First step in the right direction
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| linux4567 Nov 29, 2014 10:23 AM EDT |
I hope this fork will gain traction and become a success (with major derivatives of Debian like Mint eventually switching over to Devuan) as this is the last chance for the real open source community (i.e. all those people working on FOSS software purely for fun in their spare time, not corporations) to take control of Linux back from the claws of Red Hat. |
| cmost Nov 29, 2014 1:15 PM EDT |
@ linux45678 Ah yes, because another fork is what Linux needs right now. There are so many forks that FOSS is starting to resemble a cutlery drawer. Frankly, when my distribution (Sabayon) switched to Systemd, I didn't even notice other than that the system booted up much faster than before. I suspect most regular users don't care either so long as things just work. The entire systemd vs. sysVinit is nothing but a storm in a teacup waged by l33t developers. What these developers need to do when they disagree is learn to compromise and come up with a solution greater than the sum of its parts (e.g., what's good and bad about sysVinit versus systemd, can we make the best of both worlds?), not throw a tantrum and take their ball and go home. Debian is one of the founding Linux distributions and is the parent to countless child distributions and derivatives, it isn't going anywhere and I suspect Devuan will be just another flash in the pan. And for the record, Linux Mint (e.g., Ubuntu) uses Upstart, not systemd or sysVinit. |
| linux4567 Nov 29, 2014 5:13 PM EDT |
Oh dear we have another pro-systemd troll on LXer... You don't seem to realise that this is about Red Hat trying to gain total control of Linux? If we let this happen without putting up a fight Red Hat will slowly but surely become another Microsoft and then even you will realise that Linux isn't a free community system anymore. You might just as well use Windows with your non-caring attitude. |
| theBeez Nov 29, 2014 5:37 PM EDT |
@linux4567 - Yeah, systemd minions are everywhere. If the architecture behind systemd had been as well considered as their PR plan, we wouldn't have this problem. Unfortunately, Red Hat is becoming like an evil empire more and more every day, spending 90% on publicity and 10% on the product - and it shows. But it's easy to turn around: invest in Devuan and don't use systemd privately or professionally. |
| gus3 Nov 29, 2014 5:55 PM EDT |
(To "O Christmas Tree":) No systemd, no systemd, The feature-creep's too much for me. No systemd, no systemd, It's not Unix philosophy. The program wrecks the process tree, The old way's satisfactory. No systemd, no systemd, I'll take SysV or BSD! |
| cmost Nov 30, 2014 12:19 PM EDT |
I'm not trolling because I honestly don't care one way or the other. Also, I'm not a systemd "minion" because as I clearly stated, I simply use what my distribution pushed out. As for systemd having feature creep and a philosophy that's non UNIX. Well here's a surprise, Linux isn't Unix. Canonical also has done all sorts of shady stuff over the years that would seem to go in the face of the FOSS philosophy, in fact it created its own init system called Upstart, a new display server called Mir and its own desktop environment Unity and yet it remains one of the most popular Linux distributions. That's because most of its users are not l33t hackers and are not interested in the politics behind the scenes. I'm also just a regular old ordinary Linux user with an interest in tech. I've used Linux and FOSS for 12 years now exclusively on all of my computers and servers. I also do a lot of reading of tech articles all across the web. That being said, I would like for you to explain to me exactly how Red Hat would get total control over Linux if systemd is widely adopted across Linux distributions. I ask, because your post is the first I've ever heard of such a claim. Maybe the pro sysVinit folks should take a page out of Red Hat's play book and up the PR against systemd because otherwise ordinary users like me will simply continue going happily along with whatever our distributions choose for us without questioning. |
| me1010 Nov 30, 2014 1:16 PM EDT |
@cmost: I'm on your side, but you will never win the argument. The next anti-systemd post will probably try to chide you for being a paid RH shill. It's OK... but time to drop the subject before blah... blah... ad hominem... blah... blah... RH is evil, just like Microsoft... blah... blah... fork Debian FTW! ... blah... blah... you just don't get it... blah... blah... I'll stay out as much as possible -- but --- for the anti-systemd crowd: Quoting: Please check with sources before posting incorrect information. |
