Whimsical perhaps.....
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Apr 09, 2012 3:41 AM EDT |
..But I am so pleased, so very, very pleased SUSE has returned to Europe. I had enormous respect for the German software engineers who developed the original SuSE, and I get the feeling I can once more relax and expect superb and solid engineering in this distribution. Just me I guess....but that's my perceptions. |
| helios Apr 09, 2012 9:25 PM EDT |
Yeah, I am looking hard at Suse again for my personal PC. I've been in the Debian/Mint/Ubuntu way of doing things for so long now it might take me a bit to get back into it but as far as long-term stability goes, I'm thinkin' Suse might be it. |
| Ridcully Apr 09, 2012 9:40 PM EDT |
Hi Helios......I obtain excellent stability. But remember I have a very simple setup.....just a personal laptop attached to a VoIP broadband router.....no networking at this end at all. I cannot recall a system crash. On very, very rare occasions, I have managed to freeze the screen in KDE4, but that was because of ruddy Win-based software running in Crossover Office - the underlying OS was quite intact. One of the reasons I like SUSE is because it has been my OS for 10 years so I am very familiar with all its quirks and I happen to prefer KDE - and SUSE has one of the best integrations of that DE.....if something runs properly, why go elsewhere ? My only mild criticism is that like a number of distros, SUSE does not come with the codecs that you need to play dvd's including libdvdcss....but that's easily remedied. Oh yes, and its version of K3b is partially crippled for the same copyright reason....so you dump that and load the version supplied elsewhere. Happy to answer any queries - as long as they don't involve networks. |
| gus3 Apr 09, 2012 10:18 PM EDT |
@helios, not to spark a flamewar or anything, but have you considered Slackware? (Not -current, but the stable release, 13.37 as of now.) |
| kenholmz Apr 09, 2012 10:39 PM EDT |
I have not ceased using suse/opensuse since I first installed version 8.2. I am currently using version 11.4 and will for a while to come as I am not ready to deal with the latest KDE or Gnome or switch to one of the lighter desktops (although I know I will). I switched to Gnome a couple of versions back and have been pleased with it. Like, Ridcully, I would like opensuse (I have given up on the spelling case) to come with the codecs and a complete K3b. However, most of it is easily remedied. If you go into Yast and Software Repositories, you can add a number of Community Repositories with a click. This includes one specifically for libdvdcss as well as Packman and a host of others. Still, it can take a bit longer sometimes, but I have never regretted the result. It has remained stable and a pleasure to use. I hope the hardware and software affiliations bode well for the distribution. @Gus3, I haven't installed Slackware in quite a while. You influence me to do this soon (on a different computer than my opensuse machine). |
| Ridcully Apr 10, 2012 12:23 AM EDT |
Hi Gus3........that's not starting a "flame war", that's a personal opinion of a very, very, very good distro and a well respected opinion. {We can always have a "rough and tumble" about something else if you really want to brawl though. :-) } Although I have never felt impelled to trial it, I have always held an extremely high opinion of Slackware because I have had years of reading complimentary articles and posts about Slackware. I'd like a question answered if you care to do so: Would you say Slackware is simple to run, or simpler than openSUSE ? It's not something I think Helios would be concerned over, but I possibly might be, as I have the vague idea Slackware is a little less "friendly" than openSUSE. Be very interested in your comments on that one. |
| jdixon Apr 10, 2012 8:51 AM EDT |
Well, as a long time Slackware user, allow me to interject my $.02. :) > Would you say Slackware is simple to run, or simpler than openSUSE ? Once configured, I'd say yes. Initial configuration is probably more difficult. > ...as I have the vague idea Slackware is a little less "friendly" than openSUSE. Well, Slackware has no real equivalent to Yast, or whatever it is SuSE is using now. That makes installing updates and non-included software a more manual process. Fortunately for you, KDE 4 is included. This can largely be resolved by using the included slackpkg for updates and sbopkg for Slackbuilds.org supplied software. You can also install slapt-get and it's associated pacakges (slapt-get, gslapt, slapt-update-service, and slapt-src) and use them. Or you can download and install the updates yourself and build Slackbuilds packages manually, your call. If you want any Gnome packages, you'll probably want to look at Gnome Slackbuild, which is a full Gnome system for Slackware. It tends to lag the actually distribution by a few months, but it now has a version of Gnome 3.2 for Slackware 13.37. |
| dinotrac Apr 10, 2012 9:04 AM EDT |
Ah, Yast. Fond memories. I used SuSE for years, starting from the time when the Debian crews hosed up KDE over the QT licensing stuff. Started using Ubuntu because it had a special distro for Myth TV (I actually use Mythuntu on my myth box and on my workstation -- XFCE, not Unity crap), but... Going back to the gecko doesn't sound bad at all, save for inertia. |
| gus3 Apr 10, 2012 9:41 AM EDT |
