- Site menu:
- Latest Discussions
- Latest Newswire
- Archives
- Submit Story
- Story HOWTO
- Syndicate
- E-mail Alerts
Stallman Takes His Free-Software Crusade to Argentina
|
|
|
Comments (99)
79 earlier comments in the full thread.
tc -
;0)
gus3 -
Man. I agree with you wholeheartedly, except that I disagree with you strongly.
His fault, not his fault, controllable, not controllable, no matter. RMS is a royal jerk whether he means to be or not. I, for one, believe that he means to be one because he is smart enough not to be one -- if he wants to. He thinks his positions through thoroughly and chooses his words carefully. He has the ability, should he so choose, to be insincerely nice in those situations where he just doesn't get the society thing.
But --
The number of people who encounter him personally is one helluva lot smaller than the number of people who encounter the things he's created and taken advantage of the things he's touched.
Lots of people use GPL'd software, emacs, GNU utilities, free KDE, etc, without even knowing who he is.
More harm than good?
Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability.
Man. I agree with you wholeheartedly, except that I disagree with you strongly.
His fault, not his fault, controllable, not controllable, no matter. RMS is a royal jerk whether he means to be or not. I, for one, believe that he means to be one because he is smart enough not to be one -- if he wants to. He thinks his positions through thoroughly and chooses his words carefully. He has the ability, should he so choose, to be insincerely nice in those situations where he just doesn't get the society thing.
But --
The number of people who encounter him personally is one helluva lot smaller than the number of people who encounter the things he's created and taken advantage of the things he's touched.
Lots of people use GPL'd software, emacs, GNU utilities, free KDE, etc, without even knowing who he is.
More harm than good?
Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability.
> I'm not perfect, either.
I'll try to remember, Dino. I wouldn't want to go around giving you credit you don't deserve. It might cause further problems for your humility. :)
> Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability.
Agreed.
I'll try to remember, Dino. I wouldn't want to go around giving you credit you don't deserve. It might cause further problems for your humility. :)
> Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability.
Agreed.
> Short of raising an army, he just doesn't have that ability.
Yay! Politics!
ahem... But seriously, ah, oh. I've already said what I wanted to say about RMS.
Hope everyone is having a good Saturday.
ahem... But seriously, ah, oh. I've already said what I wanted to say about RMS.
Hope everyone is having a good Saturday.
Quoting:There will always be 'sensitive' attention suckers and pseudo-intellectuals lacking a sense of humour to get offended by RMS.
There will also always be insensitive clods who dismiss things like racism and religious intolerance. They are part of a very real problem in society today.
BR --
Yeah, but that kind of thinking is exactly what I'd expect from someone who doesn't believe in Marduk.
Yeah, but that kind of thinking is exactly what I'd expect from someone who doesn't believe in Marduk.
@tracyanne
Its kind of odd to be arguing on the civility of RMSs replies. My opinion of those comments is the same as most others here and close to what Dino said. Nearly all others who I know think similarly of those comments (in a different place and time one could find those humorous though RMS was, of course, dead serious). Clearly social behaviour is with regards to what others think of a person's behaviour even though one may be perfect in own estimation.
(I have reordered the quotes to fit in the continuity of responses better)
Earlier you contradicted yourself (i.e. civility/politeness is w.r.t. language) with this:
That I consider RMSs position itself to be foolish and irrational in this instance (as some others on this forum have pointed out) is besides the point.
Its kind of odd to be arguing on the civility of RMSs replies. My opinion of those comments is the same as most others here and close to what Dino said. Nearly all others who I know think similarly of those comments (in a different place and time one could find those humorous though RMS was, of course, dead serious). Clearly social behaviour is with regards to what others think of a person's behaviour even though one may be perfect in own estimation.
(I have reordered the quotes to fit in the continuity of responses better)
Quoting: Clearly RMS, in the case of the examples I used, would rather the Emacs list be used for the purpose of discussing Emacs, not social bonding, and he is not about to spare anyone's feelings to make that point clear. On the other hand he never failed to use polite and courteous language - in other words, he was at all times civil.How do you come to the conclusion that Stefan was trying anything with regards to "social bonding"? If you pay a little attention you will see that Stefan was just expressing the reason why he will not be able to do what RMS asked of him at that point. Then your contention that only cursing can show lack of civility is incorrect in all cultures I know of; being courteous is definitely way beyond RMSs grasp (at least where his ideas are concerned) so will not even try to go into that.
Earlier you contradicted yourself (i.e. civility/politeness is w.r.t. language) with this:
Quoting: Actually it is. Being civil requires that one understandIf RMS would have had even an iota of human understanding then he would have known that Stefan considers this an important event in his life and even if RMS thinks it to be an improper act he would have kept his mouth shut on that giving a little understanding to Stefan's feelings.
That I consider RMSs position itself to be foolish and irrational in this instance (as some others on this forum have pointed out) is besides the point.
