A few common fallacies
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| lxerguest May 01, 2012 12:33 PM EDT |
As a distro hopper since 2004, I searched for and found many excellent and user-friendly debian-based distributions,including knoppix,kanotix,sidux(now aptosid), avlinux,and some that you never heard of.I still have a copy of my old kde3-based Kanotix 2005 which compares favorably with the Ubuntu of the time,and holds its own with current offerings. People keep perpetuating the fallacy that before Ubuntu there was a lack of easy-to-use distros.I have physical evidence that that is not true. What is true is Ubuntu promotion made itself easily DISCOVERABLE.There is also a blog by ex-Mandriva employee Adam Williamson titled "Success of Ubuntu" that demonstrates through WTC and other website data that the rate of Linux growth was higher before Ubuntu, reinforcing the notion that people were not finding Linux adoption so impossible before. Since the longest time,people have said I don't use Linux because I can't run X application or Y hardware.Others don't even know why they don't use Linux because it's not an option they see for sale.Canonical does near el zippo to address these situations like developing kernel,graphics,office,photoshop clones,wine,or addressing niche opportunities like making latest Ubuntu work well on old hardware. They also share responsibility for killing profitabilty,and hence competitiveness of Linux companies you mentioned through their privately-subsidized MS-style DUMPING tactics. The Unity desktop is what they are proposing to compete against the dominant business desktop,and you think that criticizing that is like criticizing a theme???It sounds more like you ars pandering to the popularity of Canonical,because you are not that dumb. Remember when Canonical said the MS monopoly is bug#1? Well the truth is other Linux companies are bug#1.A good theory has predictive value. |
| flufferbeer May 01, 2012 1:55 PM EDT |
It is interesting to me that less than a week after Precise Pangolin's release and all the subsequent feature reviews on PP, such as this, that Mint keeps on BLOWING AWAY Ubuntu in the DistroWatch.com rankings. Even a one-wk timespan shows Mint's popularity DOUBLE that of Baboontu, wowee! @lxerguest you wrote: > They also share responsibility for killing profitabilty, and hence competitiveness of Linux companies you mentioned through their privately-subsidized MS-style DUMPING tactics. +1 I see these DUMPING tactics as 1st Canonical's way-back-when Ship-It program,when a simple Launchpad account would get you several nice Ubuntu or Kubuntu CDs to try out on your PC and then ebcourage others to try out. That was more gently persuasive, though. Now, the ramped-up dumping part is when Canonical has its agents (read: team-members) directly flood the computer waves with pushed copies of Baboontu w/ LUnity online or WHENEVER computer people meet. Okay, maybe really more like Canonical _over-presenting_ rather than pushing those Baboontu CDs to the exclusion of any other distros, but still.... On the higher level of the Baboontu devs, I see the Canonical strategy IS somehting like M$'s, with the Embrace and Extend parts of Macro$uck's EEE selected w/o the Extinguish (yet!). 2c |
| Bob_Robertson May 01, 2012 2:17 PM EDT |
Microsoft is also ramping up the FUD, this is too recent not to be a plant: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/043012-linux-desktop-2... Why Linux is a desktop flop By Maria Korolov, Network World April 30, 2012 07:03 AM ET |
| skelband May 01, 2012 2:29 PM EDT |
@Bob: I just read that article. The trouble is, superficially, they all sound so *reasonable*. They mention a Linux success story for balance. However, apparently the only reason that they could use it was because their users just had "simple needs". Talk about a back-handed comment :D |
| gus3 May 01, 2012 2:52 PM EDT |
Note the counterpoint/discussion article here. |
| tuxchick May 01, 2012 3:35 PM EDT |
If you weren't such a bunch of cheapskates, I'd open a tinfoil hat stand in this thread. Canonical gives away Ubuntu, so they're evil. Canonical sells stuff, so they're evil. Never mind the things they actually do, it's what they don't do that makes them evil. But if they did those things they'd be evil too, for over-reaching or being like Microsoft or something. LXerguest, you completely misread my whole article. If you even read it. I never said Ubuntu was the first easy to use distro. And I said I'm sick to death of all the Unity discussion because it's nearly all shallow and stupid. This is why I hate doing Ubuntu reviews. The fanpeeps are all love or hate with little substance. |
| montezuma May 01, 2012 3:43 PM EDT |