Slackware's foundation is inspired more by BSD than by SysV, so its service management system is a bit bare-bones by comparison. For many years, the services were started and stopped totally in /etc/rc.d/rc.M, but most services are now in their own scripts; enabling/disabling them on startup is simply a matter of setting the exec bit on the appropriate script. But the un-patched nature of Slackware is probably the biggest draw for me. PatV avoids gratuitous patching. If it doesn't build, he won't put it in. There have been a few exceptions to this over the years, but he tries to keep them on an "as-needed" basis. (See also tuxchick's "comments" about disabling Nouveau.) Even Gentoo and LFS, supposedly "source-based", has a lot more build-time infrastructure than Slackware The upside to that is, if I want something that isn't in stock Slackware, and I don't find it in SlackBuilds.org, I'm still free to [try to] build it on the command line. Sometimes, I do need to pound and patch and tweak... but not often. Of course, I've been running Slackware long enough, that my installation has just about everything I want. It's just a matter of keeping things updated, which is why I keep the ChangeLogs bookmarked. |
| Fettoosh Apr 10, 2012 11:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:That makes installing updates and non-included software a more manual process. Quoting:so its service management system is a bit bare-bones by comparison. @Ridcully, it seems Slackware needs some work to get it going. I believe it is not for people like you and me who want a distro that just works. I too used Suse for long time but I have been running Kubuntu for a while now. Kubuntu gets lots of undeserving bad raps, but in my experience, I find it to be the best distro overall and has pretty good KDE support. I like Kubuntu better because it is Debian based and consequently has Apt-get/Aptitude package management tools. I wonder if you have given it a try? I believe you are right about the good implementation of KDE. That is due to the fact that many of the KDE developers continue to use it. Traditionally, Suse has been a big supporter of the KDE team and continue to be even after Suse was purchased by Novell. And now it is back in Germany, I expect that support is going to be stronger. |
| gus3 Apr 10, 2012 12:21 PM EDT |
Fettoosh wrote:it seems Slackware needs some work to get it going. I believe it is not for people like you and me who want a distro that just works.As a server, Slackware has always "just worked." As I've read elsewhere (maybe caitlyn said it), Slackware is "a great system for building what you need," and it's well-suited to building dedicated servers. And, let's face it, if you're building a dedicated *nix server, you probably have no problem jumping in and editing files by hand. The desktop's bottleneck in Slackware was always the X configuration. Slackware shipped with a config that "just barely worked," using the minimally-capable SVGA driver. That way, immediately after the post-install account setup, you could log in, type "startx", and expect to see a working GUI. Changing to a different driver was a trivial task, but involved editing the X11.conf file by hand (and if you can learn to use a mouse with your keyboard, you can also learn how to edit a stinkin' file. Your refusal to do so tells me you are just being a stubborn @$$). The Xorg hardware detection has vastly improved, so in many cases a configuration file isn't necessary. My netbook doesn't have one, and the GUI works fine. My desktop, OTOH, has Nvidia hardware, and the "nv" driver is gut-wrenchingly slow. Font rendering in both "nv" and Nouveau is not what I want, so I wind up using the propitiatory... preparatory... professorial...dang it, I just can't bring myself to say it. ;-) Anyway, as Xorg and the desktop improved, Slackware's visible aspect improved a lot with it. Most times, it doesn't need tweaking to become a more pleasant experience. The lumps in this case I'll blame on Xorg, as they work out the issues with hardware detection. Work past that, and KDE gives you GUI access to a lot of system configuration, like network and video resolution and keyboard setup. All without delving into code-patch Hades like some distros *cough*Ubuntu*cough*. |
| jdixon Apr 10, 2012 1:22 PM EDT |
> it seems Slackware needs some work to get it going... A bit, but noting onerous. As gus3 notes, since X now largely just works, there's a lot less than there used to be. Especially if the default drivers work well. The setup will walk you through the network configuration and I don't believe you still have to unmute your speakers as you did at one time. You will need to install the codecs and dvd libs, as they're not shipped by default. Ditto for flash, et.al. But that's true for a lot of distro's, even Ubuntu. Just try it in the virtual machine of your choice and see what you think. I think there are even preloaded virtual machines you can download if you look. If you do install it, do a full install, don't try to pick and choose what to install. It's not worth the time or trouble if you're just looking. Hmm. The preloaded machines I found were rather limited. A minimal install and a 64bit install with XFCE (but perhaps not KDE). I may have to create some sometime just to make them available. |
| number6x Apr 10, 2012 2:22 PM EDT |
