Garrett slams Ts'o as 'rape apologist'

What makes this even worse is that, in issuing his apology, Mr. T'so repeated the offensive claims. He says that he never said "rape is not a problem". That's true. He was also never accused of saying that. He is, in effect, saying the same things that Rep.Todd Aiken said, parsing rape into categories. When Mr. Aiken said what he did members of his own political party couldn't distance themselves from him and from his comments fast enough. Members of his own party asked him to drop out of the race he is in as well. What Valerie Aurora has called for regarding Mr. T'so is precisely the same sort of thing that has happened to Mr. Aiken and it's entirely appropriate.

Ted T'so's "apology" is at: http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/57296-tso... Valerie Aurora's article is at: http://adainitiative.org/2012/10/open-source-software-open-t...

This would be just more background noise of clashing nerds on the Internets, except that Ts'o is an events organizer for the Linux Foundation. Way to attract more women to events. I love his craven yes-butting-- the problem isn't his denials, strange derailments and lunatic "logic", no, it's how people perceived his wacky comments. Geeeeesh. Everyone perceived his meaning just fine, thank you.

Precisely. We've heard the same sort of comments from others before and we know perfectly well what they mean.

Rape is one of the most traumatic experiences a person can have. I say person rather than woman because men can be raped and men who suffer through that experience are even less likely to report the problem and seek help. To trivialize what rape means and to try to parse which rapes are real or legitimate and which ones somehow aren't is about the most insensitive and callous thing I can imagine. Like it or not, Mr. T'so is a public figure every bit as much as the politicians Valerie Aurora refers to, at least in the tech world. The consequences of what he has said and how he will be regarded by fellow developers will be long lasting.

Oh, and when women in FOSS talk about how hostile an environment FOSS and IT in general can be for us, this is a prime example of what we mean.

Quoting: when women in FOSS talk about how hostile an environment FOSS and IT in general can be for us, this is a prime example of what we mean.

Indeed it is. Because Ted Ts'o, along with famous whinger David Woodhouse, put on the "We don't listen to what women say, and don't believe them when we accidentally do" show. So gee, why would any woman have a problem with that. Jacinta Richardson and Matthew Garrett wrote some excellent comments.

dinotrac started an abhorrently offensive defense of Ted T'so in another thread. Please join it. These are not issues I can be unemotional about. You'll see why in the other thread.

I put in my $0.02 for what it's worth-- probably not much against such deliberate miscomprehension. Or devil's advocate, not sure which, but it's a dumb issue to play devil's advocate on.

@JaseP :

I've been through a number of traumatic experiences personally, and via family members. My first wife was raped. My mother won't talk about it, but I would almost guarantee my stepfather engaged in the practice. I do not consider it to be a trivial or laughable topic.

That said, yelling louder and screaming how offended you are doesn't make one right.

Matthew Garrett didn't bring it up again. Valerie Aurora did 10 days ago. If anyone doesn't know Valerie's family/personal history a look at her blog and website may be instructive.

From Valerie Aurora's article:

Quoting:Here’s what happened: In February 2011, on a public open source software mailing list, prominent open source software leader Theodore Y. Ts’o wrote that rape was impossible if both people were drunk enough, and that including several common kinds of rape in rape statistics could be “hyperbolic and misleading.” I won’t go into detail here because it’s pretty offensive, but the full text of two of his emails on the subject are archived here.

The post dinotrac quotes isn't the whole picture. However, his attack on anti-harrassment policies is way, way, way off base and does get to Valerie's point about the FOSS community being hostile to women.

Read the e-mail Sam Varghese linked. Ts'o is parsing rape into real and not-so-real just like Todd Aiken did. Sorry, once again, that is indefensible.

Oh, and some of you will think hell has frozen over when I say this, but: Kudos to Sam Varghese for his excellent reporting in both of his articles on this issue.

Quoting: ... My mother won't talk about it, ...

Dino, ... you're own words ... & exactly my point. Different people have different ways of dealing with situations.

But getting back to the real core of the issue that sparked Ts'o's comment... They were talking about ways to make the developer community events more friendly to women,...and Ts'o opens up with a diatribe that might remind one of Archie Bunker ("All in the Family") giving a keynote speech at a civil rights convention ... It essentially made Ts'o a poster child for what's wrong with the community.

@caitlyn -

Who was attacking anti-harrassment policies?

@JaseP --

Well, T'So's posts were certainly ill-considered.

What's really odd, if you read them, is that he starts off saying that even G-rated presentations might not be woman-friendly enough, that it's possible to be very offensive without resorting to semi-pornographic material.

I would like to think that he was sorta kinda walking the path walked by the ACLU when they defend Klan members and Nazis, except that nothing in the couple of posts I've seen defends rapists.

CAN I PLEASE MAKE THIS POINT ONCE AGAIN: A DEBATE ON RAPE ETHICS HAS NO PLACE ON LXer .......OR AT LEAST AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. IT HAS BECOME EMOTIVE, ATTACKING, AND PERSONAL. ADDITIONALLY, PERSONAL BACKGROUND ASPECTS ARE BEING BROUGHT IN WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE IN ANY CASE.

I would appreciate it if everybody took a deep breath, stood back, turned off......and quit both of these threads and let them lie........

