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Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing on patents
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Comments (33)
13 earlier comments in the full thread.
>The defended could ask for code as proof
Proof of what? If Microsoft sues you for patent infringement, your code is at issue, not Microsoft's.
Proof of what? If Microsoft sues you for patent infringement, your code is at issue, not Microsoft's.
> The question is, is Microsoft willing to take the risk? With the history they have, I don't think so.
Well, that hasn't stopped the MafiAA yet, AFAICT.
Well, that hasn't stopped the MafiAA yet, AFAICT.
The MIAA is not Microsoft.
The MIAA sues on copyright, not patent.
But they both have an unfavorable track record. When facts are brought into play, their high and lofty arguments fall apart, and the case folds.
It has nothing to do with high and lofty arguments when you go to court. It is about rules of evidence. To open Microsoft's code, somebody would have to sue them and allege some kind of impropriety. FYI, a counter-suit would do the job because it is a suit by the defendant.
Quoting:Proof of what?If MS wants to play this game, don't you think IBM might want to defend its business and jump on it by flashing its patent portfolio? Or may be suing for copyright infringement on its GPLed code? IBM starts a suit and asks for code to prove its point.
FSF could start a suit claiming that MS is using GPLed code and ask for code to prove it.
Dino, Everything is possible in court, right?
Abe -
>Everything is possible in court, right?
The SCO case should have taught you better. You can do a lot of mischief blowing smoke, but, in the end, it comes down to the facts and the law. If you'll recall, the judge threw most of SCO's case out as a sanction for failing to comply with her orders and produce real claims and real evidence.
You can try just about anything in court, but it's very painful to get caught at shenanigans. In actions of this magnitude, the lawyers are plentiful enough and good enough on both sides that shenanigans are a bad idea. Doesn't mean somebody won't try. Smart people are more prone to be stupid than stupid people are. It's an ego thing.
>Everything is possible in court, right?
The SCO case should have taught you better. You can do a lot of mischief blowing smoke, but, in the end, it comes down to the facts and the law. If you'll recall, the judge threw most of SCO's case out as a sanction for failing to comply with her orders and produce real claims and real evidence.
You can try just about anything in court, but it's very painful to get caught at shenanigans. In actions of this magnitude, the lawyers are plentiful enough and good enough on both sides that shenanigans are a bad idea. Doesn't mean somebody won't try. Smart people are more prone to be stupid than stupid people are. It's an ego thing.
Quoting:The SCO case should have taught you better.And what makes you think I meant they do a shenanigans job like SCO? All I was referring to is SCO was granted the rights and permissions and look through lot of IBM Linux code, and even some that didn't have anything to do with Linux. What I am saying is, IBM/FSF to find good indication of MS copying and asking for code to find evidence. I don't have any, but all that talk about MS copying on the internet must have a sliver of truth. Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Dino, I don't think IBM or FSF are that stupid to do what your are suggesting. Give them a little of credit.
Abe -
I think you are overlooking one very critical fact:
SCO sued IBM. IBM's code was at issue.
We were talking about cases of Microsoft enforcing it's IP.
Now - if IBM or FSF were to sue Microsoft, then, of course, Microsoft's code would be at issue. They would need some reason to believe that Microsoft is infringing on their stuff, a reason that they could place before a court and certify that they have done their due diligence with respect to law and facts.
That's not an especially high bar, but it requires more than "Gee...they're Microsoft, they must be stealing something". Making the issue a little touchier is that, in federal court, on IP issues, the loser can be stuck with the winner's legal fees under some circumstances.
I think you are overlooking one very critical fact:
SCO sued IBM. IBM's code was at issue.
We were talking about cases of Microsoft enforcing it's IP.
Now - if IBM or FSF were to sue Microsoft, then, of course, Microsoft's code would be at issue. They would need some reason to believe that Microsoft is infringing on their stuff, a reason that they could place before a court and certify that they have done their due diligence with respect to law and facts.
That's not an especially high bar, but it requires more than "Gee...they're Microsoft, they must be stealing something". Making the issue a little touchier is that, in federal court, on IP issues, the loser can be stuck with the winner's legal fees under some circumstances.
Quoting: "Gee...they're Microsoft, they must be stealing something"
Isn't that what you call prima facie evidence? I mean-- duh!
