Translation
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| skelband Sep 07, 2011 1:01 PM EDT |
"We've seen what a big mess Ubuntu have made of Unity and Gnome of their desktop, and more importantly we saw the backlash, and we don't want any it. We also realise that a lot of people STILL have painful memories of the KDE 4 debacle." Seems to me that this guy is trying to head off any suspicion of KDE following the same route before the rumours even start. Or at least sending out signals to any in the KDE development gang that might have a desire to follow the herd so-to-speak. Which is kinda reassuring I guess.... |
| dinotrac Sep 07, 2011 3:00 PM EDT |
Well --- If actions match words, this could be a sign of much-needed maturity on the KDE team. I would love to see that because it looks like the code itself has come a long way, and I'd like to convince myself that it's safe to try out. |
| Grishnakh Sep 07, 2011 10:59 PM EDT |
Aaron Siego wrote:However, we do not believe in the "one interface that runs on both your desktop and your tablet". We believe in code reuse, in component-reuse (and, where beneficial, drop-in-replacement), compatibility and interoperability; but we also believe that a tablet interface and a desktop interface are not, and should not, be the same thing. The use cases and form factors are just too different. ... So those who are concerned that we're going to do something nasty to the desktop interface: breath easy. It's good to see him spelling this out so plainly like this, so people don't get the idea that they're going to go the way of Unity and Gnome3. It's smart for him to put this out there; maybe the KDE project can get a bunch of defectors and refugees from the others. I just wish they'd fix Amarok to make it as good as it was in the 3.5.10 days. |
| jezuch Sep 08, 2011 1:45 AM EDT |
Quoting:I just wish they'd fix Amarok to make it as good as it was in the 3.5.10 days. Have you heard of Clementine yet? :) |
| Fettoosh Sep 08, 2011 9:43 AM EDT |
Quoting:I would love to see that because it looks like the code itself has come a long way, and I'd like to convince myself that it's safe to try out. @Dino, From personal experience, you have the persuasiveness to convince others who are more stubborn, I doubt you will have a problem. :-) |
| jdixon Sep 08, 2011 10:18 AM EDT |
> ...you have the persuasiveness to convince others who are more stubborn... Yes, he does. But only when the evidence backs up his position. In this case, the evidence is still in doubt. :( We'll see. A simple, "Man, did we *beep* that up. We'll try to do better and not insult our loyal users in the process next time." would go a long way toward settling the matter. |
| dinotrac Sep 08, 2011 11:02 AM EDT |
@fettosh and @jdixon : Trust, once broken, is very hard to repair. Not impossible, but hard. There is a sound argument to be made that the KDE team may, at this point, be more trustworthy than most because thay have screwed up royally, been chastened, and have grown from the experience. The difficulty is confirming the growth. Time and actions have a way of doing that. |
| tracyanne Sep 08, 2011 7:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:Trust, once broken, is very hard to repair. It is indeed, I am however more inclined, now, to look seriously at KDE4 than I once was. Provided their actions match their words, I may actually consider going back there. |
| tracyanne Sep 10, 2011 11:40 PM EDT |
I have KDE4 (4.6.x) running in a VM on my laptop. I installed it by first installing Linux Mint 11 (GNOME) then installing KDE4. This is the first time I've actually managed to get KDE4 running properly on my rig in a long time. It has some nice stuff, and some horrible stuff. The horrible stuff... Dolphin, and Konqueror File managers, there really is something about Dolphin, and the Dolphinisation of Koqueror that I really hate with a passion. Thankfully I can still run nautilus, for a sane filemanager, that works as a filemanager and not some flashy toy. Konqueror appears incapable of rendering some aspects of at least one of the Websites I'm developing, but no loss, I never used Konqueror as a browser, and probably never will. The nice stuff, I do like the activities, and the ability to give each monitor a separate wallpaper background. I'm going to be spending quite a bit of time investigating the possibilities. Also really nice is the ability to change the desktop depending on the type of device... mind you I disagree that netbooks require a different desktop from full size notebooks, but being able to select a different desktop style especially for tablets or tablets with docking ports will be a huge boon to users |
| skelband Sep 10, 2011 11:54 PM EDT |
I never understood the need for dolphin. I always preferred Konqueror when I used KDE I found Dolphin awful and pointless. |
| tracyanne Sep 11, 2011 12:08 AM EDT |
Konqueror is just as awful and pointless, as it appears to be Dolphin with a few extra bits and peices, but it is now essentially the same. |
| skelband Sep 12, 2011 12:49 PM EDT |