When I started using SuSE it still showed its slackware origins very closely. It was Slackware with RPM. It was also very closely connected to KDE and contributed a lot of code to the KDE project. It evolved away from slacware and Novell cut the KDE connection. You could still use KDE without problems, but the cooperation was not the same. I stopped using it because it was getting too slow on my machine at the time. An AMD K6, 333 Mhz If I remember correctly. I was using NextStep (now gnustep) as my DE which helped, but SuSE support for the n-curses based YAST started falling behind and I switched completely to Debian. Debian plus NextStep worked great. I even bought a later computer with SuSE loaded from POGO (one of the vendors in the LXer database and based in a place called Redmond, WA). http://lxer.com/module/db/go/14/6577/ I stopped using SuSE regularly around release 8 or 9. I hope they recover well from their Novell adventure. |
| Fettoosh Apr 10, 2012 2:29 PM EDT |
I really never tried Slackware, I guess I should. Never know, I might like it. I have couple old machines (15 yrs old with 1 & 1.5 GHz - 512MB & 1.5MB respectively) I use for testing. I will see how it works. |
| caitlyn Apr 10, 2012 4:30 PM EDT |
I prefer SalixOS to vanilla Slackware. They replace very few Slackware packages and use the Slackware repository in addition to their own. However, they have nice, straightforward installation and configuration, all the package management stuff with automated dependency checking is in from the start, and the packages they add with their repository make a huge difference. The Sourcery front-end to slapt-src is really well done and makes building packages out of Slackbuilds.org almost as easy as installing already built packages. By staying close to Slackware and fully compatible they give up none of the stability, performance and speed. The quote gus3 is referring to is from my review of Slackware 12 and it's the one some in the Slackware community still absolutely hate me for. What I said: "To me Slackware is a fantastic base on which to build a first rate distribution. It is not what I consider to be a good distribution in its own right." My opinion has not changed. If people want to hate me for that, well... I'm OK with that. I also think Slackware is a TERRIBLE server distro. It lacks enterprise security features all of the enterprise distros (and I'll include Debian here) have by default. No PAM and no SELinux? Not on any of my servers. |
| jdixon Apr 10, 2012 4:45 PM EDT |
> If people want to hate me for that, well... I'm OK with that. I don't hate you, caitlyn. I merely disagree with you. :) But I agree that, for you, Slackware isn't a good distribution. It doesn't have some of the features you want and has features you don't want. And the features you want can't be easily added without it becoming effectively another distribution (i.e., VectorLinux, Zenwalk, or Salix). To each his/her own. |
| Ridcully Apr 10, 2012 6:33 PM EDT |
Oh boy......I asked for comments about Slackware and everybody tossed 'em in. Thankyou all very much indeed. I think Dinotrac has fingered the situation at my end rather well though.......plain simple inertia on my part (if it ain't broke....etc.) and the fact that I know the openSUSE OS quite well are the biggest barriers to my trialling Slackware....and of course he also noted what I think is a fantastic system tool: YaST. That software package is an absolute gem in my opinion and I can do things that I would otherwise never attempt. Assuming number6x is right (I really have no idea on this one) then I am already using "highly modified Slackware" in openSUSE.......So I shall stay where I am - again. And thanks Gus3, as always - much appreciated. And for Fettoosh, it's rather odd, but I feel comfortable with rpm based packages, just as others feel comfy with deb based ones. And rpm is now just as well supported as deb is - the days of missing bits are long, long, long gone. And Caitlyn, I am not sure I have even heard of SalixOS......you've given me something to research, even if I don't use it. And thanks Jdixon for all the technical bits....even if they are beyond my simple requirements, the info you gave makes darn good reading. |
| gus3 Apr 10, 2012 6:51 PM EDT |
Thanks, caitlyn. I was almost sure you had said that about "base on which to build." As for PAM, Pat has made his views on it known. In light of a root arbitrary code execution that just popped up in Samba, I'm afraid I'll have to side with Pat on this one. Downloading and installing a PAM module designed to capture and transfer passwords is a very, very bad thing indeed. It's that much worse, in that a single PAM module could capture passwords for many different services. As for SELinux, I have yet to see the system that can withstand foreign (non-repository) programs being installed and run without requiring a prayer to SELinux. And may SELinux have mercy on you if you don't pray it just right. More likely, it will interfere with services just as the crunch sets in. A Google search for "selinux" returns "how to turn the d@mn thing off" as hits #4 and #5 on the first page. What's interesting, is that the first three hits are describing SELinux, not talking about how to use it, unless you consider that the first hit is the Wikipedia article, which has as its sole usage example the "setenforce 0" command... which is how to turn the d@mn thing off! So caitlyn, if you haven't yet written an article that distills your knowledge and insight about practical server-side SELinux, I suggest you put it on your to-do list. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that; I'm being totally serious. Or, if you have, drop a link here. Please, share what you know. <8-0 |
