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Mozilla Thunderbird 24.2.0 Officially Lands in Ubuntu
Officially released by Mozilla on December 10, 2013, the Mozilla Thunderbird 24.2.0 email client is a bugfix release that fixes an issue where long email messages that had multiple signatures might no longer be readable, fixes an issue where users were not able to edit account settings in various non-standard configurations of local folder setups, as well as several security issues. |
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Comments (60)
40 earlier comments in the full thread.
Exactly, Ridcully. When you want people to use your creations you have to build them to be useful to the actual users. That's what makes successful FOSS projects successful, and everything else too, from clothing to homes to cars to books to everything.
> Frankly, that is arrogant and thoughtless on their part.
And there you have the summation of both KDE and Gnome development over the past several years. :(
And there you have the summation of both KDE and Gnome development over the past several years. :(
Quoting: Again, a choice has been taken away from me.
Quoting:It doesn't look to me like anyone has been denying them their choice.
One's Choice/Freedom ends at the Choice/Freedom of others. There is no absolute Freedom, it simply doesn't exist.
Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail.
When we committed to using FOSS, we knew very well that it is evolutionary and software is inevitably going to change. Developers could accommodate as much as they can, but sometimes tough decisions have to made.
Never know, things might change again.
Quoting:Why don't you do that? I'm sure Ridcully would be happy to use it again if it's possible.
No enough spare time, When I have it, I will be glad to do that for Ridcully,
> Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail.
And if you have to give up KMail, you might as well give up KDE while you're at it. There are multiple alternatives, after all.
Though to be fair, with Gnome following in KDE's footsteps and ignoring their existing user base with the development of Gnome 3, fewer than there once were.
And if you have to give up KMail, you might as well give up KDE while you're at it. There are multiple alternatives, after all.
Though to be fair, with Gnome following in KDE's footsteps and ignoring their existing user base with the development of Gnome 3, fewer than there once were.
Fettoosh, I see you're still stuck in the same old invalid "take it or leave it haha too bad luser" philosophy.
@Fettoosh.......
I disagree with you again however. This is not "developers accomodating the users as much as they can", this is the developers doing the complete opposite and either removing previous choice of the users, or adding on aspects that the users never wanted. And as for "accomodating the users".....how ? Did they survey "we humble users" to find out what we wanted ? I cannot recall being asked for my opinions, although I gave them my views on the KWallet business a year or so ago and was essentially told to shut up and go away by a member of the KMail team. In my very humble opinion the KMail developers should realise that is not a good way to win friends and influence people.
I don't want to get into a serious brawl with the KMail development team, but somehow, someway, surely a thread such as this might get into their consciousness and indicate to them that things are not all "smelling of roses" in the KMail user camp. It's not just me who has this opinion either...If it was, then I'd be the first to say I'm a grouchy old "so 'n so" who is whinging because his favourite toy has lost a wheel. But that is not the case. When you get person after person of the high calibre of the Linux users who have contributed to this debate mostly picking up a common "thread", then something is terribly wrong with either or both KMail and its development processes.
And of course there are alternatives to KMail, I know that already......and why do you think that I am already exploring those possibilities (eg Thunderbird) as I have indicated in one of my posts above ? My irritation is that if the KMail developers were really offering good user-based choice in the operation of their software, I wouldn't have to do that in the first place !!
I am seriously considering writing an article based on this thread and what it is exposing about the KMail team's concepts, and as an "out of the left field" extra, the "kpat" card games package which continues to annoy me enormously because it is to me a classic example of the extremes that are possible through software "overdevelopment". The common thread in both is that the developers continue to develop until the elegance and usefulness of the original package is lost.
Post Script.
Fettoosh, I re-read your post above and hit something which I again quote here because its implications startled me:
You appear to be saying that the KMail team's removal of choice doesn't matter because the KMail team gives me the freedom to reject their product and use something else instead. Are you implying that is what the KMail team actually wants as a user option ? Probably not.....but it is an interpretation that is open to the reader. Almost as if the KMail team itself was saying: "You don't like our product, well, big deal. Ha ha....go use something else." And now I am echoing Tuxchick in her comments above.
Quoting:Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail.And in those words, Fettoosh, you acknowledge that I am correct in saying that some of my choice has been removed. Thankyou at least for taking that step.