@traceyanne: My perspective of Dolphin and Konqueror is from late 3.5 just before the switch to KDE 4 (about when I jumped ship). I actually quite liked Konqueror and I didn't really understand at the time why they thought they needed to switch to Dolphin. Perhaps it was architecturally better but it seemed to me that it was a much cut-down version of the same thing and didn't look or feel as good. |
| dinotrac Sep 12, 2011 5:41 PM EDT |
@skelband -- I loved Konqueror when it first came out (such a BIG improvement over the oroginal KDE browser) and it remained my front-line browser for much of my KDE lifetime, even though it was seriously falling down on the job near the end. I'd seriously hoped that Apple's use of KHTML as the basis for Webkit would result in some nice changes finding their way back into Konqueror, but, alas, not so much. The HTML rendering wasn't that bad, but javascript was terrible, and it's hard to really do the web these days without good javascript handling. |
| tracyanne Sep 12, 2011 5:46 PM EDT |
Konqueror on KDE3.5.10 was, and still is, a much better filemanager than konqueror on KDE4. I have seen KDE4 appologists claim that konqueror od significantly different from Dolphin, but I cannot for the life of me see any significant differences. To be fair they are probably both very good filemanagers, with all the bits an pieces one currently expects from a mocern filemanager. I just can't get past the useless auto resizing of icons that occurs when one increases or decreases the size of a panel. It is so pointless and I find it so annoying that I cannot use the damn things. When I resize the panel I don't want bigger or smaller icons I want a bigger or smaller panel area. Thankfully I can use nautilus, which is a sane filemanager that actually does what I want. T that end I've made it my default filemanger using the KDE4 system settings functionality. It appears, on the other hand that, most, if not all, of the functionality that was available to me in KDE3.5.10 is now available in KDE4.6.x. |
| Fettoosh Sep 12, 2011 6:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'd seriously hoped that Apple's use of KHTML as the basis for Webkit would result @Dino, Have you looked at Rekonq? It is the KDE Webkit based browser and a rewrite of Konqueror, which I believe will eventually be using V8 Javascript engine when will be supported by Qt 5 when Html interface support is added. Sorry, I don't have the link at this moment. |
| dinotrac Sep 12, 2011 6:09 PM EDT |
@fettoosh -- No, I haven't. About the only KDE tools I've used since moving to Xfce are digikam and k3b. Maybe I'll give it a whirl when I've got a little spare time. Firefox is not doing me any favors lately. OTOH, I am slowly warming up to Opera. |
| Fettoosh Sep 12, 2011 7:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:Maybe I'll give it a whirl I am not saying it is great and it is not my favorite either, but I did test it few times and it does look like it has potential. I believe it will be as good as chrome without the snooping. |
| skelband Sep 12, 2011 7:52 PM EDT |
While we're at it, am I the only one who mourned the loss of Kooka? Even when I was using a Gnome-based distribution, I preferred Kooka for my batch scanning. I never ever bought into the "you can do you scanning in your editor of choice" argument. For dedicated scanning jobs, (like I used to use it for batch scanning of old photographs) it took some beating compared to whatever else was out there, which wasn't much. |
| mbaehrlxer Sep 12, 2011 9:41 PM EDT |
skelband: it seems kooka is not entirely dead: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Kooka http://quickgit.kde.org/?p=kooka.git&a=log greetings, eMBee. |
| tracyanne Sep 17, 2011 4:07 AM EDT |
Some good news, and some bad. I have discovered that I can turn konqueror into a decent File Manager, and make it my default, so now I don't have to use Nautilus. I can even permanently remove the horrible Dolphinesque Places button from the view profile. The bad news is that the moment I select "Open File" from any application you get Dolphin, complete with it's annoying "Places" panel, as the File Dialogue widget. If only I could find a way to replace Dolphin completely. |
| DiBosco Sep 17, 2011 6:42 AM EDT |
I really didn't like Dolphin when it first appeared, but have grown to prefer it to konqueror. The one thing I'd like to see added to it is to be able to split an already split screen. Other than that, it's fabulous. As far as "useless" resizing of icons, I hadn't even noticed it! It might not add any functionality for you, but surely it doesn't distract you? If you think Dolphin is bad, just console yourself it's not as bad as that piece of total ****, Windows explorer. ;~) |
| tracyanne Sep 17, 2011 6:55 AM EDT |
Personaly I find Windows explorer way less distracting to use. But then I use the classic Windows 98 style of UI on Windows. |
| tuxchick Sep 17, 2011 11:36 AM EDT |
I don't care for icons jumping all over the place either. It's pointless, and it's like they're trying to induce a seizure. I adored Konqueror as a file manager in KDE3. I had it all customized and tuned and it was lightning fast for everything I needed to do. I'm giving KDE4 a good lengthy test drive so I suppose I ought to see what Konqueror looks like now. |
