learning linux
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| salparadise Oct 19, 2004 11:48 AM EDT |
Had an idea rolling about for the last few days. So I thought I'd put it up here and see what the reaction is. Personally, I'm eager to learn Linux, but find the amount and varying competence of online tutorials a bit daunting. I can work through tutorials but often could do with a bit more why and a bit less of "here's four methods to achieve the same end". I can't afford a lot of books and I certainly can't afford the sort of prices charged for Linux courses. So, it occurred to me... what about a Linux distro called something like Training Linux. Where you could choose differing levels of complexity which would (at it's easiest) give the user a full gui with tutorials on use and software and configuration and (at it's hardest) install a base system and lead you through building the system up. I was thinking of interactive tutorials. The end result I suppose would be pricey if it were to include "full sysadmin" tutorials. Maybe there could be different versions for user/business/corporate/sysadmin etc. I'm sort of thinking outloud here. The problem is, I'm in need of the learning and so can't do it myself. (Though I could contribute some to the "learning the gui" stuff). |
| r_a_trip Nov 05, 2004 3:55 AM EDT |
First off, better training material for GNU/Linux is always good. Now to your idea. I'm a bit confused. You'd like to learn linux, but you don't have a lot of money to spend on books. Nor the money to follow payed courses. You also indicate you don't want to read up on GNU/Linux through freely available how-to's, tutorials and other documentation. Your solution to this is the "Training Linux" distribution. A distribution specifically built and optimized to allow for Linux training, which is augmented with a custom, from scratch, built-in, interactive training framework. Which would be, like you already indicated, very very pricey. I think I'm going to "counter" you with some questions. I assume your daily OS is MS Windows. Did you read one how-to or one book and then you became a Windows power-user instantly? Did you begin using Windows with the expectation to know everything there is to know within one day? How many years did it take you to become proficient in using Windows? Please, understand that I'm not trying to knock you here. Learning GNU/Linux is pretty daunting, because it is a very affordable OS with a gargantuan scope for what you can use it. GNU/Linux is embedded, desktop, workstation and server all rolled in one OS. As such there is no quick, neat way to learn GNU/Linux in a few weeks. If you are cashstrapped, the most affordable way of learning to use GNU/Linux is by simply just using it. Knowledge and experience build over the years. I've been using GNU/Linux six years now and I'm still learning (and enjoying that). I've always found that knowledge is gained easier, if it was learned out of practical necessity. What good is it to theoretically know how to click button Y in package X, if you're never going to use package X? Just jump in, discover and learn as you go. I've never regretted it that I made the plunge six years ago. |
| salparadise Nov 05, 2004 8:25 AM EDT |
Actually, my daily OS is Linux, exclusively. I have used Mandrake for nigh on 2 years now and Ubuntu since I discovered it. I've also toyed with Slackware, Suse, Yoper, RedHat, and am experimenting with Vector Linux as an alternative for older hardware at work.
I surprised myself somewhat earlier this week by putting together a basic introduction to Linux sysadmin as part of the work I do. I also am putting together a Welcome to Linux document for the same purpose. (I'm involved with a pilot scheme to roll Linux out across the voluntary/charity sector in city where I live in the UK.
I guess I've learned more than I realise - often such knowledge doesn't show it's presence until needed.
Never-the-less, the idea I had wasn't so much as a "help me to learn linux with the minimum of effort" but seeing a need for such a distro that provided this kind of training because training IS expensive and because the current (relative) rarity of knowledge and support in this area holds back the takeup of Linux.
