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Going Microsoft free, like Mike
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Comments (26)
6 earlier comments in the full thread.
> they build a catalog of don't do that's and "try this"'s to work around all the bugs and, um, undocumented features.
Of such shared experiences are "culture" and "society" made. Something like the English Common Law, I would say.
Of such shared experiences are "culture" and "society" made. Something like the English Common Law, I would say.
Quoting:One thing I've liked about F/OSS: If I fix it once, I can fix it again. With Windows, it seemed as if it was a dice-roll. What worked to fix a problem today might very well not work tomorrow.Actually, I've had (sort of) the opposite experience.
Windows systems require me to baby-sit them daily. The fixes are usually fresh in my mind because I have to do them so often.
Linux systems, OTOH, may require me to study a solution in order to implement it properly. Then it just works without needing my attention, sometimes for years. When a change is (finally) required, I've forgotten what I did to get it working in the first place.
On a slight change of topic; My work is a Microsoft shop. Somewhere between 15 and 20% of my time is spent dealing with licensing issues. Furthermore, implementing solutions is often delayed by days or weeks while I wait on license keys to arrive. This is really not where I want to spend my time.
My employer is contemplating a switch from MS Office 2003 to OO.o. There are several factors making this attractive to them (with my input, of course.) 1) Cost: MS Office 2003 licenses cost between $150/seat and $300/seat. OO.o cost is $0/seat. 2) Admin: Zero time dealing with, or delayed because of, licensing issues with OO.o. 3) Training: MS Office 2007 has a completely different interface than MS Office 2003. Also, it has a different default file format. This means our conversion must be wholesale, and our users must be re-trained.
If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it?
> What I'd really enjoy are "You can move to Linux" stories.
Yes! But more than that, "You can do better with free software" stories.
I've moved lots of people to Firefox already, and a few to OOo. Much of the satisfaction is in registering the surprise that something that good can be that free, and the slight anger at having been kept in the dark for so long.
Many people / companies could switch to Linux 100%. But lots more even can make a partial switch to some half-way station. We shouldn't underestimate that. Use OOo, FF and TB, and you're already almost there -- who knows what an OS is anyway ;-) Main thing is breaking through psychologically.
Yes! But more than that, "You can do better with free software" stories.
I've moved lots of people to Firefox already, and a few to OOo. Much of the satisfaction is in registering the surprise that something that good can be that free, and the slight anger at having been kept in the dark for so long.
Many people / companies could switch to Linux 100%. But lots more even can make a partial switch to some half-way station. We shouldn't underestimate that. Use OOo, FF and TB, and you're already almost there -- who knows what an OS is anyway ;-) Main thing is breaking through psychologically.
Quoting:...the surprise that something that good can be that free...Heh. I remember the first time my brother saw Linux. He said, "THIS is FREE?!"
That was in 1997.
Since I re-read _In The Beginning Was The Command Line_ by Neil Stephenson recently, I can pull something he said out of thin air here.
He said he had written down every one of his "troubleshooting" sessions in notebooks. He had some 3 or 4 notebooks _full_ of fixes and such.
I wonder how many "HowTos" were written because someone realized that if they didn't write it down they would forget later? (as opposed to a conscious decision at the start)
> If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it?
A perfectly logical and effective way of looking at it, and as an engineer I'm completely convinced to give it a try just from that. After all, if it blows up, you can always just go buy Office2007 anyway.
But does it convince the boss? My immediate question for you is, have you given him/her a copy of OOo to try out? What do they personally think of it?
He said he had written down every one of his "troubleshooting" sessions in notebooks. He had some 3 or 4 notebooks _full_ of fixes and such.
I wonder how many "HowTos" were written because someone realized that if they didn't write it down they would forget later? (as opposed to a conscious decision at the start)
> If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it?
A perfectly logical and effective way of looking at it, and as an engineer I'm completely convinced to give it a try just from that. After all, if it blows up, you can always just go buy Office2007 anyway.
But does it convince the boss? My immediate question for you is, have you given him/her a copy of OOo to try out? What do they personally think of it?
