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Inspired by Linux
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Comments (39)
19 earlier comments in the full thread.
Dang dino...your post almost made me pull back my post...almost.
While the points you raise are valid, I have to wonder if Linspire isn't traveling the well worn path of Microsoft. "Just click here and we'll do the rest." Maybe its the elitist in me, but I'm seeing a dumbed down Linux here. Maybe that's good...maybe not. The arguement I have heard is that "once they get a taste of Linux, they will try other distros."
I dun' think so Lucy...
The marketing plan as I see it is set for those who are just too illiterate or lazy to take the couple of days necessary to get used to a real Linux environment. Yea for them in making a Linux for all to enjoy, boo-hiss for them seemingly to follow the "users are dumb/MS marketing plan".
While the points you raise are valid, I have to wonder if Linspire isn't traveling the well worn path of Microsoft. "Just click here and we'll do the rest." Maybe its the elitist in me, but I'm seeing a dumbed down Linux here. Maybe that's good...maybe not. The arguement I have heard is that "once they get a taste of Linux, they will try other distros."
I dun' think so Lucy...
The marketing plan as I see it is set for those who are just too illiterate or lazy to take the couple of days necessary to get used to a real Linux environment. Yea for them in making a Linux for all to enjoy, boo-hiss for them seemingly to follow the "users are dumb/MS marketing plan".
helios --
The problem with Microsoft is not their marketing plan, but their monopoly and the rapacious way in which they capitalize on it.
This may shock you, but lots of folks out there do not wish to acquire a CS degree, do not wish to be intimate with their machines.
They want an appliance, something to let them get work done. If Linspire can figure out a way to let those people use Linux, and make a few dollars in the process, my hat is off to them.
The problem with Microsoft is not their marketing plan, but their monopoly and the rapacious way in which they capitalize on it.
This may shock you, but lots of folks out there do not wish to acquire a CS degree, do not wish to be intimate with their machines.
They want an appliance, something to let them get work done. If Linspire can figure out a way to let those people use Linux, and make a few dollars in the process, my hat is off to them.
This may shock you, but lots of folks out there do not wish to acquire a CS degree, do not wish to be intimate with their machines.
I sir, am a computer idiot...at least I was until hosed by a nasty variant of bagle, dry...no cream cheese or schmere of any kind. I have read your posts and work from the first day I visited lxer and I more than respect your opinion, I quote them from time to time...I simply feel that people should take more responsibility if they are going to set down behind a computer. Of course, if they did that; Computer Geeks and companies that fix computers would be out of business.
I was asked to help with a Windows problem over the long weekend. I told them if they did not consider using Linux, i could not help them...helios don't do Windows. When I did query them about what the problem might be, I knew what the problem was and told them to open the control panel. Which was followed by a short silence and a clueless "huh?".
I asked my friend how long she had been using Windows.
"bout 4 years I think".
I stamped it "case closed" and said good-bye. CS not needed for a simple change of settings in the control panel.
I sir, am a computer idiot...at least I was until hosed by a nasty variant of bagle, dry...no cream cheese or schmere of any kind. I have read your posts and work from the first day I visited lxer and I more than respect your opinion, I quote them from time to time...I simply feel that people should take more responsibility if they are going to set down behind a computer. Of course, if they did that; Computer Geeks and companies that fix computers would be out of business.
I was asked to help with a Windows problem over the long weekend. I told them if they did not consider using Linux, i could not help them...helios don't do Windows. When I did query them about what the problem might be, I knew what the problem was and told them to open the control panel. Which was followed by a short silence and a clueless "huh?".
I asked my friend how long she had been using Windows.
"bout 4 years I think".
I stamped it "case closed" and said good-bye. CS not needed for a simple change of settings in the control panel.
helios -
I won't deny being sympathetic with your position.
It frosts me no end that people will spend hours upon hours learning the intricacies of their mobile phones and every stupid trick their IPod can muster, but don't want to invest a lick in learning about their computers.
And then, of course, call me up when they are running like molasses after an infection, or something has gone wonky or what-have-you.
If Linspire can sell to them, that's fine with me.
I'd rather have them be stupid with Linux than be stupid with Windows.
I yearn for the day when every piece of hardware works with Linux out of the box. More users = more pressure.
I won't deny being sympathetic with your position.
