Ubuntu no longer a flag bearer for Linux
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| cmost Apr 25, 2012 3:30 AM EDT |
This review by an Ubuntu fanboi is a typical rosy eyed view of another Ubuntu release where the developers have gone out on their own as usual. My only exception is where the author foolishly proclaims that Ubuntu is a flag bearer for Linux on the desktop. Not only has Ubuntu's popularity plummeted in favor of the much saner Linux Mint, but Ubuntu even had the gall to rename the Linux kernel Ubuntu kernel. How is this supporting Linux? Give me a break! |
| BernardSwiss Apr 25, 2012 4:26 AM EDT |
So that's why using the Debian repo's is so chancy on my Ubuntu box! B-P |
| patrickjmquinn Apr 25, 2012 9:21 AM EDT |
Im an Arch user.... If Ubuntu isn't the flag bearer what is? Mint doesn't have the commercial backing of Ubuntu. I like Mint, if it was a Mint review i would have been equally positive. In the past ive been the first to criticize Ubuntu. No need to be so unpleasant, its a review, not a tax bill. |
| jdixon Apr 25, 2012 10:49 AM EDT |
> If Ubuntu isn't the flag bearer what is? I'd have to say Debian. And I'm a Slackware user. |
| patrickjmquinn Apr 25, 2012 11:35 AM EDT |
Debian is one of the godfathers of Linux but people are much much more lightly to know what Ubuntu is over Debian. Ubuntu is also in the spotlight far more than Debian, some of the most popular Linux blogs, WebUpd8 and OMGUBUNTU cover Ubuntu almost exclusively. I know people who could tell you what Ubuntu is but not what Linux is. Thats saying something. |
| jdixon Apr 25, 2012 11:59 AM EDT |
> ...but people are much much more lightly to know what Ubuntu is over Debian. Fame does not a flag bearer make. :) Without Debian, there would be no Ubuntu as we know it. If you're asking what distribution is the best known, that's one thing, but that's not what you asked. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 25, 2012 12:02 PM EDT |
Can't say I'm all that surprised that a site calling itself "OMGUBUNTU" would cover Ubuntu "almost exclusively". "I know people who could tell you what Ubuntu is but not what Linux is." That, right there, is a major problem. |
| patrickjmquinn Apr 25, 2012 12:23 PM EDT |
Yes but WebUpd8 doesn't just cover Ubuntu so i couldn't just say "two of the most popular Linux blogs are Ubuntu blogs exclusively" as that would be untrue. And yes while It may be a problem its a totally separate one. Im not saying that Ubuntu being representative of Linux is a good thing, what i am saying is that its easily the best release in the recent cycle and considering it is seen to be the poster boy (regardless of its recent drop in popularity it still is seen to be the poster boy unless you live in lala land) for Linux its a nice enough experience for first time Linux users to enter into. Hell even Linus was in praise of Ubuntu's user focus (He also pointed out how outrageous it was to have to enter in the super user password to select a wireless network on OpenSuse but i wont get into that here). /Whits |
| jdixon Apr 25, 2012 12:37 PM EDT |
> it still is seen to be the poster boy... Now, that's a more reasonable term than flag bearer. |
| patrickjmquinn Apr 25, 2012 12:46 PM EDT |
Hmm perhaps it was a poor choice of terminology actually, i think ill amend the posting to clear things up a little |
| Koriel Apr 25, 2012 1:23 PM EDT |
Far as im concerned Ubuntu is not Linux as thats the way Canonical want it, so any reference to it being a poster-boy or flag bearer for Linux should be removed as they are most definitely not.
