True, but...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Nov 07, 2012 2:31 PM EDT |
It is absolutely true that Mr. Ts'o never said "rape is not a problem." Of course, nobody every accused him of that. He then goes on to parse rape into categories, essentially the same incredibly offensive thing he did in the first place. There's this congressman in Missouri named Todd Aiken. He had a huge lead in a Senate race. He then tried to divide "legitimate rape" or "forceable rape" from other types of rape and also made the ridiculous claim that a woman's body can somehow stop a pregnancy if the rape is "legitimate". In a state where his party dominated last night Mr. Aiken didn't just lose, he lost badly. It wasn't close. Mr. Ts'o is saying the same sort of incredibly offensive things. You can't parse rape. Rape is rape. It doesn't matter if people were drunk. If someone says "no" it means "no". If sex was not consensual it is forced by definition. Mr. Ts'o's denial or apology or whatever it is pours fuel on the fire and makes it worse, not better. What Mr. Varghese quotes are statements from Mr. Ts'o that are unconscionable and indefensible. Mr Ts'o is trying to create nuance where there is NONE. Rape is rape is rape, period. |
| jdixon Nov 07, 2012 2:41 PM EDT |
> It doesn't matter if people were drunk. If someone says "no" it means "no". And what if the person is too drunk to say either yes or no? What is it then? Can they still claim it was rape in the morning since they didn't say yes? I'm not disagreeing with you, but you don't seem to cover that case above. And if people of both sexes are to be believed, it's a fairly common case. So I'd like to know your opinion on the matter. |
| caitlyn Nov 07, 2012 3:04 PM EDT |
First, you seem to be forgetting that men can be raped. It a man is forcibly sodomized what else would you call it? Second, if someone doesn't object to sex it's consensual. If they object it isn't. Is that so hard to understand? Third, Mr. Ts'o (and Mr. Aiken) parsed on the idea of forcible rape. Statutory rape (sex with a minor) is still rape. When sex is coerced it's still rape. The problem is that you cannot parse rape and ANY time someone tries to it is extremely problematic at best and generally offensive to the victims. |
| caitlyn Nov 07, 2012 3:24 PM EDT |
I'd like to add, much to my pleasant surprise, that Sam Varghese has done a fantastic job of covering this story in a factual, non-sensational manner. Kudos to him. |
| jdixon Nov 07, 2012 3:30 PM EDT |
> First, you seem to be forgetting that men can be raped. No, I'm not. That's why I didn't use genders in my question. > Second, if someone doesn't object to sex it's consensual. That answers my question. Thanks. > Third, Mr. Ts'o... I'm doing my best to stay out of that discussion, as I have nothing useful to add to it. I merely wanted your opinion on that specific case. I appreciate that you gave it. |
| gus3 Nov 07, 2012 3:45 PM EDT |
Rape is rape. But, the accusation is not the same as a guilty verdict, something Mike Nifong tried to deny, even at the cost of his career. I'm just glad Matthew Garrett has stated his rationale, conclusion, and resulting expectations, and done so with a minimum of emotion. Something tells me Ts'o's days as a kernel dev are numbered. |
| caitlyn Nov 07, 2012 5:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Something tells me Ts'o's days as a kernel dev are numbered.I wouldn't shed any tears if that happened. I'm also not holding my breath. If the comments on Sam Varghese's two articles there is a very significant number of men ready to defend Ts'o. As Valerie Aurora made clear the percentage of women in FOSS Is just 2%. Yes, a lot of men really do get it. A frightening number just don't. |
| tuxchick Nov 07, 2012 6:15 PM EDT |
I'd rather Ts'o, and the many who think like him, would wise up. This is difficult only for people who prefer to cling to denial. Matthew Garrett explained in his original blog post where Ts'o went wrong (derailing, using bogus references for his numbers, loony rationalizations), as did several people in the original mailing list thread. Ts'o's typical non-apology is typical bunkum. He's still defending his indefensible comments. Granted, Garrett threw a big fat public firebomb, which pretty much guarantees a defensive response.Quoting: Second, if someone doesn't object to sex it's consensual. Caitlyn, that's a little too close to Aiken and other great thinkers who keep coming up with inventive ways to blame victims. Children and people who are terrified, to give just two examples, may not explicitly say no, and may say yes. So how about we quit the what-is-really-rape game? Especially when the original topic was what can Linux conferences do to be more welcoming and attractive to women? Ts'o knows! Tell women we don't know anything about rape, abuse, or harassment, and invent stupid scenarios proving we're wrong! Remember his final solution? He is seriously messed up. |
| jdixon Nov 07, 2012 6:26 PM EDT |
> Caitlyn, that's a little too close to Aiken... Her comment was in response to my question TC, and has a specific context. Two adults who get too drunk for one or both to be able to say yes or no. A situation which happens, to both sexes, all the time. Or at least so I'm told by otherwise reliable sources. I can't speak from personal experience. |
