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Penguin Counter Penguin: You Say Tomato, I say "Desktop"!

Posted by PaulFerris on · 35 comments
LXer; By Dean Pannell and Paul Ferris
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Today dawns a new era of discussion. In the past, Paul Ferris and Dean Pannell (FeriCyde and DinoTrac) sparred impromptu in the talkbacks of many a respectable (and otherwise :) website. Today, for the first time, they make it official. The format is called Penguin Counter Penguin, and the subject random. Today the debate is on the slighter side of the Linux Desktop. Is the Linux desktop really ready for prime-time? Who knows for sure, but you can bet that Paul and Dean have their flamethrowers tuned for the finer points of the debate!

LXer

Penguin<Counter>Penguin LXer


You Say Tomato, I say Desktop!
by Dean Pannell and

Paul Ferris, LXer.com contributors.



Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac


Paulie, Paulie, Paulie, you dear, sweet, naive little puffball. I've read your recent ramblings, and see that you believe the Dawn of the Linux Desktop is upon us. Well, wake up, Toto, we ain't in Server anymore. Not only is this strange new land of Desktop ruled by the Wicked Witch of the the Northwest, all the little Redkins seem to like it that way.

Unlike Server where People Who Know What They're Doing carefully (we hope) select hardware configurations and set up systems, those cute little Redkins expect to pick up any old piece of hardware at the local Cheap-Mart and have it work in their machine. If they hear about a piece of software, they expect that it will run on their box. Never mind that reality and expectation don't always line up,

Desktop is a place where people don't like to be told "You can't do that!" Not only that, they expect to do everything short of launching the Space Shuttle (After all, even NASA has trouble with that one) without knowing anything beyond their own name, rank, and cereal brand.



Dean you ignorant ----! -- Wait, wrong forum.



Dean, as usual I can count upon you to predispose yourself of disposing of my predispositions before I can even begin imposing them. I'm not trying, after all, to suggest that people can start using Linux like a supported operating system. I'm suggesting it for people that need a box that can surf the web or check email somewhat securely. I'm saying, in other words, that the day of the sub $200 (US) Linux box is here.

Windows has become such a liability, that it needs to be relegated to the box used to run only Windows applications. People need the Web and Email more than ever, and today that, I'm saying, is the killer Linux app. Linux can do that -- so can Apple for that matter. What has Apple recently released -- go figure, a cheap Mac! Why? May speculations abound, but I'm sure it's so people can find out what a blessing it is to just do the simpler things in life and not worry about having the bank account info mailed off to Hong Kong in the process.

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde


Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac
Paulie-boy, methinks you've spent way too much time trying to pass the Bunny Hill on Tux Racer. Surely you haven't forgotten the "Golden Age of the Web Appliance", a glorious era era lasting maybe three months back in 2001. You won't see any I-Openers at Best Buy, little guy, and the only Ipaqs they sell are PDAs, not the Keyboard with an LCD MSN-surfers that Compaq was trying to move at the time.

Admittedly, there were price & technology issues, but the biggest issue remains: People don't like to be limited. That little $500 Mac you mentioned (OK -- with a keyboard, mouse and monitor, we're talking more like $700) may be small, but it's still a Mac and you can do a whole lot more with it than send an e-mail.

So -- let's presume you can build a Linux appliance for $200 -- still a pretty tough price point 4 years after the I-Opener became I-Wide-Shut : what'cha gonna do with it?

You, Paulie, you geeky little bouncer of bits and bytes, might try hooking the thing up as a firewall for your Internet-enabled electric toothbrush, but most folks aren't going to do that. They'll stare at the thing and say, "Now what?" Maybe a friend will turn them onto a USB-attached toaster oven, or some really neat piece of software analyzing whether McDonald's has sold more hamburgers than Bill Gates has dollars.