It frosts me no end that people will spend hours upon hours learning the intricacies of their mobile phones and every stupid trick their IPod can muster, but don't want to invest a lick in learning about their computers.
And then, of course, call me up when they are running like molasses after an infection, or something has gone wonky or what-have-you.
If Linspire can sell to them, that's fine with me.
I'd rather have them be stupid with Linux than be stupid with Windows.
I yearn for the day when every piece of hardware works with Linux out of the box. More users = more pressure.
I must have stumbled upon an alternate universe ... find my self agreeing with dino posts. Must have been the coffee, sat there several days maybe it fermented.
txt --
Fermented coffee...
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Fermented coffee...
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
re: helios
"I was asked to help with a Windows problem over the long weekend. I told them if they did not consider using Linux, i could not help them... helios don't do Windows. When I did query them about what the problem might be, I knew what the problem was and told them to open the control panel. Which was followed by a short silence and a clueless "huh?".
I asked my friend how long she had been using Windows.
"bout 4 years I think".
I stamped it "case closed" and said good-bye. CS not needed for a simple change of settings in the control panel." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, but as a professional Computer Analyst/Programmer, I have to tell you that has got to be one of the most ignorant things I have heard/read in a long time. How do you ever expect a person to want to consider switching to Linux when you give them an "I'm into Linux so I'm better than you" attitude when you talk to someone? Whether you realize it not, that is exactly what you are doing when treating someone like that. That comment just makes me want to shake my head in disgust.
Here is how I would have handled that situation: I would have demonstrated to that person HOW to do it so they learn from the experience - very important if you want to get and retain customers. Then I would have let them see the same thing (if possible) in Linspire Five-O and how much more easier it is. This customer would most definitely remember my kindness in showing him/her how to do something they found difficult in Windows, and with all of the problems inherent in the Windows world, may just come back to ask about the Linspire Five-O demo I recently gave them.
You have to realize that there are customers that don't know anything about computers, customers that know a little, customers that know enough to do almost everything on their own, and computer experts like myself. Not everyone has the same experience level with computers, and not everyone wants to become a computer programmer like myself. For example, my mother wants to get into the "Internet Age," so when I start building my Linspire-only systems she is going to get one of the first computers. I have to set everything up for her and show her everything because she is 62 and one of the people in this world that are overwhelmed by technological changes. Believe it or not, there are people like this. Take it from experience, customers appreciate it when you help them with learning how to do something on a computer whether it is Windows XP or some flavor of Linux.
You win people over to Linux by showing them that they can do the same things in Linux as in Windows, and they can also do those things much cheaper in Linux than in Windows. No wonder Linux has such a hard time getting to the "desktop" with experiences like what you have given them. :-/
I have converted my whole household over to Linspire Five-O, and the beauty of it all is that I only have to pay for it once since it is a "family-friendly OS" which means I can install it on as many computers as I want in my house. Much better than Microsoft's restrictive licensing wouldn't you say?
"I was asked to help with a Windows problem over the long weekend. I told them if they did not consider using Linux, i could not help them... helios don't do Windows. When I did query them about what the problem might be, I knew what the problem was and told them to open the control panel. Which was followed by a short silence and a clueless "huh?".
I asked my friend how long she had been using Windows.
"bout 4 years I think".
I stamped it "case closed" and said good-bye. CS not needed for a simple change of settings in the control panel." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, but as a professional Computer Analyst/Programmer, I have to tell you that has got to be one of the most ignorant things I have heard/read in a long time. How do you ever expect a person to want to consider switching to Linux when you give them an "I'm into Linux so I'm better than you" attitude when you talk to someone? Whether you realize it not, that is exactly what you are doing when treating someone like that. That comment just makes me want to shake my head in disgust.
Here is how I would have handled that situation: I would have demonstrated to that person HOW to do it so they learn from the experience - very important if you want to get and retain customers. Then I would have let them see the same thing (if possible) in Linspire Five-O and how much more easier it is. This customer would most definitely remember my kindness in showing him/her how to do something they found difficult in Windows, and with all of the problems inherent in the Windows world, may just come back to ask about the Linspire Five-O demo I recently gave them.