Quoting: What it does not imply is that one wishes to spare the other person's feelingsReally? So politeness and civility is not about giving due consideration to other's feelings (particularly colleagues in this instance)?
@dino
Quoting: The number of people who encounter him personally is one helluva lot smaller than the number of people who encounter the things he's created and taken advantage of the things he's touched.Agreed. But you never know what the man will say in tours like these on unrelated topics (and offend people like Caitlyn mentions).
That wasn't an honest criticism, IMO it was a slimy attack from a pro-Mono advocate who didn't care for RMS' warnings against using C# or Mono.
I keep hearing this but I honestly do not see any Mono connection with David Schlesinger. Can someone please point out what I am missing?
I've looked over David Schlesinger's Blog and he doesn't seem to advocate the use of Mono at all. He doesn't even appear to have written any Mono software. And he doesn't appear to be at all involved with the Mono project.
It seems to me the only people accusing Mono folks of trying to smear RMS are the people trying to smear Mono.
Please, tuxchick, share with us your evidence that Mr. Schlesinger is a Mono advocate? Or is it like I suggested, an attempt to smear Mono with a lie?
I keep hearing this but I honestly do not see any Mono connection with David Schlesinger. Can someone please point out what I am missing?
I've looked over David Schlesinger's Blog and he doesn't seem to advocate the use of Mono at all. He doesn't even appear to have written any Mono software. And he doesn't appear to be at all involved with the Mono project.
It seems to me the only people accusing Mono folks of trying to smear RMS are the people trying to smear Mono.
Please, tuxchick, share with us your evidence that Mr. Schlesinger is a Mono advocate? Or is it like I suggested, an attempt to smear Mono with a lie?
Quoting:How do you come to the conclusion that Stefan was trying anything with regards to "social bonding"? If you pay a little attention you will see that Stefan was just expressing the reason why he will not be able to do what RMS asked of him at that point.
I think you support my point about RMS's use of polite language quite well, and the lengths people will go to find offence. I never stated that Stefan was social bonding, of course the late post by another member offering congratulations is an act of social bonding, as indeed were the posts RMS referred to in later quotes, in the article I referenced, and quoted from.
Quoting:Earlier you contradicted yourself (i.e. civility/politeness is w.r.t. language) with this: Quoted:
Actually it is. Being civil requires that one understand
If RMS would have had even an iota of human understanding then he would have known that Stefan considers this an important event in his life and even if RMS thinks it to be an improper act he would have kept his mouth shut on that giving a little understanding to Stefan's feelings.
That I consider RMSs position itself to be foolish and irrational in this instance (as some others on this forum have pointed out) is besides the point.
Actually I have not contradicted myself. There is, in fact, no indication that RMS does not understand that this is an important event in Stefan's life. There is, on the other hand many clear indications that RMS is disappointed, unhappy, irritated, etc that Stefan considers this event as more important than Emacs. But at no time do we see RMS using insults, rudeness, or any of the other things that spectators have taken umbridge with. Instead what we see is a civil, polite, thoughtful statement voicing that displeasure. and later a similarly civil polite and thoughtful statement making known his displeasure that the Emacs list is being used for Social Bonding (the act of offering congratulations for what RMS describes as something that requires no special talent, and as both Constable_Angua and myself have done that thing that requires no special talent, we both have to agree with RMS on that point), this comment was quite in keeping with other similar statements he had made with respect to social binding.
We get so many comments about how he insults people, but the only people I'm seeing who seem to be insulted by RMS's comments are the spectators. Most of whom in my experience seem to find insult in the most trivial of things, who seem to me to go out of their way to find insult.
> who seem to me to go out of their way to find insult.
It never fails to amaze me just how "offended" some people want to be.
It never fails to amaze me just how "offended" some people want to be.
Quoting:There is, on the other hand many clear indications that RMS is disappointed, unhappy, irritated, etc that Stefan considers this event as more important than Emacs.Then I suggest RMS explain this to Stefan's wife.
Stefan isn't married to Richard Stallman, or Emacs. If Stallman can't accept that, it isn't Stefan's problem. It certainly mustn't become Stefan's daughter's problem, which is the logical end result of what RMS is expressing.
Quoting:Stefan isn't married to Richard Stallman, or Emacs.
Indeed, he is not.
Quoting:If Stallman can't accept that, it isn't Stefan's problem.
I don't see anywhere that RMS said it was Stefan's problem.
Quoting:It certainly mustn't become Stefan's daughter's problem,
Nor do I see anywhere that RMS implied it was Stefan's daughter's problem.
Quoting:which is the logical end result of what RMS is expressing.
Well, actually no, it's not. Except perhaps in the mind of those who choose to be insulted by RMS's statements.
What I do see is a very clear expression of displeasure, that Emacs has been deemed less important, by Stefan, than Emacs, and the implication that it must wait while Stefan does the family thing, followed by acceptance that Emacs will have to wait.