:)
tc -
You may have a point. Tell it to the judge.
You may have a point. Tell it to the judge.
> Smart people are more prone to be stupid than stupid people are.
"People aren't as stupid as Microsoft needs them to be." -- Pamela Jones, Groklaw
"People aren't as stupid as Microsoft needs them to be." -- Pamela Jones, Groklaw
So the feeling is that Microsoft is bought out by legislators in our government. That Microsoft will eventually trump over Linnux. Get Real!! Part of PR is through bluff and threats and as many people have already stipulated.....If you had "the proof" you would have taken it to court by now. But remember...it's not over until the fat lady sings! Microsoft won a few battles but in no way will they win the war! Recently, the U.S. Army have decided in a multi-billion dollar project in which ALL of their computers will be switched over to Linux (more security?). And as everyone knows, what the Armed Services WANTS they get! And to think that Microsoft will whirl a few tentacles over a few "representatives" in order to get what they want is NOT gonna happen! When 43% of total businesses today are making their switch over to Linux and Mac tells you that the CUSTOMERS STILL dictate and are in control! When Mr. Bill Gates openly admitted that "he could no longer fix the problem of malware" because of its immensity and advised all business to periodically erase and reformat their servers made me laugh! For business to do that is time AND MONEY! Reason number two why more and more businesses are turning to Linux and Mac computers! All Mr.Torvind has to do is to have his partent lawyers inspect and scrutinize the kernel systems of Microsoft to detect if anything has been slightly "modified" (stolen), take it to court and make sure ALL his "kernel" systems are removed from the microsoft Server or computer systems (If that is what has happened!) And last, although this is not Europe, and Microsoft learned their lesson well through a $60 billion lawsuit they lost; All it would take is the combined legal efforts, resources of Linux, IBM, Cisco , Sun Systems to combine their efforts/combination/legal resources in court (like the Europeans) to stop Microsoft dead in their tracks! The U.S. Military and business are usually the predictors of what new technology and changes. The last, is usually
the "average home computer user" and Mr. Gates is well aware of that fact! Why do you think his interest in Yahoo is so intense if not fanatical?
Yep! the writing is on the wall....and the emergence of Linux is just the beginning!
Quoting:Microsoft learned their lesson well through a $60 billion lawsuit they lost;$60 billion? Are you sure about this number?
Quoting:Recently, the U.S. Army have decided in a multi-billion dollar project in which ALL of their computers will be switched over to Linux (more security?).Go Army, do you have a link for that? I like to tease some one close and at West Point.
It's frightening how much our military relies on Windows. If Russia really wanted to we'd be shut down in 5 minutes.
> ...do you have a link for that?
I don't think it's actually everything, but it's significant:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/05/us_army_linux_integr...
I don't think it's actually everything, but it's significant:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/05/us_army_linux_integr...
Don't forget this one from the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01...
JDixson, Steven,
Thanks guys, very informative.
Thanks guys, very informative.
I was working at NASA during the days of Win95.
Lots of Macs, lots of Unix machines. Then, suddenly, Win95 everywhere.
It turns out that writing "Win95 capable machine" was a line-item on a budget request, where as it took multiple lines to describe what kind of Unix machine, Mac, etc, were wanted.
Oh, and the price of course.
If it weren't for government, Microsoft's profit margins and sales numbers would be much, much lower.
Oh, and what about that "lawsuit" thing? If a suit is being brought by a government, why would that government still use the products of the evil monopolist?
Because they're all in bed together, that's why.
(and because bureaucracies are astoundingly inefficient, but that's just nit-picking)
Lots of Macs, lots of Unix machines. Then, suddenly, Win95 everywhere.
It turns out that writing "Win95 capable machine" was a line-item on a budget request, where as it took multiple lines to describe what kind of Unix machine, Mac, etc, were wanted.
Oh, and the price of course.
If it weren't for government, Microsoft's profit margins and sales numbers would be much, much lower.
Oh, and what about that "lawsuit" thing? If a suit is being brought by a government, why would that government still use the products of the evil monopolist?
Because they're all in bed together, that's why.
(and because bureaucracies are astoundingly inefficient, but that's just nit-picking)
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The question is, is Microsoft willing to take the risk? With the history they have, I don't think so.