So what
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tracyanne Dec 02, 2008 8:29 AM EDT |
This is different from other companies funding the same marketing strategy in what way? Oh, that's right, it's Microsoft doing it. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 02, 2008 9:04 AM EDT |
Still, it's nice to have the proof out in the open. And to read such "classified" material and see/laugh at how many hoops MS makes OEMs jump. |
| phsolide Dec 02, 2008 9:20 AM EDT |
I agree with Sander Marechal: nice to have the documents out in the open. There's a couple of good reasons why: 1. It allows pointing at something indisputable in arguments. You may not convince the MSFT-addicts, but at least you'll make them gulp for air. The old "the market chose Microsoft" argument is almost certainly false. Consumers were *never* given a choice. 2. If you work at a large US corporation, some previously inscrutable policies make sense. Why did Giant Immoral Corp decide to let Windows servers on the network after resisting it for so many years!?! Oh, MSFT did a bribe in the form of advertising "partnerships" that's why. Now, if only we could find out who is in charge of the decision to use "PVCS"/Dimensions as the "corporate standard' version control system... |
| NoDough Dec 02, 2008 9:31 AM EDT |
First: I agree with TA. So what? We've known they were doing this for years, and it's certainly not unique to MS. Second: What "proof"? He posted documentation without sourcing information and claims it to be genuine. All of the links are (big surprise) self-referencing. Yes, MS runs a cooperative advertising campaign just like every other big company in the world. But this is just more BS from BN. I haven't taken their bait in months, now I do and it's just more of the same. When will I learn? |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 02, 2008 9:52 AM EDT |
Quoting:He posted documentation without sourcing information... Check the PDF he posted. That's an interesting read for sure... Quoting:Yes, MS runs a cooperative advertising campaign just like every other big company in the world. "XXX recommends YYY" is not a standard advertising slogan. That's an endorsement. MS (and their fanbois) have been pointing to these endorsements as proof that the market/OEMs want Vista. It's not about that *we* have known for years that this was going on. We can now tell Joe Public and the MS fanbois this by simply linking to that PDF. |
| dinotrac Dec 02, 2008 10:29 AM EDT |
***STOP THE PRESSES***
***SHOCKING NEW NEWS!!!!!*** Microsoft runs paid advertising campaigns, and pays stores to put it's advertising up. Nobody else would ever do that, right? I know that the advertising on the sides of city buses here in Chicago was put up only because the CTA really believes in those products and services, and not because there was no money involved. Ditto Michael Jordan's ads for Nike, Hanes, Gatorade and whatever else. I sure am glad Roy is out there digging this stuff up. Who'd a thunk it? |
| NoDough Dec 02, 2008 10:37 AM EDT |
Quoting:"XXX recommends YYY" is not a standard advertising slogan. That's an endorsement.Which there's nothing wrong with. If the business isn't comfortable making the endorsement, then they shouldn't sign the agreement. Quoting:MS (and their fanbois) have been pointing to these endorsements as proof that the market/OEMs want Vista.Of course, MS has no control over their fanbois. But if MS is using this as proof of market demand, then that is certainly circular reasoning. It's not illegal. However, it may be unethical. OTOH, maybe not (see above.) Personally, if I were MS, I would have trouble pointing to these endorsements as proof of demand. Especially considering the alternatives. [thought_bubble] Hmmm, Should I use these questionable endorsements as proof? Or should I use the hard fact that I sold XX million copies as proof? [/thought_bubble] BTW, has MS really used it as proof of demand, or was that merely rhetorical? |
| jdixon Dec 02, 2008 11:06 AM EDT |
> ...If the business isn't comfortable making the endorsement, then they shouldn't sign the agreement. Not quite. Allow me to rephrase that slightly. "... if the business isn't comfortable with the amount of money provided for making the endorsement, they shouldn't sign the agreement." Companies are doing this for the money, not necessarily because they think Windows is inherently a good product. That's an important distinction, and I think it's the core point Roy is trying to make. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 02, 2008 11:54 AM EDT |
Do you mean rhetorical from me or from Joe Public? The point I'm trying to make is that many consumers look at these recommendations as endorsements, not advertising slogans. I've tried googling for examples but I can't find anything decent on those keywords. All I get is those OEM sites :-) I have anecdotal evidence enough though. |