The additional material that certain people like to take umbrige over relates to what RMS would prefer the Emacs Lists be used for, and I don't see anything unreasonable about the request that people refrain from Social Bonding on the Emacs list. Many employers would not have been as civil as RMS, who merely requests that people not do it, and may well be constrained by the fact that the people concerned are not employees, but are instead volunteers, has been, in similar situations.
@tracyanne
Quoting: I think you support my point about RMS's use of polite language quite well, and the lengths people will go to find offence.It amazes me to see the bizarre lengths supporters will go to defend a person. The offence was plainly obvious for most people. He was much more than just a jerk in this instance.
Quoting: I never stated that Stefan was social bonding, of course the late post by another member offering congratulations is an act of social bondingIf that were the case then RMS could have rather just said that there is no need for such messages on emacs list to the person who posted it. He rather chose to insult Stefan by talking about talents of reproduction and such. Why do you feel the need to put words in the mouth of RMS in this instance? For those who have seen RMSs dealings for any period of time, it was clear that RMS chose those comments because he thinks that reproduction is an improper act and would have done such on any other mailing list.
Quoting: Actually I have not contradicted myself.You did. Because first you claimed that civility is about understanding others, but then went on about how civility is only about non-abusive language.
Quoting: But at no time do we see RMS using insults, rudeness, or any of the other thingsNo, you mistake rudeness for abusive language. Talking about parenting as being an improper reproductive skill to a colleague who is parenting a child is way beyond just rude.
Quoting: RMS describes as something that requires no special talentAnd an incorrect one at that, since parenting of a child is a special skill which RMS seems to utterly lack.
Quoting: but the only people I'm seeing who seem to be insulted by RMS's comments are the spectatorsWhat makes you think that I, for example, would be insulted by his comments? The author of the piece thinks it to be a "lamentable tragedy of RMS". Likewise I just think that he is a royal fool when it comes to many aspects of social interaction.
Quoting:It amazes me to see the bizarre lengths supporters will go to defend a person. [quote]
First, I'm not defending RMS. I'm pointing out that the sins RMS is being accussed of, are, in fact, not the sins he has committed.
Second, I'm not a supporter of RMS, I suspect he wouldn't want my support in any case.
[quote] And an incorrect one at that, since parenting of a child is a special skill which RMS seems to utterly lack.
If you reread his comments you will notice that he did not mention bringing up a child.
Once again he is accused of something he never said. Those who choose to be insulted by RMS's comments seem to spend inordinate amounts of time reading into his pronouncements many things that are neither said nor implied.
Quoting:If that were the case then RMS could have rather just said that there is no need for such messages on emacs list to the person who posted it. He rather chose to insult Stefan by talking about talents of reproduction and such.
I can assure you that reproduction of the species requires no special talents. RMS is quite correct. I have no idea what his opinion is or what talents he believes are required to bring up a child to adulthood.
Quoting:Why do you feel the need to put words in the mouth of RMS in this instance?
I have added nothing to what RMS has said. On the other hand those who seek to find insult in his pronouncements seem to take special gee in adding words and meanings that he never spoke, or wrote, or obviously never intended.
I find it amusing, that so many spend so much time reading their prejudices into his words.
> I find it amusing, that so many spend so much time reading their prejudices into his words.
While I find it amusing that some can read the same words and not comprehend their clear meaning. But that's the way it is.
While I find it amusing that some can read the same words and not comprehend their clear meaning. But that's the way it is.
Quoting:While I find it amusing that some can read the same words and not comprehend their clear meaning.
Yes, it is very amusing isn't it. And unfortunately that is the way life is.
May I suggest that this thread end with the content of the first post, i.e.
Quoting:Enough said., because now: Too much has been said.
With due apologies to TxtEdMacs I will post one last comment.
Quoting: If you reread his comments you will notice that he did not mention bringing up a child.I hope RMS is intelligent enough to realize that Stefan was not swamped due to the act of reproduction rather due to parenting of the new born and since he was commenting on the unavailability of Stefan for the task at hand there is only one meaning to be made out of it. OTOH if he really was talking about the act of reproduction it would be very silly of him since Stefan was busy due to something else.
> And unfortunately that is the way life is.
The "mind filter". Likely Buddhist in concept.
Prejudice, experience, preferences, desires, everything we see and hear gets filtered through our minds first, so what we see and hear isn't just what is there or said. Things get added, subtracted, altered to fit what we expect or what we want.
Babel. (or maybe just me finally getting near the end of Stephenson's _Snow Crash_)
The "mind filter". Likely Buddhist in concept.
Prejudice, experience, preferences, desires, everything we see and hear gets filtered through our minds first, so what we see and hear isn't just what is there or said. Things get added, subtracted, altered to fit what we expect or what we want.
Babel. (or maybe just me finally getting near the end of Stephenson's _Snow Crash_)
Comments on this story are closed.