Why do people hate Linspire?
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| mojavelinux Oct 18, 2004 4:44 PM EDT |
I am not going to defend anyone here, I am just interested to listen. I have my opinion, but let's see what others have to say. |
| dave Oct 18, 2004 4:54 PM EDT |
I've never used their products, so I can't speak to that end. I've heard some good things about Lindows, so I'll reserve judgement until I do my own preview. As for the company itself, I've been really turned off with the [snake-oil | used-car-salesman] techniques and general hucksterism that their marketing, sales and PR teams utilize, that is just nauseating. The endless press releases, gimmick after gimmick, various domains (tryoutlinux.com comes to mind, and then lraiser.com). Ugh. Contrast them with the professional (by comparison!) approach taken by Red Hat and the other professional guys out there. Who do you think I'm more comfortable recommending to my clients? dave |
| mojavelinux Oct 18, 2004 7:27 PM EDT |
Hmm, perhaps I do need to turn up my "skept-o-meter" to make sure that I don't push people down the wrong path. However, I do think that there is a certain mindset that Linspire is targeting. Despite the fact that we may never understand why, many consumers like to be sold on something. If there is room in the market, I cannot say it is wrong. Its a confusing world, and I am certainly still trying to figure it out. I am going to see what I think in a few more months, since I have a free 6 month membership to Linspire anyways. |
| Glimmung Oct 19, 2004 7:22 AM EDT |
I have been told in the past that Lindows/Linspire runs as root (or as good as). I have no first hand information on this, could you confirm or deny this rumour? If true Robertson needs a smack in the head, and is reason enough for me to avoid like the plague. Reasons I distrust Linspire: If any of these are wrong I would appreciate the correction. CNR is a proprietary wrapper around Debian, I don't trust a company that will not feed it's major code back to the community, one reason why I am only now considering even trying Suse. I have never heard of Linspire giving anything back (unlike, Slackware, Debian, RH, Mandrake, Suse, etc., etc.). They have made dubious claims in the past. They claimed to have produced a DVD player that ran on a Linux installed computer. This DVD player was (IIRC) actually a software DVD player that did not run on Linux, but ran the hardware from a boot-up as though it were a standard home DVD player. Possibly it still is in existance, if you have it for trial could you verify this? It costs in excess of US$100. I cannot try it out in a fully functioning mode, and therefore I cannot test it. I am certainly not giving this money to them for a product I have not tested, when I can test other distros for free. Has this changed? Basically many of the problems that led me away from M$ seem to exist with Linspire, a management who seems to know little about technology and software, run with a bias on the marketing rather than the functionality, dubious technical capabilities and requires money up front for an unproven (to me) product. |
| mojavelinux Oct 19, 2004 10:12 AM EDT |
Wow, okay, I think I am starting to understand what this whole argument is all about. Clearly there is a TON of FUD that got sent Lindows/Linspire's way and unfortunately, it is mostly just that. I am not defending Linspire in these next few paragraphs. I will simply state the truth, which is clearly required here. As an open source advocate, I just want to make sure that the community isn't shooting off its own leg. 1. Claim 1: Linspire Runs as Root This is no more true than saying that Mandrake or SuSE run as root. In both of these distributions, you are required to add (or not add) users at some point during the install. Linspire often comes preinstalled and doesn't want to impose a user on the system, so it defers this step until after the first login. So yes, you do initially log in as root, but if you follow the wizard, you are encouraged (just as much as in the Mandrake and SuSE installs) to add a user. They really need to add a big warning message or make the wizard modal so that the user cannot do anything as root. This is nothing like Windows XP, which allows you to elevate any user to Admin status. 2. Claim 2: Produced a DVD player for Linux Actually, there is one, and it is available today. It is called LinDVD, inheriting its name from its win32 equivalent, WinDVD. Mostly likely it uses wine or something to run, but it gives a Linux user grief-free use of a DVD player. Linspire also makes a handful of other DVD players available through CNR, including ogle. 3. Claim 3: It costs in excess of $100 Not true, it costs much less, though I don't know the exact price. I got it for free when buying a Linspire Desktop for $499. What does cost money with Linspire is the monthly fee for CNR. Linspire is a company, and they offer a service, so we cannot hate them for that. After installing Linspire, you could hook up to a Debian apt repository and never use CNR again. CNR just makes it fun, easy, and enjoyable to select and install software on Linux. It isn't really the code that they are selling here, it is the maintenance of the packages. Mandrake encourages people to join MandrakeClub for about the same price. Also, you can test Linspire