And that's the rub. People might believe they can do cool stuff with a Mac because Apple has spent years selling the Mac as a smooth box for well-heeled non-geeks. Linux = Unix = Huh? What you talkin' about, Willis. And we're not talking wild speculation or exotic software here. Just walking into any BestCompCityMax store and you'll find stacks and stacks of TurboTax -- which, by the way, doesn't run on Linux.





Hmmm... While your points about the web appliances are sharp ones, so is the one on your head! I'm starting to wonder if you've had too much management experience to see clearly now, because the sub-200 dollar Linux boxes are all around us. You can get one from Linspire, or from

Microtel (Walmart is selling these on-line, but you have to "drill-down" on their web site to find them).

But the point I'm sticking to is this -- that there remains the most enormous problem of Windows security. Linux continues to get more secure while Windows exploits sprout faster than ugly little pimples on a teen-agers face. The exploitation of these security holes has become a cash cow for tons of people (for Crooks, Anti-Virus software makers, and now Microsoft since they're also selling anti-spyware software -- you can make a point that at least 2 of the three on that list are hard to distinguish).

A decent KVM (Keyboard, Video, Mouse) switch can be had for $30, and a second network card for a PC, $15. Make the thing an in-line firewall with an intelligent KVM -- bundle it with the KVM soft buttons so that a user can snap it into a working broadband connection. The final piece would be an intelligent Samba configuration that simply made the box's filesystem open for the user on the friendly side of the Linux box. The appliance is for the most part, transparent to the user.

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde


Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac
KVM switch? Second network card? You might as well be talking flimflamgizmotron, my little wide-eyed friend. That's exactly the kind of thing I mean when I talk about the desktop being harder than the server room. Geeks inherently understand servers and the people who run them. They forget that desktop users tend to be a whole lot less interested in all that nitty gritty stuff.

And - security as a driver?

Maybe. After all, Firefox has really taken off thanks to the gaping holes in IE. What's it up to? Maybe 5% of the browsers out there? If you consider that a major hunk of the Firefox users are on Linux, that's not a huge chunk of Windows users. Still encouraging, though.

Still -- Do you think people will understand the concept that an OS can be architecturally resistant to attack? After all, Movies from DieHard to Ocean's Eleven have created the idea that a good hacker can get into any system just by plugging in and typing a few magic incantations. Just this season, 24's Chloe asked why a workmate didn't just hack into a highly secure government system. If people believe that the NSA can be hacked just like that, how do we convince them that there's a real difference between Linux and Windows?





Good point about the misperception of hackable operating systems! I always get blank stares when I talk about not using anti-virus software on my home desktops...

I'm suspecting, however, that you may have missed something about FireFox conversion. While getting people to use Linux is difficult on a desktop system, getting Windows users to download and love FireFox is an entirely different matter. Most of the growth coming out of the FireFox usage crowd are Windows users -- not Linux users. OSS is making it's way onto the desktop, just not the Linux stuff.

I do see what you mean about getting people to understand operating system level security as a feature -- but they instantly do understand appliances. They will buy, for example, a hardware router with a built in firewall without much cajoling -- which is more to my point about the $200.00 appliance.

Speaking of which -- why doesn't Linksys simply expand the distro on a WRT54G to include the ability to use network storage from an SMB share and some Xwindow Linux stuff? They could embed an entire desktop in there. Of course, they might need to up the RAM to a lot higher value and so on -- but it'd be a Linux desktop in ROM with mainly two features: Web and Email. Yes, we're again back to the Internet appliance territory of 2005 -- with two major market differences:

  1. Cheap broadband abounds.
  2. Viruses and Spyware, literally, everywhere.


Attach a monitor and keyboard and away you go. Optionally use the USB port for local storage, and it's a PC with a router and wireless capability. This is the kind of thinking I'm proposing -- yeah it's out of the box (there is no damn box anyway) but look at what I'm aiming at -- security minded appliances that people can use right now in conjunction with the desktop they have. Give this new appliance the right kind of tweaking: The ability to easily add applications from an on-line source.

The idea is really not out there at all. Everything exists today but the vendor who will step up to the challenge.

