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Developer Leaves Debian Systemd Maintainer Team After Constant Attacks
A very important decision to adopt systemd in Debian was taken a while ago, and since then the project has been under constant criticism. As it turns out, many people were fond of the old init system and they want nothing to do with new solutions. Most of systemd detractors say that it's still a buggy choice and that it complicates things, and this seems to be an increasing trend. |
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Comments (95)
75 earlier comments in the full thread.
My three year old autistic child is sitting on my lap at the computer at 0640. She is naming some of the planets I type into Stellarium before I need to get her ready for her day at the local public school's pre-K.
Most the work I've been able to do has been in the middle of the night. Although that's changed since I now only have my NT 1 year old at home during the day.
My 13 year old is enjoying 8th grade.
Do you want my SSN, work history, finger prints, and a notarized letter before you'll believe me? While at the same time believing, without so much as a shred of actual proof, that RH is pushing systemd hard so that they make tons of money?
EDIT:
Here's a picture of my three year old when she was 7 months old. I left the EXIF info for those interested.
The red spot on her head is known as a hemangioma. She had two of these, one on her head and one under her arm. Both have faded and are barely visible.
The point I'm making is:
You are dealing with humans. We all have a story. We all have 'something' that needs work in our lives. My life is no different than many others. And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem... So... those of us guilty of that, please refrain from doing so in the future...
In other news:
I unwisely spent a few hours last night drawing a few circuit ideas for the Raspberry Pi Dusklight... I'll probably be posting some this afternoon. If interested, take a look later and let me know if I should post more...
Most the work I've been able to do has been in the middle of the night. Although that's changed since I now only have my NT 1 year old at home during the day.
My 13 year old is enjoying 8th grade.
Do you want my SSN, work history, finger prints, and a notarized letter before you'll believe me? While at the same time believing, without so much as a shred of actual proof, that RH is pushing systemd hard so that they make tons of money?
EDIT:
Here's a picture of my three year old when she was 7 months old. I left the EXIF info for those interested.
The red spot on her head is known as a hemangioma. She had two of these, one on her head and one under her arm. Both have faded and are barely visible.
The point I'm making is:
You are dealing with humans. We all have a story. We all have 'something' that needs work in our lives. My life is no different than many others. And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem... So... those of us guilty of that, please refrain from doing so in the future...
In other news:
I unwisely spent a few hours last night drawing a few circuit ideas for the Raspberry Pi Dusklight... I'll probably be posting some this afternoon. If interested, take a look later and let me know if I should post more...
> And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem...
"...although, I don't understand why someone would wish to disable new exciting innovations that can be enabled through use of systemd's architecture." - me1010
"And Slackware people of course prefer their 1990's stuff." - Poettering
Pot, meet kettle.
"...although, I don't understand why someone would wish to disable new exciting innovations that can be enabled through use of systemd's architecture." - me1010
"And Slackware people of course prefer their 1990's stuff." - Poettering
Pot, meet kettle.
@jdixon:
Whom did I offend? I'm simply stating that if Program A can do A, B, C, and D... while program B can only do A or B and not C or D... why would I choose to run program B? The logical choice is to run Program A. There may be some individuals who have a philosophical reason or two not to run Program A. And there may be individuals who are comfortable running Program B, and don't wish to learn program A. And there may be individuals who have technical issues with Program A versus Program B. However, the logical choice is still to attempt Program A because in the long run it will probably save time and shorten the overall learning required. Nothing in the above paragraph or your quoted reference to my prior post points to any single individual. So what's the problem?
Poettering has his own way of voicing his thoughts, and I am in no way responsible for his method of communication.
...
Back to eating baloney sandwich before 1 year old wakes up from morning nap.
Whom did I offend? I'm simply stating that if Program A can do A, B, C, and D... while program B can only do A or B and not C or D... why would I choose to run program B? The logical choice is to run Program A. There may be some individuals who have a philosophical reason or two not to run Program A. And there may be individuals who are comfortable running Program B, and don't wish to learn program A. And there may be individuals who have technical issues with Program A versus Program B. However, the logical choice is still to attempt Program A because in the long run it will probably save time and shorten the overall learning required. Nothing in the above paragraph or your quoted reference to my prior post points to any single individual. So what's the problem?
Poettering has his own way of voicing his thoughts, and I am in no way responsible for his method of communication.
...
Back to eating baloney sandwich before 1 year old wakes up from morning nap.
Quoting:> And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem...
"...although, I don't understand why someone would wish to disable new exciting innovations that can be enabled through use of systemd's architecture." - me1010
"And Slackware people of course prefer their 1990's stuff." - Poettering
Pot, meet kettle.