I disagree with you again however. This is not "developers accomodating the users as much as they can", this is the developers doing the complete opposite and either removing previous choice of the users, or adding on aspects that the users never wanted. And as for "accomodating the users".....how ? Did they survey "we humble users" to find out what we wanted ? I cannot recall being asked for my opinions, although I gave them my views on the KWallet business a year or so ago and was essentially told to shut up and go away by a member of the KMail team. In my very humble opinion the KMail developers should realise that is not a good way to win friends and influence people.
I don't want to get into a serious brawl with the KMail development team, but somehow, someway, surely a thread such as this might get into their consciousness and indicate to them that things are not all "smelling of roses" in the KMail user camp. It's not just me who has this opinion either...If it was, then I'd be the first to say I'm a grouchy old "so 'n so" who is whinging because his favourite toy has lost a wheel. But that is not the case. When you get person after person of the high calibre of the Linux users who have contributed to this debate mostly picking up a common "thread", then something is terribly wrong with either or both KMail and its development processes.
And of course there are alternatives to KMail, I know that already......and why do you think that I am already exploring those possibilities (eg Thunderbird) as I have indicated in one of my posts above ? My irritation is that if the KMail developers were really offering good user-based choice in the operation of their software, I wouldn't have to do that in the first place !!
I am seriously considering writing an article based on this thread and what it is exposing about the KMail team's concepts, and as an "out of the left field" extra, the "kpat" card games package which continues to annoy me enormously because it is to me a classic example of the extremes that are possible through software "overdevelopment". The common thread in both is that the developers continue to develop until the elegance and usefulness of the original package is lost.
Post Script.
Fettoosh, I re-read your post above and hit something which I again quote here because its implications startled me:
Quoting:Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail.
You appear to be saying that the KMail team's removal of choice doesn't matter because the KMail team gives me the freedom to reject their product and use something else instead. Are you implying that is what the KMail team actually wants as a user option ? Probably not.....but it is an interpretation that is open to the reader. Almost as if the KMail team itself was saying: "You don't like our product, well, big deal. Ha ha....go use something else." And now I am echoing Tuxchick in her comments above.
Been using Thunderbird pretty much since it came into existence and still am.
> Are you implying that is what the KMail team actually wants as a user option ?
That seems to be the only reasonable interpretation of his comment, yes. If you don't like it, leave it.
Thunderbird, Sylpheed, and Claws (a derivative of Sylpheed, as I believe was mentioned above) all seem to be good alternatives. Even Evolution had it's good points, but it's so tied to Gnome that I've given up on it. Now that I finally realized all I need to do to get Thunderbird to work with my normal mail spool is to enable the imap server on my machine and connect to it, I'm happy with it.
That seems to be the only reasonable interpretation of his comment, yes. If you don't like it, leave it.
Thunderbird, Sylpheed, and Claws (a derivative of Sylpheed, as I believe was mentioned above) all seem to be good alternatives. Even Evolution had it's good points, but it's so tied to Gnome that I've given up on it. Now that I finally realized all I need to do to get Thunderbird to work with my normal mail spool is to enable the imap server on my machine and connect to it, I'm happy with it.
I've been considering writing on KMail, but as I said to Bob, if I do, I'd better get things right and here's an example of how you can be caught. As a correction to what I said above about KMail 1.13.6 and exporting files, I have finally found out (after 2-3 years of using this version), how you do it and one kicks oneself when one finds out because once you know what to do, it is obvious and everybody sorta kinda looks at you and reassesses your intelligence levels - me included.
First, there is no archiving or export option available from the main menu bar - and where else would you go if you were looking for this ? Further, if you right click on "Local Folders" in the left hand side menu tree, you get a submenu which is different - but again, there is no export option. Persevere though and right click on each of the subordinate folders (inbox, outbox, sent-mail, etc. etc.) and you WILL get an archive option which produces a zipped up file for each subordinate folder in turn. You cannot simplify and run the whole lot at once by exporting "Local Folders" as a single massed file archive, but at least there is an export function. I haven't yet tried it out by importing the results folder by folder into a later KMail version, but it's an area that is wide open now for evaluation/exploration.
My apologies KMail team on this one archiving aspect. The function was there all the time; it was just that I wasn't looking in the right place. It doesn't alter what you said on this aspect Tuxchick, but it is satisfying to know that there IS a way to slowly get earlier emails into the later KMail versions.....or at least that's how it seems now.
