- Site menu:
- Latest Discussions
- Latest Newswire
- Archives
- Submit Story
- Story HOWTO
- Syndicate
- E-mail Alerts
Female dev asks Torvalds to curb list abuse
|
|
|
Comments (27)
7 earlier comments in the full thread.
> Um, no. Praise in public, correct in private, document when necessary.
While I agree in general, when the business is conducted in a public mailing list I'm not sure that's a workable policy.
While I agree in general, when the business is conducted in a public mailing list I'm not sure that's a workable policy.
> Um, no. Praise in public, correct in private, document when necessary.
Linus's point is that he doesn't agree with that philosophy. You might be right if you care about people feeling bad about being ticked off in public, but there are a lot of cultures where this is *not* the norm, thinking also of the armed forces where getting a strip torn off is generally in front of everyone else as an example.
In the west, we are culturally trained to try not to offend people publicly because it is "polite".
However, we should be cautious about assuming that our ways are the same as everyone else's ways.
As tracyanne often used to point out, in Oz they are very verbal and almost brutal in the way that they speak to each other, but in their view, that is open and honest: it's their culture.
Linus's point is that he doesn't agree with that philosophy. You might be right if you care about people feeling bad about being ticked off in public, but there are a lot of cultures where this is *not* the norm, thinking also of the armed forces where getting a strip torn off is generally in front of everyone else as an example.
In the west, we are culturally trained to try not to offend people publicly because it is "polite".
However, we should be cautious about assuming that our ways are the same as everyone else's ways.
As tracyanne often used to point out, in Oz they are very verbal and almost brutal in the way that they speak to each other, but in their view, that is open and honest: it's their culture.
I enjoy a good Linus rant as entertainment but I sympathize with the person raising the complaint. There are paid professionals working on the kernel which we all benefit from and that type of behavior would not be tolerated in a professional setting regardless of the cultural differences. In many areas that type of correspondence would qualify as a hostile work environment, and the answer to that isn't as simplistic as saying go make your own OS.
There is no doubt that Linus's rants are a direct link back to the early days of Linux where it was a less commercial project than it is now, but the angry alpha geek of the Internet role isn't conducive to more corporate backing of development, which we have benefited from.
I believe it was quite appropriate of this lady to speak up and challenge Linus on this.
There is no doubt that Linus's rants are a direct link back to the early days of Linux where it was a less commercial project than it is now, but the angry alpha geek of the Internet role isn't conducive to more corporate backing of development, which we have benefited from.
I believe it was quite appropriate of this lady to speak up and challenge Linus on this.
> I believe it was quite appropriate of this lady to speak up and challenge Linus on this.
There's nothing wrong with her raising the issue. But there's also nothing wrong with him stating his opinion of the complaint. In any case, I wouldn't count on Linus changing.
There's nothing wrong with her raising the issue. But there's also nothing wrong with him stating his opinion of the complaint. In any case, I wouldn't count on Linus changing.
> There's nothing wrong with her raising the issue. But there's also nothing wrong with him stating his opinion of the complaint. In any case, I wouldn't count on Linus changing.
@jdixon,
Seems to me also that the most likely scnario is Torvalds NOT changing, or maybe changing for only a short moment to halt the current slew of Manners critics. After all, he IS the creator and Benevolent Dictator-for-life of the Linux kernel. And a d$%n good one too! He's Walked the Major Contributions' Walk rather than Talked the Nobody-Ms-Manners Talk. For good or for bad (many of us think for good here), he's made the choice of being most EFFECTIVE as a coder and the Linux kernel's "Project Manager" rather than being more effective as a PR spokesperson or salesperson.
2c
@jdixon,
Seems to me also that the most likely scnario is Torvalds NOT changing, or maybe changing for only a short moment to halt the current slew of Manners critics. After all, he IS the creator and Benevolent Dictator-for-life of the Linux kernel. And a d$%n good one too! He's Walked the Major Contributions' Walk rather than Talked the Nobody-Ms-Manners Talk. For good or for bad (many of us think for good here), he's made the choice of being most EFFECTIVE as a coder and the Linux kernel's "Project Manager" rather than being more effective as a PR spokesperson or salesperson.