Disregarding for a moment appeals for sympathy and the above vilification, there is now some speculation as to the degree in which Red Hat Inc and its paid SystemD devs might extend their code into other Linux distro's "affairs" and into the very kernel itself. One such speculation is that SystemD code might more extensively "infiltrate" into Debian and Ubuntu-based distros. As in this recent commentator quote from the LXer thread 'Microsoft cackles with glee' found at http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/35664/::
Quoting:Now that systemd has forced itself into almost every distro the only thing that's left for Red Hat to eliminate is the deb packaging format, once that's gone all distros of any importance will be following Red Hat standards and Red Hat will therefore be able to set the direction for Linux as it pleases.
So I wouldn't be surprised if systemd will introduce a dependency on rpm soon forcing Debian to switch to rpm.
My son had a hemangioma in his eye socket, behind his eyeball. It put pressure on his eyeball and his brain. His hemangioma faded away after about 11 or 12 months. They are quite common and usually cause no problems.
His sight development was impacted in that eyeball. A few years with corrective lenses and his vision is now fine.
His sight development was impacted in that eyeball. A few years with corrective lenses and his vision is now fine.
@vainrveenr....Thanks for the summation in the quotes. I once railed against the huge diversity in Linux, not realising that I was still "brainwashed by the Windows monocode" concept. Now, I realise one of Linux' enormous strengths is its sheer diversity, which makes it far more secure on a world basis. Any moves by Red Hat to reduce this diversity as your post seems to indicate may happen, whether intentional or not, will have serious consequences and "Windows monocode" here we come. Very unfortunate in my books.
It's becoming increasingly clear to me that me101 knows more about betting than engineering. What it seems is much more important to him than that what it is. I suspect a marketing or communication background with several years in a technical environment.
> I'm simply stating that if Program A can do A, B, C, and D... while program B can only do A or B and not C or D... why would I choose to run program B?
Because you don't need or want C or D, and in fact find them to be drawbacks? No, I guess that idea would never occur to you.
> Nothing in the above paragraph or your quoted reference to my prior post points to any single individual.
Calling people who make a different choice than you illogical is not normally considered a compliment.
Because you don't need or want C or D, and in fact find them to be drawbacks? No, I guess that idea would never occur to you.
> Nothing in the above paragraph or your quoted reference to my prior post points to any single individual.
Calling people who make a different choice than you illogical is not normally considered a compliment.
Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, here:
But this debate seems to be (in many respects) about 2 quite different things, that are being conflated:
One side is eulogizing about how wonderful systemd is for admining servers and server farms -- and lambasting critics as old-fashioned, fossilized fuddy-duddies for not sharing their enthusiasm.
The other side is appalled at how bad a design systemd is for a *nix type init system, and lambasting the enthusiasts for brushing aside the hard-earned wisdom and experience-derived insight on good design principles.
So the pro-systemd side sees the entwining of systemd into every nook and cranny as a Good Thing, and even justification, and all-swallowing aspects of the project as the inevitable march of progress,
While the anti-systemd side sees the very same things as a threat to sound design, long-term stability and long-term flexibility, a breeding ground for cruft, and as a project effectively a straight-jacket that closes off far more options than it opens.
What one side sees as good is precisely what the other side sees as bad, precisely because they have different views on what the whole point is.
But this debate seems to be (in many respects) about 2 quite different things, that are being conflated:
One side is eulogizing about how wonderful systemd is for admining servers and server farms -- and lambasting critics as old-fashioned, fossilized fuddy-duddies for not sharing their enthusiasm.
The other side is appalled at how bad a design systemd is for a *nix type init system, and lambasting the enthusiasts for brushing aside the hard-earned wisdom and experience-derived insight on good design principles.
So the pro-systemd side sees the entwining of systemd into every nook and cranny as a Good Thing, and even justification, and all-swallowing aspects of the project as the inevitable march of progress,
While the anti-systemd side sees the very same things as a threat to sound design, long-term stability and long-term flexibility, a breeding ground for cruft, and as a project effectively a straight-jacket that closes off far more options than it opens.
What one side sees as good is precisely what the other side sees as bad, precisely because they have different views on what the whole point is.
BSEE. [no... I'm not posting my diploma]
I grew up with 12 other siblings. I was always a terrible student. I took apart everything I could find, and had a huge box of wires and spare parts.
Got married instead of college... bad idea... don't do it... restarted college after 5 years.
Spent 7 years as a repair technician before graduating. I've done component level diagnosis and repair on computer monitors [CRTs], laptops, high power line controllers, specialized laser reflectometers for measuring molten metals, biological lab equipment such as small batch fermentors and shakers. I've also designed and hand built test fixtures for circuit cards coming off an assembly line.