>If we _must_ throw stone 3, why not kill birds 1 and 2 while we are at it?
There are some other issues that may or may not apply to you:
1. Do you exchange documents with the outside world that must be completely accurate in their presentation?
This does happen, but it is incredibly rare. Even legal documents allow a certain amount of discretion. Besides, even Office will only give you identical results if you have all of the fonts installed, haven't mucked with templates and macros, are using the same version, etc, etc.
2. Do you make heavy use of Excel?
Excel really is a good spreadsheat and the spreadsheet is OO's weakest link.
3. Do you exchange things with the outside world that are macro intensive? Internal documents with macros can be revised once, but ongoing exchanges can be a problem.
There are some other issues that may or may not apply to you:
1. Do you exchange documents with the outside world that must be completely accurate in their presentation?
This does happen, but it is incredibly rare. Even legal documents allow a certain amount of discretion. Besides, even Office will only give you identical results if you have all of the fonts installed, haven't mucked with templates and macros, are using the same version, etc, etc.
2. Do you make heavy use of Excel?
Excel really is a good spreadsheat and the spreadsheet is OO's weakest link.
3. Do you exchange things with the outside world that are macro intensive? Internal documents with macros can be revised once, but ongoing exchanges can be a problem.
> So what really concerns me is why "her employer" isn't using OOo rather than MS-Office, &etc.
Well, it's not just Office. In a typical business of more than average size, there's business planning software, human resources software, accounting software, customer relations software, intranet websites, etc.; all of which are built to interface with Windows, IE, and Office and won't work with OpenOffice or Firefox.
Well, it's not just Office. In a typical business of more than average size, there's business planning software, human resources software, accounting software, customer relations software, intranet websites, etc.; all of which are built to interface with Windows, IE, and Office and won't work with OpenOffice or Firefox.
Quoting:Linux does not have the feature that CEO's count on most in Windows.
You know the one, where they hold their laptop over their head and shake it vigorously to reset the screen?
You make it sound so funny, but there's a hidden truth in there. With Windows you can hard reboot and 8 times out of 10 your problem goes away (but even then you end up with at least 2 new problems that *won't* go away every day).
With Linux, rebooting has usually no effect. You're really going to have to fix it.
This whole "must exchange digital files with other users so we are stuck with MS Office" business is a big fat red herring. If they're inside your company, then put everyone on OOoooo or KOffice. Problem solved. They make it sound like random strangers with very complex Word docs or Excel spreadsheets all full of custom VB macros are sending them files- for what purpose? this part is never explained- and demanding 100% fidelity through whatever mysterious acts are perpetrated upon the files.
As if. What happens in the real world is poorly-trained lusers are composing two-line emails in MS Word and then attaching .doc files to Outlook messages. Or writing Web pages in Word, or using Excel as a database, or using Publisher to make "pretty" business letters. It's nuts. The vast majority of this crud will translate to ODF easily. For the rest- well, better keep some copies of MS Office around for awhile, and work on a long-term migration plan.
There is a problem with digital archives, though again it's overstated. Most of them could be deleted unexamined, and no one would ever care. And, as has been said so often already, MS doesn't even maintain compatibility with itself, so those archives are already at risk. So why stick with MS?
Even FOSS advocates don't understand what's really going on, and don't know how to counteract the stupid stuff.
As if. What happens in the real world is poorly-trained lusers are composing two-line emails in MS Word and then attaching .doc files to Outlook messages. Or writing Web pages in Word, or using Excel as a database, or using Publisher to make "pretty" business letters. It's nuts. The vast majority of this crud will translate to ODF easily. For the rest- well, better keep some copies of MS Office around for awhile, and work on a long-term migration plan.
There is a problem with digital archives, though again it's overstated. Most of them could be deleted unexamined, and no one would ever care. And, as has been said so often already, MS doesn't even maintain compatibility with itself, so those archives are already at risk. So why stick with MS?
Even FOSS advocates don't understand what's really going on, and don't know how to counteract the stupid stuff.
