Hug Your Favorite FOSS Contributors Today (On the Internet, no one can see you nod)
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Comments (68)
Sure I complain a lot, but I still know FOSS is huge
Quoting:I kinda feel it's my duty to complain
Yes it is! As they say, you can contribute other things than code - like complaints :)
And, of course, an obligatory "thank you!" from mee too :)
Thanks Carla
46 earlier comments in the full thread.
gus3 -
Don't conflate evidence and conclusion, and don't forget that you can prove a point with one really strong piece of evidence or a lot of smaller pieces that, when assembled, make the conclusion inescapable to a reasonable mind.
Don't conflate evidence and conclusion, and don't forget that you can prove a point with one really strong piece of evidence or a lot of smaller pieces that, when assembled, make the conclusion inescapable to a reasonable mind.
dino -
If I'm reading this correctly, we agree that the assertion is evidence (actually, testimony), but we kind of disagree on the path to the conclusion.
If I'm reading this correctly, we agree that the assertion is evidence (actually, testimony), but we kind of disagree on the path to the conclusion.
Gus3 -
To know that, we would need to know the specifics of the situation.
To know that, we would need to know the specifics of the situation.
Which is what I said in my "under duress" comment.
Okay, we're on the same page, good enough for me.
Okay, we're on the same page, good enough for me.
Quoting:As with caitlyn, I think that's overstating the case, tracyanne.
Yes JD I am overstating the case. I'm overstating it because I disagree that the the alleged culprit has as much to do with the problem as is asserted, The alleged culprit exists, as caitlyn rightly points out, in all walks of life. The real problem, I believe is that FOSS is elitist, it is allegedly a meritocracy, the best get to the top.
The problem is most people don't want to work that hard, they just want to get things tht work done, they either don't have the time or the inclination to sift through the code to work out how things work. For every Linus Torvolds or Richard Stallman or whichever boy genius you look up to there are 100.. a 1000 tracyannes, we're not brilliant, but given the right tools we can turn pretty solid code that gets the job done.
As Con Kolivas points out, he has a life, it doesn't revolve around code (and he's one of the people I think are brilliant) so what goes for him goes double for the less brilliant of us.
With Proprietary software, you might not have access to the code, but it does come with well documented APIs and toolsets that are easy to get working with, that don't take a PHD to work out how they work. Yes eventually you reach the limits of what they allow you to do with the stuff, but in the meantime you can get some actual work done, you don't have to prove how 733t you are. And at the end of the day you ca ngo home and forget about it.
Yes people do get paid to work in FOSS these days, but the majority don't. I personally would love to contribute to some projects, or even start a small project or two myself. But I can't get the bl**dy tools to work, and the APIs are either badly documented or just obscure. I'd do some stuff with GTK+ and C# except I can't work out how to make GTK widgets work with my code - once again bad or obscure documentation. Windows forms might be cr*p, they are actually, but at least they are well documented and accessible, so it's easy to write GUI applications that work.
Ask yourself how many other people, man and women, have simply given up because of the elitist and yes unwelcoming attitudes of FOSS.
FOSS might be all about the code, but because of that attitude there are like very large numbers of potential contributors that don't, Women, I think are less likely to be impressed by that attitude than men.
@tracyanne
Bruce recently published an article on the abysmal quality of some (most?) FOSS projects and I wholeheartedly agreed with him (check out the comments). Again, shouting on the sideline doesn't change too much. Some of you may know I have a particular fancy for Forth and most Forths are very 1337. So I wrote a primer for it that has consequently been distributed with several Forths and inspired a brand new primer by another vendor.
For my project I need a few cross compilers and I came around a very good one which was poorly documented. I wrote an article about it and afterwards (in collaboration with the author) I made it into a small tutorial.
Simply crying "fire!" and expecting somebody else will change won't change a lot in the whole scheme of things. Taking action does, even if it is hard. Crying "fire" and giving only a whole bunch of excuses why you shouldn't do anything is something that irritates me very much. Giving up after trying very hard is better, changing the things you want to change is best.
I'm not seeking praise, I just try to do small things for those causes I find important and I expect the same of all those who are part of the community or claim to be sympathetic. FOSS will only live as long things get DONE, not because some blogs are written. So, before one writes a blog, he/she should ask him/herself the question "What have I done for FOSS today or the problem I want to get solved". Simply stop blaming the horses.
While rereading this entry I think I might give the impression it is addressed to you in particular, tracyanne, but believe me, that is not the case.