| tuxchick Dec 02, 2008 11:55 AM EDT |
Truth in advertising would require something like "Microsoft Has To Buy Its Friends." |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 02, 2008 11:59 AM EDT |
@jdixon: And therein lies again the monopoly problem. A mainstream OEM (face it, Linux only OEMs are a niche) cannot survive if they don't try to grab every penny of MS discount they can get. Margins are simply too thin in the OEM business at the moment. If you don't sign up and litter your ads with those endorsements then you pay more for Windows, your computers will be more expensive as a result and you loose out to the other OEM that did sign. There are only two ways out of this. One is to break the monopoly. Two is find a better OEM business model that gives you thick enough margins that you can forgo the discount and still be competitive. |
| Libervis Dec 02, 2008 12:12 PM EDT |
> “ recommends Windows” is an paid-for advert, not a recommendation Wow.. old news. Did anyone ever even think those weren't paid, seriously? In all honesty I don't really see anything wrong with it. The only thing wrong is that people try their best to avoid due diligence and think for themselves when making a choice of an OS. And for those who don't even know they have a choice.. well, that's where we come in, right? :) So.. this is just a soap opera. |
| NoDough Dec 02, 2008 12:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:Do you mean rhetorical from me or from Joe Public?I was referring to this: Quoting:MS (and their fanbois) have been pointing to these endorsements as proof that the market/OEMs want Vista. @Lib, well said. |
| dinotrac Dec 02, 2008 1:26 PM EDT |
Lib -- Couldn't agree more. Seriously, now --- Methinks people have been exposed to advertising long enough to carry grains of salt wherever they go. |
| vainrveenr Dec 02, 2008 4:34 PM EDT |
The BN Emperor wears much too few clothes. Regarding Schestowitz's actual proof within the piece: Quoting:What "proof"? He posted documentation without sourcing information and claims it to be genuine. All of the links are (big surprise) self-referencing.Yep. As of Dec 02, 2008 early PM PST, these are the sole references in the BN piece itself: 1. BN-specific self-referencing link on 'how Microsoft fakes recommendations and deceives the public' 2. BN-specific self-referencing link on '[Dell being] subjected to bad and exclusionary deals before' 3. MS's 'Cooperative Marketing Fund 'Investing in the Growth of Your Business' link 4. MS's Co-Op Partner Guidebook link 5. BN-specific PDF-download link to “Microsoft Confidential” document (what's the original source for this???) 6. BN-specific self-referencing link to the '“Effective Evangelism” document which was ‘leaked’ out of Microsoft' Indeed, an actual "So what" on references 3 and 4 here?! Overall, horrid proof within this and down there among the blogosphere's worst yellow journalism (reference to 'Yellow journalism' at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism) |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 02, 2008 5:29 PM EDT |
TC!!!!Quoting:Truth in advertising ... That's a classic oxymoron. Your buddy Txt. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 02, 2008 5:52 PM EDT |
Methinks you all spend too much time bashing Roy. I agree that most of the time his stories are too hyperbolic and poorly backed up by outside references*, but this time he actually has something interesting to show. *) I still find it a bit of a shame, since his stories on other websites are usually very well written. |
| Libervis Dec 02, 2008 8:03 PM EDT |
If I ran a web site like boycottnovell.com by now it'd probably feel like a burden.... so many people swarm around it that you just have to keep churning out that good old controversy and dare I say "hate" for MS/Novell to keep it interesting. What happens if Roy just sighs one day and says.. "bah, I'm done with this sh**".. On the other hand, considering how often he writes, he still seems to have plenty of energy left.. |
| tuxchick Dec 02, 2008 10:55 PM EDT |
The missing piece is the bit where participating vendors get penalized for mentioning Linux. It exists, and I sure would like to see it come to light. Must be something nasty to keep the likes of IBM, Dell, and HP on such short leashes. |
| jdixon Dec 02, 2008 11:16 PM EDT |
> It exists, Oh, I'm sure it does. As demonstrated by Dell's recent ads for the Mini-9, which mention Ubuntu, but nary a word about Linux. The question is, is it in writing or merely something everyone who deals with Microsoft knows? |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 03, 2008 2:48 AM EDT |
I don't think that's in any kind of coop agreement such as this. Look to the real OEM agreements for this. The one specific between each OEM and Microsoft. |
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