| BernardSwiss Apr 10, 2012 7:10 PM EDT |
Wow, I've learned more in this discussion about Slackware than about SuSE. Well, that's OK -- I think I'm actually more interested in Slackware than in (Open)Suse, anyways. Thanks for the info, guys -- for my purposes, it made for a much better summary of Slackware than most reviews do. And just this weekend I made it to the computer swap meet, so I'll soon have a spare system assembled and ready to mess around with, again. As for (Open)Suse: Although the very first boxed Linux distro I ever bought was SuSE (because it was the only one that explicitly supported my graphics card), in the end I stayed away from it because it was fairly heavy on the hardware (my Win '98 was barely "middle of the road" when it was new), and had a reputation for ignoring and/or stomping on the standard Linux config files (I figured if I was going to make the switch to Linux, I wanted a more generic system to learn the basics on). I was wondering if SuSE or OpenSuse still have this... idiosyncratic... approach to configuration? It's something that reviews don't bother to mention, anymore. |
| number6x Apr 10, 2012 7:26 PM EDT |
Suse was originally a software services company that installed Linux. SLS and later Slackware which Slackware was based on. They also used parts of Jurix, a distro I don't remember. Jurix was written by Florian La Roche the creator of YAST. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSE_Linux_distributions SuSE has quite a bit of history behind it. Not as old as Slackware, but just a hair older than Red Hat. |
| caitlyn Apr 10, 2012 7:28 PM EDT |
PAM is what allows enterprise systems to use multiple authentication methods. Most enterprise shops simply can't live without it. Done properly it is not, in and of itself, a security issue more than anything else in a Linux system. SELinux: most admins don't take the time to learn how to do it properly. It isn't rocket science and certainly doesn't require prayer. I'm almost to the point of making it mandatory on my desktop/netbook as well because it certainly adds security. Here is the key @gus3: turn it on in permissive mode, which blocks nothing but logs everything. Build your policy from the resulting log. |
| jdixon Apr 10, 2012 9:22 PM EDT |
> ...assuming number6x is right (I really have no idea on this one) then I am already using "highly modified Slackware" in openSUSE.......So I shall stay where I am - again. He is. SuSE started as essentially Slackware with rpm and KDE (just as Mandrake was originally Red Hat with KDE). I understand that there was a gentleman's agreement between Pat and the SuSE developers that they would leave the US to Slackware and concentrate on Europe. If you look at the core SuSE packages, you'll even see that some of them use the same names as the Slackware packages. |
| Ridcully Apr 10, 2012 9:29 PM EDT |
@BernardSwiss.......Just for info, I remember in the "way back when" that SuSE could be a right royal mongrel when you were getting it sorted out on the graphics card.....but I did work out ways of testing for what to do including how to go back and forth in the sample screens. Nonetheless, I recall that on a number of occasions I was forced to entirely reload the OS when I completely mucked up the graphics side of the installation. That is long past history now and SUSE from at least version 10 is a breeze to install. One just puts in the disk, and it goes into automatic if you request that option: it detects your card, figures out the best way to run it and that's it........it has never failed me. Again, the sheer simplicity of the openSUSE distro is what appeals to me. It makes life for me incredibly easy. Granted 110% that what I like will not be satisfactory to many others, but ......that's the beauty of Linux - there's always an alternative. |
| gus3 Apr 10, 2012 9:48 PM EDT |
@jdixon: I thought Mandrake's big selling point was Pentium optimizations? |
| jdixon Apr 11, 2012 6:19 AM EDT |
gus3: Yes, I believe it was optimized for Pentium processors. Which, now that you've reminded me, is why I never really used it. The best machine I had available was a 486. |
| Ridcully Apr 11, 2012 5:54 PM EDT |
@caitlyn........I passed your mention (and a url to their home page) of SalixOS to a friend of mine who is into experimenting and his rather expressive comments are as follows: D*MN IMPRESSIVE! Xfce 64 bit Live ! Blazingly fast.......and that was on a live CD. Slow to load but once loaded blazingly fast. |
| caitlyn Apr 11, 2012 7:06 PM EDT |
@Ridcully: It's even better when you install it. SalixOS also has versions based on KDE, MATE, LXDE, Fluxbox and Ratpoison, all available both 32- and 64-bit. The MATE beta was just released and I'm playing with it now. Fans of GNOME 2.x should be very pleased. |
| caitlyn Apr 11, 2012 7:07 PM EDT |
@gus3: I had a chance to look at Fedora's SELinux docs. I don't need to write anything. It's already very well documented indeed. I believe CentOS also as decent SELinux docs. Pity the Slackware implementation was started and then ground to a halt. |
| jdixon Apr 11, 2012 7:34 PM EDT |