First, there is no archiving or export option available from the main menu bar - and where else would you go if you were looking for this ? Further, if you right click on "Local Folders" in the left hand side menu tree, you get a submenu which is different - but again, there is no export option. Persevere though and right click on each of the subordinate folders (inbox, outbox, sent-mail, etc. etc.) and you WILL get an archive option which produces a zipped up file for each subordinate folder in turn. You cannot simplify and run the whole lot at once by exporting "Local Folders" as a single massed file archive, but at least there is an export function. I haven't yet tried it out by importing the results folder by folder into a later KMail version, but it's an area that is wide open now for evaluation/exploration.
My apologies KMail team on this one archiving aspect. The function was there all the time; it was just that I wasn't looking in the right place. It doesn't alter what you said on this aspect Tuxchick, but it is satisfying to know that there IS a way to slowly get earlier emails into the later KMail versions.....or at least that's how it seems now.
Quoting:the developers are telling me that they already know my personal preferences and they can make choices better than I can. Frankly, that is arrogant and thoughtless on their part.
the developers are telling you that if you do not agree with their choice then you are not their target audience. (unless they are actually claiming that you are the target audience, but are still not meeting your needs, which i don't know as i have not followed kmail development at all)
at least when i look at my own projects, that's how i feel. yes, i am willing to entertain user requests, but only if they fit into the vision i have for the project. any requests that i don't like will only be done if i get paid for them, and if i can fit them in without negatively affecting something else that i want or need.
as a user you are free to choose from what is there, make your own contribution or pay to get something else. you do not have the freedom to make demands from the developers. (even if you are paying i still have the freedom to reject your offer)
i realize this sounds harsh and unfriendly. which is not my intention. unfortunately maybe because english is not my first language, i am lacking the vocabulary to say the above in a more friendly manner. if someone is willing to educate me as to how to express this sentiment in nicer terms, i am open to suggestions.
the above holds true at least for any project that was created to scratch the developers itch. as i said, i don't know if that is the case for kmail, so what i write should not be applied to it specifically.
such projects also don't need to be popular to be successful. they are successful as soon as it stops itching.
one project (the first one which i wrote myself from scratch) is not even released yet, and it will only be published, not when it is ready, but when i am ready to handle user feedback.
it all comes down to what the itch is. if the itch is to serve as many users as possible then listening to users should come naturally. if that is not the case then either the goal is something else or the developers may be thoughtless after all.
(and from the looks of it, it may well be that this is the case for kmail, or even kde or gnome in general. but at least for gnome it is also a question of which users to listen to. i know there are users out there that like gnome3, at which point the whole notion that gnome devs are not listening to their users becomes questionable. which users are they not listening to?)
a developer who ignores users and fails is arrogant. one who ignores users but becomes successful is a visionary.
greetings, eMBee.
Quoting:And if you have to give up KMail, you might as well give up KDE while you're at it.
If that is the user's choice, then let be. It would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Quoting:Or at least made the additional functionality optional. There's no reason they shouldn't allow you to turn it off and just let KMail be a simple email client again.
Of course they could have, and it is quite possible they thought about that, but for some reason didn't find it to be a viable option. One reason could have been lack or resource to support two apps. or to much complication added.
Quoting:I see you're still stuck in the same old invalid "take it or leave it haha too bad luser" philosophy.
TC, I am sure I am not, but the fact is, as eMBee eloquently explained it, it's a matter of developers taking care of an itch. If it help cure your itch too, great, if it doesn't and we are unable to accommodate yours, we are sorry.
Quoting:the developers are telling you that if you do not agree with their choice then you are not their target audience.
...
a developer who ignores users and fails is arrogant. one who ignores users but becomes successful is a visionary.
Well said eMBee.
> It would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
In your opinion, obviously. I came to a completely different conclusion. So far the KDE dev's have done nothing to indicate I was wrong. The few KDE linked apps I use run fine from within XFCE.
In your opinion, obviously. I came to a completely different conclusion. So far the KDE dev's have done nothing to indicate I was wrong. The few KDE linked apps I use run fine from within XFCE.
Quoting:I came to a completely different conclusion.
That is your prerogative as much as it is mine or anyone else to have their opinion. Developers would/should never try (again my opinion) to prove anyone else being right or wrong. They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's.
Quoting:The few KDE linked apps I use run fine from within XFCE.
That is exactly what I meant by saying they try their best to accommodate for users' requests and wishes within reason. I believe GNOME, KDE, and FOSS developers in general mostly try to accommodate for every one but the fact is that, it can never happen because users preferences are very diverse. As Ricky Nelson - Garden Party song goes, "you can't please everyone so you got to please yourself".