| theBeez Nov 30, 2014 1:19 PM EDT |
Oh, how foolhearty, this cmost. "Ignorance is bliss" (1984, Orwell). "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves" (Lincoln). "Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance" (JFK). Don't they teach you anything in these (probably American) schools? E.g. to think for yourself? |
| linux4567 Nov 30, 2014 1:32 PM EDT |
@cmost: if you really didn't care then you wouldn't be even posting about systemd. And surprise surprise we have me1010 rushing in to support you. I wonder whether these are just multiple accounts owned by the same person... I already had that suspicion in one of the other systemd threads, that me1010 was posting with at least 2 accounts... |
| me1010 Nov 30, 2014 1:46 PM EDT |
@linux4567: Of course I am! And I'm being paid by RH, Microsoft, and probably even Al Gore to support systemd. In truth --- some people are just not going to care that much about whether systemd: 1. adheres to someone else's idea of what *nix like things should or should not be. 2. has too big of a scope. 3. requires a bit of learning to use effectively. And -- some people do care... alot So... you care alot... that's fine... just... Quoting:Please check sources before posting incorrect information. |
| flufferbeer Nov 30, 2014 3:14 PM EDT |
@linux[4-7],Quoting:@cmost: if you really didn't care then you wouldn't be even posting about systemd. I ALSO think this adamantly pro-systemd TROLL is back at it again. Clearly notice his agressively quoting "Please check sources before posting incorrect information" as part of a Passive-Aggressivecampaign to nip in the bud and pick off as many peeps as possible who are open-mindedly considering alternatives (Duvian's here) to his dear cancerous systemd! Watch him strike back yet again real soon with the SAME re-quote. Wait for it, here it comes..... 2c |
| me1010 Nov 30, 2014 3:38 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer: I'm simply a stickler for smart people propagating incorrect information... especially incorrect information that is clearly in the realm of confirmation bias. So, I will call it out if I see it... and remind those posting to: Quoting:Please check sources before posting incorrect information. Of course, I welcome the same for my posts. I'm as prone to anyone of posting wild theories that are clearly wrong to any reasonable disinterested party. |
| cmost Nov 30, 2014 5:50 PM EDT |
@ theBeez "Oh, how foolhearty, this cmost. "Ignorance is bliss" (1984, Orwell). "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves" (Lincoln). "Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance" (JFK). Don't they teach you anything in these (probably American) schools? E.g. to think for yourself?" Your comment is rather bizarre because you're implying that any rally cry against systemd is tantamount to a national revolution. In fact, I do think for myself and I do question everything, which is why I made my original comment. And, I'm not arguing for or against systemd; I only use it because that's what my distribution pushed out and frankly, I just don't see a problem. While all of you seem very passionate in your anti systemd prose, not one of you has yet explained to me WHY it is so evil and how Red Hat will gain total control of Linux as a result of systemd adoption. Please someone enlighten me with some actual facts and data. Thanks! |
| flufferbeer Nov 30, 2014 6:01 PM EDT |
Now HERE's a comment quote I think it's worthwhile repeating
Quoting:(To "O Christmas Tree":) Thanks gus3..... +1 * many more! 2 more c's |
| theBeez Nov 30, 2014 7:09 PM EDT |
@cmost - I don't see how you can consolidate "thinking for youself" and blindly follow anything your great wise leader has "selected for you as an init system". You "question everyting" and then "see no problem"? Well, I'm not sure you got it in you, but please try again! |
| cmost Nov 30, 2014 7:29 PM EDT |
@ theBeez Your post is idiotic because you're just spouting rhetoric. Again, please explain the problem. I'm all ears. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 30, 2014 9:08 PM EDT |