So it was really an attempt to just "get the idea out there" because there is sufficient potential manpower for the "community as a whole" to put together such a distro. |
| Trevelyan Nov 06, 2004 4:20 AM EDT |
I find most things you need to know, thats not specific to an app and so in its own docs, can be found on TLDP (the Linux documentation project)
http://tldp.org/ Also I point any new/novice users that want to know more beyond point and click to the hands on guide http://tldp.org/guides.html#intro-linux |
| Koriel Nov 09, 2004 3:09 AM EDT |
I basically learned by using Linux, I started from knowing zilch about linux went out and bought
a book about unix in general and a copy of slackware which came on about 20 floppies at the time. I then spent months wrestling with it, most of the time it beat me by 2 falls and a submission but eventually i started to get it, all made worse by the fact that i had no access to the internet at the time. This is the certifiable idiots way of doing things im sure their are a lot of easier alternatives about nowadays. Although i can still recommend Slackware for learning on. |
| helios Jan 06, 2005 5:39 AM EDT |
The day I made the decision to oust Windoze from my machine was one of the best decisions of my professional life. The day I realized the task ahead of me in learning this OS put quite a damper on my enthusiasm. That being said, having your network wiped out by sasser is strong incentive to learn new things. While the information on learning Linux truly spans the internet, there are some jewels in the mud that definitely merit a bookmark. Being that the heart of Linux beats within bash, the command line cannot be ignored regardless of the huge leap in gui improvements. Please take a look at: http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/linux/cmd/#s Although it is only a portion of the information you seek, it is a major tool in learning this system and I have found it the most comprehensive list of bash commands available. Sure you must chmod to the directory and chmod a+x to "get 'er done", this directory tells you why. cheers helios |
| gstrock Jan 06, 2005 11:49 AM EDT |
I think we have the best training
environment already: a computer
and the net. beyond that the one thing I need is a real life problem to help me focus, else my learning takes on a sort of aimless wandering. |
| tuxtom Feb 12, 2005 8:26 AM EDT |
I realize this thread is old, but I thought I'd echo the sentiments expressed above. Been using Linux since '97. Started with RedHat 4.0, then 5.0...blah, blah, blah. My real-life problem was to get X (AfterStep) and PPP running...pretty daunting back in those days...so I could surf porn. I stayed up till 4AM many a night reading man pages and screwing with things until I got it right. Had to edit driver source files and recompile, etc. I learned how to do it all by reading pages of text included with the distro or newsgroup threads. In other words, I EARNED MY KNOWLEDGE, I didn't buy it. There is no substitution for time and effort. Since then, I have been using Linux in professional production environments: apache, sshd, sendmail, bind, mysql, php, perl, java, iptables, ad infinitum. The installs and X desktops available today are OUTSTANDING, and to be perfectly honest, I have forgotten most of the stuff I used to stay up late getting to work because the new distros take care of most the gnarly configs for you. I have tried (and keep trying) many, many distros, and until recently used Mandrake for my desktop. However, I recently installed Ubuntu and will not be going back to RedHat-based systems. Bye-bye RPMs. I am converting my company's servers to Debian-based systems. I wish it didn't take so many years and so many failed dependencies to gain my aptitude. 8^) Try a live CD (Ubuntu? Knoppix?). After screwing around with that for a while you will gain confidence and pretty soon you will kinda know what you are doing and you will build a dual-boot box. After a while, you will convert your FAT/NTFS partitions to ReiserFS and never turn back. I know a hell of a lot, but I still don't know much...I have just learned to go to bed earlier. Oh, and I now get paid to have root!!!!! |
| packetpress Feb 13, 2005 6:05 AM EDT |
