A taste of honey...Well done Ken
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully May 06, 2013 5:16 PM EDT |
An old acquaintance of mine always said: "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". He was dead right. My experiences (as an ex-head of a high school science department) are that teachers in general suffer from three fundamental problems: first, personal ignorance as to the better options that are open to them; second, considerable reluctance to step outside their learned/indoctrinated/regulated comfort zones; and third, the Microsoft trained and biased "moles" in high level government committees who prescribe Redmond software options for the Education Departments under the assumption that there is no universe outside of the Windows solar system. Put all of those together and it's like running into a brick wall head on, but just occasionally, and happily, there's a win and this one is a "biggie". Very well done Ken, a soft approach really got results, and so yet another educator has seen the brilliant light that shines outside the dark prison room of Windows. |
| gary_newell May 07, 2013 7:11 AM EDT |
My son's school still has internet explorer 6. The school basically has to connect to a council network for all it's applications. It is basically a Citrix farm. On that farm the only internet browser option is IE6. At home I try and encourage the use of other browsers but my son insists that Internet Explorer is the best because it is the one they use at school. The argument I use against him is "Are the school dinners the best meals you have ever had?" He still uses Internet Explorer at home. Even my technophobe wife has got used to Chrome. |
| Bob_Robertson May 07, 2013 8:48 AM EDT |
"Your child belongs to us already. What are you? You will pass on." |
| Fettoosh May 07, 2013 3:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:first, personal ignorance as to the better options that are open to them; second, considerable reluctance to step outside their learned/indoctrinated/regulated comfort zones; @Ridcully, Very important observation and I strongly agree, but I humbly disagree about which is more important. I think your second should be first. If teachers were willing to step outside their comfort zone, they wouldn't be ignorant about many many things. Educators ought to teach students how to explore and seek knowledge not just to apply what they are taught. Stepping out of ones comfort zone is most effective against ignorance. If teachers don't have it, chances are student won't. |
| Jeff91 May 07, 2013 5:04 PM EDT |
The problem is thoroughly inbred at this point (like most technology places still using MS software). As someone who did a "teacher education" program during my undergraduate studies - I can tell you the only desktop software we were "taught" in four years were all MS Office products. Most teachers aren't what I would call "computer people". They use what they are taught and if it even marginally works - they leave well enough alone most times. Just like most people use Windows because it comes with their PC and works well enough, most of the time. It is the sad truth. ~Jeff |
| BernardSwiss May 07, 2013 7:28 PM EDT |
To be fair, teachers work in a rather heavily "politicized" environment -- in both the "office politics" sense" and the "City Hall" and state politics senses. Even before the parents get involved. And there's all too many people in the system, who sometimes in ignorance and sometimes not, sometimes for honest motives, and sometimes just a need to exercise authority, will target anyone and any decision that they don't care for (and if it's something that got going without their approval afore-hand (and it's not always the bureaucrats higher up the chain who throw procedural sand in the cogs). In such environments, any change at all often seems to be worth avoiding. And the longer a teacher or official has been in the system, the more thoroughly they are trained to "not make waves". Some individuals have both the drive and the insight and political skills to effect meaningful change against the systems inertia, without burning out or being kicked out -- but there's not that many of them. Of course, school workplace environments can vary widely. Some are more receptive to change, rather than seeing changes as a challenge to authority. A few actually even welcome change -- but that's not generally the way to bet.. The retention rate for new teachers is quite low -- and it's not necessarily dealing with the students that's responsible for this. |
| henke54 May 10, 2013 9:32 AM EDT |
Some other comments on this article : http://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=61... |
| jdixon May 10, 2013 11:09 AM EDT |
> To be fair, teachers work in a rather heavily "politicized" environment Which is one of the reasons I say education is too important to be left in the hands of the government. Anything run by the government becomes a heavily politicized environment. |
| Fettoosh May 10, 2013 1:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:Anything run by the government becomes a heavily politicized environment. I am not in favor of big government, but it is also fair to mention that anything run by private sector leads to ignoring any national interest and concentrate on making money. Supply and demand doesn't work any more due to absolute necessity of some services & products that leads to the formations of curtals. |
| jdixon May 10, 2013 2:11 PM EDT |