If any one deserves that moniker its Debian or Redhat. Ubuntu is a flag bearer for Ubuntu and nothing else it is not even a member of the Linux community it is a member of the Ubuntu community hell even Microsoft are now putting more code into the Linux kernel than Canonical. Just my tuppence's worth. |
| caitlyn Apr 25, 2012 2:40 PM EDT |
I'm preparing a review of ROSA Desktop (the likely successor to Mandriva) for a certain famous Linux website that starts with a "D". ROSA Labs is a for profit company, of course, and unlike Mandriva nobody is suggesting they have any sort of financial difficulty. Based on the beta (the final version releases tomorrow) I can see a threat to Ubuntu's popularity on the horizon. Only time will tell. |
| patrickjmquinn Apr 25, 2012 2:49 PM EDT |
If its using KDE4 you can count me out, never liked KDE, however i started out in Linux running Mandrake and then Mandriva so if they offer a good Gnome3 or Xfce variant I'm certainly up for giving that a try. Look forward to that review Caitlyn, let us know when its up :) |
| caitlyn Apr 25, 2012 4:01 PM EDT |
They offer KDE (4.8.2) or LXDE. No GNOME or Xfce at this point. Their KDE is very highly customized and they have some unique (in house developed) multimedia apps that have gotten some very positive notice thanks to some unique features. The review will publish either on Monday or a week from Monday, depending on whether the publisher wants to run the Ubuntu review another writer is working on first or after the ROSA article. Last I heard he had not decided. |
| Koriel Apr 25, 2012 4:03 PM EDT |
I just tried ROSA LXDE Beta 3 but it gave me too many issues on a VMWare vm so will wait for the final version and try again. Hopefully those issues will be fixed. Also just loaded up the newly released LMDE Xfce version on a vm and its looking very good. |
| caitlyn Apr 25, 2012 4:07 PM EDT |
I don't use a VM for testing as I know it is problematic with a lot of distros. I'm curious where you found "Beta 3" since there has only been one beta. Are you perhaps mixing up Mageia and ROSA? They are two different Mandriva forks with completely separate development teams. |
| Koriel Apr 25, 2012 4:24 PM EDT |
@caitlyn
You are right its just one beta of ROSA, had it confused with the Mageia 2 beta 3 which I haven't got around to trying yet. The problem with ROSA beta is it is shipping with a 3.0.x kernel but the header files it has installed are 2.6.x this means I can't install/compile Vmware tools due to mismatched headers. I had a look around in the ROSA software installer but it does not have the 3.0.0.x headers there either, shipping with mismatched headers is always a no no as it makes software compilation very tricky if not impossible in some cases. Their were also some minor issues not related to the VM such as me specifying on install UK keyboard but once it started up it was still US keyboard then I went into the control centre and changed it again there to UK but that failed as well. It turns out you have to use the keyboard preferences tool shipped with LXDE as it overrides the system settings can't say I have come across any other distro that does that by default, although since this is primarily a russian distro that might be the reason. |
| flufferbeer Apr 25, 2012 5:45 PM EDT |
@Koriel, > Ubuntu is a flag bearer for Ubuntu and nothing else it is not even a member of the Linux community it is a member of the Ubuntu community hell even Microsoft are now putting more code into the Linux kernel than Canonical. Yeah, and do you see what ubuntu.com keeps on writing about its distro on its homepage?? I quote: "Fast, secure and stylishly simple, the Ubuntu operating system is used by 20 million people worldwide every day." Not the Ubuntu LINUX operating system mind you; it's just THE "Ubuntu OS"! The hutzpa of them all. Just sayin'...... +1 Koriel My 2c |
| skelband Apr 25, 2012 5:54 PM EDT |
For that matter, shouldn't they be calling it the Ubuntu GNU/Linux/LibreOffice/Firefox/Evolution/Rhythmbox/... OS? |
| Koriel Apr 25, 2012 6:02 PM EDT |
Actually I have no problem with Canonical marketing Ubuntu without ever mentioning Linux as long as they remember that it is a double-edged sword and I wish reviewers would also not refer to Linux when they are talking about Ubuntu for me its a completely separate entity and provides very little real worth back to the Linux community. |
| tracyanne Apr 25, 2012 6:26 PM EDT |
+1 Koriel |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 25, 2012 7:17 PM EDT |