In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible. But, they obviously can't win them all.
Happy new year everyone.
In principle, Fettoosh, I agree with you 100%.....where we must disagree is when I see what has been done specifically to KMail. Firstly, choice has been removed and secondly, a new search regime has been enforced. Oh sure, I have tested Thunderbird as an alternative and it will work very satisfactorily for me, simply because it is like KMail as it once was: simple, effective, easy to install, and uncomplicated in usage - though I'd be the first to agree that I'd still prefer KMail and in principle, KMail as it was in version 1.13.6 .
My concept of the situation is that the developers have added and added and added and complicated and complicated so that instead of being something better, a software package ends up worse than you had before, and I stress that KMail is NOT the only software where this has been done. When options are bluntly removed, then the finger DOES get pointed at the developers and before you react explosively, I consider Developers as a group to be the salt of the earth .....we don't have anything at all if they don't produce and I am the first to thank them and acknowledge the debt. There is however, a fine line that they need to walk: "Always, what comes out of an "improvement" from their perspective must also be seen as such by the users. If users walk away from their product, what price development ?"
Thankyou for the greetings and they are most cordially reciprocated.
My concept of the situation is that the developers have added and added and added and complicated and complicated so that instead of being something better, a software package ends up worse than you had before, and I stress that KMail is NOT the only software where this has been done. When options are bluntly removed, then the finger DOES get pointed at the developers and before you react explosively, I consider Developers as a group to be the salt of the earth .....we don't have anything at all if they don't produce and I am the first to thank them and acknowledge the debt. There is however, a fine line that they need to walk: "Always, what comes out of an "improvement" from their perspective must also be seen as such by the users. If users walk away from their product, what price development ?"
Thankyou for the greetings and they are most cordially reciprocated.
I use the embedded Mail client in Seamonkey...
Which I suppose is rather like Thunderbird, since it shares a large amount of it's code, but as I use Seamonkey most of the time as my browser, the integrated mail client which pops up instantly seemed to make sense.
Which I suppose is rather like Thunderbird, since it shares a large amount of it's code, but as I use Seamonkey most of the time as my browser, the integrated mail client which pops up instantly seemed to make sense.
> That is your prerogative as much as it is mine or anyone else to have their opinion.
Absolutely
> They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's.
Exactly. And I've chosen someone else's.
> In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible.
And in my opinion, their responses to users during the release of KDE 4 showed their true opinion of users. I've seen nothing to change that conclusion in the past several years.
Absolutely
> They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's.
Exactly. And I've chosen someone else's.
> In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible.
And in my opinion, their responses to users during the release of KDE 4 showed their true opinion of users. I've seen nothing to change that conclusion in the past several years.
Jdixon, I realise of course that in my post I said I agreed with Fettoosh 100%, and I don't retract that but I confess I was looking at his statements in a very general way in so far as he stated:
1. Developers would/should never try (again my opinion) to prove anyone else being right or wrong. They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's; and
2. I believe GNOME, KDE, and FOSS developers in general mostly try to accommodate for every one but the fact is that, it can never happen because users preferences are very diverse; and
3. In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible.
But none of these points of agreement remove the flaws that I have also pointed out in my post above. Also, "a huge number of features" is not necessarily good either. I recall reading somewhere that Microsoft Office is now so complex in its abilities that it can virtually do anything - but what the vast majority want is something that can take down script, edit it and save it. In other words, most of the Office features are unused by the majority of users.
KDE4 is very similar. It is loaded with stuff, but I can make KDE4 behave in a very similar fashion to KDE3.5 and so from my simplistic viewpoint, my requirements are satisfied....In all honesty, I would love to know what cohort of KDE4 users actually employ some of the "add-ons" that have been thrust into KDE4 in order to improve their workspace productivity. I cannot see how the window effects would do anything for me other than slow my computer down......and I always turn them off immediately.
It's all matters of opinion and "one man's meat is another's poison". And so while I cannot help but agree with Fettoosh on those aspects I have listed above, I also cannot refute what you have written, for I have felt the same way myself over the years...especially when KDE3.5 was "consigned to the tip".