| Fettoosh Sep 17, 2011 12:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:The bad news is that the moment I select "Open File" from any application you get Dolphin, complete with it's annoying "Places" panel, as the File Dialogue widget. If only I could find a way to replace Dolphin completely. If using KDE 4, you can. Menu => Settings => System Settings In "Workspace Appearance and Behavior" section, select "Default Applications" =>"File Manager", the right second pane will display four options. It will even allow you to add new ones. Systems Settings should have everything that you ever need to configure KDE 4. Quoting:The one thing I'd like to see added to it is to be able to split an already split screen. I miss that too especially when using it in browser mode. Nice way to compare documents or web pages. Dolphin is not supposed to be a Web Browser any more and Rekonq is. KDE team realized that Konqueror was getting too big, complicated, difficult to support, and will get even more complex after they add the additional planned integration of PIMS and semantic desktop features. One thing you can do is use multiple columns. Not the same or as good but it helps. You also could use separate windows and use tiling for comparison purposes. |
| Fettoosh Sep 17, 2011 2:09 PM EDT |
@TA, If you are interested, the link below provides some nice documentation for Dolphin. http://userbase.kde.org/Dolphin/File_Management#Navigation_B... |
| tracyanne Sep 17, 2011 6:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:In "Workspace Appearance and Behavior" section, select "Default Applications" =>"File Manager", the right second pane will display four options. It will even allow you to add new ones. Thanks Fettoosh, I've already been there, done that. That was how I made Nautilus the default, before I made Konqueror the default. That, however, does not change the what happens when you click on a File Open or File Save or File Save As. The dialogue that opens is Dolphin, complete with annoying places panel. |
| tracyanne Sep 17, 2011 6:32 PM EDT |
Quoting:If you are interested, the link below provides some nice documentation for Dolphin. There's nothing there that explains how to turn off the annoying resize icons action that occurs when you resize the places panel. In fact there is no idication that that this "feature" exists. Nor is there any indication that there is a way to replace dolphin with something else for the File Open/Save dialogue. Pity. |
| Fettoosh Sep 19, 2011 5:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:There's nothing there that explains how to turn off the annoying resize icons... And I haven't seen one either. I agree, such automation servers no good purpose other than the developer felt it is a neat and clever thing to show off. In previous versions, users had the option to change the icon size, which I no longer see as an option and should have been kept. |
| tracyanne Sep 19, 2011 9:20 PM EDT |
I am, in spite of the petty annoyances, really liking this version of KDE4, it's much closer to what I imagined KDE would be, based on the original descriptions, There is even a fair to middling chance that I will return to KDE, especially if the Mint folks can't do anything to fix the Gnome desktop. |
| skelband Sep 20, 2011 12:23 PM EDT |
I downloaded a Kubuntu live image last night and tried it out. It certainly does look rather smooth and very pretty. It was not using a proprietary video driver but still looked very smooth with interesting transparency effects. However, I see what you mean :ta about the resizing icons in the LHS of the explorer. I would much rather it didn't do that. It looks visually irritating and is certainly not what I expected which breaks the first rule of UI design. I didn't run it for very long so I don't really have any more comments than that at the moment. If anybody is interested, I could write something up once I have looked at it more carefully. I'm kinda looking ahead a bit for what I will use in the future since Unity and Gnome 3 are out of the equation for me. |
| Grishnakh Oct 02, 2011 3:30 AM EDT |
tracyanne wrote:I just can't get past the useless auto resizing of icons that occurs when one increases or decreases the size of a panel. It is so pointless and I find it so annoying that I cannot use the damn things. When I resize the panel I don't want bigger or smaller icons I want a bigger or smaller panel area. I just tried this out, and honestly I don't really see the problem, so I don't know if I'm missing something. I only see the auto-resizing on the "Places" panel. What it seems to be doing is resizing the icons to fit the available area. So if my Dolphin window is vertically maximized and I widen the Places panel, the icons get bigger until they're at their maximum size. But if I shrink dolphin vertically, then widening has no effect because the space is already filled. It avoids putting a scroll bar this way, until it's forced to with the icons at the smallest size. I don't see this with any other panel, or in the main window, just the Places panel. In the main window, there's a control at the bottom-right to adjust icon size manually. This is all on Linux Mint, whatever the latest non-beta KDE version is. |
