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Tensions Between Ubuntu, Fedora Mount Over New Website
In an ideal world, free-software developers would happily get along and cooperate towards the same ends. But the world’s far from perfect, as rising tensions between the Ubuntu and Fedora camps have made clear recently in the wake of the founding a new website intended, ironically, to promote “respect” within the open-source ecosystems. Here's the story. |
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Comments (54)
Why else would they unilaterally do this
33 earlier comments in the full thread.
bigg: Since Jono admits he screwed up a tiny bit, I think they learned.
Cabreh: You really believe if Fedora would have chosen to move to Wayland first, reactions would have been different? Probably, yes, but not by more than a factor half. The 'hype' is caused because Ubuntu was first to say they'd move to Wayland, if the community would have perceived some other mayor distro being 'the first to ditch Xorg', there would've been plenty of fuss as well. And Fedora making use of Wayland, well, such is to be expected if they start developing it in first place!
However, I totally agree, lots of people read far too much in the announcement. MS clearly stated the switch could happen "several years in the future"; too few people respected that 'disclaimer' IMHO.
Also, what some people fail to notice is developers of Xorg might work on Wayland as well, and as far as I understood Wayland is only a 'possible replacement' for Xorg-server, and not for 'whole' Xorg.
Cabreh: You really believe if Fedora would have chosen to move to Wayland first, reactions would have been different? Probably, yes, but not by more than a factor half. The 'hype' is caused because Ubuntu was first to say they'd move to Wayland, if the community would have perceived some other mayor distro being 'the first to ditch Xorg', there would've been plenty of fuss as well. And Fedora making use of Wayland, well, such is to be expected if they start developing it in first place!
However, I totally agree, lots of people read far too much in the announcement. MS clearly stated the switch could happen "several years in the future"; too few people respected that 'disclaimer' IMHO.
Also, what some people fail to notice is developers of Xorg might work on Wayland as well, and as far as I understood Wayland is only a 'possible replacement' for Xorg-server, and not for 'whole' Xorg.
Kernel mode setting is already making life miserable for users of "legacy" hardware (with "legacy" meaning any hardware that doesn't happen to work with KMS, regardless of age).
TA, yes there is an answer-- evidence is something you can present to back up your assertions. Other people can look at it. You're calling Jono a liar with nothing to back it up. I know and respect Jono, and take exception to him being slimed.
The evidence is 1. that he's in a marketing position at Canonical, 2. that this whole thing fits in with how Canonical Markets itself (all combya and community.. Ubuntu the word has many connotations that speak of community), the whole Open Respect Philosophy, as published, is a very close fit to Canonical's stated aspirations regarding it's community. 3. It was done without any consultation with other Communities.
Don't try putting words in my mouth. I said:
and
I never called the man a liar. I said I don't believe it's not a Canonical Marketing exercise.
I repeat there is no good reason to believe Jono Bacon, when I see one I'll change my mind, until then, if it looks like Dog turd and smells like Dog turd, there's a damn good chance it will be Dog turd.
I don't know the bloke from Adam, so I have no good reason to believe other than what the evidence I've seen tells me. Convince me other wise with counter evidence, not assertions, and don't go attempting to put words into my mouth. People who go around doing that sort of thing usually can't back up their assertions, and so resort to personal attacks. I thought more of you than that.
Quoting:You're calling Jono a liar with nothing to back it up. I know and respect Jono, and take exception to him being slimed.
Don't try putting words in my mouth. I said:
Quoting:there is no good reason to believe Jono Bacon
and
Quoting:There is no good reason, that I've seen, to believe other than that this is part of Canonical Marketing exercise.
I never called the man a liar. I said I don't believe it's not a Canonical Marketing exercise.
I repeat there is no good reason to believe Jono Bacon, when I see one I'll change my mind, until then, if it looks like Dog turd and smells like Dog turd, there's a damn good chance it will be Dog turd.
I don't know the bloke from Adam, so I have no good reason to believe other than what the evidence I've seen tells me. Convince me other wise with counter evidence, not assertions, and don't go attempting to put words into my mouth. People who go around doing that sort of thing usually can't back up their assertions, and so resort to personal attacks. I thought more of you than that.