> Blazingly fast....... Of course. It's based on Slackware. What else did you expect? |
| gus3 Apr 11, 2012 7:45 PM EDT |
@caitlyn, then maybe I should take a look at them. The last time I tried to wade through them, my eyes ended up crossed for three days. Which is a neat trick, considering I have exotropic strabismus. |
| Ridcully Apr 11, 2012 9:52 PM EDT |
@caitlyn....... the basic openSUSE/KDE4 installation, is, naturally, rpm-based; and that is not how SalixOS operates from what I can see on the home page. And all of my archival software material is rpm-based. I also use third party, purchased software like TurboLinux for printing.....rpm based, but I know it also comes in debian.....Also what about things like Xine, VLC, Crossover Office, Vuescan, Java, etc. etc. I am envious of Salix' speed, but if it cannot run what I need in my daily work, it's simply not a practical move. |
| jdixon Apr 11, 2012 11:48 PM EDT |
> ...what about things like Xine, VLC, Crossover Office, Vuescan, Java, etc. etc. Java and Xine are available as a Slackware packages if they're not included. I have no idea what will happen with Java in the future though. VLC is available from Slackbuilds.org. Crossover office also comes with a distro neutral .sh installer. A vuesacn package seems to be available from slacky, but I couldn't find much else out about it. Slackware uses xsane for scanning. In general, if a program is available for another distribution, it has or can be ported to Slackware (and is thus available for Salix), though their may be some work involved. As an example, the latest VMware View client only seems to be available for Ubuntu. I was able to extract the files from the Ubuntu package and repackage them into a Slackware package on my 13.1 box with about an hour of work. |
| caitlyn Apr 12, 2012 12:54 AM EDT |
@Ridcully: SalixOS uses Slackware (.txz) packages, not rpm. However, everything you mentioned except for Crossover Office and Vuescan are in the SalixOS repositories. However, both SalixOS and Slackware include rpm and can install rpm packages. What SalixOS can't do is automated dependency checking for an rpm. That's limited to txz packages. SalixOS includes Simple Scan by default and offers XSane in the repository. |
| slacker_mike Apr 12, 2012 11:36 AM EDT |
Slackware added a library of pam for google chrome for Slackware 13.37. granted it is not full-blown pam. http://slackblogs.blogspot.com/2011/04/pam-package-in-1337.h... Looks like Pat doesn't necessarily have as strong of views on pam as he once did. http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/linux-t... |
| Fettoosh Apr 12, 2012 1:32 PM EDT |
I am sure Slackware, SalixOs, etc are all pretty good, but the point is, Linux distros have to get to a point where a Distro should Just-works. A distro can't any more afford "you_need_to_do_this_to_get_that" or "you_have_to_download_that_for_that_to_work". It has to be intuitive and user friendly enough, especially on tablets, to be usable and attractive by normal average human beings who are only interested in using a computer device just as they use a car, just jump in or on and drive. Woof. |
| slacker_mike Apr 12, 2012 2:43 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh, why would you say that all Linux distros need to get to a "just works" standpoint? That seems to be the goal of quite a few distributions already so why do all of them need to adhere to that standpoint? Linux has already reached the point that it is friendly enough on various devices to be used by any type of user. Linux gets used in a number of devices where the user doesn't even have a clue they are using Linux. |
| Ridcully Apr 12, 2012 11:59 PM EDT |
And here, I believe, is a classic example of what Fettoosh and slacker_mike are talking about (with caitlyn looking on). My experimental friend downloaded the 64bit Xfce version of SalixOS......in live mode, he was hooked by its speed and ability. He then tried to install it......and again........and again..........and it crashed and refused to install each time.....The CD is now in the WPB........It simply didn't "just work" even for installation. And that is a shame, a real shame. As for me, I'm happy that openSUSE "just works", even if I have to massage personal settings in KDE4 to make the DE run the way I want......that's fine. On the other hand, a distro like Gentoo is, I believe, quite the opposite and it takes quite a bit of Linux know-how to fine tune it to perfection, and that's terrific as well for "them's as like the nutz and boltz of working with Linux". Each to their own, I say ! And long live Linux choice. |
| jdixon Apr 13, 2012 6:28 AM EDT |
> I am sure Slackware, SalixOs, etc are all pretty good, but the point is, Linux distros have to get to a point where a Distro should Just-works. That's only going to happen with preloaded machines. Do you think Windows just works? If you do, you've never tried to install it on a bare machine. > ...and it crashed and refused to install each time.... That can happen. No distribution out there supports every hardware combination. :( |
| Fettoosh Apr 13, 2012 10:03 AM EDT |