Hear hear TC. Don't like Unity well use another desktop! It takes all of 2 minutes on my Ubuntu install. It makes even less sense when you realise how particularly personal desktop preference is. |
| Bob_Robertson May 01, 2012 3:59 PM EDT |
"It makes even less sense when you realise how particularly personal desktop preference is." Say Ramen somebody! |
| lxerguest May 01, 2012 4:21 PM EDT |
@tuxchick,I did read your article,and understood it.You seem like a nice person but you insult peoples' intelligence when you dismiss their concerns as whining or tinfoil hat.As flufferbeer notes,Mint is being rewarded for treating peoples legitimate concerns in a way you would expect from a rational company. The concept of dumping is not a tinfoil hat issue and has real economic consequences,such as market domination. @bob_robertson,I noticed those articles too,but I thought it was my tin hat talking. |
| Fettoosh May 01, 2012 4:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:This is why I hate doing Ubuntu reviews... It's a fine article @TC and it has been due for while. I am glad it was you who finally said it. I have been using Kubuntu for quite a while. Since 8.04, I have been upgrading through all the releases including 12.04 and I haven't had the need to install from scratch. The PPA just worked for me. There were few little issues here and there, but none was a show stopper. Like I said more than once in my posts, in my opinion, Kubuntu is the best overall Distro around. It is not perfect, but nothing is. |
| flufferbeer May 01, 2012 5:12 PM EDT |
"Baboontu", Niceness to primates; humanity towards others....;o I actually remember the time when Ubuntu WAS touted on its website as "humanity towards others". Way back when around the time of Feisty Fawn or Hardy heron IIRC. That's gotten buried away over the years. +1 lxerguest. and I too read tuxchicke's Baboontu article. Worth a grain o' salt certainly, though TC comment above comes out as acid-base reactive and dismissive. So we don't like TC's Baboontu reviews? Well use others. Nobody's making TC write these and nobody's forcing readers to read these. We certainly see no lack of OTHER reviewers. @montezuma, > Don't like Unity well use another desktop! It takes all of 2 minutes on my Ubuntu install. It makes even less sense when you realise how particularly personal desktop preference is. Seems to me this is sorta like Henry Ford of Ford Motor saying you can buy any other color of Ford auto, as long as its black. Unless you're someone who knows how and puts in the time & effort to scrape that default black paint off the car's metal and put on the preferred new coat. Then came other car models, colors and companies. Same with Ubuntu/Baboontu. It makes even less sense to take the Baboontu and LUnity default Kool-Aid sitting down once "you realise how particularly personal desktop preference is", and can just choose use Mint or another 'buntu-based distrofrom the start!! -fb |
| kikinovak May 01, 2012 5:30 PM EDT |
I'm using Debian on both servers, simply because I'm comfortable with it since the days of Potato. I used to rant about Ubuntu for various reasons, when I couldn't get CUPS to share printers with 6.06, or when half the apps had no sound in 8.04, but I've been using it for some time also. But there are many things I actually like about the Ubuntus. On the desktop side, "Linux for all" seems truly accomplished as a goal, because it's really easy to setup. And on the server side, I like their documentation: https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/index.html |
| lxerguest May 01, 2012 6:23 PM EDT |
kikonovak,desktop for all has been achieved - by Ubuntu?Compared to the other debian-based distros?Not trying to doubt you,just trying to understand what you've SPECIFICALLY noticed compared to other debian-BASED distros,not bare debian itself. I agree on the server/embedded decices,Canonical will compete much more agressively than on the desktop.As I said in my first post,the true bug#1 ! ;) |
| Fettoosh May 01, 2012 6:52 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer, If K/Ubuntu wasn't that good, you wouldn't see so many variations based on it. Mind you, I am not saying Canonical deserves all the credit, not at all, Debian deserves a lot more. So Linuxmint builds on top of Ubuntu, and Ubuntu builds on top of Debian, and Debian builds on the top of Linux Kernel & GNU, and those are built from bits and pieces by so many dev. Like @TC said in the article, "A lot of them are Ubuntu derivatives, and that is how it's supposed to work." |
| montezuma May 01, 2012 6:58 PM EDT |
flufferbeer, Not like Henry Ford at all. I installed Cinnamon, MATE, XFCE, KDE, gnome shell, LXDE, Fluxbox very easily by just searching on synaptic and reading a few forum posts. Honestly a near noob could do it. |