for free with the LinspireLive CD. Additionally, Linspire can be shared between family members and you don't have to feel that you are cheating the system. They encourage it. Judge for yourself how you feel about that. 4. Claim 4: Linspire doesn't give back Of all the claims, this is the most dangerous. Regardless of whether I, or anyone else, hates or loves them, this statement slights their contributions. Linspire is the reason a large number of projects or initiatives still have food on their plate today. Open source is about contributing where you can, and doesn't always mean contributing code. Linspire funds a lot of initiatives and helps to advocate Linux in markets where it has had trouble (AOL for instance). You might find this page interesting: http://comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_2539.html Linspire isn't perfect and their products aren't 100% free like a Debian. But that isn't the goal of Linspire. Debian already fills that need. Linspire works to make an OS that people can set and forget, but under the covers be as powerful and secure as any one available. They are trying to succeed just like any other Linux vendor, only their target is the messy mass of end users. Linspire has very capable developers as well, certainly just as talented as the Mandrake camp. They got hibernate (swsusp) working great in a very early addition. I still have problems with my Mandrake box in this department. Love them or hate them, Linspire does offer a legitimate product. I will leave it at that. |
| beaveyOne Oct 19, 2004 12:08 PM EDT |
I'll add my 2 cents. Here's what I can think of to add to mojavelinux's post off the top of my head: 2. LinDVD is NOT the DVD player software that Lindows sells. LinDVD was a piece of Linux software originally designed by the makers of WinDVD, but which they later decided not to make available to the Linux community as a whole. They sell LinDVD for embedded appliances only. The Linspire DVD Player is actually Xine with the libdvdcss code included for you. They sell it for $5.00 so you can have a legal DVD-playing application on your Linux machine in the USA. 3. Yes, the LinspireLive CD is available for free, although they don't advertise that fact very well. If you download using BitTorrent, there is no charge. If you download from their servers directly, it'll cost you $20. Weird, but for whatever reason, that's how they've decided to offer it. Also, Linspire occasionally makes free downloads of the full Linspire OS available by issuing coupon codes on various web sites. Otherwise, it costs $49.95 for the OS alone, or $89.95 for the OS plus one year of Click-And-Run (CNR) service. Optionally, you can run CNR for $5.00 a month, if I remember correctly, instead of paying for a year up-front. 4. Specifically, I can think of these open source projects that receive (or have received) funding from Linspire: Gaim, NVu, kde-look.org, Mozilla. I want to say they dumped a bunch of money into Wine early-on, too, but I can't remember for sure. I know there are more, but I can't think of them right now --- those are the ones that came to me right away. Basically, Linspire doesn't deserve the bad rap given to it by the open source community over the last couple of years. It's true that it started out on shaky ground, and that there were half-true rumors flying around about it in its earliest days, but it has evolved into a distribution that's extremely capable and well suited to its target audience. I've been running Linspire for the past 6 months or so, after running Red Hat for years, and after a short flirtation with Mandrake and a few other distros. Linspire has been stable for me, and most important, it's been the easiest to use of any distribution on my work laptop. For the most part, everything just works. I have a few minor problems, but far less than I've experienced with any other distro, and they aren't show-stoppers for me. Linspire provides a quality product for a reasonable price. People should cut them some slack and give the OS a try. They might be pleasantly surprised. |
| Glimmung Oct 19, 2004 4:45 PM EDT |
Thanks for the effort. It has been a long time since I looked at Linspire. Thanks for clearing up some questions. The first login as root has never happened on any other distro I have used. It is incredibly bad to have a user logged in as root during the computers most vulnerable stage. But we all agree on this. Until this is resolved it can never be allowed near any uneducated user. This alone will stop me from recommending it. The DVD player issue was an old memory from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/05/12/lindows_in_the_livin... Like I said, I had not heard of any contributions, I am happy to be proven wrong. I more than accept code is not the only thing to give back. But I expect Linux companies to state their case. It is one of the things for which they earn good will. I can't try CNR without paying for it, and I have never used Suse because Yast was always proprietary, so there is no way Linspire will get tested by me as it will cost me money before I use, and CNR is proprietary. The OS must be completely Open, there cannot be any major element closed off. Linspire fails on this account. As for prices, I think mine were from Version 3.0 (2002). It is good to know they are improving and provide funding and the such back, but that does not cure my primary concerns. |