To start learning Linux, the Knoppix live CD is one of the best and even more so since O'Reilly released their "Hack" book on Knoppix. If you choose to install a distro, make sure that you can back out of any changes!! I use Acronis which lets me set up a vault partition where I can dump an image and recovery from that image on bootup. It's a pretty painless way to safe guard my workstation from my own stupidity :) I personally use Fedora C1+2 and SuSE for most of my work but on my laptop I love Xandros as it was completely painless to install and found even my wireless PCMCIA card. Not to mention it came packaged with Crossover (WINE on steroids). There was a mention about crummy tutorials, this was one of the reasons that I wrote a book called "Network Security Using Linux" and that each chapter is a stand alone guide for that topic. I start with where to download the files, how to use tar, how to install and do a basic configuration on alot of different applications like Snort, SSH, X.509 certificates, Apache, PHP, syslog-ng, NTP and more. You may find the book helpful or you may not. The preview can be found at http://www.packetpress.net and is free to download. It's the first serveral pages of each chapter. Packetpress |
| devnet Mar 24, 2005 2:59 PM EDT |
The best 'learning Linux' available is SimplyMEPIS. Robin Miller wrote a book that comes bundled with MEPIS called "Point and Click Linux" and it provides DVD instructional videos with it. You can find the book at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-419... It's been called the easiest linux book available by many sources that have reviewed it. I'd give it a try. For 20 bucks you can't go wrong. |
| hkwint Mar 25, 2005 12:23 AM EDT |
I myself found it a good lesson to install a stage1 Gentoo distribution (The documentation is very good and always explains why), but, since other distro's are named also, you should pick one and start, but be sure to . If you REALLY want to learn Linux however, I think you should consider Linux From Scratch / Beyond Linux From Scratch. It tells you how you can build a PC running KDE from ground up. See http://www.linuxfromscratch.org |
| br3n Mar 27, 2005 1:00 PM EDT |
i am nontech type,but if i can switch to linux anyone can.i started with mandrake 8.2 and am now at mdk 10.2 i love it and the day i wiped windows from my world completely was like a breath of fresh air entered the room.it took me longer to decide which distro to try first than it did to learn anything.i am not a gamer and dont care for flashy type stuff so my wants are fairly simple.the main problems i have even to this day is my hardware setup.old computer with newer monitor and ksplash seems to reset for some reason with the upgrades so i have to manually adjust and the settings seem to not be the same every time. command line is essential for when that happens also as you cannot get to gui screen at all.so make sure to have a few commands written down close at hand. my only real failure has been sound with this 2.6 kernel.i basically gave up till i could buy a new card. br3n |
| chalex Mar 27, 2005 1:06 PM EDT |
Reading the replies here, I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Gentoo. The Gentoo install process and the very detailed installation manual mostly do what you are proposing in your post. I have several friends that started out with no Linux knowledge and learned a lot by the end of the install. Many of the things you pick up during the install are applicable to other distros. Take a look at the manual here: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index.xml LinuxFromScratch is also cool, but more time consuming than I'd like. Also, I'm very much against the idea that users need to know how to compile and install software. I use Debian and it's been years since i've had to type ./configure... It's alsways 'aptitude install package_name' and a minute later it's done. (Knoppix, Ubuntu, SimplyMEPIS and many other distros are based on the Debian packages.) |
| devnet Mar 27, 2005 3:41 PM EDT |
bah!...gentoo is NOT for new users and neither is LinuxFromScratch. I'd point a new user toward those if I hated them...but only if I hated them. If I liked them I'd point them toward the distros I list below. Believe me...anyone just getting into Linux needs something to familiarize them with Linux in general and not 'emerge' or compiling from source. Slackware would be a better choice but not many new users can even do this. Anything that doesn't have a graphical installer is out of the question. The only distros that I can think would be good would be PCLinuxOS, MEPIS, Fedora Core, Mandrake, and Progeny. At least these have a good graphical installer and won't confuse the person out of the gate. Not only that, but then they'll have an operational desktop in a short time and they'll be right into doing the stuff they'd do with windows. |