@Tracyanne
If a person says something and you say that statement cannot be believed, then what are you saying other than "that person is lying"? You could say, that person doesn't understand what they are talking about I guess, but that doesn't fit what you are saying. Ergo, you said Jono is a liar. There is no other interpretation.
Also, because someone works for the Public Relations department (not necessarily Marketing) doesn't naturally mean that person is always lying. Something else you seem to be saying.
And if it is a public relations exercise by Canonical/Ubuntu what is the big issue here. Going by the very regular attacks on most articles about Ubuntu maybe they think anything to help may be a good thing.
I read Aaron's article about it and I'm afraid I heartily disagree with his take on how you should react to others. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to have be brought up with the rule of respecting elders and such that I give respect to people until they show they don't deserve it. Rather than acting like a modern day child and not respecting anyone unless I think they fit my view of deserving it.
If a person says something and you say that statement cannot be believed, then what are you saying other than "that person is lying"? You could say, that person doesn't understand what they are talking about I guess, but that doesn't fit what you are saying. Ergo, you said Jono is a liar. There is no other interpretation.
Also, because someone works for the Public Relations department (not necessarily Marketing) doesn't naturally mean that person is always lying. Something else you seem to be saying.
And if it is a public relations exercise by Canonical/Ubuntu what is the big issue here. Going by the very regular attacks on most articles about Ubuntu maybe they think anything to help may be a good thing.
I read Aaron's article about it and I'm afraid I heartily disagree with his take on how you should react to others. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to have be brought up with the rule of respecting elders and such that I give respect to people until they show they don't deserve it. Rather than acting like a modern day child and not respecting anyone unless I think they fit my view of deserving it.
We're at that point where it seems I must start repeating myself, in order for those that haven't read from the begining to catch up.
> Also, because someone works for the Public Relations department (not necessarily Marketing) doesn't naturally mean that person is always lying.
No, but in my experience, it's a pretty safe bet. At least when making statements concerning their company, competitors, or the industry in which they work.
> And if it is a public relations exercise by Canonical/Ubuntu what is the big issue here.
See "hypocrisy" above.
> Maybe it's because I'm old enough to have be brought up with the rule of respecting elders...
Jono's not my elder.
> ...and such that I give respect to people until they show they don't deserve it.
People? Yes. Companies? No. Jono is a representative for Canonical. He has to demonstrate to me that he's not representing Canonical before he gets that benefit of a doubt.
> Rather than acting like a modern day child and not respecting anyone unless I think they fit my view of deserving it.
Since you were taught that they did deserve it, you're doing exactly the same thing, respecting only those you think fit your view of deserving it.
Seriously people, I haven't read the web page, and I don't really care what it says. Canonical and Jono's views on most things are completely irrelevant to me. But how obvious does it have to be?
Jono represents Canonical.
Canonical is a company, not a person.
You can't believe what companies tell you. All companies, not just Canonical. Google, IBM, Dell, Microsoft, GE, you name it. They all lie, all the time. It's in their nature.
That's all that's going on here. I currently work for Consol Energy. Even though I'm not a manager or a representative of the company, there's no way I'm going to expect anyone to take anything I say about Consol, Consol's competitors, or the oil/gas industry at face value. It would be completely unreasonable of me. Why is anyone surprised Jono gets the same treatment?
No, but in my experience, it's a pretty safe bet. At least when making statements concerning their company, competitors, or the industry in which they work.
> And if it is a public relations exercise by Canonical/Ubuntu what is the big issue here.
See "hypocrisy" above.
> Maybe it's because I'm old enough to have be brought up with the rule of respecting elders...
Jono's not my elder.
> ...and such that I give respect to people until they show they don't deserve it.
People? Yes. Companies? No. Jono is a representative for Canonical. He has to demonstrate to me that he's not representing Canonical before he gets that benefit of a doubt.
> Rather than acting like a modern day child and not respecting anyone unless I think they fit my view of deserving it.
Since you were taught that they did deserve it, you're doing exactly the same thing, respecting only those you think fit your view of deserving it.
Seriously people, I haven't read the web page, and I don't really care what it says. Canonical and Jono's views on most things are completely irrelevant to me. But how obvious does it have to be?