| patrokov Oct 02, 2011 9:37 PM EDT |
tracyanne, I don't think you're getting "dolphin" in the open/save dialog. That's just the KDE dialog (although it does share the places sidebar with Dolphin and probably common code). IMO, it's 1000x better than the useless GTK open/save dialog. If I could find a way to replace Firefox/Thunderbird's GTK save dialog with KDE's, I'd do so in a heart beat. Also, the places sidebar is fabulously useful if you just add some useful "places" to it. For example, mine has direct links to work files, ftp to my website, fish to my server, movies directory, my son's photos, podcasts, etc. I tremendously miss the endless ability to split Konqueror windows. The "columns" feature is an abomination and completely counterintuitive. |
| tracyanne Oct 03, 2011 1:16 AM EDT |
@patrakov, the fact that the places side bar does things I neither want nor like is enough that I will never use it by choice. So whatever else it can do is moot, I avoid it like the plague. A long time ago I went to the troubleof filing a bug report about it. I'm still waiting, fot it to be fixed. |
| tracyanne Oct 03, 2011 4:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:Also, the places sidebar is fabulously useful if you just add some useful "places" to it. I can do that in konqueror without the places side bar (which I remove from Konqueror), you always could. Dolphin is unnecessary, it seemsmore like an ego thing for the developer that wrote it. I find it incredibly annoying that the icos resize to fill the available space, it's annoying and unnecessary especially as I don't get the choice, and I didn't/don't resize it to get bigger icons.. I don't want bigger icons I want more space. |
| skelband Oct 03, 2011 12:13 PM EDT |
@ta: I agree about the resizing icons. Usually, you resize something to get more space, but they grow to fill the space. It just feels incredibly annoying. Would it be SO hard for them to add a setting to switch the behaviour off? |
| Fettoosh Oct 03, 2011 6:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:Dolphin is unnecessary, It might be unnecessary to you, but necessary for many others. Besides, I believe it will become more obvious how necessary Dolphin is when the planned integration of PIM & Symantec desktop indexing & search are added to it. Like I said before, I agree the automatic sizing of the icons is unnecessary, but that doesn't make Dolphin useless to everyone. There are many other features that make Dolphin an important tool. |
| patrokov Oct 03, 2011 9:28 PM EDT |
tracyanne, hmm, it seems that you can close the places bar in the dialogs but it comes right back the next time. That is annoying if one wanted it off. The old KDE konqueror had a sidebar with several different selectable panels, one of which (if memory serves through mist) was very similar to places. I'm not trying to be difficult, but what exactly is it that you hate about having a place panel (I already gather the silly resizing issue and not turning off)? I mean do you hate the GTK places bar to the same degree in Firefox? |
| tracyanne Oct 03, 2011 9:48 PM EDT |
@patrokov, in case you have not already read what I wrote earlier. "... I find it incredibly annoying that the icos resize to fill the available space, it's annoying and unnecessary especially as I don't get the choice, and I didn't/don't resize it to get bigger icons.. I don't want bigger icons I want more space... " |
| skelband Oct 04, 2011 12:36 PM EDT |
Actually trying out KDE, I had a bit of a Windows XP moment. One of the the first things I did, after trying out the menu and discovering the same awful in-place-type menu thingy that I have on Windows 2008 server, was to switch to "Classic" mode. I'm not an old stick-in-the-mud, I just prefer whatever is easier. For example, the new menu organisation of Windows 2008 Server is really unforgiving if you make a mistake when navigating around it with a mouse. It almost punishes pointer mistakes. All these new-fangled (crikey, I sound like an old man) application launcher designs seem like people scratching around for a different way of doing something that works really quite well as it is. |
| Fettoosh Oct 04, 2011 2:58 PM EDT |
Quoting:One of the the first things I did, ... I do the same. I still find classic hierarchical menus to be most effective and practical. Lancelot does a much better job at combining the classical features with the new style menus. One of the nice things about KDE plasma is it accommodates for multiple menus and allows placing Lancelot menu as a widget either in the panel or any place on the desktop. |
| patrokov Oct 04, 2011 10:10 PM EDT |
@tracyanne, and in case you didn't read what I already wrote, "I already gather the silly resizing issue" But is that really the ONLY source of your venom? ridicule? certainly, but it's seems that you hate it. I mean, how often do you resize the place menu? Is it because Dolphin doesn't remember your settings? Now THAT would seem much more annoying. [Edit: AHA moment]: Is it that you wanted to see the full name of the folder, but the only way to do that is to get larger icons AND text? |