| hkwint Mar 29, 2005 12:11 PM EDT |
Devnet:
bah!...gentoo is NOT for new users WHY NOT? I was a new user, and it's no big deal to learn it using Gentoo! Slackware is far more difficult than Gentoo since it has no package management, as far as I know, and you have to search a lot using the Graph. Installer. In fact, installing Slackware was more difficult then installing Gentoo, that's why I ditched Slackware after trying. You learn NOTHING out of using a graphical installer! New users definitely learn something when they're installing Gentoo. If they don't want to learn to compile etc, but instead use a graphical installer, then why do they want to learn Linux anyway? |
| dspp Mar 29, 2005 3:49 PM EDT |
To each his own, but I found Slackware to be a smooth install for my ancient machine at home and newer boxes at work. Also, Slackware does have a package manager: pkgtool. It doesn't check dependencies, but it works fine for some of us. I'll second the ease of Mepis. Run it off of a CD and you'll be amazed at what is supported. Three minutes and you're on the web browsing. Not too shabby. |
| devnet Mar 30, 2005 3:20 AM EDT |
hkwint: think about it. Why start with something that requires a person to partition, use command line interface, and compile/emerge? How many new users do you know that can do that? I know none outside of where I work. For a NEW USER...the bottom line is that you need a distro that will show them what linux can do and show them that they won't feel out of their element using it. We don't need a distro that drops them to a shell or does a text based install. I'm sorry guys, but slack and gentoo just won't do it for a common beginner. hkwint, you might be an exception...not every user is ready to even consider how to partition their drive for linux or what a swap partition is. I'm thinking that for what salparadise is saying...the new user distro of choice wouldn't be slack and gentoo. That would be more advanced section. |
| hkwint Mar 30, 2005 5:50 AM EDT |
Devnet: Well, you may be right. But I thought we were talking about people who want to learn Linux. When I think of learning linux, I can't help also thinking of command line and partitioning. So, our difference in opinion is what we mean with learning Linux. If you mean by learning Linux, understanding what exactly is done to install, then if you want to learn Linux Gentoo is of good use (or OpenBSD, if you tried the install once, you will know why it's good use for Linux as well). However, if you mean by learning Linux, they want to know what Linux can do, they also could use Linspire in my opinion. It's also a matter about how many time you want to spend for learning Linux. If you have lot's of time, like I had, Gentoo is ok. If you don't, I admit it's a bad idea to install everything from source, since you just want to USE linux. But, again, I think this thread was about learning linux, that's where my comments come from. And of course, it's a matter of what you're trying to reach with your learning curve. If you want to pass the LPIC exams, like I do, Gentoo is suited, in my opinion (own experience). This is also true for people that want exactly to know what's on their PC. For people wanting to learn to USE linux (this is also learning), I think MEPIS or Mandrake is better suited (I don't know the other distro's you mentioned). Now, please note, Salparadise, in the first post on this thread, said: I want to know why, and not "here's four different methods to achieve the same goal". From my own experience, I can tell, the Gentoo documentation tells you, in most cases, why you are doing something (except for the hardening pages... They just mention what you should do, not why). For example, in chapter 4, the installation doc explains what a block device / partition is, and the differences between file systems. It's also aimed at newbies. But only at newbies having the time to read 70 pages of install-instructions. Now, if they do that, they fairly know what they did, and why they did it. So, my conclusion is: If you want to learn the why's of Linux and have much time, Gentoo is ok. If you want to learn the why's of Linux and have oceans of time, try LFS/BLFS. If you want to learn what someone is able to do in Linux, consider Linspire. If you want to learn some why's of Linux, and want to learn how to work with it, and don't have much time, then Mandrake / Mepis may be suited. |
| varahan Oct 06, 2005 9:33 AM EDT |
Very late to this thread.