Got divorced... bad idea... don't do it...
After graduating with a BSEE [cum laude -- just barely], I spent 8 years working for the government designing and field testing small stationary as well as on-the-move satellite terminals. I wrote several SBIR topics and held the record in my division for the most topics accepted in a single rotation.
Got remarried... terrible idea... don't do it...
I've worked on superconductor electronics [niobium - critical temperature 9.2 Kelvin] and had a hell of a time testing the circuits, as the Helium compressor was notoriously leaky. The circuits would become unstable once temperatures hit about 6 Kelvin or so...
Then I started freelancing... and simultaneously started my second career in child-rearing... I can truly tell you, raising kids full time is by far the hardest job I've ever had. I had to forgo several high dollar projects in order to take care of my younger kids, especially the autistic one...
I may not have too much professional programming experience, but I have programmed several personal and in-house testing projects. I know assembly [my favorite -- know x86_32, 68000, Atmel 8051, Atmel AVR], C, Pascal, Ada, Basic, learning python [for the Raspberry Pi], learning sql [postgresql], and TCL/TK [my goto easy to use 1990s GUI -- Poettering would be proud]...
Having said that I'm also:
Prone to bouts of depression. I have a general fear of failure. I have trouble completing my own work, but will gladly do all of yours. I have terrible business sense in that I have no idea how much to charge clients - mostly I forget to bill and then get phone calls from the client's financial office wondering if I'm going to send them a bill for the project I did for them. I can be easily distracted.
Does any of this have anything to do with the systemd, Debian, Poettering, and you? I dunno... but it feels good to post it anyway...
Didn't have time this afternoon to finish the Pi circuits --- Monday...
Lastly... some of you must be crazier than I am... and definitely have deep-seated problems... I'm sure we could all do with some good drugs and a bit of group therapy.
This will be my last post on any systemd thread -- please don't bother me with weird ideas about how I must be some paid supporter/promoter somebody for something... you would be and are terribly wrong about that...
However, I'll be more than happy to answer questions about electronics or the circuits I will put up in the forum section [eventually]... I do plan on submitting a paper to MILCOM 2015, and will probably be at the Tampa convention next October -- so, if anyone wants to be really sure I'm not a super-secret RH spy - send me a email on this system and I'll let you know my schedule when time gets closer.
Running low on Dunkin Donuts French Vanilla... goodnight...
MILCOM 2015 info [PDF]:
http://www.milcom.org/docs/milcom2015_call_for_papers.pdf
SBIR desk reference:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/osbp/sbir/sb/resources/deskreference/index.shtml
Example of Niobium Superconductor Circuit Fabrication Process [PDF]:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.5828.pdf
Superconductor Circuit Textbook [SQUID]:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/squid-handbook-john-clarke/1101190314?ean=9783527404087&itm=1&usri=9783527404087
I grew up with 12 other siblings. I was always a terrible student. I took apart everything I could find, and had a huge box of wires and spare parts.
Got married instead of college... bad idea... don't do it... restarted college after 5 years.
Spent 7 years as a repair technician before graduating. I've done component level diagnosis and repair on computer monitors [CRTs], laptops, high power line controllers, specialized laser reflectometers for measuring molten metals, biological lab equipment such as small batch fermentors and shakers. I've also designed and hand built test fixtures for circuit cards coming off an assembly line.
Got divorced... bad idea... don't do it...
After graduating with a BSEE [cum laude -- just barely], I spent 8 years working for the government designing and field testing small stationary as well as on-the-move satellite terminals. I wrote several SBIR topics and held the record in my division for the most topics accepted in a single rotation.
Got remarried... terrible idea... don't do it...
I've worked on superconductor electronics [niobium - critical temperature 9.2 Kelvin] and had a hell of a time testing the circuits, as the Helium compressor was notoriously leaky. The circuits would become unstable once temperatures hit about 6 Kelvin or so...
Then I started freelancing... and simultaneously started my second career in child-rearing... I can truly tell you, raising kids full time is by far the hardest job I've ever had. I had to forgo several high dollar projects in order to take care of my younger kids, especially the autistic one...
I may not have too much professional programming experience, but I have programmed several personal and in-house testing projects. I know assembly [my favorite -- know x86_32, 68000, Atmel 8051, Atmel AVR], C, Pascal, Ada, Basic, learning python [for the Raspberry Pi], learning sql [postgresql], and TCL/TK [my goto easy to use 1990s GUI -- Poettering would be proud]...
Having said that I'm also:
Prone to bouts of depression. I have a general fear of failure. I have trouble completing my own work, but will gladly do all of yours. I have terrible business sense in that I have no idea how much to charge clients - mostly I forget to bill and then get phone calls from the client's financial office wondering if I'm going to send them a bill for the project I did for them. I can be easily distracted.