You have to realize that there are customers that don't know anything about computers, customers that know a little, customers that know enough to do almost everything on their own, and computer experts like myself. Not everyone has the same experience level with computers, and not everyone wants to become a computer programmer like myself. For example, my mother wants to get into the "Internet Age," so when I start building my Linspire-only systems she is going to get one of the first computers. I have to set everything up for her and show her everything because she is 62 and one of the people in this world that are overwhelmed by technological changes. Believe it or not, there are people like this. Take it from experience, customers appreciate it when you help them with learning how to do something on a computer whether it is Windows XP or some flavor of Linux.
You win people over to Linux by showing them that they can do the same things in Linux as in Windows, and they can also do those things much cheaper in Linux than in Windows. No wonder Linux has such a hard time getting to the "desktop" with experiences like what you have given them. :-/
I have converted my whole household over to Linspire Five-O, and the beauty of it all is that I only have to pay for it once since it is a "family-friendly OS" which means I can install it on as many computers as I want in my house. Much better than Microsoft's restrictive licensing wouldn't you say?
LsM - I have not seen your posts previously, hence, you may have easily missed some salient points about helios. To begin he has helped scores of Windows users without any possibility of compensation. That is, he is not in the computer business. His aiding people to see the advantages of Linux is an advocation in the strictest sense he will see no monetary gain from his efforts. Moreover, it takes his time away from his real (for cash business) and family.
One can be friendly and helpful, however, too often it is the same people seeking help for the same problem that are total impervious to an alternate solution. It is not possible to repeat past history in every post, hence, helios' experiences result in a post that to some might seem callous. Let me simply say you are mistaken.
One can be friendly and helpful, however, too often it is the same people seeking help for the same problem that are total impervious to an alternate solution. It is not possible to repeat past history in every post, hence, helios' experiences result in a post that to some might seem callous. Let me simply say you are mistaken.
Linspire man, I think you're taking Helios' point wrong (most of us do).
Think about the old saying:
"If you sell a man a fish, he's not hungry for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you go out of business!"
Well, maybe its not really an old saying, but how do you expect to truly help a Windows user that refuses to learn some of the basic tools needed to run Windows? Switching them to Linux won't help.
A Windows user of four or five years that is not familiar with the control panel would be like a Linspire user of four or five years that didn't know what 'click and run' was. Doing things for a user like that is not the the solution. They need to learn to do some basic things for themselves. Helios did the right thing.
Microsoft would like to keep everyone buying stale fish at a few hundred percent mark-up, and never have the customers learn the simple truth. They can buy their fish from others for a lot less, or even learn to fish for themselves!
Think about the old saying:
"If you sell a man a fish, he's not hungry for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you go out of business!"
Well, maybe its not really an old saying, but how do you expect to truly help a Windows user that refuses to learn some of the basic tools needed to run Windows? Switching them to Linux won't help.
A Windows user of four or five years that is not familiar with the control panel would be like a Linspire user of four or five years that didn't know what 'click and run' was. Doing things for a user like that is not the the solution. They need to learn to do some basic things for themselves. Helios did the right thing.
Microsoft would like to keep everyone buying stale fish at a few hundred percent mark-up, and never have the customers learn the simple truth. They can buy their fish from others for a lot less, or even learn to fish for themselves!
The main problem I have with Linspire is that they rename common programs to make it look like they invented it or created something. For example, they rename Xine to LinDVD, Firefox is called LBrowser (or something close), etc. They take way too much credit for running sed on the source code to stick an LProgramName everywhere the real program name was. Click'N'Run is a service, so I have no issue there. I also recognize the good things they have done regarding NVU development and general Linux marketing.
I think they have a good desktop focused distro, but I wish they would leave the program names alone. If they are just trying to make the programs more understandable for newbies, why not just have the menu entry say "DVD Player" and have it launch Xine. That is how Xandros does it. Changing the actual program name has a bad ethical smell.
I think they have a good desktop focused distro, but I wish they would leave the program names alone. If they are just trying to make the programs more understandable for newbies, why not just have the menu entry say "DVD Player" and have it launch Xine. That is how Xandros does it. Changing the actual program name has a bad ethical smell.
LinspireMan,
Between Linspire and Windows, I definitely will chose Linspire. Between Linspire and other Linux distros, I definitely will chose other Linux distro. The Five-O will not persuade me since I don't see any advantage of Linspire over others. On the contrary, I see many advantages of other distros over Linspire. Sorry man!