My views are as below:
For an average home user / non-techie a gui based distro like Mandrake would suffice. Thereafter one can try to learn linux and its CLI use. The purpose of using a GUI based installer is to induce an average computer user to dwelve into linux and slowly make him admire the power and flexibility of linux. |
| ffreeloader Oct 24, 2005 3:00 PM EDT |
I'm really late to this thread, but I have to sort of agree with the thought behind the advice to use Gentoo. I've been using Linux for a couple of years now, and I, for all practical purposes, started out with Debian. It took me 3 or 4 tries to get a working Woody install, but did I ever learn. To tell the truth it was that learning experience that sold me on Linux. I actually had the opportunity to learn more, a lot more, about my computer than Windows or any Window's wannabe distro would teach me. I had tried Mandrake 8 or 9 for a short but given up because it was too buggy. I could never figure out how to make it work correctly. Turns out it was a KDE bug, but I had no idea as to how to make a repair such as that then. I wanted an OS that would teach me a lot and then just work. Debian has been that for me. |
| MESMERIC Oct 24, 2005 7:55 PM EDT |
Basic Level Books and resources: http://www.tuxfiles.org/ (best online tutorial ever, shame it is incomplete) The Complete Linux Handbook 2 (extremely rare, out of print) from the makers of Linux Format. Linux Point and Click by Robin Miller (founder of Mepis Distro) http://www.phptr.com/title/0131488724 Get Started with Mandriva LE 2005 (extremely rare, possibly out of print) from the makers of Linux Format. (Do not get Get Started with Fedora 4 from the same people, it is nearly a rewrite of the latter but with titles changed) those Linux resources are the most newcomer-friendly I've come across to date. I wish I could write a book myself on Desktop Linux. But would need a sponsor for that. I am confident I could write the best book to date, aimed at the newcomer. I think, I am pretty good at dumbing things down with illustrations / real life examples / etc. Something I've learnt from my T.E.F.L training. And applied when I used to be a Maths teacher. salparadise: your idea is excellent. but building a distro is so hard. even with a dedicated team we are finding it a massive challenge getting the next release of Yoper out. I had an idea of building a "Granny OS" - a customized Linux for older people. Huge Icons, light weight - with things that only interest and matters to them: Board Games, Safe Browsing, Safe Email, Gramps (Geneological Tree) but made simpler etc. No menu, no console, navigation done only through maximum 7 icons on the screen (like ATM cash machines) .. but had to give up dreaming :( |
| Bob_Robertson Oct 27, 2005 2:02 PM EDT |
I installed Debian from floppies, subscribed to the debian-user mailing list (digest mode, by Cromm the traffic!) and then read one HowTo at a time as needed. The discussions in forums touched on topics I had never thought of, and gave me tips I found I could use. I never had a "book" on Linux, although I've recommended the ones that come with a CD distribution included on more than one occasion. "Dive in" does indeed hit me as the most effective way to learn. After all, that's the way people learned computers in the first place, only with what was "pre-installed". (nudge nudge wink wink) |
| sabre307 Nov 08, 2005 6:19 PM EDT |
They have a "Training Linux", it's commonly refered to as "Gentoo" though. There is no better way to become a power linux user than to compile every piece of software on your system, including the kernel, yourself. With Gentoo's step by step guide, it's like having someone standing over your shoulder telling you what to do and explaining everything along the way. Try it out, Oh yeah, the best part is... IT'S FREE!!!! Just find an old computer and start loading. |
| pmcc Dec 17, 2005 1:57 PM EDT |
These are just my views, and I too am joining this post way late... For starters, it is my belief that most people who purchase a new system are stuck with whatever OS is already loaded on it. With that said, I feel that most computer users are very reluctant to even attempt a Linux installation on their own. It's sad to say, but unless they know somebody who is willing to take the time to change their OS for them, these people will remain stuck with M$ Windoze or Mac. I honestly wish that more desktops and laptops being sold at places like Best Buy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart, etc. would come equipped and ready to roll with a Linux distribution already installed and configured. That way a customer would have an alternative choice other than getting something loaded with the bloatware from the Redmond gang. If that were the case, then you could have available a training video/CD showing a newbie how to use their system. And later on (after gaining experience with their spiffy Linux box), they hopefully become more adventurous and might feel the desire to learn more by reading the HOWTO's, Man pages, and an occasional book. The real problem seems to be a lack of choices when it comes to buying a new computer from a retail outlet. Besides mail-order, I don't know of any place around town that sells a fully functional Linux