Quoting: Linux systems, OTOH, may require me to study a solution in order to implement it properly. Then it just works without needing my attention, sometimes for years. When a change is (finally) required, I've forgotten what I did to get it working in the first place.
Heaven forbid you document your procedures.....oh, okay, sometimes I'm guilty of it too, so I can't toss a stone at you for it. However, the argument is indicative of bad administration practices, not some grand difference between the OSes. I agree on the licensing issues, and not only with MS, but with supporting software such as antivirus or backup software. Licensing+time for me to license it+time for me to register it+time for me to install it+time for me to troubleshoot the crappy install+time for me to configure it==mucho $$$$$$$$. I think it's so funny that installation of an entire OS with software in Linux takes about as much time as formatting a disc in Windows...and time is money, whether a client is paying for it or your own company is paying for it.
Quoting:But does it convince the boss? My immediate question for you is, have you given him/her a copy of OOo to try out? What do they personally think of it?Didn't have to with my boss. He had already tried it and was convinced it could do the job in all but the most extreme cases. There is, however, a higher up that will have to be convinced.
Quoting:1. Do you exchange documents with the outside world that must be completely accurate in their presentation?Yes, but our policy for years has been to exchange documents in PDF format. So, no problem there. No exchange of macro or VBA documents occurs.
Quoting:2. Do you make heavy use of Excel?We have identified 2 spreadsheets that will require some work. These are the only two documents (which we have found) that make use of VBA. Also, there is one VBScript that uses COM objects to extract data from existing Excel spreadsheets and build a new spreadsheet. This will have to be rewritten.
Quoting:3. Do you exchange things with the outside world that are macro intensive? Internal documents with macros can be revised once, but ongoing exchanges can be a problem.No.
Quoting:...the argument is indicative of bad administration practices...Perhaps. However, the configuration is documented. It's the knowledge of the program's function that I tend to forget. Therefore, how to reconfigure the program to affect some new behavior requires me to re-educate myself.
Also, I'm certain that being in my forties has no connection with my recall problems. 8^>
Just think NoDough, in a few years you'll be able to hide your own Easter Eggs too.
Oh please, don't talk like 40s is "getting on", I have enough worries about age.
The first thing I noticed is that my toes hurt. Now an x-ray has shown the beginnings of arthritis in my left knee, and the specialist is convinced that the cartilage (or ligament, as long as she knows the difference I don't have to) is cracked and going to need to be welded back together.
If this is 44, what the $%^&* is 66 going to look like? Will I have to sell my motorcycle?
The first thing I noticed is that my toes hurt. Now an x-ray has shown the beginnings of arthritis in my left knee, and the specialist is convinced that the cartilage (or ligament, as long as she knows the difference I don't have to) is cracked and going to need to be welded back together.
If this is 44, what the $%^&* is 66 going to look like? Will I have to sell my motorcycle?
>Also, I'm certain that being in my forties has no connection with my recall problems. 8^>
I was in my 40s once. I don't think losing your memory is a big problem, but, to be honest, I can't recall.
I was in my 40s once. I don't think losing your memory is a big problem, but, to be honest, I can't recall.
I've stopped using any flavor of MS Windows back in 96/97... and I do not regret.
Yessss, I do more than just browsing or reading e-mail... a lot more... for example , I do IC design
Quoting:With Linux, rebooting has usually no effect. You're really going to have to fix it.When my mom asked for a Linux system for Christmas:
"What will you do when it crashes, and I won't be around to fix it?"
"I know it won't crash as often as Windows."
She got her Christmas wish.
My Mom takes delivery of her new Linux laptop next week. :^)
My wife uses it at home too, but perhaps just due to my influence. She just started working on a screenplay using a great open source screenwriting tool called Celtx.
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That's the difference between being able to get at and understand the problem and being forced to scatter-shoot until you come up with something that works.
My year as a technical writer made me appreciate how much the users of Microsoft Office really work at it. Not only do they learn the things they can reasonably be expected to learn, but they build a catalog of don't do that's and "try this"'s to work around all the bugs and, um, undocumented features.