Idle speculation
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| montezuma Feb 09, 2012 9:45 PM EDT |
To say that because so many different desktops are being developed that compatibility issues will occur is just bunk. I can run a whole bunch of desktops in Ubuntu with no compatibility issues whatsoever. XFCE, Cinnamon, Gnome Classic, Gnome Shell, MATE, KDE all happily coexist on my system. Frankly I think the fragmentation at present is healthy and will lead eventually to better desktop paradigms just like a plethora of species leads to evolution and more successful species. For example, I can already see cinnamon picking up momentum as users very rapidly contribute themes, applets and extensions. And the project is only 2 months old. |
| Khamul Feb 09, 2012 10:14 PM EDT |
You might like having a dozen different DEs on your system to choose from, but to outsiders, this just looks like complete chaos, and dissuades them from looking at Linux as an alternative to Win/Mac. Did we learn nothing from the fragmentation of UNIX back in the 80s/90s? Worse, when they do look at Linux, they'll look at the most prominent distros, which are Ubuntu and Fedora; then they'll try out those abominable DEs (Unity and Gnome3 Shell), conclude that desktop Linux is a bad joke, and go right back to Win/Mac. |
| Fettoosh Feb 09, 2012 10:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:You might like having a dozen different DEs on your system to choose from, but to outsiders, this just looks like complete chaos... One thing I don't understand in you argument, why would one user care what desktop is being used by another? Is there a good valid reason? There are many cars with different styles and models, and no one really cares and each buys the one they like. Why can't be the same with desktops? |
| DrGeoffrey Feb 09, 2012 11:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:Why can't be the same with desktops? FWIW, I think it is the same. After all, one does not drive two cars at once, neither does one run two DEs. Now it may be true that users are not accustomed to a choice, but they learned to accept vehicles that were not black, automatic transmissions, DVD players, etc. Of course, the game in DEs is largely fixed, limiting the availability of choice to those who intentionally seek alternatives. (Why does this discussion sound familiar?) |
| montezuma Feb 09, 2012 11:16 PM EDT |
Khamul, Disagree. Choice is the great virtue of Linux. Don't like choice then use a Mac. I won't complain. My wife does. Part of the reason for fragmentation at present is that the developers of gnome were taking choice away because it was becoming harder and harder to configure things as you wanted. I suspect that in a year or so this will all settle down into 2-3 main gnome choices once configurabilty is restored. |
| JaseP Feb 09, 2012 11:20 PM EDT |
I've gotta agree with Fettoosh here...Desktop configuration is a matter of choice, and what better choice is there than what exists in Linux. It wasn't a barrier for me to switch, or any other Linux user I know... And sorry, DrGeoffrey,... While one can't drive two cars at the same time, a family rarely has two of the same car. And, most family members have no problems with switching which car they drive. Bad analogy. I switch from Android to Linux to (the company's) Windoze machines. I do so, hour by hour, minute by minute... No problems. |
| Khamul Feb 10, 2012 12:27 AM EDT |
The biggest problem is Gnome3 and Unity. When a new user checks out Linux, they are absolutely not going to try out KDE, Xfce, LXDE, Enlightenment, Gnome3 Shell, Classic Gnome, Unity, Cinnamon, and MATE, and then make a decision after giving them all a fair shot. They're going to try one distro, just one, and they're going to pick what's most popular-looking. If whatever DE that distro defaults to turns them off, they're back to Win/Mac, and the cause for greater Linux marketshare is set back yet again, and instead it takes yet another step towards being just as relevant as OpenBSD or ReactOS or Minix, with the same level of support from manufacturers. |
| r_a_trip Feb 10, 2012 6:34 AM EDT |
They're going to try one distro, just one, and they're going to pick what's most popular-looking. which currently is Linux Mint, according to Distrowatch. For now they will be greeted by Linux Mint 12, with Gnome Shell + MGSE. It's not perfect, but it's a whole lot better than "pure" Shell or Unity. In the future it will be Linux Mint 13 with Cinnamon as the default desktop. Cinnamon is really shaping up to be a nice, productive and still sexy looking desktop. Problem solved. |
| Khamul Feb 10, 2012 6:51 AM EDT |
@r_a_trip: Distrowatch's stats are bogus; they get their stats from the people who visit their site. How many newbie users are going to be hanging out at Distrowatch? Probably about as many as hang out here on LXer. Yes, lots of experienced Linux users are jumping ship to Mint, but that doesn't mean newbies are going to try it out first (unless of course they follow a friend's recommendation). |
| tracyanne Feb 10, 2012 7:37 AM EDT |
@Khamul, so when distrowatch stats said Ubuntu was the most popular Linux distro, those were bogus stats? |
| Khamul Feb 10, 2012 8:40 AM EDT |