box. Maybe there are the local mom-and-pop shops that offer a Linux box, but most consumers who are looking to purchase a system don't really know where to go. So, they're stuck with what they do know (through advertising) and wind up going to Best Buy, Radio Shack, Circuit City, and so on. Once again, these are your average, everyday users who do not want or feel the need to try their hand at something they feel could seriously break something. In other words, these are the technically challenged. They probably didn't load Windoze themselves, so I doubt that they will be brave enough to attempt installing Linux. Live CD's are a great starting point for some of these users, but they are still left with a bloatware system when they are through. Another problem with Live CD's is that some of these users might not have a clue as to what a Live CD really is, and they certainly aren't about to find out. I wish there was a quick fix to all of this, but due to the fact that Billy boy has a stranglehold on the average user's mind, it makes it even more difficult to convince these individuals to even try Linux unless they can see it for themselves. That's why it would be a major breakthrough if the above mentioned retailers had properly configured systems already available for the general public to see in action. Screenshots are great, but your average user isn't going to go hunting for them, because they aren't searching for an OS alternative. Their only available alternative from these chains would more than likely be Mac. Anyway, as I mentioned at the beginning of this reply, these are only my views. I hope this sheds some light on how I see things, and if anyone else has additional information that I might be leaving out, feel free to comment. |
| dinotrac Dec 17, 2005 2:30 PM EDT |
Hmmmm.... It's hard for me to imagine that somebody can come up with a computer, Linux, an internet connection, etc, can't spring $30 for Matt Welsh's Running Linux from Amazon. That ain't a bad way to go. |
| Abe Dec 17, 2005 4:36 PM EDT |
salparadise's idea is the same as mine which I have been pondering over for a while. At the company I work for, we constantly use Computer Based Training (CBT) to keep the employees proficient in their jobs and meet pace setter safety standards. We have material for various disciplines standards, safety and regulations. We purchase this material and it costs thousands of dollars. They are professionally created and consists of audio and full motion vedio. It also includes examinations especially for safety training purposes to meet Government and State regulations and standards. They are excellent and very effective and available to all employees over the network via a browser. I think this is what salparadise is thinking of. Unfortunately, they are very costly to produce. I am sure they can be made by volunteers who need to be qualified and experienced in motion picture production. But I am not sure if the tools needed to create the material are available for free. With the latest advances, I am sure it can be done for a lot less cost. One key tool that is very essential is a video screen capture. There are few decent ones for Linux like vnc2swf http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/vnc2swf/ & wink http://www.debugmode.com/wink/ & Istanbul http://live.gnome.org/Istanbul but not good enough yet. It might take a company like IBM or Novell to produce something like this. I am not sure about the return for them but for Linux proliferation it would be tremendous. |
| dandielionous Jan 01, 2006 6:32 PM EDT |
I am a new user to Mandrake Linux 10.1. I installed about a 3 weeks ago. I have learned a lot by reading this forum. I appreciate the links. I can tell you as a newbie what I want: I want a GUI for idiots. That works just like windows did for me. That I can click on an exe file and have it install and actually work. I go to do one thing on this os and spend days and weeks researching, going to chats, crying and still at the end of it all end up with nothing. Yes it is a good learning tool to learn how to do things myself. Yes it is a good idea to build a computer from scratch. But I think if linux is to ever completely be competitive with windows it's going to have to be a lot more user friendly. Even finding one os that is a GUI enviroment that will install correctly has taken me 3 years to get this far. Yes it took me a while to learn windows. I took computers in College in the 80s. I learned on Tandy's with a green and yellow screen. I played games that were all text games and was impressed all to #### when 16 colors came in. I've paid my dues. And I'm tired of paying dues. I want to keep my financial records. Be geeky once in a while. Know how to maintain my computer. Know where my devices are. Basically let me make this real simple. I want to write a book, check my e-mail, play a game, chat online, keep track of my finances. I have limited time. I work full-time. I want my hobby to be writing a book. Instead my hobby is building computers, learning operating systems and learning languages. Because every year something new is out there. I just want the computer to act as simply as my calculator to be a tool. A tool. And that's what I want an operating system to do for me. Make it so I can use my computer for the things that I want to do. Sorry, I'm tired and overwhelmed. I'm exasperated. And I wish someone had invented a linux program that would do it all for me without me having to do too much work on my own. I don't want to keep reinventing the wheel. I just want to use my computer. I can't even get radio music off the net. Thank-you; dandielionous |