1. Developers would/should never try (again my opinion) to prove anyone else being right or wrong. They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's; and
2. I believe GNOME, KDE, and FOSS developers in general mostly try to accommodate for every one but the fact is that, it can never happen because users preferences are very diverse; and
3. In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible.
But none of these points of agreement remove the flaws that I have also pointed out in my post above. Also, "a huge number of features" is not necessarily good either. I recall reading somewhere that Microsoft Office is now so complex in its abilities that it can virtually do anything - but what the vast majority want is something that can take down script, edit it and save it. In other words, most of the Office features are unused by the majority of users.
KDE4 is very similar. It is loaded with stuff, but I can make KDE4 behave in a very similar fashion to KDE3.5 and so from my simplistic viewpoint, my requirements are satisfied....In all honesty, I would love to know what cohort of KDE4 users actually employ some of the "add-ons" that have been thrust into KDE4 in order to improve their workspace productivity. I cannot see how the window effects would do anything for me other than slow my computer down......and I always turn them off immediately.
It's all matters of opinion and "one man's meat is another's poison". And so while I cannot help but agree with Fettoosh on those aspects I have listed above, I also cannot refute what you have written, for I have felt the same way myself over the years...especially when KDE3.5 was "consigned to the tip".
A fairly good summary Ridcully. I have no doubt the KDE 4 developers are following a clear vision of what they want their desktop to be, and are working diligently to get there. Within that vision, they are apparently doing their best to cater to as many user needs as possible.
Unfortunately, that vision has nothing to do with what I need from a desktop. Nor apparently what you need from an email client. And our needs don't matter to them, because they don't fit into their grand vision.
Which is fine. They don't support what I need and I don't support them. That's they way this is supposed to work. There are apparently enough uses who do like what they produce to make them happy.
Now, Fettoosh seems to think they're doing good work and should be praised for it. He's welcome to do so. Since their work has no positive impact on me and they've made it clear (I believe toxic users was one of the phrases used) what they think of users who don't fit into their vision, I don't see any reason that they do.
Essentially, I'll thank someone when they scratch my itch that I can't reach, not when they scratch their own. XFCE fits that bill. KDE doesn't. Neither does Gnome 3.
Unfortunately, that vision has nothing to do with what I need from a desktop. Nor apparently what you need from an email client. And our needs don't matter to them, because they don't fit into their grand vision.
Which is fine. They don't support what I need and I don't support them. That's they way this is supposed to work. There are apparently enough uses who do like what they produce to make them happy.
Now, Fettoosh seems to think they're doing good work and should be praised for it. He's welcome to do so. Since their work has no positive impact on me and they've made it clear (I believe toxic users was one of the phrases used) what they think of users who don't fit into their vision, I don't see any reason that they do.
Essentially, I'll thank someone when they scratch my itch that I can't reach, not when they scratch their own. XFCE fits that bill. KDE doesn't. Neither does Gnome 3.
> XFCE fits that bill. KDE doesn't.
I pretty much agree. KDE has been going away from a lotta users, eliminating some great utilities (quanta+) and adding a lotta garbage (akonadi, nepomuk). I'll not be installing it again. Unfortunately, it does have a few great utilities like k3b, ocular, gwenview, and dolphin. I don't use the KDE WM/DE, preferring fluxbox, but I use 3 of those utilities, quite often, and occasionally dolphin. What are good substitutes?
I pretty much agree. KDE has been going away from a lotta users, eliminating some great utilities (quanta+) and adding a lotta garbage (akonadi, nepomuk). I'll not be installing it again. Unfortunately, it does have a few great utilities like k3b, ocular, gwenview, and dolphin. I don't use the KDE WM/DE, preferring fluxbox, but I use 3 of those utilities, quite often, and occasionally dolphin. What are good substitutes?
Spot on Notbob with respect to the general thrust of your second paragraph as far as I am concerned.....Apart from the calculator (which I use sporadically) K3b, Ocular, Gwenview and Dolphin are essential KDE items for me as well. Well designed, intuitive, do the job perfectly and all credit to those developers. Terrific stuff. Generally speaking, the rest of KDE4's "accessory packages" and all it's view modes have no use for me, except for email which is essential. While KMail will still do the job when it is put back into simple mode without all the frills etc., it's entanglement with KWallet and KDE search engines have undone its original elegance. I don't know of any substitutes other than Gnome's Brasero for K3b, and of course you can return to Adobe Reader - but I wouldn't.
I do like the KDE4 personal settings manager - when you can find what you want. Changing the home screen to a nice image and adding new fonts are a breeze.
I do like the KDE4 personal settings manager - when you can find what you want. Changing the home screen to a nice image and adding new fonts are a breeze.
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