud, not some stale local cache. It's going to take years before mobile internet is fast enough, cheap enough and pervasive enough to allow cloud computing. I'd say at least two more generations after the latest UMTS. I'm talking about something like nation-wide coverage at 100 mbps for $20 a month flat-fee unlimited access. And even at 100 mbps you really don't want to move over large media files. Besides that, with the spread of open source, customization becomes ever more important. You can't customize The Cloud. Example: Lots of smaller companies moved (and are moving) from in-house finance applications to these newer webbased, hosted solutions. The company I work for did the same. But now we've grown and we wish to integrate that financial data with data from Sugar CRM or our reporting application. You can't do that in The Cloud. What once was a great way of getting the basic functionality without running our own stuff now comes biting back in lack of flexibility. Another example: I have quite a few useful plugins in Thunderbird. I can't install plugins when I use GMail. I loose flexibility. I think Linux is quite safe :-) |
| techiem2 May 21, 2008 3:00 PM EDT |
Right, and do you really want to access all of your media files/games/other large things over the internet? I just don't see that being very feasible without huge, reliable bandwidth. I can see how it would be good for some businesses, but I just don't see it working real well for home users or any place that moves lots of data around in-house. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 21, 2008 3:03 PM EDT |
I don't think we're going to lose the desktop, OS-driven computer as we know it. Look at the gPC. Whether the implementation is done well is one thing, but a desktop computer designed to work with Web-based services is something that will become more common in the near future. Remember, a small subset of us want to dig into the details, do things a certain way and have control over every aspect of security and storage. But most people just want to do their thing, and they're happy to let someone else sweat the details, since someone is better than no one. |
| garymax May 21, 2008 3:08 PM EDT |
>>I think Linux is quite safe :-) Let us hope so! Even with unfettered bandwidth the same issues are present: who controls your data, customization, system administration, etc. To me, it's not a matter of bandwidth; it's a matter of control--from the system to your data. The most we can hope for is for SAAS and cloud computing to live peacefully with other types of computing, not become a replacement for them. |
| dumper4311 May 21, 2008 3:29 PM EDT |
Ultimately I think Sander's hit it square. It's (for corporate and SOHO interests at least) a balancing act of ease of implementation and cost vs. flexibility and control. SAAS and cloud computing will make a big splash, and then people will come to grips with the downside, and find a happy medium. This is the same balancing act faced with in-house vs. outsourced IT, thin vs. thick clients, proprietary vs. open source software, and the list goes on. Individual users tend to be a bit less concerned with these issues, thus the long running dominance of MS. But even after spreading it's influence through homes, offices, and education for twenty odd years, the industry is slowly rebalancing itself. Overall I think the future looks pretty bright - if we're diligent about promoting the better options. |
| numbers May 21, 2008 3:49 PM EDT |
Having control over our own data is important.
Like Helios (Ken), we have to teach people that it is in their best interest to have that data independence. Many years of marketing have lulled them into believing that they can't handle it. On cloud vs. non-cloud, isn't just another cycle of what has happened in the past. I am a computer user, but I have read that, say 30 years ago (?), "computers" were mainframes with dumb terminals. Then along came personal computers. Big iron didn't get replaced by pc's. I even think big iron is making a bit of a comeback because of Linux. There are probably more applications for pc clusters (thanks to Linux) that are being used instead of big iron, to be cost effective. Probably some of the usual pundits paint the next big thing to be a cure all for every application. Could it be that cloud and non-cloud will co=exist - the best tool for the job - like Linux? just my 4 cents. |
| tracyanne May 21, 2008 4:00 PM EDT |
The cloud, is Suns Thin computing, is the mainframe, is centralised control by Corporation wanting make money from your data. It's unnecessary in almost all uses that home user put the computer to. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 21, 2008 4:12 PM EDT |
Right now almost all Cloud-based apps are used through the browser, but many of us use all kinds of apps that depend on the network for connectivity and data. I imagine that as things develop, there will be apps not just like Google Gears that assist the browser, but stand-alone apps on the desktop that automatically interact with resources within the cloud. And those apps could be, on the face of it, "traditional" apps that run in Linux, Windows or what have you. It'd be like Microsoft's initiative to share documents over the Internet. They keep the docs on their servers, you use MS Office to edit the documents either collaboratively or individually, and users have their same comfortable environment, except the data is in the Cloud. Of course this is a way for MS to preserve its software business, but OpenOffice could just as easily be coded to access data in the Cloud. |
| garymax May 21, 2008 4:29 PM EDT |
>>and users have their same comfortable environment, except the data is in the Cloud. If we are going to use local apps then why save data to the cloud when you can have full control--and possibly faster access--by accessing your own hard drive? I believe that an option to save data to the cloud would be good for collaboration and convenience (for accessing docs on the road) but, other than that, saving data to the cloud adds no benefit over saving locally to a hard drive--except as a backup. Plus, you know where your data is and can take measures to secure it when it's on your own hard drive. Somehow, and maybe I'm wrong here, I feel that the corporations who are really pushing cloud computing initiatives and SAAS see it as an "all or nothing" proposition. To succeed, these companies want you to trust them not only with your data but for your apps as well. Once they have both of these in their control (not yours) they can call all of the shots related to personal and corporate computing. Do we really want to cede control in this manner and of this magnitude to a few dozen companies? There is a lining to this cloud but it isn't silver... |
| ColonelPanik May 22, 2008 9:21 AM EDT |
It is OK to have your head in the clouds, but keep your feet on the ground! |
| vainrveenr May 22, 2008 11:42 AM EDT |
Quoting:Somehow, and maybe I'm wrong here, I feel that the corporations who are really pushing cloud computing initiatives and SAAS see it as an "all or nothing" proposition.Great points! Sort of comes down to what these cloud-computing corporations are _now_ claiming and touting for the benefits of cloud-computing -versus- what may or may not actually arise down the road in a few years. Some future considerations of cloud-computing which could be used for FUD purposes: -License plus legal/liability considerations whether effectively mandated, optional or a blend of the two - Benefits of future gotta-have-it "killer" cloud-computing applications or their key features - Real chances of adaptability, innovation, and performance increases or the lack thereof - Degree of security, theft, and privacy/ownership risk Probably some other key cloud-computing concerns left out of here as well. |
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