| tracyanne Oct 04, 2011 11:47 PM EDT |
yep |
| dinotrac Oct 05, 2011 6:46 AM EDT |
Wow. Just one more day and this thread will have been running for a full month. At least it's not about something trivial like war, peace, poverty, or curing cancer. |
| tracyanne Oct 05, 2011 7:15 AM EDT |
@dino, we don't have time for such trivia. |
| dinotrac Oct 05, 2011 9:29 AM EDT |
@ta And a good thing it is, too. Besides, beauty contest entrants are already hard at work on those issues. |
| skelband Oct 05, 2011 1:07 PM EDT |
@patrokov: "But is that really the ONLY source of your venom?" A single very annoying behaviour can foul your experience of a whole product, if it is something that you encounter regularly during the course of your work. Really, this particular issue breaks one of the most fundamental rules of UI design, that it should never surprise you, that it should do exactly what you anticipate. The side bar should behave exactly the same as the main window, because that is what one would expect. My perception of what I would expect is the behaviour that we see in Nautilus, KDE 3.5, Mac OSX and Windows Explorer for the side bar, that its width would be fixed (by the user) and scroll bars should appear when there is not enough space vertically. It is no coincidence that so many different UI implementations do it this way. It just feels right. |
| tracyanne Oct 05, 2011 5:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:A single very annoying behaviour can foul your experience of a whole product, if it is something that you encounter regularly during the course of your work. And I do. I use a file manager application a lot. I don't, when a using KDE desktop, use the plasmoids, for the same reason I don't use desktop icons. I don't like having to clear, or partially clear my desktop, in order to access something that always only available on the desktop, as a consequence I don't have file view plasmoids. I simply find a full blown application, such as a file manager more useful. As a consequence I find the behaviour of the places panel annoying, so I don't use Dolphin, and I remove the places panel from Konqueror. Other than that my experience of KDE4 (4.6) has been pretty good. One small annoyance has been that on my netbook, I can't find a Network Connection Manager, when using the KDE Desktop. So if I suspend the machine from the KDE desktop, I can't reestablish a wireless connection when I unsuspend, and have to either go back to GNOME or reboot. That more than the places panel is stopping me from using KDE full time. |
| BernardSwiss Oct 05, 2011 5:57 PM EDT |
Those "trivial" things, namely war, peace and poverty, (you forgot to mention economics) serve to provide daily examples of the Peter Principle in action. At least in the fields of FOSS and Linux, most people are (perhaps only somewhat, but nonetheless significantly) more cognisant of the limits to their competence and expertise. (As for curing cancer -- those guys are doing about as well as (or better than) can be expected.) |
| Fettoosh Oct 05, 2011 7:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:I can't find a Network Connection Manager, when using the KDE Desktop. So if I suspend the machine from the KDE desktop, I can't reestablish a wireless connection when I unsuspend, and have to either go back to GNOME or reboot. I am running Kubuntu with KDE 4.7.1 and don't have this problem. I have no idea what is causing this issue for your, but I believe KDE 4.7.1 has a newer version of KNetworkManager among many other enhancements and bug fixes that made it more reliable and robust than 4.6. I would give it a try. |
| patrokov Oct 05, 2011 9:18 PM EDT |
>> I can't find a Network Connection Manager, when using the KDE Desktop. So if I suspend the machine from the KDE desktop, I can't reestablish a wireless connection when I unsuspend, and have to either go back to GNOME or reboot. In PCLinuxOS, there's an applet called "Network Center" in the system tray that manages wireless (and wired networks). How do you quote in HTML? I just have a blank text box with no formatting assistance/direction. |
| gus3 Oct 05, 2011 9:37 PM EDT |
@patrokov, on this site, use (quote) and (/quote), but change the parentheses to square brackets. |
| Fettoosh Oct 05, 2011 9:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:How do you quote in HTML? You mean here on Lxer? Just put the text you want to quote between opening and closing tags like [ quote] some text [ /quote] without the blanks I inserted after each [ to prevent quoting. |
| mbaehrlxer Oct 06, 2011 11:21 AM EDT |
another hint: if you go to preview then the help appears.
so write text, hit preview, check the help to use the tags (bbcodes), then send. greetings, eMBee. |
| patrokov Oct 06, 2011 8:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:another hint: if you go to preview then the help appears. so write text, hit preview, check the help to use the tags (bbcodes), then send. so helpful. I thought I had somehow turned formatted posts off in my profile but couldn't find the option. |
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