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Linspire adds disaster recovery software to CNR
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Comments (24)
who cares
Linspire is evil, bad and wrong.
why? They are the only- the ONLY- Linux vendor trying to break into the retail consumer space. The ONLY one. Red Hat still dodges and weaves on the desktop question- for years they denied having any plans for a desktop Red Hat. Now you can order an actual "desktop" edition, but it's targeted at the enterprise, and costs $179. You won't find it on any store shelves.
http://www.redhat.com/rhel/compare/client/
Novell, SUSE, Mandrake- all dodge the retail consumer market.
Xandros is perfect for migrating home users away from Windows- where are they?
Linspire ships with all those bad closed drivers that the other Linux distros are afraid of, so your winmodems and nVidia cards and sound web browser plugins and everything work. I don't like closed proprietary hardware drivers, but as long as a user needs them, why not make it easy?
Under the hood, Linspire is still Debian, so you don't have to pay to use CnR if you don't want to.
For all the rhetoric about 'world domination' and 'Linux are superior', we still don't see much effort towards actually getting into the retail distribution chain, where people can actually find it, and there are way too many barriers to entry into the FOSS world.
Novell, SUSE, Mandrake- all dodge the retail consumer market.
Xandros is perfect for migrating home users away from Windows- where are they?
Linspire ships with all those bad closed drivers that the other Linux distros are afraid of, so your winmodems and nVidia cards and sound web browser plugins and everything work. I don't like closed proprietary hardware drivers, but as long as a user needs them, why not make it easy?
Under the hood, Linspire is still Debian, so you don't have to pay to use CnR if you don't want to.
For all the rhetoric about 'world domination' and 'Linux are superior', we still don't see much effort towards actually getting into the retail distribution chain, where people can actually find it, and there are way too many barriers to entry into the FOSS world.
What is this world coming to?
Again, I have to fall squarely in line with tuxchick. She's as right as right can be.
I have always been amazed at the ability of some so-called Linux Lovers to rip away at people for the sin of trying to make Linux ubiquitous.
Again, I have to fall squarely in line with tuxchick. She's as right as right can be.
I have always been amazed at the ability of some so-called Linux Lovers to rip away at people for the sin of trying to make Linux ubiquitous.
These are the commercial distros for sale on the shelf at my local Microcenter:
Xandros
Linspire
SuSE
Red Hat
Mepis/Mepis pro
SuSE and Red Hat have been at my local Comp USA sice about 1999, Xandros and Linspire have been there for the last couple of years as well.
Another article here on LXer had a picture of the Fry's in the Chicago suburbs, about 30 miles from my home. They had SuSE, Red Hat, Linspire, and Xandros on the shelf.
How come you think Linspire is the only one doing this when so many others are selling copies of these various Linux distros at major retailing consumer outlets?
Many of them have been doing it far longer than Linspire has. Linspire is crowing more about it. The others should do more to promote their efforts.
Or are you refering to Linspires push to try to get pre-installed on computers in these markets?
SuSE and Red Hat have been at my local Comp USA sice about 1999, Xandros and Linspire have been there for the last couple of years as well.
Another article here on LXer had a picture of the Fry's in the Chicago suburbs, about 30 miles from my home. They had SuSE, Red Hat, Linspire, and Xandros on the shelf.
How come you think Linspire is the only one doing this when so many others are selling copies of these various Linux distros at major retailing consumer outlets?
Many of them have been doing it far longer than Linspire has. Linspire is crowing more about it. The others should do more to promote their efforts.
Or are you refering to Linspires push to try to get pre-installed on computers in these markets?
number6x, sorry I wasn't clear, I mostly meant pre-installs, but boxed sets too. I didn't realize that so many boxed distros were available at the retail level, that's what I get for living in the sticks. I was still in Portland, OR in early 2003, and at that time you could maybe find Red Hat or Mandrake at CompUSA, and a few more than that at Fry's, but that was it. And the lippy little salestwits at CompUSA were under orders to push winduhs XP for all they were worth.
Linspire making any kind of progress with preinstalls at the retail level is amazing, as Microshaft has always exerted tremendous pressure to keep the retail chain pure of non-windoze influences. It took Apple years to get their little CompUSA ghettoes, and they're a lot bigger and more powerful than little dinky Linspire.