2c
No, notbob is right. Linus didn't ask anything to that person.
Quoting:In the west, we are culturally trained to try not to offend people publicly because it is "polite". However, we should be cautious about assuming that our ways are the same as everyone else's ways.
i think that deserves to be qualified. having lived and traveled in several countries, i have a bit of experience with this. the most polite western country to live in was the US. coming from europe i found it refreshing to go shopping and not have to deal with grumpy sales people. new zealand was also polite and i am willing to ascribe politeness as part of the english-language culture. central europe was much less so. here i found people in the southeast more polite than the northwest. (there may be something about the cold that makes people grumpy ;-)
however none of this compares to asia where being polite is the most important aspect of any relationship. being embarassed (losing face) or embarrassing someone else is the worst thing that can happen and it can cause the end of a relationship.
nowhere however i experienced cursing at others as culturally acceptable (including finland and sweden). some people use swear-words in a casual manner (like they don't actually mean it), some apologize after, some avoid them, some call others out, some ignore them.
i don't have any specific stories because i have not noticed any exceptional behavior. it may be that i instinctively avoid company where cursing is the norm, but if it was a cultural thing i believe i should have noticed.
greetings, eMBee.
But we have to admit one thing : if Linus was to be amenable to any request by politeness, we wouldn't have been here discussing because the Linux OS wouldn't have been a reality, it would not have survived more than one or two years. One main problem is the human nature, many people are motivated by egoistic ends, and by the quest of greatness. Many people want to have their names in the list of contributors, perhaps even to top the list. Linus is in a situation where he must run as a living compiler, one single error, inconsistency, lack of logic... stop, review your code, your concept, your objectives... your mind. We have to do with the downside of doing such a job.
But Linus isn't bullying or "abusing" anybody.
He isn't even resorting to "strong language" except when he has to repeat himself (ie. the point didn't get through the first time, when it was said less forcefully).
He's not attacking individual people -- he's attacking bad code and mistaken thinking. He's not spewing bile left, right and straight ahead at any thing or any one that he doesn't like. He saves that for when simple criticism doesn't work.
At least, that's been the case every time I've read a story about one of Linus's "explosions", and I've consequently taken the trouble to look at the thread in which it occurred -- so context matters. Of course some people have trouble distinguishing the difference, but Linus does take some care to not make direct personal insults. And of course, people get their feelings hurt anyways.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Linux kernel development isn't a corporate AGM, or a corporate press conference, or a sales call -- it's a workshop.
The work in question is right there in plain view for everyone to see, including those who have to deal with if it's sub par. And in this case, the workshop is open to the public, and discussions that might be kept behind closed conference-room doors and private managers' office one-on-ones in a corporate office are not hidden away -- and can't be hidden away -- the same way in an online mailing list.
Linus is on record here that he sees this as more a benefit than a drawback, and too bad if corporate types aren't accustomed to such openness -- it puts a limit on certain kinds of "office politics", and that's a Good Thing.
He isn't even resorting to "strong language" except when he has to repeat himself (ie. the point didn't get through the first time, when it was said less forcefully).
He's not attacking individual people -- he's attacking bad code and mistaken thinking. He's not spewing bile left, right and straight ahead at any thing or any one that he doesn't like. He saves that for when simple criticism doesn't work.
At least, that's been the case every time I've read a story about one of Linus's "explosions", and I've consequently taken the trouble to look at the thread in which it occurred -- so context matters. Of course some people have trouble distinguishing the difference, but Linus does take some care to not make direct personal insults. And of course, people get their feelings hurt anyways.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Linux kernel development isn't a corporate AGM, or a corporate press conference, or a sales call -- it's a workshop.
The work in question is right there in plain view for everyone to see, including those who have to deal with if it's sub par. And in this case, the workshop is open to the public, and discussions that might be kept behind closed conference-room doors and private managers' office one-on-ones in a corporate office are not hidden away -- and can't be hidden away -- the same way in an online mailing list.
Linus is on record here that he sees this as more a benefit than a drawback, and too bad if corporate types aren't accustomed to such openness -- it puts a limit on certain kinds of "office politics", and that's a Good Thing.