> ...but it is also fair to mention that anything run by private sector leads to ignoring any national interest and concentrate on making money. Government run and private business run aren't the only options out there. Education, in the end, is the responsibility of the parents. If they're not capable of handling it themselves, they need to find someone who can. The government shouldn't be their only option. |
| Bob_Robertson May 10, 2013 2:11 PM EDT |
> I am not in favor of big government, but it is also fair to mention that anything run by private sector leads to ignoring any national interest and concentrate on making money. Which is only true in a monopoly situation. Not one of competition. > that leads to the formations of curtals. Cartels are another hobgoblin, created to frighten people into giving up their liberty. For all the incentives that lead someone to join a cartel, also lead to breaking the cartel. If you're interested, please see chapter 10 of Man, Economy, and State, by Murray Rothbard. Online gratis, http://mises.org/rothbard/mes.asp > ignoring any national interest Non-sequitur. Education is about learning, a personal journey by the student. There is no "national interest" in education. Horace Mann addressed the "national interest" in his writings on SCHOOLING, which I recommend to anyone interested in the subject. Education and schooling have little or nothing to do with each other. |
| DrGeoffrey May 10, 2013 2:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:> To be fair, teachers work in a rather heavily "politicized" environment Obviously spoken by someone who has never been to a private school. |
| jdixon May 10, 2013 2:58 PM EDT |
> Obviously spoken by someone who has never been to a private school. Do you have any idea how closely private schools are controlled by the government? They're effectively private government contractors. |
| Bob_Robertson May 10, 2013 3:48 PM EDT |
> They're effectively private government contractors. This problem is exacerbated anywhere that "vouchers" have been implemented, with predictable results. The private schools continue to exceed the public in every academic measure. Likely because they are not wholely restricted to the "national interest". One private school I had truck with was, sadly, entirely wedded to Windows, but used OpenOffice for fiscal reasons. |
| DrGeoffrey May 10, 2013 4:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:The private schools continue to exceed the public in every academic measure. Likely because they are not wholely restricted to the "national interest". Another favorite canard supported only by carefully selected samples. |
| jdixon May 10, 2013 5:14 PM EDT |
> Another favorite canard supported only by carefully selected samples. Do you have a source for appropriate samples? I'd be interested in seeing them. The statistics I've seen back up the statement, but I'm willing to consider evidence that they may be wrong. And a quick Google search followed by attempts to eliminate obviously biased sources (CAPE and education.com, for instance) gave a 2 to 1 advantage to articles saying private schools outperformed public ones. Even the one who argued otherwise had to claim socioeconomic factors were responsible for the difference. |
| BernardSwiss May 10, 2013 7:58 PM EDT |
Part of my point was that the school/classroom tends to be a highly politicized environment, even aside from any government involvement. Public schools, private schools -- makes little difference. Getting away from the government bureaucracy merely swaps some of the politics for another kind of "more of the same". (heck, even with home schooling) |
| Ridcully May 10, 2013 8:09 PM EDT |
I support jdixon's contention here in Queensland. The top marks in the state for assessment last year in the examinations leading to university were taken by a very prestigious and private Brisbane grammar school run exclusively for boys. Those results have just been released this week in the daily press. BernardSwiss, I am not sure you actually can politicise those classrooms at that private grammar school. Certainly they must teach the state approved curriculum contents, but how they teach them is up to the school, and the curriculum is essentially educational content and apolitical. My tentative feelings are that the parents would be outraged if politics of any sort entered the private school classroom - it just would not be acceptable under any circumstances. My other perceptions are that private school teachers tend to hold themselves a little more aloof from the squabbles that pervade the spaces of the public school teachers. Again, this is only how I see it here in Queensland. |
| jdixon May 10, 2013 8:44 PM EDT |
> Getting away from the government bureaucracy merely swaps some of the politics for another kind of "more of the same". To a degree, that's true of any organized human activity. Groups of people find it hard to operate without a structure, and that structure inevitably includes politics. However, I would argue that both governmental politics and its one size fits all approach to things tend to be very disruptive of an activity such as learning, which by it's very nature is extremely individualized. Far more so than the bureaucratic structures of businesses and small organizations. Especially when such politics and approaches originate from the highest levels of government rather than local ones. Simply put, in education, one size fits all does not work; and yet that's what government involvement inevitably gives you. |