Quoting:Linux has already reached the point that it is friendly enough on various devices to be used by any type of user @Slacker_mike, Notice that I didn't say all Linux, I said Linux Distros. May be I should have said some Linux Distros. Then again, I personally haven't found such Distro. Mind you, that doesn't mean they couldn't. What I mean is they haven't attempted or don't have the resources. Quoting:Do you think Windows just works? @JD, You I know don't, and I haven't used Windows on any of my home personal machines since 1996-7. I had an Apple before that. But my point is, like I said above, it is not that Linux Distros can't be made closer to almost- perfect, it just most Distros are pretty much not taking the issue seriously enough. They want to release the latest and greatest without serious QA just to be better than and ahead of the others. Some distros just want to make the latest and greatest available just so developers get more testing and better feedback. But that is a different story and users need to be made aware of such releases. It is time to take the desktop and hand held devices seriously enough, similar to Linux servers, for average users trust they can depend on it. I believe Dino made that point multiple times against KDE team breaking the desktop. I agreed with him as he asked, and I rephrase, "wouldn't one refrain from using KDE 4 if his/her source of income depended on it?". I am sure everyone would agree with that. |
| Fettoosh Apr 13, 2012 10:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:As for me, I'm happy that openSUSE "just works", ... Sorry @Ridcully, I disagree. You are running Suse with KDE, but the fact is, KMail doesn't work for you. Granted it is not Suse's problem but rather a KDE problem, but Suse should have kept the working KMail 1.x version instead of updating to KMail 2. I believe such issues are the responsibility of the Distro to take care of. All Distros should have a long term support version. If it is not possible for any reason, it should be clearly published so users know what they are getting into. I believe that is one of the main areas that Distros need to pay attentions to and improve for Linux to be able to compete with Apple and others. |
| alc Apr 13, 2012 4:40 PM EDT |
"All Distros should have a long term support version. If it is not possible for any reason, it should be clearly published so users know what they are getting into." I'd be curious to know if Suse Enterprise has any of the same issues. I use open Suse 11.3 for work and it's perfectly stable. I had 12.1 on my home comp and there were a few issues with it but nothing that I couldn't fix until my hardware decided to take a dump. If anyone is using Res Hat, I'd like to know how their long term support and stability are. |
| caitlyn Apr 13, 2012 5:44 PM EDT |
Fettoosh: I wish your friend had taken five minutes to visit the SalixOS forum. In general, the live CD installer is a POS. The installable CD works very, very well indeed and I'd bet it wouldn't have crashed. Once installed SalixOS is as user friendly as any Linux distro running XFCE (since that was his choice) and I doubt he would have had much trouble. In general, instead of trying "again and again" a simple question might have yielded a simple answer, less frustration, and a much better outcome. Windows is no easier to install and supports far less hardware out of the box. As others have noted, it seems easier because it's preinstalled. No Linux distro just works on all hardware. openSUSE most certainly does NOT on my hardware, though it can be made to work. The comment that "all Linux distributions" should have long term support is silly at best. The garage distro made by the hobbyist really can't offer support at all. Some I would argue are such a mess that they shouldn't be released at all (No, thankfully, there aren't any major distros in that category.) The open nature of Linux guarantees that distros come in all shapes and sizes and levels of difficulty. Stick to the major ones and most work well in most use cases within their design parameters. I'd say they achieve that at least as well as Windows does and probably better. @slacker_mike: I agree with you. Yet, when someone (like me, in a review) points out that Slackware claims to be easy to use (not for the non-technical sort, it's not) and that really, compared to other distros, it isn't, some in the Slackware community get very bent out of shape. You'd think I'd threatened to drown their baby in a bathtub or something. This isn't unique to Slackware, of course, and the Slackware community is certainly nowhere near the worst in this area. Still, religious devotion and zealotry around Linux distributions tends to drive people away and make Linux as a whole look ridiculous. I write this because I wish you'd take what you posted here, which is good and sensible, and spread that message throughout the Slackware community. Slackware has some incredibly strong points and does some things incredibly well. It's stable and it performs well and tends to have relatively few bugs. Tout those points. Don't get bent out of shape when making an ease of use claim that, using accepted definitions of usability, simply doesn't hold up. |
| Ridcully Apr 13, 2012 6:27 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh
Quoting:Sorry @Ridcully, I disagree. @Fettosh and @alc. I wouldn't put it quite that way Fettoosh. Right now, the version of KMail I am using "just works". I simply keep watching the releases of KDE4 and openSUSE and testing them.......and until this one piece of software within the entire package "just works", I stay where I am on a version of both that really does "just work" - wpb for the other versions. But a single problem package (KMail) in an entire system that otherwise definitely does "just work" is not quite as nasty a problem. And if all else fails, there are other email client options and those have all been explored. I do disagree with you however, on openSUSE's responsibilities with KMail. Given the time schedules and testing routines for an enormous OS, and then add at least "surface testing" of the entire suite of more or less complex DE's that come with openSUSE, I am reasonably sure that openSUSE would not have picked up the problem - nor do I see it as openSUSE's primary responsibility. I lay all the KMail problems firmly at the feet of the KDE team and the KMail developers in particular. The KMail version that was contained in KDE4.7 was very obviously defective/unfinished and should never have been released. It's rather like "shades of KDE4.0", and the only thing you learn from history is that developers don't seem to learn from history. Even if it's defective, get out the new version if only for personal satisfaction - user turn-off is immaterial. That's a bit cynical I guess, but it's how I sometimes feel. Alc, I am personally rather pleased someone else has found the same solution I came to adopting. I also am using openSUSE 11.3 and like you, I have found it perfectly stable and so good that I see no reason to upgrade even though SUSE is no longer supporting this version. @caitlyn.......I am going to make sure my "experimental friend" checks on your comments. Personally, I'd like him to fiddle about and get the thing going because I am sure he'd be extremely pleased with SalixOS once it loaded up for him. Thanks again for the comments. |
| caitlyn Apr 13, 2012 8:06 PM EDT |
@RIdcully: You're very welcome. I apologize for mixing up your comments with Fettoosh's. Obviously my response should have been directed to you. Good discussion all around. |
| Fettoosh Apr 13, 2012 8:33 PM EDT |
@caitlyn, I think you meant to address your first two paragraph to @Rifcully and the next two are were directed to me, I will responded to those. Quoting:Windows is no easier to install and supports far less hardware out of the box. As others have noted, it seems easier because it's preinstalled. No Linux distro just works on all hardware. openSUSE most certainly does NOT on my hardware, though it can be made to work. I don't like windows, I don't run windows, I don't think Windows is better than Linux, and Windows has nothing to do with what I said. I was strictly talking about Linux Distros and how QA should be taken more seriously. Quoting:The comment that "all Linux distributions" should have long term support is silly at best. The garage distro made by the hobbyist really can't offer support at all. Some I would argue are such a mess that they shouldn't be released at all (No, thankfully, there aren't any major distros in that category.) The open nature of Linux guarantees that distros come in all shapes and sizes and levels of difficulty. Stick to the major ones and most work well in most use cases within their design parameters. I'd say they achieve that at least as well as Windows does and probably better. We are not in a political debate to select sound bite and drop the rest of a statement. and I didn't say "all Linux distributions" period, I added the clause "If it is not possible for any reason,". Here it is again so you can read again. Quoting:All Distros should have a long term support version. If it is not possible for any reason, it should be clearly published so users know what they are getting into. What that means is, Distros that did NOT go through sufficient QA and not sure that every thing will work as they should, they should be flagged as experimental so users are aware that additional work might be needed. Take K/Ubuntu for instance, Ubuntu *.04 are LTS while others are not. Also, experimental, under development, and PPA packages are kept separate. They are made available for those who want them on different repositories. That I would call a good software management. If that is not possible for any reason, then that particular Distro should be declared experimental. I don't think this silly, on the contrary, this is maintaining certain level of quality assurance. About Distros in the garage and half backed distros and such, no one is saying they should be banned from being released. They can do whatever they want and like but should not claim them ready for average users. |
| caitlyn Apr 13, 2012 10:15 PM EDT |
OK, I accept your correction on the LTS comment. Who's going to enforce that, BTW? Ubuntu, for example, claims that the six month releases are ready for the general public. They say so explicitly. Similarly, the garage distros won't say they are in any way inferior. Like everything else in Linux, QA can, does and will come in all shapes and sizes and in widely varying levels of quality. |
| gus3 Apr 13, 2012 10:52 PM EDT |
@caitlyn: And I apologize for accidentally putting words in your mouth. Hopefully, they didn't taste too awful. |
| Ridcully Apr 14, 2012 3:25 AM EDT |