For my project I need a few cross compilers and I came around a very good one which was poorly documented. I wrote an article about it and afterwards (in collaboration with the author) I made it into a small tutorial.
Simply crying "fire!" and expecting somebody else will change won't change a lot in the whole scheme of things. Taking action does, even if it is hard. Crying "fire" and giving only a whole bunch of excuses why you shouldn't do anything is something that irritates me very much. Giving up after trying very hard is better, changing the things you want to change is best.
I'm not seeking praise, I just try to do small things for those causes I find important and I expect the same of all those who are part of the community or claim to be sympathetic. FOSS will only live as long things get DONE, not because some blogs are written. So, before one writes a blog, he/she should ask him/herself the question "What have I done for FOSS today or the problem I want to get solved". Simply stop blaming the horses.
While rereading this entry I think I might give the impression it is addressed to you in particular, tracyanne, but believe me, that is not the case.
FOSS attracts the socially awkward and technically gifted. It offers an outlet, a way of achieving something, of getting peer recognition. But it has a price, it mostly doesn't pay and if it offers personal benefits, they are not direct in terms of career, they have to do with acquiring skills that you can use in your paid career. Its clear that this environment is selecting for people with this combination. If they are not technically gifted, they don't get started. If they are socially well adjusted and well rounded, then they don't want to be there, they can get better returns, both social and financial, from their skills. Not always, but very often.
This is a combination that is far more common in men than women. Its also one that the average woman finds difficult to work with. Social awkwardness, bordering on autism in many cases, is also something that makes it very difficult for these guys to relate to women, whether in a work or social environment. It does lead to fraught situations, this. Its not good. I don't know what the answer is, but suspect it may only be improveable at the margins. It may be that women in FOSS really do need their own groupings, that in this particular area, we are not going to get diversity in the same way we do in commercial software development. There just are not that many obsessive women who want to do this stuff for little financial reward. Certainly, to be talented and in that category, is a gift that comes with a very high price tag.
I don't think that kommander is a gender thing. I can't make head or tail of it either. Probably it will be great when it finally gets wherever its going. And what a relief to read that someone else cannot relate to Eclipse. Don't feel like such a failure any more!
This is a combination that is far more common in men than women. Its also one that the average woman finds difficult to work with. Social awkwardness, bordering on autism in many cases, is also something that makes it very difficult for these guys to relate to women, whether in a work or social environment. It does lead to fraught situations, this. Its not good. I don't know what the answer is, but suspect it may only be improveable at the margins. It may be that women in FOSS really do need their own groupings, that in this particular area, we are not going to get diversity in the same way we do in commercial software development. There just are not that many obsessive women who want to do this stuff for little financial reward. Certainly, to be talented and in that category, is a gift that comes with a very high price tag.
I don't think that kommander is a gender thing. I can't make head or tail of it either. Probably it will be great when it finally gets wherever its going. And what a relief to read that someone else cannot relate to Eclipse. Don't feel like such a failure any more!
>This is a combination that is far more common in men than women.
Is it? I'm not convinced that's true. I do believe that we still carry some residue of societal history that has not pushed girls in the direction of certain technical disciplines, but, Let's see...
Discovery of radium -- woman First compiler -- woman First nuclear fission -- conceived by a woman, idea taken by male colleague who doesn't share credit and goes on to win a Nobel prize Experimental discovery of DNA structure? -- oops, another woman, but men went on to complete the work and win a Nobel prize (without crediting her) while she died of cancer.
And, just to ensure we don't get hung up in stereotypes,
spread-spectrum communication -- not just woman, but Hedy Lamarr. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, stereotype hounds.
Is it? I'm not convinced that's true. I do believe that we still carry some residue of societal history that has not pushed girls in the direction of certain technical disciplines, but, Let's see...
Discovery of radium -- woman First compiler -- woman First nuclear fission -- conceived by a woman, idea taken by male colleague who doesn't share credit and goes on to win a Nobel prize Experimental discovery of DNA structure? -- oops, another woman, but men went on to complete the work and win a Nobel prize (without crediting her) while she died of cancer.
And, just to ensure we don't get hung up in stereotypes,
spread-spectrum communication -- not just woman, but Hedy Lamarr. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, stereotype hounds.
Quoting:shouting on the sideline doesn't change too much.Depends on who's doing the shouting.
And it depends on how many.
Griefer.