The problems with Upstart weren't about whether it was "unix-y", but about Canonical's licensing requirements. I groused a bit to myself about having to learn a new init system -- but when I looked into it the logic was sound, it made sense, and offered clear benefits, so I accepted it. (And funnily enough, those license requirements were what hobbled it into a slow decline and inability to compete effectively against systemd). The problems with Mir and Wayland were about whether they were going to be unix-y in certain respects, and some nasty gamesmanship between the competing projects (I'm not going to get specific, but one side was mostly responsible for that). As it became clear that some important principles would be observed and certain functionality would remain accessible, the debate died down into a "we'll keep an eye on it, but it looks like it's going to be OK (Wayland, at least -- I'm not sure any more about Mir). Systemd is a different kind of a mess -- it's seen as a fundamentally bad design decision, that even worse, insinuates itself into components and processes outside its proper scope, in a way that make the OS needlessly complex (under the guise of cleaning up complexity, yet) more fragile, harder to troubleshoot, etc, etc. It's like all those "user-friendly" features we've seen elsewhere, that supposedly make life easier for the user, but end up being a major source of problems, themselves. On top of that, the interlocking nature of some dev programs / projects (eg. most obviously, Gnome) is resulting in the effective binding of large swathes of supposedly independent code and components to systemd, that makes it arbitrarily difficult for those who want to stay clear of this design framework, to actually do so. (In sites and forums for various distros, there have been many admissions that the distro is "switching" to systemd, simply because the effort (time and man-power) makes it impractical to do anything else, regardless of whether they think it's a good direction.) Devuan is a concrete demonstration of how different this mess is from earlier "tempests in teapots". Experienced long-timers aren't just complaining and bitching; they're actually trying to fork one of the very biggest FOSS projects out there -- this is bigger than when xfree86 forked to Xorg. |
| vainrveenr Nov 30, 2014 10:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:Systemd is a different kind of a mess -- it's seen as a fundamentally bad design decision, that even worse, insinuates itself into components and processes outside its proper scope, in a way that make the OS needlessly complex (under the guise of cleaning up complexity, yet) more fragile, harder to troubleshoot, etc, etc. It's like all those "user-friendly" features we've seen elsewhere, that supposedly make life easier for the user, but end up being a major source of problems, themselves. Perhaps this Devuan forking possibility is also an immensely viable response to repeated calls for action by the very systemd advocates themselves; calls for action such as those at 'Don't boycott systemd', found at http://dontboycottsystemd.org/ Quoting:Do something productive |
| jdixon Nov 30, 2014 11:33 PM EDT |
> In truth --- some people are just not going to care that much about whether systemd: In truth, most people are going to continue using Windows and the majority of those who dare step outside that circle will use a Mac. > So... you care alot... that's fine... If I didn't, I'd be using Windows. Since I do, I use Slackware. Now, what distro was it that was holding out against systemd again? Hmm, I may have to thing about that for a few minutes.... |
| Bdragon Dec 01, 2014 8:09 AM EDT |
In response to the authors of dontboycottsystemd.org. I did do something! I did something productive that made me a better tech and more knowledgeable system admin. I did something that is going to save the small company I work for money. I spent four weeks in a crash course to familiarize myself with BSD. Then in a phased transition I switched the eight servers I am responsible for over to FreeBSD. There problem solved, no need to continue complaining and belly aching about the issue. Don't know about everyone else but I am moving on. |
| linux4567 Dec 01, 2014 4:32 PM EDT |
@Bdragon: well done, I agree that FreeBSD (or any other BSD flavour) is a good alternative for servers, but sadly for desktops it has much more limited hardware support than Linux, which is why we can't just all switch over and leave Linux in the foolish hands of Red Hat. |
| skelband Dec 01, 2014 5:36 PM EDT |
I donated some cash to the effort. I suggest other do likewise if they feel strongly about it. > Ah yes, because another fork is what Linux needs right now. There are thousands of forks of various kinds. What's one more? You do realise that that's how free software works don't you or do you have a problem with choice? It's the evolutionary model. It's how we move forward. |