| superfly Jan 02, 2006 3:25 AM EDT |
thank you dandielionous, you've said it. all the rest of us are GEEKS remember... we want to do all that command line stuff. your average windows user doesn't know anything about computers! they have no idea what a command line is! to quote a lady at a previous company i worked for, "i don't want a technical explanation, i just want it to work!" forget lfs, gentoo, slack, debian, they are too technical for joe bloggs. to get joe bloggs onto linux, you need a distro that has pretty pictures and wizards a-plenty. personally, i'd love to do lfs or a gentoo stage1 install, but that's me, a 3rd generation geek (my mom was a programmer, her dad was a systems engineer). but that's not what joe bloggs wants. whether we like it or not, joe bloggs wants linux to look and work just like windows. BUT... once we have him on linux, then we can start with the technical stuff... we just have to get him there first. |
| jimf Jan 02, 2006 3:39 AM EDT |
dandielionous, I suspect you would be very happy with pclinuxos. It is a derivative of mandrake/mandrevia, and has the stuff that you mentioned without much setup at all. Oh, and unlike mandrevia, the latest version is free as beer. |
| Abe Jan 02, 2006 5:40 AM EDT |
dandielionous, Most of what you are asking for wasn't available couple years ago but today, it is currently available on various distros. Knoppix, Kanotix, Mepis, PCLinuxOS, are all very good desktop distributions that use Synaptic tool for application installation. Synaptic uses server repositories available on the internet. When you launch it and select reload option, it gives you a very long list of all Standard and Basic applications which you can select to install, update, or de-install. I thing it puts Windows installer to shame because it does not only install selected single application, it will also enable you to install/update/de-install a whole group of application. It resolves all dependencies and will let you know of any problems which rarely happens. You don't even need to do a manual download since it does it automatically for you. In regards to one click install, you have multiple options. If you are using KDE, you can download any RPM file and click on it and KDE will install it for you. I can't say you wont have problems, because some times you will due to dependecies. These dependencies exist because developers constantly keep enhancing applications. They create the binaries for all of us using libraries they have at the time which could be different from what we have on our computers. FOSS is highly dynamic and these dependencies are the cost of the rapidly evolving applications. In addition to that, distros like Mandrake and Suse (Yast2) Linux have their own tools to facilitate and streamline the process to install applications. Another fairly new tool which has a create potential is "Klik". Klik allows you to install applications with a single click using a browser. Not all distros are supported yet, but you can use it with it on PCLinux, Kanotix, OpenSuse 10 along with few others. This approach is excellent if you need an application on the fly. It will do all the work for you and it has no dependency problem at all since it is self contained. You see, there are a lot of tools availalbe. All you have to do is to know about them. This is something no body is going to be able to teach you and you have to learn it yourself. I hope you don't expect to be fed with a silver spoon! No buddy is going to do that. I am sure you spent quite a bit of time getting familiar with Windows, at least you have to spend a lot less time getting familiar with Linux in particular and FOSS in general. If you read me previous post above, there are contributors who are working on getting Computer Based Training (CBT) to improve and shorten the learning process. Take for instance OpenOffice.org (OOo), ROBLIMO (code name) just wrote a book that you can buy and has a CD that contains a CBT to learn OOo. May be when you write your books you would use similar tools to make your books more user friendly. |
| jimf Jan 02, 2006 6:22 AM EDT |
Abe, I would normally recomend a Debian based distro like Kanotix or Mepis, but right now all of them are having trouble geting it together... Just bad timing for that flawless interface. I know that will change radically for the better in a couple of months. |
| skybluepink Jan 02, 2006 6:39 AM EDT |