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde




Penguin on the left!
DinoTrac


Well, Paulie, I can see that the stray particles zipping out of that display flickering in the dim light of your basement hasn't zapped away all of gray matter.

Yes, a router could definitely be a little itsy-bitsy Linux machine with Samba and the works, but then you've missed the whole starting point of the conversation. That ain't a desktop. People like to do things with their desktops. Some people will be happy with limited functionality appliances, but, so what?

Are we planning to win the desktop by giving up on it?

Paulie, you pessimistic little peanut you, we don't have to think that small. There's nothing wrong with appliances. More power to them, bu the desktop is there for the taking.



I know it's seemed that the desktop was Just Around the Corner for years now. But things really have changed, and Linux is beautifully positioned.

KDE has matured into a very comfortable working environment. GNOME is still there, but KDE is ready to embrace Windows refugees.

OpenOffice is getting ready to launch version 2.0, which I expect to be a serious shot over Microsoft's bow.

You already know about FireFox.

Should we forget that OpenOffice and FireFox, along with other free software like the Gimp,

MySQL, PostGreSQL, Blender, and who knows are cross platform products that work happily on Windows and on Linux? People who use those products on Windows don't have to fret over software at all!

And -- an ace in the hole: the Wicked Witch of the Northwest has been pushing .Net programming for the last three years or so. The purist crowd turns up it's nose -- even though .Net is freer than Java at this point -- but lots of work is being done on that platform.

Why is that an ace? For all of the guff Miguel de Icaza has taken for the last few years, the Mono project has gone 1.0. Novell is pumping money into it. Mono code runs on Windows. The vice versa is still a little dodgy, but Mono 2.0 is rounding into shape and will contain Forms support. At that point, we'll have a lot of Windows developers writing applications that run on Linux.



Cool.

Our guys just have to remember:

  • Some of the desktops are already ours.
  • More desktops could be ours today.
  • We just have to believe, to keep our eyes on the prize, and, perhaps, to adapt the Air Force motto: The difficult we do right away, the impossible takes a little longer.
  • The Desktop is hard!!!
  • It ain't impossible


Hey, who's on what side here! I was the one saying that this desktop thing was too complex for the moment, or was I? I'm confused (what's new :).

I do think there's room for a good Linux desktop -- and maybe not just on Intel. A fellow Ohio Linux'er, Henry Keultjes, has an a rather persistent belief that possibly PowerPC based Linux's time has come.. I'm a bit on the skeptical side there but stranger things have happened. I'll leave room in my list of potential realities for this one, as I do think there are price points and power consumption issues that haven't always been in the forefront of the typical PC choice.

As for what the "desktop" is -- who is to say? If we let Microsoft define it, it's going to be something akin to a security nightmare, bloated and complex. The problem with a word like "desktop", after all, is that everyone can have a definition. So maybe I started off on the wrong foot by calling a security appliance a desktop.

Regardless, let's disagree to agree here on the points you've made: The desktop isn't easy, but the stuff in a well-bread Linux distribution (KDE for sure) makes for something fairly easy to use for beginning users. Free Software and OSS are making their way slowly onto the desktop, even in some surprising ways when it comes to Windows ports of Free Software projects.

How much time will it take to make a sizable dent in total "desktop" market share?

This, my fellow penguin, is the $200.00 question...

Penguin on the right!
FeriCyde





Paul Ferris (fericyde) is an IT professional with over 15 years of *nix experience, and over 5 years of that implementing Linux in enterprise-class situations. He has been discussing Linux for more than 7 years in various publications, on-line and in print. He's an engineer, Linux community member, husband, father and more. Lately he's been contributing to LXer.com to the general discomfort of the folks in the Northwest.

Penguin<Counter>Penguin
Dean Pannell (dinotrac) has been nourishing a general lack of any trades for years. Once a performance geek in BIG mainframe shops, he's been horsing around with Linux since 1998, and writing about it since 1999. Clearly brain-damaged along the way, he dropped out to attend law school and became a lawyer. Fortunately for the world, he has come to his senses since then. Of course, he does keep the license up to date... Wonder if therapy would help?