Jono represents Canonical.
Canonical is a company, not a person.
You can't believe what companies tell you. All companies, not just Canonical. Google, IBM, Dell, Microsoft, GE, you name it. They all lie, all the time. It's in their nature.
That's all that's going on here. I currently work for Consol Energy. Even though I'm not a manager or a representative of the company, there's no way I'm going to expect anyone to take anything I say about Consol, Consol's competitors, or the oil/gas industry at face value. It would be completely unreasonable of me. Why is anyone surprised Jono gets the same treatment?
TC -
Grand to see that the EPA (Endless Pointless Arguments) live on.
Grand to see that the EPA (Endless Pointless Arguments) live on.
@jdixon and @dinotrac
I was saying that we should be respecting others more. Now maybe you don't think that's worthwhile, I don't know. But I guess you then deserve the same treatment from others.
It is only my opinion but it seems like the point of the web site Jono set up was to respond to the many people who seem to always be attacking anything Ubuntu these days. I don't like some of the changes coming (don't know about Wayland yet, maybe it'll beat the socks off X and I'll like RedHats effort) but I see no reason to be so negative all the time. But if you're going to complain about Ubuntu wanting to use Wayland in the furture, please attack RedHat/Fedora for providing it.
One of the biggest annoyances to me is the inevitable comment to any Ubuntu related article stating that the distribution the commenter uses is so much better than Ubuntu. And the point of that is? Because it may very well NOT be better for the person writing the Ubuntu article.
My take is if you really think Canonical (Ubuntu) is evil or something then vote by not using it. Let those who want to use it do so unmolested. I promise I won't diz your choice of distribution. Please afford me, and the many Ubuntu users who actually are happy to have that distribution, the same courtesy. This was my main point. You may think it's pointless. I and others do not.
I was saying that we should be respecting others more. Now maybe you don't think that's worthwhile, I don't know. But I guess you then deserve the same treatment from others.
It is only my opinion but it seems like the point of the web site Jono set up was to respond to the many people who seem to always be attacking anything Ubuntu these days. I don't like some of the changes coming (don't know about Wayland yet, maybe it'll beat the socks off X and I'll like RedHats effort) but I see no reason to be so negative all the time. But if you're going to complain about Ubuntu wanting to use Wayland in the furture, please attack RedHat/Fedora for providing it.
One of the biggest annoyances to me is the inevitable comment to any Ubuntu related article stating that the distribution the commenter uses is so much better than Ubuntu. And the point of that is? Because it may very well NOT be better for the person writing the Ubuntu article.
My take is if you really think Canonical (Ubuntu) is evil or something then vote by not using it. Let those who want to use it do so unmolested. I promise I won't diz your choice of distribution. Please afford me, and the many Ubuntu users who actually are happy to have that distribution, the same courtesy. This was my main point. You may think it's pointless. I and others do not.
@cabreh -
Get over yourself, pal. Take a deep breath. Get somebody you love and have a nice coffee drink at a busy little coffee shop where the comings and goings of the customers fade into a nice background blur.
To quote myself from another posting on this article, though not in this thread:
Yeah... Mighty controversial, that respect stuff.
I can almost picture all of the parties standing around the comic book store and grousing to Sheldon, Leonard, and the gang.
So far as I can tell the story -- a story even the Big Bang writers might not believe -- goes like this:
1. Blogger puts up blog about how much nicer things are when people in a community treat each other with civility and respect.
2. Blogger names no names, writes nothing untoward about any individual, group, or even Linux distribution.
3. Others, deeply wounded by the idea that an individual would put a blog on the internet without their permission, attempt to externalize their internal self-destruct sequences.
Yup. Here's the key piece of information for me: Aaron Seigo doesn't like it. Must be OK.
Get over yourself, pal. Take a deep breath. Get somebody you love and have a nice coffee drink at a busy little coffee shop where the comings and goings of the customers fade into a nice background blur.
To quote myself from another posting on this article, though not in this thread:
Yeah... Mighty controversial, that respect stuff.
I can almost picture all of the parties standing around the comic book store and grousing to Sheldon, Leonard, and the gang.