Interesting read:
"we found that women were less interested in working in [software -]companies that contained objects stereotypically associated with CS (e.g., Star Trek poster, video games) compared to identical companies that had non-stereotypical objects (e.g., nature poster, general interest books)."
http://faculty.washington.edu/scheryan/research.htm
Conclusion is debatable (to be summarized in: "Beards attract more beards"), but study is interesting at least.
What's also interesting, is that the percentage of women playing WoW (16%) is bigger than the percentage of women among FOSS contributors, showing it's not all about Sci-Fi (Sheryan 'partly blames Star Trek').
Other than that, this discussion went into a political argument some months ago. And like most political arguments taking place on LXer I think it will only entrench people even further in their opinions. So I'll be glad to just watch and not participate this time. Maybe Mr. Bezemer (being a teacher in Venlo IIRC) can shed some light on the decoration of 'software engineering' classrooms?
"we found that women were less interested in working in [software -]companies that contained objects stereotypically associated with CS (e.g., Star Trek poster, video games) compared to identical companies that had non-stereotypical objects (e.g., nature poster, general interest books)."
http://faculty.washington.edu/scheryan/research.htm
Conclusion is debatable (to be summarized in: "Beards attract more beards"), but study is interesting at least.
What's also interesting, is that the percentage of women playing WoW (16%) is bigger than the percentage of women among FOSS contributors, showing it's not all about Sci-Fi (Sheryan 'partly blames Star Trek').
Other than that, this discussion went into a political argument some months ago. And like most political arguments taking place on LXer I think it will only entrench people even further in their opinions. So I'll be glad to just watch and not participate this time. Maybe Mr. Bezemer (being a teacher in Venlo IIRC) can shed some light on the decoration of 'software engineering' classrooms?
Quoting:we found that women were less interested in working in [software -]companies that contained objects stereotypically associated with CS (e.g., Star Trek poster, video games)I wonder what those women's reaction would be to the hiring manager at my second full-time CS gig. She was an unapologetic Star Trek fan, and had a fully-lit model of the NCC-1701 hanging from her office ceiling.
Besides, given the progressive views of Star Trek, B5, etc., I'd be surprised to find out that their associated subcultures had less of a "to all, their own" attitude.
Edit: That study says more about the attitudes and (dare I say?) prejudices of the candidates, than it does about the actual workplace mind-set.
dino,
[serious] I am now one of your fans as the result of your last post in this thread. [/serious]
But I still hate you in all the other venues.
The only thing you left out was the invitation for him [or is it a her in disguise*] to Buzz Off.
YBT
* Just to confuse us and to think most other males are jerks.
[serious] I am now one of your fans as the result of your last post in this thread. [/serious]
But I still hate you in all the other venues.
The only thing you left out was the invitation for him [or is it a her in disguise*] to Buzz Off.
YBT
* Just to confuse us and to think most other males are jerks.
dino, its the combination that is rare, not the technical skill! Carla, for instance, is not a counter-example because although technically able, she appears to have a fatal lack of social disability!
None of the women you cite were the classic nerd. There is no shortage of women with technical abilities. But what seems to be special about OSS development is the preponderance of people with both high social awkwardness and high technical skills and a certain goal orientation that amounts sometimes to obsessiveness. People like this do seem to be mostly male. And it does seem to be in the nature of the OSS ecosystem that it draws such people. We should be enormously grateful for what they produce of course, its not intended as denigration.
I suspect that the financial and career opportunities that are offered by commercial development jobs, as well as the emphasis in increasing numbers of cases on social skills and being a good team member, result in a similar disproportionate representation of people with better social skills and also good technical abilities. And maybe a different sense of proportion about balancing life and code.
None of the women you cite were the classic nerd. There is no shortage of women with technical abilities. But what seems to be special about OSS development is the preponderance of people with both high social awkwardness and high technical skills and a certain goal orientation that amounts sometimes to obsessiveness. People like this do seem to be mostly male. And it does seem to be in the nature of the OSS ecosystem that it draws such people. We should be enormously grateful for what they produce of course, its not intended as denigration.
I suspect that the financial and career opportunities that are offered by commercial development jobs, as well as the emphasis in increasing numbers of cases on social skills and being a good team member, result in a similar disproportionate representation of people with better social skills and also good technical abilities. And maybe a different sense of proportion about balancing life and code.
txt -
For a serious moment --
I'm not a fan of finding discrimination where other explanations serve more ably, but I am the father of three daughters, not to mention the son of a young widow who had to make her way in the world when it, ahem, wasn't so enlightened as it is now.