Nicely said, Bernard.
This isn't the Ladie's Afternoon Tea, it's down and dirty reality. Like hungry wolves, companies like M$ and SCO are hungrily drooling for any opportunity to chomp and render upstart Linux. It's taken hard work and unwavering meticulous attention to detail for Linux to get where it is. Fine, let anyone contribute, but this is no time for half-A wannabes. And ladies, you can leave the C-card at home. You gals wanna be respected as equals? Then get serious. Take the verbal flogging and move on. No time for this deferential double standard nonsense.
This isn't the Ladie's Afternoon Tea, it's down and dirty reality. Like hungry wolves, companies like M$ and SCO are hungrily drooling for any opportunity to chomp and render upstart Linux. It's taken hard work and unwavering meticulous attention to detail for Linux to get where it is. Fine, let anyone contribute, but this is no time for half-A wannabes. And ladies, you can leave the C-card at home. You gals wanna be respected as equals? Then get serious. Take the verbal flogging and move on. No time for this deferential double standard nonsense.
changing the subject a little bit to female participation in free software development.
i'd like to completely reject that notion. i want women to join free software development as the persons they are, not some forced tomboys that have to pretend to like being treated rough whether they like it or not.
equality between men and women means equal rights, and equal respect, not equal behavior or equal character.
if we want a balanced free software community as we want a balanced society, then we need more female characteristics like compassion and kindness and less male dominance.
to give a comparison, people often call for more women to participate in government. after all, they make up 50% of a country's citizens. and in my home country once a woman was a candidate for president. my mother rejected her because she demonstrated the same male characteristics as her counterparts and thus was not representative of women at all.
i want more women in free software because free software should reach all of society. but this requires that people join free software development as the persons they are, and not be expected to change just to be able to fit in. on the contrary, if we want more women then we must change and make them welcome.
greetings, eMBee.
Quoting:This isn't the Ladie's Afternoon Tea(sic)is precisely one of the problems. this statement effectively says that free software development (or linux kernel development) is not for women. it is expecting that in order to be respected, women should behave like men. and not behaving like a man is not being serious.
i'd like to completely reject that notion. i want women to join free software development as the persons they are, not some forced tomboys that have to pretend to like being treated rough whether they like it or not.
equality between men and women means equal rights, and equal respect, not equal behavior or equal character.
if we want a balanced free software community as we want a balanced society, then we need more female characteristics like compassion and kindness and less male dominance.
to give a comparison, people often call for more women to participate in government. after all, they make up 50% of a country's citizens. and in my home country once a woman was a candidate for president. my mother rejected her because she demonstrated the same male characteristics as her counterparts and thus was not representative of women at all.
i want more women in free software because free software should reach all of society. but this requires that people join free software development as the persons they are, and not be expected to change just to be able to fit in. on the contrary, if we want more women then we must change and make them welcome.
greetings, eMBee.
mbaehrlxer wrote:this statement effectively says that free software development (or linux kernel development) is not for women. it is expecting that in order to be respected, women should behave like men.
Perhaps that's what it sez to you, but It's precisely what I studiously avoided saying. I'm saying this is a no-holds barred fight and sniveling about manners is a distraction. You think M$ gave a flying fig about female sensibilities when it went into foreign ISO voting rooms and lobbied for OOXML? Not bloody likely.
Besides, this sorta nonsense is jes a control tactic. "Everybody stop and look at me cuz I'm offended!". I accomplishes nothing and only creates turmoil. In that, she has succeeded brilliantly. No doubt it has also created an atmosphere of fear and distrust among her fellow contributors. "Am I next?" "Did I say something offensive?" Not good mojo.
>changing the subject a little bit :
Let's go.
> if we want a balanced free software community as we want a balanced society : Why ? I prefer the best to hold key positions, not because he/she is male/female, or he/she is older or he/she is high born or he/she takes a trip when thinking at noble values...
>equality between men and women means equal rights, and equal respect, not equal behavior or equal character : No, you want to sail in the deep sea ? Get prepared first.
>this sorta nonsense is jes a control tactic : True.