| techieMoe Oct 20, 2004 4:49 AM EDT |
I could be mistaken, but I believe you can try CNR out for 15 days for free, provided you cancel before the 15 days is up (they require a credit card for the trial, but don't charge anything to it unless you let it lapse). This doesn't address your non-proprietary concern, but it might let you at least try it. I have tried it and I must say, for those who don't want to learn much about Linux (i.e. they want a toaster, not a computer) CNR is handy. For those of us who are capable of installing our own software, however, it's just a proprietary Debian (is that an oxymoron?) |
| mojavelinux Oct 20, 2004 8:58 AM EDT |
> The Linspire DVD Player is actually Xine with the libdvdcss code included for you. Crap, I didn't do my research thoroughly. You are correct, looking at the screenshot it IS Xine. Sorry for the misinformation. |
| mojavelinux Oct 20, 2004 9:08 AM EDT |
I will follow up with the fact that I agree the root login at setup must go. I have watched many beginning users on computers and once those people start down a path, they don't know that they are even on a path. Scary. I have long wrested over the "completely open/free" vs. "mostly open/free" problem. When my wife comes in and sits down and I watch Mandrake crap out on her and I have to say "oh, I just haven't added the extra plugin so the DVD player will work" or "that game runs slow because I don't have ATI's driver yet" I realize that not every Linux in my house can be 100% free as the world spins right now. Linspire is incredibly awesome as a crossover computer. For my laptop, I am not going to pay a cent, and will run either Mandrake, Slackware, or Debian. Same goes for my servers. Like I said before, Linspire has a place, but it isn't for everyone, especially open source purists. What I am recommending is if you have those friends that won't use Linux because it is too hard to configure, sit them down at Linspire. This distro is filling a niche. That being said, don't ignore Linspire, regardless. Whether we like it or not, they represent Linux on some level of the playing field. We need to all work to keep them in check if they do have a tendency to be snake-oil salesmen. |
| beaveyOne Oct 20, 2004 12:54 PM EDT |
mojavelinux: Your experience with your wife mirrors the experience I had with my son. I originally had him running Red Hat, but he became very frustrated when MP3 files wouldn't play, and when Xine was "broken" because it couldn't handle DVDs. Games didn't work until I added the proprietary NVidia driver, and menu entries had to be manually created for many, many programs. It wasn't easy for him, and he became disgruntled with the whole Linux thing. Once I loaded his computer with Linspire, that changed. The NVidia drivers were configured automatically, all the plugins for the web browser were there, MP3 files could be played, movies could be watched, and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING that was installed through CNR had a nice icon in the menu tree for him to find. Everything worked. It changed his perspective on Linux, and now he likes his computer again. It also minimized my time investment, because I wasn't chasing around minor little problems anymore. I run Debian on my personal servers, Red Hat Enterprise on my business servers (need those HP Insight Agents working!), and Linspire on my personal desktops. Works for me. |
| mojavelinux Oct 22, 2004 3:55 AM EDT |
I believe that Linspire is proof that the face of Linux is changing. We have this very stable and secure operating system and we all like that. But we are raising our standards, expecting it to be extremely convenient as well. I truly believe that convenience is a form of maturity. When you look at tools like Eclipse over Vim, you see that the GUI is not trying to dumb-down the task as much as it is giving more power and extensions. I think that other distributions are going to trump Linspire eventually (or at least close the gap) because they will realize that if you go that little extra mile on the user interface design, it makes the whole experience something special. Linspire might be the first, but hopefully it won't stand alone for long (not to say that their aren't already distros on its tail). The point is, user's recognize that Linux could be even better, and it will come from the user interface end. |
| tzafrir Oct 23, 2004 7:35 PM EDT |
Type: anti Lindows With Mandrake the user "root" does not appear on the kdm login users choice, and cannot login through kdm by default. On SuSE it can, but you get a desktop background of a big bomb to let you know in the least intrusive way possible that you did something wrong. A typical user will work as root in Lindows. Never mind that the user has the choice: Linprise is not about giving users extra choice: it is about providing sane defaults. IMHO this default is insane. Furthermore, when it will blow up in their faces , the reputation of better Linux distros will be harmed as well, which is why I care. They dumped some of their money into Wine, but ran away when Wine's license has changed which has meant that those changes could not have been kept proporietary. They do support a limited number of projects. They support KDE indeed, but keep their own KDE desktop a