@Fettoosh......My perception (and it is mine only) is that the main problem with moving to another email client is transferring your data from the old one to the new one. Importing facilities (relevant to other email software packages) for most of these email clients are screamingly inadequate. You just aren't able to do it without rather specialised knowledge. Let's suppose I decide to dump KMail for Thunderbird or Evolution. Getting your KMail emails into either of those clients is a pain in the neck. At the moment, the only sure and certain way I think it could be done is by progressive transmission in "forwarding mode" of all of my emails so that I can receive them again in the new client. Slow as there are over 500 emails to be sorted out, but it would work. However, I am irritated at the work I would have to do......And even more so by the KMail team that produced the irritation in the first place. However, I live in hope that in the next, or the next, or the next iteration, KMail will "just work" and once again become the solid client that it always was. Of course, there is always the option of GMail.......but I sorta don't want to put my data in the cloud. My personal comfort zone choice.....or Luddite tendencies....LOL :-) |
| Fettoosh Apr 14, 2012 11:36 AM EDT |
Quoting:However, I live in hope that in the next, or the next, or the next iteration, KMail will "just work" and once again become the solid client that it always was. @Ridcully, If you haven't noticed how much I favor and defend KDE team, you will now. :-) I believe the KDE team is doing a fantastic job in terms of building a platform that is superior to any other. I have no doubt at all that KMail will eventually work perfectly and superbly. The changes that KMail is going through I have no doubt are the right thing to do to address issues you mention and others they have in their overall plan. Performance, reliability, serviceability, scalability, and robustness are some of those. I currently use Gmail. I don't know whether KMail, after the changes are done, is going to be as good as GMail, but couple things that are very important to a good number of people that GMail denies its users are privacy and freedom. I am sure these are very important to you. But, the approach that KMail developers have used to roll out the new version is not unique. it also plague many, if not all FOOS applications, with the exception of the Kernel and a few major applications. That has to change. FOSS is no longer a teen age product, it matured enough not only to be a contender, but also ready to replace many of the commercial software. It should change because it is harming its chances of becoming the major player in IT. This change doesn't require a lot of resources, it just needs more attention to QA and show responsibility. I believe things are changing, especially in KDE. KDE is expanding in an organized way and becoming more responsible to their users. The handling of KDE 5/Qt 5 upgrade plan and the couple revenue generating projects, Vivaldi/Spark & MyCloud, are good examples. The inclusion of KDEnlive among others, and restructuring KOffice and releasing it as Calligra Suite are also indication of positive change. Let's hope things will happen sooner than later. |
| Fettoosh Apr 14, 2012 12:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Who's going to enforce that, BTW? ... the garage distros won't say they are in any way inferior. I don't recall, Tracyanne or Tuxchick, who said that herding FOSS developers is like herding cats, I agree and we shouldn't expect for any one or entity to be able to enforce anything on them. But, I am sure project leaders are professional enough to see the need to become more serious about giving QA more consideration. Another thing that now might be the time to start is to have Distro Ranking. A ranking that would be helpful for both novice and power users to get an idea about the various numerous Distros. I would suggest that, either The Free Software Foundation or The Linux Foundation, to make an effort and take the initiative to establish such ranking. It would be similar to DistroWatch but based on more scientific measures. May be by establishing standard bench marks to test functionalities. Like I said before in different comment, Linux OS is technically mature and ready, it only needs more attention to QA and to show more responsibility to the needs of businesses. |
| Ridcully Apr 14, 2012 6:22 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh.....while I more or less agree with most of what you have written directly above and also happen to prefer KDE as my DE (which tells you that I like it very much indeed - so your defence of KDE to me is un-necessary), I am pleased to see that you also seem to be heading down the same opinion path as I have with respect to releases of software packages - or that's my interpretation anyhow. I have a very simple view: No matter how tempting, a software package should NOT be released until there is good reason to believe that any person who tries to use it, will find that it "just works". And on that particular aspect, I agree very strongly with you as regards the operation of "flagship" software packages such as Fedora, Ubuntu, openSUSE, Gnome, KDE, etc. etc.; they have to produce "good vibes" in anyone who picks them up for a trial because it's positive advertising. Humans aren't infallible, so there will always be errors - that's acceptable and defensible. But muckups like KMail's latest fiasco aren't the same thing and remain indefensible. I'd change one word in your statement "I believe things are changing, especially in KDE". Change "believe" to "hope".....preferably "strongly hope". |
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