Does any of this have anything to do with the systemd, Debian, Poettering, and you? I dunno... but it feels good to post it anyway...
Didn't have time this afternoon to finish the Pi circuits --- Monday...
Lastly... some of you must be crazier than I am... and definitely have deep-seated problems... I'm sure we could all do with some good drugs and a bit of group therapy.
This will be my last post on any systemd thread -- please don't bother me with weird ideas about how I must be some paid supporter/promoter somebody for something... you would be and are terribly wrong about that...
However, I'll be more than happy to answer questions about electronics or the circuits I will put up in the forum section [eventually]... I do plan on submitting a paper to MILCOM 2015, and will probably be at the Tampa convention next October -- so, if anyone wants to be really sure I'm not a super-secret RH spy - send me a email on this system and I'll let you know my schedule when time gets closer.
Running low on Dunkin Donuts French Vanilla... goodnight...
MILCOM 2015 info [PDF]:
http://www.milcom.org/docs/milcom2015_call_for_papers.pdf
SBIR desk reference:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/osbp/sbir/sb/resources/deskreference/index.shtml
Example of Niobium Superconductor Circuit Fabrication Process [PDF]:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.5828.pdf
Superconductor Circuit Textbook [SQUID]:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/squid-handbook-john-clarke/1101190314?ean=9783527404087&itm=1&usri=9783527404087
...
@linuxscreenshot
let's be fair, here -- me1010 didn't start that:
there have been repeated allegations from certain quarters, that me1010 is a shill or at least seriously misrepresenting himself, and dismissals of his previous replies.
While I personally think me1010 is thoroughly wrong on the systemd issue, under the circumstances his mini-bio is arguably the very politest possible response to some of the accusations sent his way.
let's be fair, here -- me1010 didn't start that:
there have been repeated allegations from certain quarters, that me1010 is a shill or at least seriously misrepresenting himself, and dismissals of his previous replies.
While I personally think me1010 is thoroughly wrong on the systemd issue, under the circumstances his mini-bio is arguably the very politest possible response to some of the accusations sent his way.
I second that. Please let's treat each other with a little respect, even if we don't share the same opinion on technical matters.
As the originator of the thread, I third that. Especially considering the message I was trying to get across in my post.
It's sad that you are falling for me1010s bu*****. Nobody asked him to post his 'life story', the question was simply whether he has any financial connections with Red Hat, which only required a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
linuxscreenshot is right, me1010 should have saved his narcissistic verbal selfies for Facebook, they are completely off-topic here. But of course me1010 knows that such tear-inducing posts work in his favour as demonstrated by the reactions following it.
me1010 has been using textbook shill tactics and as somebody else mentioned already, comes across as someone with plenty marketing experience rather than like an engineer (which he claims to be).
linuxscreenshot is right, me1010 should have saved his narcissistic verbal selfies for Facebook, they are completely off-topic here. But of course me1010 knows that such tear-inducing posts work in his favour as demonstrated by the reactions following it.
me1010 has been using textbook shill tactics and as somebody else mentioned already, comes across as someone with plenty marketing experience rather than like an engineer (which he claims to be).
>the question was simply
The question was illegitimate. Before the question, no one else proved any absence of financial gains against systemd or Red Hat.
The question was illegitimate. Before the question, no one else proved any absence of financial gains against systemd or Red Hat.
> ...the question was simply whether he has any financial connections with Red Hat, which only required a 'yes' or 'no' answer.
Ironically, I've been on the anti-systemd side most of this discussion, and I do have a financial connection with Red Hat, being a Red Hat shareholder. Only 15 shares, admittedly, but still...
If I can find my stock certificate, which should be somewhere in the house or in our safe deposit box, it may be time to do something about that. I don't think I like the way Red Hat is heading.
Ironically, I've been on the anti-systemd side most of this discussion, and I do have a financial connection with Red Hat, being a Red Hat shareholder. Only 15 shares, admittedly, but still...
If I can find my stock certificate, which should be somewhere in the house or in our safe deposit box, it may be time to do something about that. I don't think I like the way Red Hat is heading.
The systemd troll writes above:"This will be my last post on any systemd thread...."
...and yet he CONTINUES past this systemd thread to defend systemd on others? His believability quotient struggles hard to stay above 0. Nuff said.
-fb
...and yet he CONTINUES past this systemd thread to defend systemd on others? His believability quotient struggles hard to stay above 0. Nuff said.
-fb
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRmnSHHVw4
Quote from the interview: "And Slackware people of course prefer their 1990's stuff."
And now he's wondering why folks want to use him as a punching bag. What a douchebag.