proprietary set of "improvements". They make sure to make a very big deal of every contribution they make. They are practically the only distro that has the nerves to drop the basic "office" tools from its basic version. Reason: clients will pay for "office", because MS's clients will pay separately for MS's Office. But for me this means that the basic distro is worth much less than any other distro. They have a "free" (gratis) version indeed. I'd actually call it a demo version, as you need to pay to get updates, and don't tell me you want to work with an unpatched system. And the worst thing: They encourage their clients to pay extra 25$ or so for an "anti virus" for their Linux desktop. And a proprietary one. I'd say that this extra prioprietary piece of code makes their desktop even less secure. And it also encourages people to believe that Linux is virus-prone. They just have to get some extra bucks from their clients without thinking about the imlplecations. No. I wouldn't recommend it to nobody. I wouldn't trap an innocent user in such a trap. |
| beaveyOne Oct 25, 2004 9:30 AM EDT |
tzafrir: To each his own. I can respect your opinion, and indeed, I used to share it before I tried the distro. The point is, it works well for me, and that's the only thing I care about. First, I agree completely that Linspire doesn't push enough to make running as a non-root account the default. It bothers me a lot. They seem to be pig-headed about it for some reason, and spend a lot of time talking about how there isn't really a problem, because normal user accounts are available and work just fine. It doesn't bother me on my personal systems, though, because I simply create a user account and get to work. No big deal for me. It *is* a big deal, though, for a new user that doesn't know any better. I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "They support KDE indeed, but keep their own KDE desktop a proprietary set of 'improvements'." What are they keeping proprietary about the desktop? They have their own proprietary Click-And-Run service, but that's hardly the desktop. Basically, they just run KDE with Linspire-branding. They've made some tweaks here and there to KDE and Mozilla in order to make them blend with CNR, but you can get the source code to those packages, so what's the problem? I guess I don't know what you're talking about with this one. On your point about dropping the basic "office" tools from their base installation---what are you talking about? The only Linspire ISO that doesn't have OpenOffice installed is the ISO they make available for OEM system builders. My assumption was always that the OEMs might want to build a system with StarOffice instead of OpenOffice, and so Linspire made a very basic installation image for those folks. The standard install CD and the live CD both have OpenOffice installed by default. The free/demo version you talk about will let you use CNR for 15 days for free. You can use those 15 days to patch the system and try out some application installations, letting you play around with the system and try it out. If you don't like it, you can install a different distro. If you do, you can subscribe to CNR. Honestly, I'm not sure how that's a problem, either. And finally, yes, they do pitch their silly anti-virus application. I agree it's a bit crazy to install an anti-virus program in Linux, unless you're running a mail server that hosts POP3 accounts for Outlook Express users or something. I agree with you on this point as well. Installing a proprietary anti-virus package on a Linux distribution doesn't make any sense at all, and it's a marketing grab for cash on Linspire's part. Then again, if you don't want it, you don't need to buy it. To sum up, I agree with a couple of your points, but I think a lot of the "problems" you write about with the OS are really just annoyances. For the most part, nothing you mention affects my personal use of the system at all, and you can be sure that anyone I recommend Linspire to will NOT be running as root, and will NOT be installing anti-virus software. It's still the easiest Linux distro for a new user to get a handle on, IMO. No distro is perfect, and Linspire has its share of quirks and minor annoyances, but it's still the only distro that let my son use his computer without difficulty, and it's still the only distro I would install to my parents' computer. I just wouldn't want to support anything else, because Linspire makes everything so damn *easy* to do. One last thing: they are constantly working on improving the OS. I had a lot more complaints about Linspire around 6 months ago than I do today. They listen to user feedback, and they improve the OS on a regular basis. That means a lot to me, and for that, they have my respect. Crap, I'm starting to sound like a Linspire spokesman... not good... :) |
| noname Nov 26, 2005 7:36 AM EDT |
When you try to play dvd's they are very bad.Also you have to pay an additional $9.95 for that privledge.I can go on Knoppix for free and everything works fine,But linspire the multi media is bad.I really don't believe that linspire is worth the money.Sorry but i had to tell it like it is. |
| richo123 Nov 26, 2005 7:50 AM EDT |