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Comments (35)

Nice Graphics!

I would have missed out on the impressive graphics had I been using my regular lynx browser, but I picked this up at work and was blown away by the "talking penguin heads"!

Oh, and the article is pretty good too. FeriTool & TinoTrash both make caramelizing points on this heated topic, which I have no opinion of just before lunch.

-Tool

All credit goes to Mr. Paul for the layout and graphics. He did the dandy little penguins and all the rest.

My contributions were limited to insightful and highly accurate commentary.
Ha! Insightful and highly accurate?

What about all the "little guy" comments in there? I see you wasted not time at all in attacking my vertically challenged stature.
Oh, the paranoid ramblings of the forgotten little man.

You've spent way too much time with your mottled flesh pressed against the monitor screen in a vain attempt to become one with your system.

Besides, why would I attack what you laughingly call your height? There's not enough there to make fun of.
"Besides, why would I attack what you laughingly call your height? There's not enough there to make fun of."

SEE -- SEE WHAT I MEAN!?!?! Will I never get any respect from you?!?!

Oh, wait, I already know the answer to that... ;)
Paul -

It's not that I don't respect you, it's ... hmmnmm. Let me think about that for a while. You might be right after all.
Geeze, you guys sound like Deuce Bigalow (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205000).

"It's not small, it's thin!"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205000/quotes

-Tool

Tool, there's only one guy among us who could be considered "thin-man" -- and that's the real tool (MS -- those initials don't stand for Microsoft man!).

--FeriCyde
Help-Help! I'm being repressed!

Holy sheit, is that "the Tool"? The one and only, as in the original Tool???

SeanConnery315? Lol, it's gotta be! Hey man how have you been? Visit http://www.schwach.net and shoot me an email!

-schwach

I had to look down at my shirt cuffs to recall the initials (bad memory). I think the next batch from ole' Brooks Brothers (http://www.brooksbrothers.com) will have them etched on the pocket instead - more of a fashion statement. Certainly more than your wrinkled jacket and polo shirt. You got no room to talk, FerriCyclone.

-Tool
Tool!

Why don't you have your initials etched on the back of your head? It'd be more obvious than the cuff-links, and people would be more inclined to look there ;)

PS: It's FeriCyde. Get the spelling right... Do I have to tell you everything?!?

Penguin Counter Penguin? You mean, PCP??

Penguin Counter Penguin? You mean, PCP?? - lol, great article! & nice gimp work too!

Schwach
PCP! Dammit, I knew I was forgetting something -- I needed to run the title through a TLA checker!

It could be worse, though, those penguins could have my face plastered on them ;)

Dude, you're a nut! Did I ever tell you that I got that tattooed on my back??

:)

btw: This is a cool site!
Riveting! Sensational! An intellectual delight! A must see for the whole family.

tuxchick: Riveting?!?!

I see how you are! You thought you could slip that insult by real sly-like, but it's plain as day to the mechanical engineer in me -- thought you'd be all c lever-like and pull a fast one, didn't you?!?! Riveting could mean "oh, it's hard to take your eyes off" -- or it could mean "a cheap bond", like it's not welded or implying shoddy workmanship.

You mechanical snob hackers are all alike. You crouch in the dust of your workshops, nothing but the glow of the arc welders and the smell of smouldering grease to guide your way. You pretend to be giving out compliments like "wow, that's a real piece of work" -- but it's obvious that your words have double meanings. I suspect you might even be implicating sarcasm (how dare you!).

But I'm onto you now! I sense foul-play (penguin play?) of the most tactile sort. You can keep your rivet gun hidden, but your intentions are now obvious to everyone. Soon (SOON!) we'll all rise up and bind, we'll stick together against you and your kind -- like we're rubber and you're glue, the insults will bounce off and stick to you.

Kinda poetic that. Sorry...