| caitlyn Nov 07, 2012 7:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:Caitlyn, that's a little too close to Aiken and other great thinkers who keep coming up with inventive ways to blame victims. Children and people who are terrified, to give just two examples, may not explicitly say no, and may say yes. So how about we quit the what-is-really-rape game? You seem to have missed a good chunk of that post where I said exactly what you are saying in no uncertain terms: Quoting:Third, Mr. Ts'o (and Mr. Aiken) parsed on the idea of forcible rape. Statutory rape (sex with a minor) is still rape. When sex is coerced it's still rape. The problem is that you cannot parse rape and ANY time someone tries to it is extremely problematic at best and generally offensive to the victims.That immediately follows the bit you quoted. If you took the part you quoted all by its lonesome it reads pretty much the opposite of what the full post reads. I also think you missed the previous post of mine which puts this in context: Quoting:There's this congressman in Missouri named Todd Aiken. He had a huge lead in a Senate race. He then tried to divide "legitimate rape" or "forceable rape" from other types of rape and also made the ridiculous claim that a woman's body can somehow stop a pregnancy if the rape is "legitimate". In a state where his party dominated last night Mr. Aiken didn't just lose, he lost badly. It wasn't close.Again, I'm unequivocal about this. Rape is rape. You can't parse it. You can't break it into categories. There is ho such thing as legitimate or less than legitimate. |
| tuxchick Nov 07, 2012 8:32 PM EDT |
Oh, sorry guys, I did miss the context. I got derailed once again, so to get back on track-- the point of the whole discussion in the first place was how to make Linux conferences more attractive to women? Maybe it would help to think of it as demographics and marketing. So the nice conference organizers ask "What can we do to entice you to come to our conferences, and enjoy the presentations, and visit the vendors, and spend lots of money, and say nice things about it afterwards?" And then they get answers like cover these topics, and highlight these vendors, and more women speakers, and more vendor parties, and no booth babes or sexy stuff in presentations. Keep the presentations professional and G-rated, and have clear policies and procedures, and ready assistance for anyone needing help with resolving a problem. The specifics differ, but that's usually how it goes. And then, as often as not, it turns into a big brawl because people like Ts'o and Woodhouse take it personally, like it's all about stepping on their toes, and then they go off on these insane rape tangents and similar crazy stuff trying to prove...at this point I'm not even sure what, other than Woodhouse and Ts'o are somehow victimized by what amounts to "make it interesting, fun, and safe, and act like you really want me for a customer." Ts'o is an events organizer for the Linux Foundation, which is rather mind-boggling. |
| dinotrac Nov 07, 2012 10:31 PM EDT |
@tc - Ts'o is taking it personally? Lots of that going around. I still haven't figured out how he owns Todd Aiken's transgressions, but I think it has something to do with taking things personally. The reality is that no means no, and I haven't heard anybody in this discussion -- including Ts'o -- dispute that. Not that it matters, apparently. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 07, 2012 11:59 PM EDT |
Aiken? Please! Where does that even come from? I'd say that comparing Theodore Tso's position to Todd Aiken's is pretty egregiously offensive, too. Tso may have goofed, and not have properly appreciated the social/political context in which he was participating, and his remarks may have, in some quarters, been interpreted (in my opinion wrongly) as an attempt to diminish the magnitude or significance of the problem. Tso was questioning the rather debatable "statistics" tossed casually about in the discussion, and also the fluidly vague definitions, and appealing for a little more reality (and yes, I can see that some would, rightly or wrongly, see this as some sort of denial). But the Right Dis-Honourable Representative Todd Aiken was basically saying that if a rape resulted in a pregnancy, then it wasn't really (couldn't be) rape -- because otherwise the woman wouldn't have gotten pregnant from it. And further claiming this was somehow a "scientific" observation. I think that attempting to present these two cases as remotely comparable shows pretty clearly that the "offended" side is also at fault in this ugly little skirmish. I don't even see why this issue went active again just now. Maybe it's spill-over from the American election, but this smells more like politics than like socially progressive activism. |
| dinotrac Nov 08, 2012 12:10 PM EDT |
@BS -- Yup, and too bad, too. There is a lot of room for enlightenment on this topic, but knee-jerk reactions are the enemy of enlightenment. The end result is that women are placed needlessly at risk. |
| caitlyn Nov 08, 2012 9:14 PM EDT |
Ts'o essentially said exactly what Todd Aiken said, minus the ridiculous part about a woman's body being able to automatically ward off pregnancy. Ts'o most certainly did say t hings which amount to "no" not necessarily being no, for example, if both people are drunk. If a woman says "no" after drinking in Mr. Ts'o's little world it isn't "no" anymore.