My impression of Linspire: Bad points: A lot of hype pretending that Linux is like windows. It ain't and Linspire don't fix up the OS like M$ and associated commercial vendors fix up Winblows. The kernel developers do that for Linux mainly and Lindows has no control over them. Charge for things that anyone with half a brain can get working with other distros easily for free. Good points: Support some open source projects which I use eg nvu. |
| LinspireMan Nov 27, 2005 10:11 PM EDT |
I discovered Linspire last summer when I was looking at various Linux distributions on the Web. After many hours of reading, trying to decide which one to use, I definitely had to try Linspire Five-O. Quite honestly, I was impressed with everything I was reading about this Linux OS. Instead of fighting with installing programs, etc., there was actually a version of Linux that made it all very easy for the end-user. I had to check it out... Note that I am not your typical beginning Linspire user, as I am a Computer Analyst/Programmer by trade. Before switching to Linspire Five-O, I was a Mac OS X and Windows XP Home/Professional user. A few years ago I did try Red Hat 6.0 - how awful of an experience that was! Time to see what Linux was like in 2005... The thing I have not liked about other Linux distributions is the constant battle of trying to get things to work together. I tried SuSE Linux 9.3 Professional and, more recently, SuSE Linux 10.0, and I am not impressed at all with 10.0 because I received a DVD-ROM (DL) that had missing or corrupted packages. Sent an e-mail to the people at SuSE and not one response whatsoever. Not impressed! In June 2005 I decided to purchase Linspire Five-O (CNR Edition) along with a few things: cap/t-shirt, mouse pads, mug, etc. :) Let's just say that I will never go back to using SuSE Linux or even Windows XP (only when necessary). Presently, I am doing over 90% of my daily work in Linspire Five-O, and I just love using this OS. I don't get the spyware and virii problem associated with Windows XP, and I get very easy installation of programs that are available within the CNR Warehouse. Not to mention the GUI is very slick IMO - yes I know it is a refined version of KDE - it just looks better than the standard KDE look. That is the whole thing about Linspire too - it just looks better. As a CNR Gold member and Linspire Insider, I get huge discounts on commercial programs that are available. So I end up saving a lot of money, on something I think is very useful to me. I want to do my work, not fight with an OS to get it to work, and this is why I chose Linspire Five-O. Some of you people do not see the significance of Linspire's CNR Warehouse. Someday, ALL software will be sold and downloaded like this. If you do not believe me, look at Valve, and more recently, EA. It is the wave of the future that will make software somewhat cheaper than their physical counterparts. Without CNR, Linspire is just another Debian Linux distribution. CNR makes Linspire unique among all of the Linux distributions for its ease-of-use and software selection. I will dare say that there are many Linux distributions that wish they had something like the CNR service. As for SurfSafe and VirusSafe, I do subscribe to them and I think they are quite useful. Even though there are not many virii on the Linux platform, VirusSafe was actually able to find a Trojan Horse on my Windows XP Pro HD that my virus program in Windows could not find. Paid itself off right there IMO! SurfSafe is great to keep crap like porn off of my computers. I can't tell you how many times I have gone to a website that is supposed to be a legitimate academic website, only to find a damned porn site pop up on my screen. This program is great for people with children too. The things I especially like about Linspire are the public and Insider forums. I haven't had to ask for too much help, but when I have done so, many people respond to help people that do have questions. This impressed the hell out of me, the first time I had asked a question. Now, I help whenever I am able to in the forums. IMHO, the people in the forums are very friendly and quite helpful at any experience level, more so than any other Linux forum I have been to. They are a great bunch of people, and I am proud to call them fellow Linspire users. BTW, Linspire does give back source code to the Linux community. I guess some of you do not see the posted source code for many of their own improvements, as it is readily available on their website for all to view. The only thing they have not posted is the source code to CNR, and they have a legal right to do so since they invented the CNR Warehouse. You are not going to give out the source code on what makes your company unique. In regards, to running as root. As an IT professional, I would hate it if I could not run as root during installation. It is absolutely retarded to think that most users don't know any better to create a user account when the screen pops up during the Linspire Five-O installation. Please... Not all people are that uninformed. Give Linspire users some credit. I believe desktop Linux is going to take a major upswing in the computer world, and Linspire is going to be at the forefront of this revolution. So with that being said, for another 16 hours, you can get Linspire Five-O and CNR at 50% off on their website. :) |
| salparadise Nov 27, 2005 10:46 PM EDT |
Once Ubuntu has a point and click installer a lot of distros will fall by the wayside.