| Ridcully May 10, 2013 9:39 PM EDT |
Very well said in the last line jdixon.......and that, unfortunately, is what is being forced (if it can) by the present Australian Federal Parliament. Diversity of educational curricula (with our states all "doing their own thing") produces innovation, lateral thinking, progess; regimentation, to my mind, produces the opposite effects. |
| Fettoosh May 11, 2013 10:23 AM EDT |
Hmmm, I wonder how come other countries where education from baby sitting to higher education are doing so well even though they are administered by government? Ex. Most of Europe, far east, and even in the Middle East. The US has been importing their engineers and professionals and for a long time. Edited: I believe there are many factors other than government control that influence education. |
| jdixon May 11, 2013 3:18 PM EDT |
> I wonder how come other countries where education from baby sitting to higher education are doing so well even though they are administered by government? Most governments don't try to educate the entire population. If you start with a preselected set, you usually achieve better results. You also achieve better results if you have a relatively homogenous population. > The US has been importing their engineers and professionals and for a long time. There are other factors at work in that besides education. > I believe there are many factors other than government control that influence education. Yes. But centralized government control almost uniformly makes it worse. This is true even when it's at the state level. It's much worse when it's at the federal level. |
| Fettoosh May 11, 2013 5:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:Most governments don't try to educate the entire population. True, but the selection process is a very natural one. It is based on "Survival of the fittest" not for those who has the money to afford it. Government supports those that are fit to accomplish. I don't see any problem with that. Quoting:You also achieve better results if you have a relatively homogenous population. I don't agree with that. Is there evidence? Quoting:But centralized government control almost uniformly makes it worse. I agree with that and it is why I prefer local administration of schools. Quoting:This is true even when it's at the state level. Local governments are elected by us and consequently people have power over them. If they are not doing their jobs, they shouldn't be elected again. Like you said, it all boils down to the parents. Not necessary to educate their children, but take interest and make right decisions. |
| alc May 11, 2013 6:08 PM EDT |
"Like you said, it all boils down to the parents. Not necessary to educate their children, but take interest and make right decisions." I would add: to help educate their children. Otherwise, that really says it. |
| jdixon May 11, 2013 10:53 PM EDT |
> True, but the selection process is a very natural one The selection process is immaterial. We don't do it. We try to educate everyone. We may not succeed, but we try. Thus, comparisons to most other countries are apples to oranges. > I don't agree with that. Is there evidence? The very studies which rate homogenous population countries above the US in the rankings. It should be obvious that one size fits all works a lot better when you're dealing with a group which has a lot in common. > Local governments are elected by us and consequently people have power over them. Most people don't consider state level governments to be "local", except in comparison to the federal government. :) I agree that if you must have public schools, it's best to run them at the county, city, and town level. > Like you said, it all boils down to the parents. I'm glad we can agree on that point. |
| Bob_Robertson May 13, 2013 9:40 AM EDT |
> Most people don't consider state level governments to be "local", except in comparison to the federal government. It's also often beyond the ability of a European to grasp that most of the individual states in the United States are larger than any country in Europe. > Like you said, it all boils down to the parents. Regardless of school, that is true. Back in the 1970s and 80s, there was an influx of Asian immigration to the US. They became parents, and drove their now American children to be educated. This lead to a phenomenon where the Asian kids were "ruining the curve", in that their performance was so much better that what used to qualify as an "A" grade now wasn't worth a "B". There was a LOT of resentment. The parents were, effectively, home-schooling their kids and getting the same kind of excellent results. Not to worry, the institutional lethargy took over in the following generations, just as it did with all the other immigrant influxes into the great Melting Pot, and educational standards for second generation kids in the public schools dropped back to normal. Public school bureaucracies do not like parental involvement beyond their PTA committee levels. It interferes with the indoctrination. |
| DrGeoffrey May 13, 2013 11:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:Public school bureaucracies do not like parental involvement beyond their PTA committee levels. It interferes with the indoctrination. On this point I cannot disagree. However, I would add that the same is not true of the teachers. |
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