So far as I can tell the story -- a story even the Big Bang writers might not believe -- goes like this:
1. Blogger puts up blog about how much nicer things are when people in a community treat each other with civility and respect.
2. Blogger names no names, writes nothing untoward about any individual, group, or even Linux distribution.
3. Others, deeply wounded by the idea that an individual would put a blog on the internet without their permission, attempt to externalize their internal self-destruct sequences.
Yup. Here's the key piece of information for me: Aaron Seigo doesn't like it. Must be OK.
"No good reason to believe" does not automatically translate into "lying". Anyone who's done time in jail or prison knows what I mean.
@gus3 -
You realize that your wording makes it nearly impossible (for a variety of reasons) to chime in and say, "Yup!"
You realize that your wording makes it nearly impossible (for a variety of reasons) to chime in and say, "Yup!"
Quoting: [...] Anyone who's done time in jail or prison knows what I mean.Breaking News!!! Another Exposé of the August Gus III Will Appear Shortly. More News at 10.
A question for the CSS gurus:
What is the correct syntax for the clangsTinCupAgainstBars attribute?
What is the correct syntax for the clangsTinCupAgainstBars attribute?
Hey nice one dinotrac. Lets go to personal attacks. That's always a good argument.
OK, I'm ending with this post.
To be on target here's a generalization: All people who write articles or editorials on the web twist the truth and use sensational headlines because they are all just prostituting themselves to get page hits.
Now that would be a ridiculous statement that would apply to several of the posters here who are making the same kind of generalization regarding people employed in the Marketing/PR groups of any organization. To say anything they say in public has to be hard to believe because of their jobs.
Well, even if some of you have perhaps once in your life written such an article doesn't mean I would assume all your articles are like that.
But, I can see it's unlikely that most of you will even see how alike those two generalizations are. Just continue pidgin holing people.
BTW, I do NOT work in Marketing or PR. I'm in IT/IS.
OK, I'm ending with this post.
To be on target here's a generalization: All people who write articles or editorials on the web twist the truth and use sensational headlines because they are all just prostituting themselves to get page hits.
Now that would be a ridiculous statement that would apply to several of the posters here who are making the same kind of generalization regarding people employed in the Marketing/PR groups of any organization. To say anything they say in public has to be hard to believe because of their jobs.
Well, even if some of you have perhaps once in your life written such an article doesn't mean I would assume all your articles are like that.
But, I can see it's unlikely that most of you will even see how alike those two generalizations are. Just continue pidgin holing people.
BTW, I do NOT work in Marketing or PR. I'm in IT/IS.
@cabreh:
Personal attacks?
You have got to be kidding me.
Don't know, but when you include me as a target in one of your posts for no reason that I can comprehend, I think you need to step back and take a deep breath.
Face it, pal, I had exactly one post in the entire thread, and it was aimed at the lovely and vivacious TuxChick, and made absolutely no reference to the topic under discussion.
Personal attacks?
You have got to be kidding me.
Don't know, but when you include me as a target in one of your posts for no reason that I can comprehend, I think you need to step back and take a deep breath.
Face it, pal, I had exactly one post in the entire thread, and it was aimed at the lovely and vivacious TuxChick, and made absolutely no reference to the topic under discussion.
Quoting: I had exactly one post in the entire thread, and it was aimed at the lovely and vivacious TuxChick, and made absolutely no reference to the topic under discussion.
Darn you Dino, there you go picking on me again... oh wait. Just like I was saying the other day, I sure do miss Dino's sagacious, informed take on topics.
> I was saying that we should be respecting others more.
Why? Is unearned respect really a virtue?
And I'm not showing any lack of resect for Jono. I'm not even discussing what he said, as I haven't read it. I'm discussing how others are reacting to what he said, and why they're doing so.
> But I guess you then deserve the same treatment from others.
It's the treatment I both expect and normally get. In most of life, respect is something you earn, not something you're granted.
> ...but I see no reason to be so negative all the time.
There will always be people who are negative. Sometimes they even have good reasons for it.
> But if you're going to complain about Ubuntu wanting to use Wayland...
I haven't complained about Ubuntu using Wayland. I've noted that the way they've decided to do so is not particularly community friendly, and contrasted it with the way at least one other distro would have done it.