Linspire will likely be one of them. You should have a look at PCLinuxOS. There's three versions. The standard version, the "comes with NVIDIA driver" version and the "comes with ATI driver" version. A few seconds in the Preferences section of Synaptic adds online repositries that have libdvdcss as well as a LOT more software, all of which is free. I suppose Linspire offers something to fill the gap until the box makers get the idea and start making LInux installed boxes easily available. I tried Linspire once - too much like Disney-Linux for my liking. But if it works for you and you're happy to pay... |
| LinspireMan Nov 27, 2005 11:03 PM EDT |
salparadise: "I suppose Linspire offers something to fill the gap until the box makers get the idea and start making LInux installed boxes easily available." Box makers are getting the idea and starting to make Linux-installed boxes easily available. They are using Linspire Five-O too! :D Go to http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.ph... and look for retailers that are available. In fact, I have also joined the "box maker club." Please see http://www.seascape.us/. Linspire is going to have huge growth in the future, so I decided to invest in that future. |
| dinotrac Nov 28, 2005 12:09 AM EDT |
Wow. Linspire. Making money. Pulling a little marketing razzle-dazzle. Giving back code, and getting some people to use Linux who not otherwise do so. That's gotta be evil, right? We should all hate their guts, the dirty bastards. Not enough simply to use another distribution. |
| helios Nov 28, 2005 4:30 AM EDT |
Dang dino...your post almost made me pull back my post...almost. While the points you raise are valid, I have to wonder if Linspire isn't traveling the well worn path of Microsoft. "Just click here and we'll do the rest." Maybe its the elitist in me, but I'm seeing a dumbed down Linux here. Maybe that's good...maybe not. The arguement I have heard is that "once they get a taste of Linux, they will try other distros." I dun' think so Lucy... The marketing plan as I see it is set for those who are just too illiterate or lazy to take the couple of days necessary to get used to a real Linux environment. Yea for them in making a Linux for all to enjoy, boo-hiss for them seemingly to follow the "users are dumb/MS marketing plan". |
| dinotrac Nov 28, 2005 4:51 AM EDT |
helios -- The problem with Microsoft is not their marketing plan, but their monopoly and the rapacious way in which they capitalize on it. This may shock you, but lots of folks out there do not wish to acquire a CS degree, do not wish to be intimate with their machines. They want an appliance, something to let them get work done. If Linspire can figure out a way to let those people use Linux, and make a few dollars in the process, my hat is off to them. |
| helios Nov 28, 2005 5:17 AM EDT |
This may shock you, but lots of folks out there do not wish to acquire a CS degree, do not wish to be intimate with their machines. I sir, am a computer idiot...at least I was until hosed by a nasty variant of bagle, dry...no cream cheese or schmere of any kind. I have read your posts and work from the first day I visited lxer and I more than respect your opinion, I quote them from time to time...I simply feel that people should take more responsibility if they are going to set down behind a computer. Of course, if they did that; Computer Geeks and companies that fix computers would be out of business. I was asked to help with a Windows problem over the long weekend. I told them if they did not consider using Linux, i could not help them...helios don't do Windows. When I did query them about what the problem might be, I knew what the problem was and told them to open the control panel. Which was followed by a short silence and a clueless "huh?". I asked my friend how long she had been using Windows. "bout 4 years I think". I stamped it "case closed" and said good-bye. CS not needed for a simple change of settings in the control panel. |
| dinotrac Nov 28, 2005 5:41 AM EDT |
helios - I won't deny being sympathetic with your position. It frosts me no end that people will spend hours upon hours learning the intricacies of their mobile phones and every stupid trick their IPod can muster, but don't want to invest a lick in learning about their computers. And then, of course, call me up when they are running like molasses after an infection, or something has gone wonky or what-have-you. If Linspire can sell to them, that's fine with me. I'd rather have them be stupid with Linux than be stupid with Windows. I yearn for the day when every piece of hardware works with Linux out of the box. More users = more pressure. |
| TxtEdMacs Nov 28, 2005 5:53 AM EDT |
I must have stumbled upon an alternate universe ... find my self agreeing with dino posts. Must have been the coffee, sat there several days maybe it fermented. |