I'd say that Ubuntu was the standard bearer for Linux but is no longer. My answer is necessarily colored by my personal experience, but in my mind Ubuntu held the "standard-bearer" position from the Dapper Drake release -- the project's first LTS -- in 2006 until (depending on your point of view) either the 9.10 release (2009) or 10.04 release -- or as far as the 11.04 release (2011). My personal view is that Ubuntu was the "flag bearer" from 2006-2011 -- pretty much six years. That's eons in Linux time. As trivial as it sounds, flipping the buttons from right to left was an ominous sign. Packing LTS releases with barely-beta features (Ubuntu One, Gwibber/beam and social menu in 10.04, Unity and HUD in 12.04) totally undercuts Ubuntu's mission to provide enterprise-ready desktops. The focus on TV, tablet and mobile products that never seem to really gain any traction takes the focus off of desktop Linux even more. While I think Unity is a good decision for Canonical the company, and to a lesser extent for Ubuntu the project, it separates Ubuntu from what we think of as a community-driven Linux distribution. Canonical may succeed as a company with its current strategy, but it will be as a maker of OSes for devices and not as the so-called standard bearer for desktop Linux (for whatever that's worth; and that's obviously not much). And Mint is grabbing all of that mind-share anyway. I see a lot of fragmentation as other distributions rise in popularity among both hardcore users and new users. Ubuntu is definitely not the standard bearer at this point. On the bright side, I like what Ubuntu Server is doing -- long-term support, bringing more features to the table that enterprise customers want, etc. But on the desktop? The window (no pun intended) is open for another distribution to grab the "standard-bearer" crown. Right now I think that distro is Mint. But it's a wide-open race. (I discovered fairly early on -- at least by mid-2007 -- that Debian wasn't that much harder to install than Ubuntu, posed many fewer problems with the slower release cycle, and ran the same GNOME desktop appreciably faster.) Ubuntu may be able to climb out of the hole it's dug itself into, but I really don't think it wants to do that. Question: Is this good for Linux? No. There's clearly a need for an easy-to-install-use-and-love distribution with a huge, helpful community like Ubuntu. Debian, as much as I love it, Arch and Slackware are NOT candidates for newbie-friendly introduction to Linux. I still see this as Mint's opportunity to dominate. But this is a volatile situation, one rife with opportunity. Still, I'd bet on Mint. |
| BernardSwiss Apr 25, 2012 7:31 PM EDT |
I think part of the discussion here revolves around the definition of "Flag-bearer", which as has as I understand it, has a wide range of meanings. At one end of the spectrum, it refers to military tradition, in which bearing the flag was not only a post of honour, but a vital task in action. The flag bearer accompanied the units commanding officer(s), provided orientation for manoeuvres and taking position for battle, a rallying point in the confusion of battle, and reassurance that functioning leadership was alive (and still present) in the thick of battle. Flag-bearers often needed their own guard because it was a common tactic to target the flag-bearers, so that the enemy would be disheartened by its fall and disappearance from view. In a hard battle a unit might go through several flag-bearers, as replacements would have to take the place of the last poor bugger who had that job. Loss of one's flag was often the consequence of defeat, a trophy to the victor, and an affront to honour otherwise. At the other end of the spectrum, a flag-bearer is just some guy with strong arms, at the head of some group or organizational cohort marching down the street in the Labour Day parade. So, is every one talking about the same thing? |
| tracyanne Apr 25, 2012 7:37 PM EDT |
Lets put it this way I Don't think Ubuntu is a rallying point for the Linux community. |
| BernardSwiss Apr 25, 2012 7:41 PM EDT |
Not any more -- that's for sure. But if it never had been, we wouldn't bother discussing the matter, either. (edit: for clarity, tone) |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 25, 2012 7:46 PM EDT |
Even though Ubuntu's primary mission was welcoming new users to the Linux desktop, power users both got what they wanted technically and were excited about joining and supporting this mission to spread the gospel of Linux among the rest of the world. They believed in Ubuntu. Had that strategy caused money to pour into Canonical, things very well might have continued in that spirit and with that enthusiasm. But it didn't. And Canonical is looking for ways to turn a buck. Nothing wrong with that. But the community seems like a free-labor-providing, endlessly cheerleading afterthought. Relationships with upstream projects are strained or broken (I'm mostly talking about GNOME). Canonical is looking a lot more like Apple. That's great if you love Apple and its relationship with its customers. But it's not a community. GNOME 3 running off the rails a bit didn't help matters, nor did Ubuntu's decision to roll out its own crazy, half-finished desktop. Odd all around. I consider this a very troubling time for Linux on the desktop. |
| caitlyn Apr 25, 2012 8:21 PM EDT |