| flufferbeer May 01, 2012 11:04 PM EDT |
kickinovak wrote "But there are many things I actually like about the Ubuntus. On the desktop side, "Linux for all" seems truly accomplished as a goal, because it's really easy to setup." It's funny, because that is just about the most One-Size-Fits-All statement we've seen in a while around these parts. That's MUCH too close to Henry Ford's statement about the color black, I think. +1 again to lxerguest. @montezuma, > Not like Henry Ford at all...[further on] Honestly a near noob could do it. I should agree with the first part. Non Baboontu-fanboi users (or "established" reviewers besides just TC) have ZERO problems with recommending alternate distros for n00Bs specifically W/O Baboontu's defaulty LUnity. And comparably NoT like Ford with the required unicolor black. I say Thaaaank Gooodness For That!! Makes it one heck of a whole lot easier for 'em w/o getting waterboarded with the black-like LUnity kool-aid in the first place, and btw, this is EXACTLY like what others (:cough: :cough: caitlyn here) are advocating for on pre-installed n00B desktops from the start. Pre-installs of KDE, Cinnamon, GNOME, MATE, Xfce, LXDE, or the latest MOST SUITABLE one other than crazy LUnity that is! To increase marktshare. Read some more forum posts here and more distributed Baboontu comments elsewhere, for much more info on this ;) -fb |
| kikinovak May 02, 2012 2:03 AM EDT |
You seem to treat this like a boxing match ("That's one in the eye for $USER"). But let me answer your questions. Ubuntu's ambition - at least on the desktop side - is to make Linux easily installable for all. About two years ago, my dad's laptop crashed. He lives 1.500 kilometers away, so I sent him a Ubuntu 10.04 install CD by snail mail and then walked him through the install over the phone. Everything went really easily. Other distributions - like openSUSE - were close second candidates. I chose Ubuntu, for details like setting up proprietary graphic drivers, which is basically one-click in Ubuntu. Other distributions had that ambition as well, of course. Back in 2003, after a couple of years of cutting my teeth on Slackware and Debian, I was a happy Libranet user. Canadian distro, Debian-testing-based, and everything just worked. Unfortunately that fine distro passed away with Jon Danzig, the main developer. I'm a professional Linux consultant, meaning I install Linux networks in schools, town halls, public libraries and small to medium sized companies all over South France. So my needs - more: those of my clients - are specific. The french police force, for example, uses Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, so I went with this - on servers and desktops - for some time. More recently I've been switching back to Debian, because Ubuntu 12.04 wouldn't run anymore on various existing client hardware (with non-PAE processors, lame graphic cards, etc.) whereas Debian would do just fine. Check out the various links on http://www.microlinux.fr where everything is explained. Your mileage probably varies. |
| Bob_Robertson May 02, 2012 8:50 AM EDT |
If I may, one of the arguments I've often seen against Linux adoption was the embarrassment of riches. That it's too hard to choose between so many different "look and feel" options. http://anarchic-order.blogspot.com/2011/02/linuxs-killer-fea... And here is a discussion about constraining users, by offering one default "desktop" style without the choice to change it first, only after. Truly, human beings are fickle. Which leads off to an entire, oft-ruled OT, discussion of its own. :^) This is why there are so many different distributions, a glorious embarrassment of riches. |
| lxerguest May 02, 2012 12:40 PM EDT |
kikinovak and bob,both valid points,easy and uncomplicated is required for a lot of situations.as kikinovak said,that existed in 2003.I also respect the professional's need to depend on a professional organization with stability and longevity.That said I find Canonical to be untrustworthy in their declarations and handled the unity situation less professionally than garage-operation Mint.Not to mention it would be nice if they would give other companies a chance to charge a fair price so they could afford some resources of their own by not dumping and price gouging against other Linux companies. |
| lxerguest May 02, 2012 1:03 PM EDT |
Not to belabor the point,but I believe Red Hat started as a small operation ,who I doubt would have developed as they have if they had to face the dumping environment of today.Who can say what other "Red Hats" we have missed out on,who would now be contributing free software citizens? |
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