| dinotrac Nov 28, 2005 6:04 AM EDT |
txt -- Fermented coffee... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm |
| LinspireMan Dec 12, 2005 2:05 AM EDT |
re: helios "I was asked to help with a Windows problem over the long weekend. I told them if they did not consider using Linux, i could not help them... helios don't do Windows. When I did query them about what the problem might be, I knew what the problem was and told them to open the control panel. Which was followed by a short silence and a clueless "huh?". I asked my friend how long she had been using Windows. "bout 4 years I think". I stamped it "case closed" and said good-bye. CS not needed for a simple change of settings in the control panel." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, but as a professional Computer Analyst/Programmer, I have to tell you that has got to be one of the most ignorant things I have heard/read in a long time. How do you ever expect a person to want to consider switching to Linux when you give them an "I'm into Linux so I'm better than you" attitude when you talk to someone? Whether you realize it not, that is exactly what you are doing when treating someone like that. That comment just makes me want to shake my head in disgust. Here is how I would have handled that situation: I would have demonstrated to that person HOW to do it so they learn from the experience - very important if you want to get and retain customers. Then I would have let them see the same thing (if possible) in Linspire Five-O and how much more easier it is. This customer would most definitely remember my kindness in showing him/her how to do something they found difficult in Windows, and with all of the problems inherent in the Windows world, may just come back to ask about the Linspire Five-O demo I recently gave them. You have to realize that there are customers that don't know anything about computers, customers that know a little, customers that know enough to do almost everything on their own, and computer experts like myself. Not everyone has the same experience level with computers, and not everyone wants to become a computer programmer like myself. For example, my mother wants to get into the "Internet Age," so when I start building my Linspire-only systems she is going to get one of the first computers. I have to set everything up for her and show her everything because she is 62 and one of the people in this world that are overwhelmed by technological changes. Believe it or not, there are people like this. Take it from experience, customers appreciate it when you help them with learning how to do something on a computer whether it is Windows XP or some flavor of Linux. You win people over to Linux by showing them that they can do the same things in Linux as in Windows, and they can also do those things much cheaper in Linux than in Windows. No wonder Linux has such a hard time getting to the "desktop" with experiences like what you have given them. :-/ I have converted my whole household over to Linspire Five-O, and the beauty of it all is that I only have to pay for it once since it is a "family-friendly OS" which means I can install it on as many computers as I want in my house. Much better than Microsoft's restrictive licensing wouldn't you say? |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 12, 2005 4:25 AM EDT |
LsM - I have not seen your posts previously, hence, you may have easily missed some salient points about helios. To begin he has helped scores of Windows users without any possibility of compensation. That is, he is not in the computer business. His aiding people to see the advantages of Linux is an advocation in the strictest sense he will see no monetary gain from his efforts. Moreover, it takes his time away from his real (for cash business) and family. One can be friendly and helpful, however, too often it is the same people seeking help for the same problem that are total impervious to an alternate solution. It is not possible to repeat past history in every post, hence, helios' experiences result in a post that to some might seem callous. Let me simply say you are mistaken. |
| number6x Dec 12, 2005 5:35 AM EDT |
Linspire man, I think you're taking Helios' point wrong (most of us do). Think about the old saying: "If you sell a man a fish, he's not hungry for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you go out of business!" Well, maybe its not really an old saying, but how do you expect to truly help a Windows user that refuses to learn some of the basic tools needed to run Windows? Switching them to Linux won't help. A Windows user of four or five years that is not familiar with the control panel would be like a Linspire user of four or five years that didn't know what 'click and run' was. Doing things for a user like that is not the the solution. They need to learn to do some basic things for themselves. Helios did the right thing. Microsoft would like to keep everyone buying stale fish at a few hundred percent mark-up, and never have the customers learn the simple truth. They can buy their fish from others for a lot less, or even learn to fish for themselves! |