@tracyanne: Maybe, maybe not. They're looking at one subset of the computing population, namely people who go to Distrowatch.com. You're not going to find out accurately 1) what the actual usage and marketshare of various distros is, or 2) what distro(s) non-Linux users consider "most popular" and would try out if they decided to give Linux a whirl, by looking at the stats on that site. Admittedly, #2 isn't going to be correct either (how do non-Linux or newbie users make the determination what is most popular? probably a Google search, or asking Linux-using friends or cow-orkers), but I don't think that these newbies probably are going to go to Distrowatch to figure out which distro to try out. It's kinda like looking at the website stats from kernel.org and expecting that to be reflective of the market share of various Linux distros; it won't work. You'll just find the marketshare of users who go to kernel.org, who are probably going to be mostly kernel hackers and the like, not casual users. Finally, any website stats looking for Linux users may very well be flawed because of certain number of people forging their user agents on their browsers (thanks to stupid sites that won't work if you don't). |
| pmpatrick Feb 10, 2012 11:38 AM EDT |
I refuse to get worked up about things I have no control over. I don't care for Unity or Gnome3 but I'm not deluded enough to think that my postings on a forum will cause their devs to see the light and shut down their projects. There's plenty out there I do like; I'm grateful for the available choice; and I choose what I like, not worrying about others choices. I also can confidently predict that the 2% of users running a linux desktop OS will continue to do so regardless of the number of DEs/window mangers developed. Fragmentation is not the problem with regard to desktop linux adoption and wringing your hands over the number of linux desktops being developed and potential fragmentation will have zero impact on those developing those desktops. |
| gus3 Feb 10, 2012 1:25 PM EDT |
I refuse to get worked up over distros that aren't the best (i.e. Slackware). /me ducks and runs |
| jdixon Feb 10, 2012 5:01 PM EDT |
> I refuse to get worked up over distros that aren't the best (i.e. Slackware). I can second that. :) Though this is being posted from my Ubuntu 10.04 netbook. |
| montezuma Feb 10, 2012 7:02 PM EDT |
You two sound like Bob Dobbs the world's greatest salesman. Personally Sadofuturistics doesn't do it for me. |
| gus3 Feb 10, 2012 7:05 PM EDT |
But Slackware isn't futuristic. It's retro! |
| montezuma Feb 10, 2012 7:54 PM EDT |
Whoa gus are you really Church of Subgenius material? "Slack-filled young men and women of Yeti descent who are spread, SEEMINGLY randomly, throughout the breakthinking world... but are bent on breaching all Earthly human political and cultural barriers with the searing nonhuman truth of the Word of "Bob": J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, that LIVING GOD WHO WALKS THIS PLANET EARTH IN HUCKSTER'S SHOES." http://www.subgenius.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius#Slack |
| tracyanne Feb 10, 2012 9:25 PM EDT |
Quoting: Khamul: @r_a_trip: Distrowatch's stats are bogus;.............. Well either are, or they are not, and if they are bogus for Linux Mint, then they mst be for Ubuntu. |
| DrGeoffrey Feb 10, 2012 9:33 PM EDT |
Whoa! The Church of the Subgenius sounds like something I could really get into. . . But to join it would violate one of Groucho's maxims that I've adopted as my own: "I don't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member!" |
| montezuma Feb 10, 2012 9:53 PM EDT |
So DrGeoffrey I take it you did not attend their recent Shanghai function SubGenius WORLD DESTRUCTION EVENT Sponsored by Rev. Shining Path of Least Resistance http://www.shanghaistuff.com/events/subgenius-endoftheworldd... That Reverend sounds ideal for Slackers! |
| Khamul Feb 11, 2012 3:57 PM EDT |
@tracyanne: The stats on that site won't ever accurately reflect reality for ALL users of Linux. Back when Ubuntu was #1 there, it may have also been the most popular Linux distro overall, but that isn't evidence of Distrowatch's stats being accurate, (if it's true) it's just evidence that at that time, Distrowatch's users happened to also prefer the same distro as Linux users in general. I guess I need a car analogy here since this seems to be a difficult concept for some. Race car drivers generally prefer cars that are low to the ground and have excellent handling. There's a subset of general car drivers who also prefer cars with these characteristics (you can see them driving around in modified cars). This subset of general car drivers (frequently teenagers or 20-something single men) are NOT all professional racecar drivers (in fact, almost none of them are). Just because two groups of people like the same thing doesn't mean they're the same group of people, though there may be a small amount of overlap in those sets. Furthermore, race car drivers prefer cars with steering wheels. It appears that general car drivers also prefer cars with steering wheels (though no one has ever done a comprehensive survey to confirm this, however, cars with tillers were on the market a while ago but they failed in the marketplace and no one makes them any more). So does that mean all the preferences race car drivers have are also identical to the preferences of all other car drivers? Do we need to get into set theory here? Finally, there's more to Distrowatch's stats (or any similar stats) then who's #1. The #2, 3, 4, etc. places are all important too, in decreasing amount of course. Distrowatch's #1 spot may be the same, at a point in time, as the actual #1 most popular distro overall (which, again, we can never know as there's no way of reliably collecting that information short of having the US Census department collect it door-to-door, and that would only be good for the US anyway), but that doesn't mean that its #2, 3, etc. spots will also match up. Aren't you a mod here or something? Why don't you post up the stats of this website? See how they compare to Distrowatch. What are you going to do when they don't exactly match? |
| tracyanne Feb 11, 2012 9:21 PM EDT |
@ Khamul, thanks for the clarification, you intially appeared to be saying something quite different. |
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