The more entry points into the FOSS world, the better. FOSS apps on Windows, Linux servers and desktops whether they are 100% pure or no, specialty devices, whatever- the more the merrier. Training wheels are good things.
Linspire making any kind of progress with preinstalls at the retail level is amazing, as Microshaft has always exerted tremendous pressure to keep the retail chain pure of non-windoze influences. It took Apple years to get their little CompUSA ghettoes, and they're a lot bigger and more powerful than little dinky Linspire.
The more entry points into the FOSS world, the better. FOSS apps on Windows, Linux servers and desktops whether they are 100% pure or no, specialty devices, whatever- the more the merrier. Training wheels are good things.
6 --
That Fry's is where I bought my last copy of SuSE, but that doesn't make TuxChick's point any less valid.
Novell is pointing more and more at the Enterprise space, and, by and large, most Linux distros seem to aim for Linux enthusiasts or enthusiasts in waiting.
It doesn't bother me to see somebody targetting people who might never have considered Linux.
That Fry's is where I bought my last copy of SuSE, but that doesn't make TuxChick's point any less valid.
Novell is pointing more and more at the Enterprise space, and, by and large, most Linux distros seem to aim for Linux enthusiasts or enthusiasts in waiting.
It doesn't bother me to see somebody targetting people who might never have considered Linux.
I'll be gone for a few days, I'm checking into rehab. All this agreeing with dino makes me think I need de-programming.
Or maybe it's just a beer deficit. Yeah, I'll try beer therapy first. Carry on! wheee
Or maybe it's just a beer deficit. Yeah, I'll try beer therapy first. Carry on! wheee
If all you care is ease of use and conviencience, then following tuxchick's and dinotracs arguments, trying GNU/Linux is absolutely pointless. No other distro is "going for the retail market", but Linspire is as unfree as any GNU/Linux distro can possibly be. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be switching to the most convenient non-free OS then. Why not try out MS Windows or MacOS then? I've heard many Linux games run on Windows, as well. The nvidia and ati drivers are only marginally slower on XP than on Linux. Windows has ndiswrapper included out of the box! So many people say MacOS X is an absolute breeze to use, so many nifty features and so much bling it makes your eyes hurt. And retail market catering is superb, haven't seen a single computer shop yet that wouldn't sell MS Windows. The user community must be huge, whole hives of WUGs at every corner.
If all you care is getting your windows games, 3d gfx acceleration, wifi cards, mp3s, wmv files, ipods and whatnot to work then you should better stay with MS Windows. It all works out of the box there.
To quote RMS: "Although the basic GNU/Linux system is free software, most of the GNU/Linux versions now available include a small amount of non-free software--just enough to spoil them as a way to attain freedom. But Linspire is in a class by itself; large and important parts of this system are non-free. No other GNU/Linux distribution has backslided so far away from freedom. Switching from MS Windows to Linspire does not bring you to freedom, it just gets you a different master." (source: wikiquote)
To quote RMS: "Although the basic GNU/Linux system is free software, most of the GNU/Linux versions now available include a small amount of non-free software--just enough to spoil them as a way to attain freedom. But Linspire is in a class by itself; large and important parts of this system are non-free. No other GNU/Linux distribution has backslided so far away from freedom. Switching from MS Windows to Linspire does not bring you to freedom, it just gets you a different master." (source: wikiquote)
Goodness, incinerator....
You take to logic the way a fish takes to broccoli.
This concept may be difficult for you to grasp, but I'll try:
Left ----- Stuff in between ------ Right.
It is possible to care about ease of use and convenience and STILL care about things like security, stability, and freedom. Comparing Linspire with Microsoft in that regard is just plain silly, starting from the fact that LINSPIRE AIN'T NO FREAKIN' MONOPOLY!!!!
You take to logic the way a fish takes to broccoli.
This concept may be difficult for you to grasp, but I'll try:
Left ----- Stuff in between ------ Right.
It is possible to care about ease of use and convenience and STILL care about things like security, stability, and freedom. Comparing Linspire with Microsoft in that regard is just plain silly, starting from the fact that LINSPIRE AIN'T NO FREAKIN' MONOPOLY!!!!