| slippery Dec 12, 2005 7:24 AM EDT |
The main problem I have with Linspire is that they rename common programs to make it look like they invented it or created something. For example, they rename Xine to LinDVD, Firefox is called LBrowser (or something close), etc. They take way too much credit for running sed on the source code to stick an LProgramName everywhere the real program name was. Click'N'Run is a service, so I have no issue there. I also recognize the good things they have done regarding NVU development and general Linux marketing. I think they have a good desktop focused distro, but I wish they would leave the program names alone. If they are just trying to make the programs more understandable for newbies, why not just have the menu entry say "DVD Player" and have it launch Xine. That is how Xandros does it. Changing the actual program name has a bad ethical smell. |
| Abe Dec 12, 2005 3:59 PM EDT |
LinspireMan, Between Linspire and Windows, I definitely will chose Linspire. Between Linspire and other Linux distros, I definitely will chose other Linux distro. The Five-O will not persuade me since I don't see any advantage of Linspire over others. On the contrary, I see many advantages of other distros over Linspire. Sorry man! |
| tadelste Dec 12, 2005 5:50 PM EDT |
Personally. I kinda like Linspire but not as a system for my own use. I tested it and gave it a nice write-up on Linux Journal. For an eye candy person, it's very cool. It's a bargain, actually. I do a lot of development and writing and prefer the gnome desktop. I used KDE for a long time and don't have a problem with it. But, doing administrative work, I prefer something closer to a window manager rather than a graphical desktop. I do everything remotely and often have several windows open at once. But, the distribution is fast. It works!!!! It is easy to use. Noobies take to it. And, the business plan is a boots on the ground approach. When I was in the Micro Center, the sales people were exicted about it and wanted to demo it. That made me smile. So, how can you not like something that makes sales people in a computer store smile? I think that a professional edition might convert some of the hard core techies. Clean up the desktop, make it minimal, use gnome and use your great graphics and themes. |
| dinotrac Dec 13, 2005 2:24 AM EDT |
Tom - amen!! |
| Abe Dec 13, 2005 5:59 AM EDT |
My problems with Linspire are not all technological, after all it is Debian Linux. It goes back to the start of, what was it, Lindows? Robinson tried to hijack Linux; They tried to wipe out the word Linux from every where and put their own buzzwords. No chance to test before you pay. Made outrageous claims of being able to run all MS Apps. Running as root. Etc... I don't mind distros making money, I think they are entitled since they spend a lot of resources and efforts to package and service their consumers. And why should I be forced to pay monthly for something I can download to keep apps up to date if other distros make it available for free? My feeling is, Linspire is trying to lock-in newbies and organization just like MS does with their's. |
| dinotrac Dec 13, 2005 6:45 AM EDT |
Abe - Whatever they are trying to do, they can't lock in anybody. That's the beauty of free software. If they create something that people don't wish to leave because it's comfortable and easy, that's ok. More power to them -- at least it ain't monopoly power. A million Linspires don't keep me from choosing something else if I want to. |
| SFN Dec 13, 2005 8:46 AM EDT |
[oldman] Frickin' unnecessarily wide posts. [/oldman] |
| Abe Dec 13, 2005 9:17 AM EDT |
Dino, No doubt about that. You and I and many others like us know that, but many newbies don't and eventually that would reflect badly on FOSS in general. I feel it is part of our FOSS advocacy to warn about such behavior. |
| S3Indiana Feb 04, 2007 6:17 AM EDT |
Update: CNR is now free to all Linspire/Freespire users (soon to be even more supported distributions through CNR.com http://cnr.com/). Freespire is the distribution designed for developers which the code will be promoted into Linspire (resolving any concern in the running as root issue). Give the Freespire 2.0 Alpha's http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Freespire_2 a test run... And the issue of renaming packages just look to Debian (Ice Weasel and Ice Dove for FF & TB)... |
| Egon_Spengler Feb 04, 2007 10:14 AM EDT |
Geeze, S3, nothing like raising a thread from the dead. C'mon, the crap about CNR hit EVERYTHING almost two weeks ago. Give it a rest. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!