@rid --

Not sure I agree with your primay pont from a TOS standpoint, given the originating context.

But one place I really don't agree with you is the nature of the thread -- even @caitlyn's second post was constructive and civil.

For that matter -- her first post was also constructive and civil up to a point.

And -- hey, people are allowed to have strong feelings. In terms of internetland, she exercised considerable restraint.

I read the original thread. I reas Ms. Aurora's article. I make the following observations:

1. Mr. T'so was commenting on the unclear definition of the word rape as used by some commenters and studies.

2. Mr. T'so never said that, No did not mean No. Nor did he say that rape was impossible while drunk.

3. Mr. T'so suggested a scenario where two people are drunk and engage in sex. He does not suggest that either of these hypothetical people has said no. What he did say is that being drunk, means they cannot legally concent.

4. Mr. T'so contrast the above scenario with a physical attach at knife point and forced sex and notes that both these are being labeled as rape, though their character is much different.

5. Mr. T'so made the point to question some of the statistics being thrown around in the thread.

As far as I can tell, this does not make Mr. T'so a "rape appollogist" or anything similar. He was pointing out scare mongering.

One can not effectively discuss an issue with hyperbole as the main course of discussion.

And finally, if someone's feelings are hurt just discussing a topic, then I feel sorry for them. If a subject can not be discussed, then there is no possible resolution.

Okay Dino......the problem is that perception is in the eye of the beholder and from where I stood, what I described above is what I saw. I will admit freely that I used bold face and capitals because I was shouting......but that's because all I could see was a deep and emotive conflict between erst-while good friends, and if that's how I could see it, others would see it the same way. And the last thing any of us want, is for LXer to have any stain of any form upon it.

On the TOS standpoint, I wouldn't like to argue one way or another, but as far as I personally am concerned, a rape ethics debate just isn't computing. And no, I'm not being a wowser on this. I have extremely strong views on rape and what I would like to do to a convicted rapist involves a very rusty, blunt knife with a serrate edge and soprano singing would be the least of his worries.....there !! I think I have expressed a very strong point of view in non-emotive and civil language.

However, I say again, I wish for friendship's sake we could all put this matter to rest. I don't ever want to see it enter LXer's blogs again. As a candid comment, the other thread on this topic between Caitlyn and Tuxchick left me feeling embarrassed that I accidentally had seen very, very personal emails between two women and that they were not for general publication. As I said, perception is in the eye of the beholder.

> Ts'o is parsing rape into real and not-so-real just like Todd Aiken did. Sorry, once again, that is indefensible.

You mean the same way Whoopi Goldberg did?

It's not just a FOSS problem, and not just a problem men have.

Good lord. Dino, Trobe524, is what Ts'o said really that unclear to you? It seems so. Or you're bored and stirring the pot. Or playing devil's advocate for some incredibly stupid and indefensible comments. At any rate I'm chiming in here just long enough to say you're way off base, and I don't care why, and if you really feel that way I don't care to talk to you. This isn't an idle thought exercise, as expressed by the odious Ts'o, but a painful and important subject that affects real people every day. It's not a joke, and it's not trivial, and I don't care to associate with people who have so little humanity.

@tc --

If something you have read in my posts makes you feel that way, I cannot believe that you are reading them with clear eyes. That said, I am not going to let years of liking you evaporate over that.

On a much brighter topic --

My wife just called a VERY COOL (geeky cool, anyway) event being held a couple of weeks from now at Fermilab -- the world's former top physics hot spot. Five physics will be engaging in a "physics slam" -- presenting complex topics in a clear and engaging way to the lay audience.

Don't know how they choose a winner, but the audience has got to come out ahead on that one.

dino, for the first time I wish we had a 'block user' feature.

caitlyn wrote: Let me say with absolute certainty that you do not know what you are talking about and neither does Ted T'so. What he wrote was utterly indefensible.

I'd like to reiterate that. What he [Ted T'so] wrote was utterly indefensible.

My last thought-- if anyone is seriously wondering what is wrong with Ts'os comments, just read the thread. It's all there. Oh I know, reading before commenting is all backwards and wrong, but I expect some will find it informative http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/ted_mail/index.html

And Garrett's blog, and Valerie's-- it's all there.

I am glad for being speechless on this subject.

Sigh.

So much heat. So little light.

Quoting:Sigh.

So much heat. So little light.

Make that a deep, deep sigh.

Some people are trying to raise concerns about what the facts are/how to determine what the facts are and how these rather slippery facts are presented. The other side are interpreting that as an insensitive attack on their feelings and perhaps their personal experience, or even their motives -- in effect. as an attack on their legitimacy and/or their legitimate concerns.

The opposing parties appear to be talking past each other. And one side is not listening to what the other side is actually saying, while simultaneously complaining that the other side isn't listening to them.

This isn't a discussion, it's a Rorschach Test. In a mirror-maze.

@BernardSwiss.......Amen to that.

Well Bernard if there is no consent it is rape... no matter how drunk either or both parties are. Ted T'so is utterly and irrevocably wrong to even suggest that anything different is the case. Whatever else anyone is attempting to discover, define, justify, or discuss, Ted T'so is simply wrong to suggest that rape can't occur when both parties are drunk.