No monopoly? So what, I don't care. They want to imprison me with non-free software and want me to pay money for the privilge. No, thank you. I'll just continue fiddling around with my Kubuntu, Debian and OpenBSD boxes.
Linspire seems to be a good weaning tool. When you cook lobsters you don't throw them into the boiling water, you put them into the cool water and slowly warm it up.
Linspire offers more freedom than windows. It may not be ideal, but if it works out of the box and is easy, it will whet peoples appetites. They'll want more, and start looking. They wont believe that they can't use linux, because they are. It is a great stepping stone, definately not the final destination, although I don't think there is a final destination.
"If all you care is ease of use and conviencience, then following tuxchick's and dinotracs arguments, trying GNU/Linux is absolutely pointless"
That's so convoluted it deserves a prize. Though it contains a kernel of truth- are you are saying that GNU/Linux must be difficult and inconvenient? I don't believe that at all, and anyone who does is bizarre. But there are folks who whine about 'dumbing it down.' These are the same ones who think only the Right People should use Linux.
" Linspire is as unfree as any GNU/Linux distro can possibly be"
You consistently refuse to support your arguments with facts. Underneath all the Linspire stuff, it's still plain old Debian, and you can apt-get from any Debian repository, including- gasp, evil! evil! - the Non-Free repository. Freespire has a Free edition. In other words, they're following the exact same path as all other commercial Linux distributions, with one huge important exception- they're directly challenging Microsoft's hold on the retail consumer space. For this they deserve our support, not whining.
This is my least favorite of all:
"If all you care is getting your windows games, 3d gfx acceleration, wifi cards, mp3s, wmv files, ipods and whatnot to work then you should better stay with MS Windows."
That's the same old kissoff too many FOSS devs have been dissing users with for years, crabbing at us for wanting the wrong things. That's a great way to win over a user base, criticize them for having incorrect wants. If you're going to develop software as an exercise in personal satisfaction, fine, make it as lame as you want. But when you're developing products for other people to use, you really should pay attention to what they're telling you.
That's so convoluted it deserves a prize. Though it contains a kernel of truth- are you are saying that GNU/Linux must be difficult and inconvenient? I don't believe that at all, and anyone who does is bizarre. But there are folks who whine about 'dumbing it down.' These are the same ones who think only the Right People should use Linux.
" Linspire is as unfree as any GNU/Linux distro can possibly be"
You consistently refuse to support your arguments with facts. Underneath all the Linspire stuff, it's still plain old Debian, and you can apt-get from any Debian repository, including- gasp, evil! evil! - the Non-Free repository. Freespire has a Free edition. In other words, they're following the exact same path as all other commercial Linux distributions, with one huge important exception- they're directly challenging Microsoft's hold on the retail consumer space. For this they deserve our support, not whining.
This is my least favorite of all:
"If all you care is getting your windows games, 3d gfx acceleration, wifi cards, mp3s, wmv files, ipods and whatnot to work then you should better stay with MS Windows."
That's the same old kissoff too many FOSS devs have been dissing users with for years, crabbing at us for wanting the wrong things. That's a great way to win over a user base, criticize them for having incorrect wants. If you're going to develop software as an exercise in personal satisfaction, fine, make it as lame as you want. But when you're developing products for other people to use, you really should pay attention to what they're telling you.
"are you are saying that GNU/Linux must be difficult and inconvenient?"
Hmmm, did I say that or did I not? I can't remember, if I ever said that I must have forgotten about it. And to make it clear just specially for you: No, I don't want Free Software to be difficult to use. I want it to be easy to use in order to enable people to migrate from other non-free software.
Obviously you are still not getting my point: If the price of a convenient migration to GNU/Linux is shackling my wrists with non-free software, then I might just go back to using Windows again. Any distro that tries to win over the ms windows users by actively doing just that cannot possibly deserve my support. Linspire does exactly that, it's what they have established as their "distinctive selling point" compared to other distros, and thus I will continue criticising them for doing so.
Oh yes, Debian has a non-free repository, but it is not enabled by default and any box I ever installed onto did fine without it. I can live without 3d accel and mp3 codecs.