Then, THEN, we'll see who's fasten-ating!
No FAIR! I suck at puns. I should have known better than to engage in a battle of wits. May your soldering iron weld itself to your workbench!
You don't have to worry about that with FerriKlutz. I hear he's not really good with tools, so he probably doesn't even know how to solder!

-Tool
listen Toolboy -- what would you know about my tool expertise? I've got a million examples of my usage of tools, starting with the gimp and ending with hacked up html pages...

And you Know what I mean -- don't make me pull up vi and prove it ;)

--FeriCylinder

Who is this 'Toadie' guy that voted against this story?

Hah!

You know all too well who I am.

Sure, I've been a little quite these last two or three years, but that doesn't mean I'm dead.

We've been very busy up here at RedmondWare, and the Billionaire has been licking his chops (literally. Guy just loves lunch meetings and pork chops) over the chance to put you little bird droppings in your place.

Just remember -- Herring are little fish. Mighty little fish. We are a big fish.

And -- we've reloaded. Check out the analyst's firms. Over the last couple of years, SellThemAnythingSoLongAsItsOursAndCostsABundle has been at work recruiting analysts at impartial research firms.

We've already got I'llSayAnythiingSoLongAsYouPayMe and ItIsn'tReallyaLieIfThePriceIsright on board, with more to come.

To heck with mincemeat. How about a little Penguin hash?













Dave -- doesn't this thing (LXer.com) have an astroturf detector?!?!?
It does, and it's been going off all day long (hard to sleep)

Dave
An astroturf detector still needs a remover to take out the garabage.

Of course shameless self promotion by starting multiple threads under his own story, should be setting off every bell and whistle.

Tut tut, my dear peragrin, shameless self promotion is the only way to go. It's you folks who feel shame at selling yourselves and your wares who get left in the dust.

Why else would our valued (to the penny) customers stick with products that break, that invite goblins into their homes and, if only we could get the robotics to work, would kick the family dog?





Toadie, don't make me call Joe Barr! --FeriCyde
Hey!

Somebody called him. I saw warthawg on the voter list, and we all know who that is...

Here's a hint: It ain't no northern pretty boy.

You Linux lovers are all alike. Afraid of a good fight, you have to call big brother. The Billionaire's not afraid of anybody. He'll take anybody on, and all he needs is his own two hands, his money, his lawyers, his bodyguards and all of the politicians he's contributed to.
Toadie: Is that all -- I thought he could do with some more pie...

Will you two shut-up?

Hi,

I don't know if anyone here agrees with the following or not. But I am going to ask anyway. Imagine a polite voice, sincerely asking you to stop with your (in my opinion) pointless trolling and articles. This applies to Paul Ferris (whoever you are) and his sycophant sidekick(s). After years of trying to find a news source that was well rounded, Linux only intended and not full of horrible graphics and near useless editorials I hit paydirt with lxer.

Now I have a few minor issues with this site, but it has proved itself a great source for news. And until I meet my personal levels for perfection I don't intend to impose those same values upon a mere website.

Until recently.

Now I discover that the site has been invaded by a pair (and more) of people who seem to live so far in the past that they still think it necessary to debate the issues of Linux on the Desktop.

You seem to feel the need to debate the relevancy of Linux. Linux exists in it's own world and is well beyond being stopable. The only question anyone needs to ask is are you with us? The train already left, but the beauty of Open Source (and especially GPL) is that anyone can get on and join the party, at anytime.

The articles being published are editorials, and I would claim they are not very good ones. This would not be a problem. Once I saw the name attached to the story I could avoid it, and have been doing so (like any other news source I consider bad). However once upon a time the comments were worth reading too. I saw some good debates (mostly about Sun) but they were often good and informative, if sometimes badly written.

Now as soon as a certain small number of names appear in the comments section I know that those comments have been reduced to low sarcasm, and humor that would be considered pathetic by an eight year old school boy. And rarely providing anything that could be considered information.