Quoting:"Similarly, the causes behind what US law enforcements agencies term 'forcible rape' are quite different from what happens when both parties get drunk and then engage in what by definition is sex without consent. I don't believe that it is useful to conflate both of these cases into a single term, or worse, have discussions where people arbitrarily switch back and forth between a broader and a more narrow definition of the term when it suits their rhetorical needs."So, Ts'o is saying sex without consent shouldn't be treated the same as other rapes if the parties were drunk. That's parsing rape into categories just the way Rep. Aiken did. In other places Ts'o found other rapes that shouldn't really be treated as rape. So, yeah, dinotrac, I am definitely disputing your claim that Mr. Ts'o didn't say no means no. He did, just using other words. Oh, and thanks, BernardSwiss, for blaming the victim and claiming it's all politics. If you wanted me to lose respect for you well... you're succeeding. |
| slacker_mike Nov 08, 2012 10:41 PM EDT |
First off let me also give Sam Varghese kudos for covering this story in a very matter of fact manner. Second, it is sad to see people treating a topic like rape so casually with the same tired arguments. I have lost all respect for Ted Tso and his non-apology was really sad. It shows a great lack of empathy, common sense, and manners from a otherwise very intelligent man. Kudos to Mathew Garrett for casting a light on this issue. |
| Ridcully Nov 08, 2012 10:51 PM EDT |
I have said all I want to say personally about this matter. However if anybody wants to look at the opinions of a different group on another website, here you are: http://www.linuxtoday.com/upload/garrett-slams-tso-as-rape-a... You will note that there is a distinctly different theme emerging on this thread, and in fact suggestions that Tso has been so badly wronged by Garrett and Valerie that libel action by Tso is a possible option. |
| tuxchick Nov 08, 2012 10:58 PM EDT |
The comment section on LT is hardly a reliable source for impartial analysis and sound legal opinions. Thanks slacker_mike, it is sad. |
| Ridcully Nov 08, 2012 11:06 PM EDT |
Tuxchick, I rarely if ever disagree with you on Linux, but on this I will. I would not dare to make the statement you just made above in which you have set yourself up as the judge of other's probity. Their opinions are just as valid as any opinion on this page, and that is all they are - opinions. |
| caitlyn Nov 09, 2012 11:41 AM EDT |
I'm with tuxchick and slacker_mike on this. What we are seeing on Linux Today is a prime example of why IT in general and FOSS in particular are generally seen by women as incredibly hostile environments. The casual dismissal of rape, the attempts to blame the victims and to vilify Valerie Aurora, the attempts to ascribe political motivations... it all sickens me to my core. Is it any wonder women have fled IT in droves in recent year? Me... well, I'll fight on. I'll have an article this weekend that I'm sure those folks on LT won't like one little bit. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2012 12:20 PM EDT |
@caitlyn -- You are free to dispute me, but the passage you quote can, at best, be read to imply that T'so might think that. I read it differently, to mean that people sometimes get drunk and do things they wish they wouldn't. In such a case there is no formal, "Yes, I agree to the terms of your proposal and will therefore have sex with you." Even in such a case, "No" should still mean no. If T'so doesn't agree with that, then he's just plain wrong. That doesn't make it smart for college girls to put themselves in a vulnerable position by getting blasted and getting off alone with somebody they barely know, but it's still rape if they say no. |
| caitlyn Nov 09, 2012 12:48 PM EDT |
Yes, young women (and older women for that matter) do stupid things. That NEVER justifies rape. As for Mr. Ts'o, yes, he dances around issues all over the place. However, taken as a whole, I don't see how his comments cound be interpreted any differently from the way Matthew Garrett or Valerie Aurora or Carla or Tracyanne or I see it. I am also frequently amazed how insensitive so many men are to an issue that, to most women, are so very disturbing. While men can be raped, this remains a crime that is mostly perpetrated by men and the victims are mostly women. Still, you'd think that most decent men would understand intellectually if not emotionally how traumatic rape is and what it means to a women to be violated. This circling of the wagons around Mr. Ts'o and the rush to defend him really, really, really bothers me. |
| caitlyn Nov 09, 2012 1:36 PM EDT |
I've submitted a rather long comment to LT. We'll see if it's published and what kind of a response it receives. Let's just say I'm not hopeful. |
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