It seems Linspire really has the reputation of being the only Linux distro that is really fit for converting the "Joe Average Windows User". That impression is wrong. It seems the fact that Linspire is more actively marketed in the retail sector than other distros leads people to the conclusion it is the best "end-user windows convert" distro of all. I don't know what one thing (marketing) has got to do with the other (ease-of-use/technical advantage), but still you think it has.
Imho, with (Ku/X)Ubuntu, OpenSUSE, CentOS, Fedora Core, LiveCD distros etc. there is a wide choice of distros available that provide an ease-of-use experience not significantly worse than that of ms windows, if not even better. I don't know why, out of so many, I should start supporting Linspire in particular. Linspire has the worst approach about the users' freedom (as in free speech) of them all and many alternatives are available.
Obviously you are still not getting my point: If the price of a convenient migration to GNU/Linux is shackling my wrists with non-free software, then I might just go back to using Windows again. Any distro that tries to win over the ms windows users by actively doing just that cannot possibly deserve my support. Linspire does exactly that, it's what they have established as their "distinctive selling point" compared to other distros, and thus I will continue criticising them for doing so.
Oh yes, Debian has a non-free repository, but it is not enabled by default and any box I ever installed onto did fine without it. I can live without 3d accel and mp3 codecs.
It seems Linspire really has the reputation of being the only Linux distro that is really fit for converting the "Joe Average Windows User". That impression is wrong. It seems the fact that Linspire is more actively marketed in the retail sector than other distros leads people to the conclusion it is the best "end-user windows convert" distro of all. I don't know what one thing (marketing) has got to do with the other (ease-of-use/technical advantage), but still you think it has.
Imho, with (Ku/X)Ubuntu, OpenSUSE, CentOS, Fedora Core, LiveCD distros etc. there is a wide choice of distros available that provide an ease-of-use experience not significantly worse than that of ms windows, if not even better. I don't know why, out of so many, I should start supporting Linspire in particular. Linspire has the worst approach about the users' freedom (as in free speech) of them all and many alternatives are available.
yumpin yiminy!
Anyone see the anti-Linspire rant on Groklaw?? Here goes the fine FOSS tradition of eating its own young yet again. Sigh.
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060424164142296 "Freespire: A Linux Distro For When You Couldn't Care Less About Freedom"
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20060424164142296 "Freespire: A Linux Distro For When You Couldn't Care Less About Freedom"
Actually, Tuxchick, I think it's an excellent critique of the mindset some in the FOSS community have begun developing. It is one thing to say, "I'll have to use this proprietary driver until a libre driver is released". It is another thing to suggest that proprietary drivers are a good thing. Then again, I've never been a Linspire fan. Even that is because of their apparent affinity for proprietary stuff. Thanks, but no thanks. :-)
But if you're Linspire, what are you to do?
Ask people to pay you to assemble something they could get for free and then NOT put in drivers, etc to make the whole experience palatable to a new class of users?
Why the heck would you pay Linspire?
Personally, I would prefer good free drivers for my nVidia card. However, I would rather have the fool thing work properly than not. I had enough of that in the bad old days when Linux support for anything was hit and miss.
I don't use Linspire, but I appreciate a business (which is what Linspire is) that tries to take care of its customers.
Ask people to pay you to assemble something they could get for free and then NOT put in drivers, etc to make the whole experience palatable to a new class of users?
Why the heck would you pay Linspire?
Personally, I would prefer good free drivers for my nVidia card. However, I would rather have the fool thing work properly than not. I had enough of that in the bad old days when Linux support for anything was hit and miss.
I don't use Linspire, but I appreciate a business (which is what Linspire is) that tries to take care of its customers.
> But if you're Linspire, what are you to do?
Well, Linspire has put themselves in a no win situation, I agree. If they make Linux easy to use and/or charge a fee for the software, they upset the free software folks. If they don't, the system doesn't meet the ease of use requirements newbie users require or isn't profitable. They're trying to walk a line where they're bound to upset some people both ways. However, they're the ones who chose the business model and drew the line, so I can't really feel sorry for them.
Well, Linspire has put themselves in a no win situation, I agree. If they make Linux easy to use and/or charge a fee for the software, they upset the free software folks. If they don't, the system doesn't meet the ease of use requirements newbie users require or isn't profitable. They're trying to walk a line where they're bound to upset some people both ways. However, they're the ones who chose the business model and drew the line, so I can't really feel sorry for them.