Neither of you (and possibly your hangers-on) appears to actually know anything. I could be wrong, and if you want to prove that then fine, please do so with stories that are news worthy.

This site is a Linux _news_ site. There is no-one here looking to be converted to Linux. Those here already know. So if you are going to write editorials can you keep them to issues that people might actually want to read? How about articles on configuring strange applications, or how to do specific things?

I believe in freedom of speech, and positively encourage it, but I also believe in a level of personal responsability, which means understanding that no matter how often or how loudly you shout, there are people who find you utterly irrelevant. I am one of those with regards you guys.

I don't really wish to have some grand debate. I am merely letting you know that there is a level of discontent with the way you behave on this website. I may be the only one, in which case I shall know that you are just people who naturally get on my nerves, and it is therefore my issue to deal with. I will deal with it by not saying anything more to you and avoiding all your articles and comments.

Just so as you know.
I can sum up your entire point quickly enough.

You don't enjoy low level sarcastic humour. This site didn't have it before and now it's all over the place.

It's okay really. Not everybody enjoys quick wit, sarcastic comebacks, between people who would be friends if they actually liked each other.

Other than the Sun threads with Taldeste, this site is pretty quiet. A couple of posts a day,at least until recently.

Also Linux on the Desktop isn't solved yet. It's not yet being installed by default in any kinds of numbers. Until somebody starts shipping OEM Linux installs by the millions the debate will still go on.

I am sorry that you don't their childish tit-for tat humour, I hope you stay and just ignore their posts. At least until you find your 'prefect' webite. Meanwhile I will take what I find, realizing that the 'prefect' news website doesn't exsist unless you create it your self. Being lazy I am not going to do that. That and I am to harsh of a critic on myself.

Also take a look at http://www.machighlight.com One guy likes tech and Apple news and created a simple site just for that. Maybe you can use a similar format. and if you do, please post it here. That way when the noise gets to much the rest of us can wander over.
I'm glad that you found your way to lxer and equally glad that feel comfortable in expressing a negative opinion. That is not merely the essence of free speech, but of community. A gathering of clones is an inventory, not a community.

That said, I am equally comfortable responding to a couple of points:

1. C'mon. It doesn't take an Einstein to recognize that pieces called rant mode=1 or penguin/counter penguin are not hard news pieces. You're free to think they are dreck and to ignore them, but you can't claim that you were bamboozled into reading them without admitting that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

2. You're just plain wrong on some key points.

Paul and I have never debated the relevance of Linux. We both use it every day and have both planted it in corporate environments.

We both believe that Linux and free software constitute a powerful force in the real world. To say that Linux is unstoppable is to live in fairy-tale land. If you've been in the business for as long as Paul and I have, you've seen a number of "unstoppable" forces: IBM, Lotus, Sun, Microsoft, Intel, to name a few. Everything is stoppable. Everything. A little hubris, a few stupid moves ... and ...WHAM!

Desktop Linux, by the way, is not resolved among Linux supporters. Just yesterday, I spoke with a colleague who wished Linux developers would stop wasting time on the desktop and concentrate on polishing the server room stuff.

Beyond that, there are those who don't care about attracting new users or think that people will somehow flock to Linux if only it comes pre-installed.

For that matter, sometimes its ok just to offer a little encouragement who have seen desktop linux be "just around the corner" for the last five years.

At any rate, I hope you continue to visit lxer, even if you skip the things I write.

I actually like the pieces. They have that whole "shut up bitch or I'll hit you with my purse" feel to them. ;-)
Well, actually, they made us edit that line out...

But it was in there!
I suggest simply ignoring the bits you don't like. Paul, dinotrac, and the other homies always post under their own names (dinotrac, what were your parents thinking??) so they're easy enough to avoid.

Humor is subjective, so how about leaving those of us who enjoy the elevated, sophisticated Three Stooges-type drollery in peace. You are welcome to make your own contributions.
Glummung: In a word, no. But I do respect your point of view, so don't take that badly -- ok?

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