> One of the biggest annoyances to me is the inevitable comment to any Ubuntu related article stating that the distribution the commenter uses is so much better than Ubuntu.
As I noted before, this always happens. It was true for Red Hat before Ubuntu came along. It will always be true for the most popular distro. And isn't this exactly the way Windows users feel about Linux?
> My take is if you really think Canonical (Ubuntu) is evil or something then vote by not using it.
First, Canonical is a company. As such it can be neither good nor evil. It can do enormous good or evil, but of itself it is neither. Secondly, I don't use Ubuntu as my distro of choice (though it is on one machine I own, since that machine came with it installed).
> Let those who want to use it do so unmolested.
Believe it or not, no one here is molesting Ubuntu users (that assumes that none of our posters are currently working for the TSA, of course). Disagreements, even strong ones, don't keep anyone from using the distro of their choice. And the person who appears to have the strongest opinion on the matter uses Ubuntu herself.
> I promise I won't diz your choice of distribution.
I thought pretty much everyone liked diz'ing Slackware. :)
Why? Is unearned respect really a virtue?
And I'm not showing any lack of resect for Jono. I'm not even discussing what he said, as I haven't read it. I'm discussing how others are reacting to what he said, and why they're doing so.
> But I guess you then deserve the same treatment from others.
It's the treatment I both expect and normally get. In most of life, respect is something you earn, not something you're granted.
> ...but I see no reason to be so negative all the time.
There will always be people who are negative. Sometimes they even have good reasons for it.
> But if you're going to complain about Ubuntu wanting to use Wayland...
I haven't complained about Ubuntu using Wayland. I've noted that the way they've decided to do so is not particularly community friendly, and contrasted it with the way at least one other distro would have done it.
> One of the biggest annoyances to me is the inevitable comment to any Ubuntu related article stating that the distribution the commenter uses is so much better than Ubuntu.
As I noted before, this always happens. It was true for Red Hat before Ubuntu came along. It will always be true for the most popular distro. And isn't this exactly the way Windows users feel about Linux?
> My take is if you really think Canonical (Ubuntu) is evil or something then vote by not using it.
First, Canonical is a company. As such it can be neither good nor evil. It can do enormous good or evil, but of itself it is neither. Secondly, I don't use Ubuntu as my distro of choice (though it is on one machine I own, since that machine came with it installed).
> Let those who want to use it do so unmolested.
Believe it or not, no one here is molesting Ubuntu users (that assumes that none of our posters are currently working for the TSA, of course). Disagreements, even strong ones, don't keep anyone from using the distro of their choice. And the person who appears to have the strongest opinion on the matter uses Ubuntu herself.
> I promise I won't diz your choice of distribution.
I thought pretty much everyone liked diz'ing Slackware. :)
I declare "Mortal Combat"
*plays funky techno fight music*
*plays funky techno fight music*
Oh gee Geeks living vigorously up to stereotypes.
Yeah...
Mighty controversial, that respect stuff.
I can almost picture all of the parties standing around the comic book store and grousing to Sheldon, Leonard, and the gang.
So far as I can tell the story -- a story even the Big Bang writers might not believe -- goes like this:
1. Blogger puts up blog about how much nicer things are when people in a community treat each other with civility and respect.
2. Blogger names no names, writes nothing untoward about any individual, group, or even Linux distribution.
3. Others, deeply wounded by the idea that an individual would put a blog on the internet without their permission, attempt to externalize their internal self-destruct sequences.
Yup. Here's the key piece of information for me: Aaron Seigo doesn't like it. Must be OK.
I can almost picture all of the parties standing around the comic book store and grousing to Sheldon, Leonard, and the gang.
So far as I can tell the story -- a story even the Big Bang writers might not believe -- goes like this:
1. Blogger puts up blog about how much nicer things are when people in a community treat each other with civility and respect.
2. Blogger names no names, writes nothing untoward about any individual, group, or even Linux distribution.
3. Others, deeply wounded by the idea that an individual would put a blog on the internet without their permission, attempt to externalize their internal self-destruct sequences.
Yup. Here's the key piece of information for me: Aaron Seigo doesn't like it. Must be OK.
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There's really no answer to that, is there? I must be wrong.