Between Linspire and Windows, I definitely will chose Linspire. Between Linspire and other Linux distros, I definitely will chose other Linux distro. The Five-O will not persuade me since I don't see any advantage of Linspire over others. On the contrary, I see many advantages of other distros over Linspire. Sorry man!
Personally. I kinda like Linspire but not as a system for my own use. I tested it and gave it a nice write-up on Linux Journal. For an eye candy person, it's very cool. It's a bargain, actually.
I do a lot of development and writing and prefer the gnome desktop. I used KDE for a long time and don't have a problem with it. But, doing administrative work, I prefer something closer to a window manager rather than a graphical desktop. I do everything remotely and often have several windows open at once.
But, the distribution is fast. It works!!!! It is easy to use. Noobies take to it. And, the business plan is a boots on the ground approach. When I was in the Micro Center, the sales people were exicted about it and wanted to demo it. That made me smile.
So, how can you not like something that makes sales people in a computer store smile?
I think that a professional edition might convert some of the hard core techies. Clean up the desktop, make it minimal, use gnome and use your great graphics and themes.
I do a lot of development and writing and prefer the gnome desktop. I used KDE for a long time and don't have a problem with it. But, doing administrative work, I prefer something closer to a window manager rather than a graphical desktop. I do everything remotely and often have several windows open at once.
But, the distribution is fast. It works!!!! It is easy to use. Noobies take to it. And, the business plan is a boots on the ground approach. When I was in the Micro Center, the sales people were exicted about it and wanted to demo it. That made me smile.
So, how can you not like something that makes sales people in a computer store smile?
I think that a professional edition might convert some of the hard core techies. Clean up the desktop, make it minimal, use gnome and use your great graphics and themes.
Tom - amen!!
My problems with Linspire are not all technological, after all it is Debian Linux. It goes back to the start of, what was it, Lindows? Robinson tried to hijack Linux; They tried to wipe out the word Linux from every where and put their own buzzwords. No chance to test before you pay. Made outrageous claims of being able to run all MS Apps. Running as root. Etc...
I don't mind distros making money, I think they are entitled since they spend a lot of resources and efforts to package and service their consumers. And why should I be forced to pay monthly for something I can download to keep apps up to date if other distros make it available for free?
My feeling is, Linspire is trying to lock-in newbies and organization just like MS does with their's.
I don't mind distros making money, I think they are entitled since they spend a lot of resources and efforts to package and service their consumers. And why should I be forced to pay monthly for something I can download to keep apps up to date if other distros make it available for free?
My feeling is, Linspire is trying to lock-in newbies and organization just like MS does with their's.
Abe -
Whatever they are trying to do, they can't lock in anybody. That's the beauty of free software.
If they create something that people don't wish to leave because it's comfortable and easy, that's ok. More power to them -- at least it ain't monopoly power.
A million Linspires don't keep me from choosing something else if I want to.
Whatever they are trying to do, they can't lock in anybody. That's the beauty of free software.
If they create something that people don't wish to leave because it's comfortable and easy, that's ok. More power to them -- at least it ain't monopoly power.
A million Linspires don't keep me from choosing something else if I want to.
[oldman]
Frickin' unnecessarily wide posts.
[/oldman]
Dino,
No doubt about that. You and I and many others like us know that, but many newbies don't and eventually that would reflect badly on FOSS in general. I feel it is part of our FOSS advocacy to warn about such behavior.
Update: CNR is now free to all Linspire/Freespire users (soon to be even more supported distributions through CNR.com http://cnr.com/). Freespire is the distribution designed for developers which the code will be promoted into Linspire (resolving any concern in the running as root issue). Give the Freespire 2.0 Alpha's http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_2 a test run...
And the issue of renaming packages just look to Debian (Ice Weasel and Ice Dove for FF & TB)...
Geeze, S3, nothing like raising a thread from the dead. C'mon, the crap about CNR hit EVERYTHING almost two weeks ago. Give it a rest.
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Linspire.
Making money. Pulling a little marketing razzle-dazzle.
Giving back code, and getting some people to use Linux who not otherwise do so.
That's gotta be evil, right?
We should all hate their guts, the dirty bastards.
Not enough simply to use another distribution.