I actually consider it a very promising time for Linux on the desktop. I see the most likely candidates to capture mindshare right now, and it is wide open, are those doing something very different from Ubuntu. That isn't Mint. It could be Mageia or ROSA or Fedora (doubtful) or openSUSE. |
| montezuma Apr 25, 2012 8:59 PM EDT |
To paraphrase Elvis Costello on the linux desktop I used to be concerned now I try to be relaxed. When gnome 3 and unity hit I worried a lot about which desktop I would use. Nowadays I care a lot less. I use Cinnamon, Gnome Classic or Mate depending on mood and it makes little difference. |
| Koriel Apr 25, 2012 9:05 PM EDT |
Maybe i'm just an optimist (very doubtful) but like caitlyn I see this as a great opportunity for other desktop Linux's to fill the gap that Ubuntu once occupied the likeliest candidates being Mint, Mageia and possibly ROSA. |
| caitlyn Apr 25, 2012 10:28 PM EDT |
You know what: I'd add Debian to the list of possibilities. It's a lot more user friendly than it used to be and the repository is simply huge. The big thing holding openSUSE back was the community attitude to the deal between Novell and Microsoft, which was understandable. With Novell relegated to history that should no longer be an issue. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 26, 2012 1:03 AM EDT |
Another Debian derivative? Sure. But Debian proper? As much as I love Debian -- it's what I run -- I just don't see it. |
| jdixon Apr 26, 2012 9:15 AM EDT |
> Debian, as much as I love it, Arch and Slackware are NOT candidates for newbie-friendly introduction to Linux. That the problem, yes. And neither Slackware nor Arch can become that, as that's not their focus. Caitlyn is correct, Debian is far more newbie friendly than it used to be, but I'm not sure it's enough, and how much of that was driven by Ubuntu's success? We do need a newbie friendly desktop distro that's community oriented. It's obvious that Ubuntu is no longer going to provide it. Who will, if anyone? |
| flufferbeer Apr 26, 2012 10:26 AM EDT |
@jdixon, > We do need a newbie friendly desktop distro that's community oriented. It's obvious that Ubuntu is no longer going to provide it. Who will, if anyone? Linux Mint. While caitlyn's own opinion above is that the most likely candidate to capture mindshare right now certainly "isn't Mint", I actually agree much more with Steven_Rosenber and others that it's a better bet Linux Mint actually COULD be this likely candidate. I think we can all agree that according to Distrowatch.com, Linux Mint is VASTLY more popular than all the other distros..... the fully self-acknowledged LINUX distros that is ;). So much for capturing mindshare. I also think that Linux Mint has effectively supplanted Ubuntu as being one of the top newbie friendly and community oriented desktop distros. +2 Steven_Rosenber (for his first two insightful comments on this thread) and +2more (non-CentOS) cents |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 26, 2012 1:30 PM EDT |
A co-worker today mentioned Mint out of the blue to me. Interesting. |
| caitlyn Apr 26, 2012 1:33 PM EDT |
Was I adamant about it not being Mint? I don't think so. I just don't see it as the most likely for a number of reasons, mainly that it is downstream from Ubuntu and that it doesn't have a big organization or company behind it. Mindshare is about free marketing and Mint really doesn't market itself. The reason I say it could be ROSA Desktop is best expressed in this article: http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/04/20/5-user-friendly-applica... They bring something new to the table and this is just the beginning for them. |
| Koriel Apr 26, 2012 2:13 PM EDT |
I think Mint stands a good chance, but the problem is their main edition is reliant on Ubuntu. If they were to concentrate their excellent efforts on the Debian edition then that in my opinion would be a good move. |
| caitlyn Apr 26, 2012 3:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:If they were to concentrate their excellent efforts on the Debian edition then that in my opinion would be a good move. I agree, Koriel. I also noticed ROSA pushed their release back from today until Sunday. Releasing only when it's ready? What a novel concept! That should definitely help. |
| patrickjmquinn Apr 26, 2012 6:29 PM EDT |
today is the Ubuntu 12.04 release date, id imagine it because they don't want their release overshadowed (get your flamethrowers out Linux fans) |
| vainrveenr Apr 27, 2012 10:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:today is the Ubuntu 12.04 release date, id imagine it because they don't want their release overshadowed (get your flamethrowers out Linux fans) Perhaps there will be several written pieces appearing here within the week, containing all the detailed reviews and features anyone would ever want to know about Ubuntu 12.04, Kubuntu 12.04, Xubuntu 12.04, Lubuntu 12.04, Edubuntu 12.04, ...etcetera. The DistroWatch homepage already fully lists all these 'buntus' Distribution Release announcements. |
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