When you'll be at war, you won't think this way, because then, your enemies would be delighted to meet with you.
> if we want a balanced free software community as we want a balanced society : Why ? I prefer the best to hold key positions, not because he/she is male/female, or he/she is older or he/she is high born or he/she takes a trip when thinking at noble values...
>equality between men and women means equal rights, and equal respect, not equal behavior or equal character : No, you want to sail in the deep sea ? Get prepared first.
>this sorta nonsense is jes a control tactic : True.
When you'll be at war, you won't think this way, because then, your enemies would be delighted to meet with you.
I have no idea why this has to be about gender. I think that just sucks. It could have very easily been a man that said the same thing as did the woman. Although I kinda agree with Linus, I'm not there so don't really know enough to comment on his demeaner. But the demeaner here reads to me as pretty close to chauvinistic. I'm sure you'll have ready defenses but I'm not going to buy it.
Sarah Sharp never made it about gender or about other minorities. She specifically stated that was NOT what her complaint was about. Sam Varghese putting "Female" in the headline injected gender when the whole debate had nothing to do with gender. Those trying to make it a gender issue in this thread are throwing in red herrings.
Anyone who has been an effective manager will tell you, professional courtesy will get you better results than yelling and screaming and ranting. Linux Torvalds may be a brilliant developer but he is lousy at dealing with people, a trait common to many very bright technical people. Sarah Sharp called him on it. I agree with her completely. However, at the end of the day, it's still his show and she has the right to decide between two choices: 1) put up with it -or- 2) walk away. Those are the only choices available in this case.
I am about as outspoken as anyone on the planet when it comes to sexism in IT and more specifically in the FOSS community. This is not an example of sexism. This is Linus being Linus. By now anyone who contemplates working on the kernel really should know that his outbursts are part of the package.
Anyone who has been an effective manager will tell you, professional courtesy will get you better results than yelling and screaming and ranting. Linux Torvalds may be a brilliant developer but he is lousy at dealing with people, a trait common to many very bright technical people. Sarah Sharp called him on it. I agree with her completely. However, at the end of the day, it's still his show and she has the right to decide between two choices: 1) put up with it -or- 2) walk away. Those are the only choices available in this case.
I am about as outspoken as anyone on the planet when it comes to sexism in IT and more specifically in the FOSS community. This is not an example of sexism. This is Linus being Linus. By now anyone who contemplates working on the kernel really should know that his outbursts are part of the package.
I recall a passage from the George C. Scott movie, "Patton", a paraphrase of:
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight its way out of a piss-soaked paper bag. ... As for the types of comments I make, sometimes I just, By God, get carried away with my own eloquence."
Seriously, this whole tempest in a teapot (not meaning to extend the tea party metaphor) wouldn't be so silly if,
1) The offending matter was a surprise 2) The offending matter had been directed at the offended
Since neither of these is true, then the offended individual would be better served to join a project more amenable to her sensibilities.
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight its way out of a piss-soaked paper bag. ... As for the types of comments I make, sometimes I just, By God, get carried away with my own eloquence."
Seriously, this whole tempest in a teapot (not meaning to extend the tea party metaphor) wouldn't be so silly if,
1) The offending matter was a surprise 2) The offending matter had been directed at the offended
Since neither of these is true, then the offended individual would be better served to join a project more amenable to her sensibilities.
I don't think technical excellence is only possible from a management perspective when you're an @sshole.
> I don't think technical excellence is only possible from a management perspective when you're an @sshole.
Sorry, Steven: not sure what you mean there. Could you rephrase?
Sorry, Steven: not sure what you mean there. Could you rephrase?
there is direct transparancy
and then there is indirect secrecy
do you want to interpret or know?
and then there is indirect secrecy
do you want to interpret or know?
Post a comment
A free account is needed to post. Write your comment here first: your text is kept in this browser while you sign up or log in, and is waiting for you when you come back.
Your message:Markdown: **bold**, *italic*, [text](https://link), - lists, > quotes, $x^2$ for math. Formatting help
Sign up and post (it is free) or Log in and post
And you'd better make sure you know the meaning of the words you use, or it will come back to haunt you.
(Bitter? Me?)