We still live in a world where some people don't believe that girls can like math (my middle daughter loves it, youngest is good at it but hates the building blocks (like memorizing times tables) that make follow-on work easier.
I have to encourage the crap out of them and generally end up having at least one good "don't be afraid to push her -- she won't get in trouble for bringing home a B" conversation with math and science teachers each year.
Kind of makes me think of my pre-IT career. I was an affirmative action/equal opportunity officer for a Fortune 500 company. Even well-meaning managers would fail to consider women for some positions because "there's a lot of travel and she has kids", or "part of that territory is a little rough".
So many obstacles have been overcome -- attitudes remain the biggest hurdle.
For a serious moment --
I'm not a fan of finding discrimination where other explanations serve more ably, but I am the father of three daughters, not to mention the son of a young widow who had to make her way in the world when it, ahem, wasn't so enlightened as it is now.
We still live in a world where some people don't believe that girls can like math (my middle daughter loves it, youngest is good at it but hates the building blocks (like memorizing times tables) that make follow-on work easier.
I have to encourage the crap out of them and generally end up having at least one good "don't be afraid to push her -- she won't get in trouble for bringing home a B" conversation with math and science teachers each year.
Kind of makes me think of my pre-IT career. I was an affirmative action/equal opportunity officer for a Fortune 500 company. Even well-meaning managers would fail to consider women for some positions because "there's a lot of travel and she has kids", or "part of that territory is a little rough".
So many obstacles have been overcome -- attitudes remain the biggest hurdle.
Quoting:So many obstacles have been overcome -- attitudes remain the biggest hurdle.
That is pretty much my entire argument in a nutshell. Indeed, some of the comments take gender stereotypes and treat them as facts. They aren't and that seems to be the crux of the issue.
caitlyn -
They are facts of the "perception is reality" variety: self-fulfilling prophecies that start with a kernel of truth, extrapolate incorrectly, and reinforce the status quo.
They are facts of the "perception is reality" variety: self-fulfilling prophecies that start with a kernel of truth, extrapolate incorrectly, and reinforce the status quo.
@hkwint
I wouldn't know about the decoration of Software Engineering classrooms, since my lectures involve mostly general project management and IT service management. However, I suspect the localities are not too different. May I add that the programming abilities of most students are abysmal, being unable to produce a simple CMDB in PHP with four or five students within four weeks? I did that in two days!
Furthermore, people within the FOSS community have the privilege of addressing me by my first name, which is: Hans. ;-)
Furthermore, people within the FOSS community have the privilege of addressing me by my first name, which is: Hans. ;-)
Quoting:And even some of your insane LXer comments...
Her insane comments are the best ones :)
Quoting:Furthermore, people within the FOSS community have the privilege of addressing me by my first name, which is: Hans.
I know, but there's a reason: You probably wouldn't believe, but at the department of 14 persons where I work now, I was the 3th Hans to join, and two other persons called Hans were working in the factory next to our office. Then our department moved to Rotterdam, where in the room next to me another Hans was already working, so now there's four of us. So I know from experience if you're not the only 'Hans' things can get pretty confusing.
A friend of mine is studying software engineering at Fontys in Venlo and also an amateur PHP-programmer before he started, I'll ask him about the time he needs to write a CMDB. Not being in an IT-related job / not having IT-education myself I don't have an idea what such a thing is - yet, but I'm going to find out!
@hkwint
A CMDB is a Configuration Management Database. When well done (which seldom happens) it is a strange beast. In essense you can definine entities (CITypes) with their own attributes which have named relations (e.g. "Is part of" - "consists of") with other CITypes. Reason for that is that (a) not every company works the same way (b) companies change, so also their information needs. If you would try to do so with a regular design you would go mad changing your application and converting your data all the time.
The design I made about ten years ago is used holding a vast amount of technical infrastructure information for a large financial institution in the Netherlands and has also been used to create a CMDB for a large government agency in the Netherlands. It consists of a dozen tables, so it's quite simple. Something a good student should be able to do in a reasonable amount of time IMHO.
If you want more info, contact me.
The design I made about ten years ago is used holding a vast amount of technical infrastructure information for a large financial institution in the Netherlands and has also been used to create a CMDB for a large government agency in the Netherlands. It consists of a dozen tables, so it's quite simple. Something a good student should be able to do in a reasonable amount of time IMHO.
If you want more info, contact me.
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But the idea that a totally free, open, collaborative effort has resulted in software that allows us to run computers free of the corporate control of the Microsofts and Apples of the world is nothing less than completely amazing.