> so I can't really feel sorry for them.
No, you shouldn't feel sorry for them.
What I don't get is all the bile directed their way.
Last I looked, Linspire dropped more than a few dollars on Nvu and elsewhere.
They want to sell their particular package of Linux to people who might be interested? In what way does that hurt me? I wish them well.
No, you shouldn't feel sorry for them.
What I don't get is all the bile directed their way.
Last I looked, Linspire dropped more than a few dollars on Nvu and elsewhere.
They want to sell their particular package of Linux to people who might be interested? In what way does that hurt me? I wish them well.
> ...What I don't get is all the bile directed their way.
I think I understand it on an intuitive level, but it's rather hard to put into words. Hmm...
OK, I think that for most people it's really just an emotional reaction that they haven't thought through carefully. The view Linspire as a sort of mutated, warped version of Linux; an abomination if you will, like a cancer which could grow to kill the host.
They don't seem to realize that Linspire has no power to force anyone to use it, and that they only way it can compete with the free distro's is by being better. If it succeeds in being better, then Linux is improved. If it fails, than it will fail as a business, but Linux will still continue.
I think I understand it on an intuitive level, but it's rather hard to put into words. Hmm...
OK, I think that for most people it's really just an emotional reaction that they haven't thought through carefully. The view Linspire as a sort of mutated, warped version of Linux; an abomination if you will, like a cancer which could grow to kill the host.
They don't seem to realize that Linspire has no power to force anyone to use it, and that they only way it can compete with the free distro's is by being better. If it succeeds in being better, then Linux is improved. If it fails, than it will fail as a business, but Linux will still continue.
>They don't seem to realize that Linspire has no power to force anyone to use it,
I think you hit the nail on the head.
We spend too much time ( of necessity) looking at the Microsofts and Oracles and IBMs of our world.
Linspire's just a little company of people trying to make a living by putting out a product they hope some people will like.
It's not the same thing.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
We spend too much time ( of necessity) looking at the Microsofts and Oracles and IBMs of our world.
Linspire's just a little company of people trying to make a living by putting out a product they hope some people will like.
It's not the same thing.
My real concern is that Linspire has chosen a path that blurs the already confusing issues. That's not a poorly thought-out concern. The very fact that so many people still can't spell out what Free Software is, or how it contrasts with freeware is ample justification for my concerns about Linspire's business model. It can be misleading with respect to the purpose of Free Software.
I have few problems with having a special repository available for those who just have to have their proprietary software. If I understand correctly, Ubuntu's "Restricted" repository serves such a purpose.
I have few problems with having a special repository available for those who just have to have their proprietary software. If I understand correctly, Ubuntu's "Restricted" repository serves such a purpose.
dcp, that certainly is a concern. And despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, I'll wager that most FOSS users are attracted by the 'free as in freeloader' aspect. My guess is it's a pretty small minority that really thinks the values represented by the GPL are important. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it seems.
Quoting:My guess is it's a pretty small minority that really thinks the values represented by the GPL are important.
I'd agree with that. The important thing, and the bigger problem, is how to convey to them just how important those values are. Until we can do that, We haven't really made any progress.
dcp -
>My real concern is that Linspire has chosen a path that blurs the already confusing issues.
That's the irony of it all, though.
To my knowledge, Linspire is not violating the GPL or any of the other free licenses under which software in it's distribution is released. They have chosen a perfectly permissible path.
They are exercising the freedom granted to them. Given their contributions to projects like nvu, you can't even claim that they are mere freeloaders.
Your concerns are misplaced. Linspire is just one little company trying to make an honest dollar by offering a service that they hope will attract customers.
If people don't care about FOSS, there are many more culprits than Linspire.
>My real concern is that Linspire has chosen a path that blurs the already confusing issues.
That's the irony of it all, though.
To my knowledge, Linspire is not violating the GPL or any of the other free licenses under which software in it's distribution is released. They have chosen a perfectly permissible path.
They are exercising the freedom granted to them. Given their contributions to projects like nvu, you can't even claim that they are mere freeloaders.
Your concerns are misplaced. Linspire is just one little company trying to make an honest dollar by offering a service that they hope will attract customers.
If people don't care about FOSS, there are many more culprits than Linspire.
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