| flufferbeer Dec 01, 2014 10:24 PM EDT |
@skelband, >> There are thousands of forks of various kinds. What's one more? You do realise that that's how free software works don't you or do you have a problem with choice? It's the evolutionary model. It's how we move forward. I also think ONE PARTICULAR PERSON here is in denial about any problems with free choice in using systemd! Just take a look at the non-programmer's hypothesis thread and notice Henry Ford's infamous "free choice" quote highlightd as it applies to systemd: "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black." GREAT point! ...and what follows again and again is our TROLL's continuous distraction tactics and adamant denials about systemd's shortfalls. Good grief! @@::rollingeyes:: 2 more c's |
| skelband Dec 02, 2014 1:30 AM EDT |
Got an update to the systemd package on my Linut Mint 17. I don't know why but I was interested to look at the Changelog. Case in point: systemd (204-5ubuntu20.9) trusty; urgency=medium * Pull latest keymaps from trunk, as per standing microrelease exception. Amongst others, this also fixes the "micmute" key on Dell Latitudes. (LP: #1339998) Erm, micmute on Dell latitudes? Seriously. Mind, this isn't one of the "optional" additional libraries which you could opt to not use, it is systemd itself. |
| JaseP Dec 02, 2014 2:35 AM EDT |
Quoting: Erm, micmute on Dell latitudes? Seriously. Mind, this isn't one of the "optional" additional libraries which you could opt to not use, it is systemd itself. I'd be just guessing, but,... Based on systemd merging with udev, that this fix might probably be a udev fix... If not,... It's a definite WTF moment... |
| frankiej Dec 02, 2014 8:49 AM EDT |
Quoting: I'd be just guessing, but,... Based on systemd merging with udev, that this fix might probably be a udev fix... If not,... It's a definite WTF moment...I believe you are correct. Poking around it looks like udev handles keymaps for devices. Then I came across this commit which may or may not be the same one Ubuntu is referring to in their changelog, but it certainly does point to udev as you guessed. |
| number6x Dec 02, 2014 11:08 AM EDT |
Linux Mint doesn't really use systemd in its vanilla form. It has software called the systemd shim that acts as a go between between systemd dependent software and whatever init system the distro uses. From the package description: "This package emulates the systemd function that are required to run the systemd helpers without using the init service" It does ship with many of the systemd libraries |
| theBeez Dec 03, 2014 8:15 AM EDT |
@ cmost Pointing out flawed argumentation and reasoning is hardly rhetoric. |
| Ridcully Dec 03, 2014 8:43 AM EDT |
@BernardSwiss......Thankyou for one of the best verbal and "non-technical" summations I have yet seen with respect to the "invasion" of systemd into Linux. Even a non-programmer such as myself could easily follow its logic and conclusions. Thankyou. |
| flufferbeer Dec 03, 2014 12:13 PM EDT |
@Ridculy >>Thankyou for one of the best verbal and "non-technical" summations I have yet seen with respect to the "invasion" of systemd into Linux. Here's a VISUAL twittrpic that shows the worried faces of Slackware, Devuan, and even Gentoo masses Re:the impending systemd monster-- https://twitter.com/nixcraft/status/539715041272922112/photo... Ouch! fb |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 03, 2014 1:02 PM EDT |
That is a great photo. Thanks. |
| Ridcully Dec 03, 2014 6:07 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer........me too. "Ouch !". Gets the concept across very nicely, doesn't it ? The Debian move to use systemd is, in my humble opinion, one of the worst possible outcomes we could have envisaged. I hypothesise that the Debian "board" made that decision because of Gnome and the fact that systemd creep is now insinuating itself into dependencies involving Gnome......if you want to use Gnome, you have to use systemd or spend a great deal of time writing code to remove the rot of systemd - time Debian doesn't have and expertise that Debian is also losing. While I don't use Debian myself, I find it's move very disturbing given that so many other distros use the Debian code as their base input. I sincerely hope the Devuan engineers can succeed.....Ultimately, it's all about choice isn't it ? And the Devuan group have chosen not to be intimidated/forced by the Red Hat/Poettering invasion. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!