to start I wish all of you the best of everything good. and I hope you all had a merry christmas. back to salparadise's idea of a learning system. I think it would turn far more windows users to linux in this year if it was implemented. I came across a package of 5 or 6 cd's , I cant remember I lent them out and they are on their 5 th borrower and I havent even had a chance to use them all. they are a microsoft office set. they have 3 settings easy medium and experienced. you put them in your drive and they show you how to start a file and they show you then you can try and if you hit the right keys you get pretty bell things.but it showed me a couple of things right off the start. now I see open office has a system like this for download. I have been fighting viruses and personal stuff so I havent been able to find it yet. but it is available for download.to compare price the microsoft trainer was $20.can. for 5 cd's. to extend this to a trainer for linux would just be so useful I can't imagine any thing but positive thoughs for it.should I think out loud and wish for a trainer for each distro? or to cover everything linux? like the command line, I have a real hard time with that. as for the man pages and iformation on the net about linux, I have read so much stuff that I didnt understand that confuses me and guess what, after trying to install mandriva fo the 10th time I am back to windows to get on the net and do some more resaerch on linux to see if I can figure out what I am doing wrong.now I am not one of these brand name guys except for my chevy's, they are the best vehicles made. haha. but even when I was riding my yamaha motorcycle, allthe harley guys would pick on me in good fun, and when they went for a ride they all stopped at my house to see if I was coming. so it doesnt matter what you use as long as you do what you want and have fun. oh and I dont mind flames as long as your tongue is sticking out your cheek. ok that said what do I know about computers ? not much I got my first with win98se on it 3 years ago. I got mad that every time I wanted to try something I would have to BUY the program or get a bootleg copy. then I met a guy selling mandrake 9.1 for $10. for 4 cd's. it took me about 10 installs and it was working. wow. since then I built 2 towers and found out about overclocking. I got both out of a garbage can and with all my life long hacking I fixed them. the first a slot 1 p2 233 mhz that I got up to 416 mhz. second was another slot 1 p2 233, I recently got it up to 945 mhz. and I think I should get about 1250 mhz out of it. but slow steps. or you overcook! oh and I won a golden screwdriver award 25 years ago from my dad's cb radio club for making a co-pilot cb go from 4 watts to 25 watts AM, and from 12 watts to 50 watts SSB. so I am not a young noobie,but I am not afraid to try anything once. back to training cd's, how about one just on installing any linux. I average 10 trys before it's working, then to install the updates, then to install the flash,adobe,zip,macromedia,itunes etc. if those 3 topics were covered it would gain a lot of popularity fast. so to put forth this years challenge. someone make a training cd that will cover begginer to expert. I believe that to convert windows user you have to make it more friendly. as well as computer store owners, start selling distro's. people like to see and touch the product. there is a kiosk type unit in africa that will burn the updated demo of your choice, these have got to be made available everywhere. I believe with these simple steps linux will grow. but so will the problems. but we know this. so what's stopping us? I don't want to take over the world, I just want them to know there is a choice. but that computers all run on the internet so they should be compatible and you need standards for that. like what happened to USB big corporations? I thought it was supposed to be a standard! buy I have at least 6 different usb connections on different devices I use. here is a kiss to remind you to KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. well thats it for me , one last thing lead follow or get out of the way! PS. I dont care about spelling mistakes or grammar so dont complain about it. |
| Abe Jan 02, 2006 7:01 AM EDT |
Jimf, Suse is my favorite and I have been using it for a long time (6 years). However, I do periodically keep checking other distros, mainly PCLinuxOS, Kanotix, Kubuntu & Mepis. I am not sure what you mean by "trouble getting it together...", could you elaborate or be a little more specific? thanks |
| jimf Jan 02, 2006 8:57 AM EDT |
Abe, currently all of the Debian based Distros are waiting for kde 3.5 and xorg 7.0 to at least go to unstable in the Debian repos. As soon as that happens (pretty soon I think), You'll see Kanotix, Mepis, and anyone else who uses Debian unstable as a base, get serious about a significant release. You will also see Debian get a lot more popular :) But, in the mean time, everything is in transition, so, they are all biding their time. Understand that all apps pass through experimental, unstable, and testing to get to testing. This process assures that stable Debian really is 'stable', perhaps more than any other Distro. The Distros that build off unstable and testing are doing so to gain whatever features are available in the latest app releases, but, this also means that they are trying to build a Distro which is reliable enough for (at least) desktop use. Most times testing and actually unstable Debian are at least as stable as most other Distros at final release. However, during some of the major transitions there may be problems. That's when it takes real expertise to run testing and unstable Debian or to incorporate that in a derivative Distro with assurance of reliability. That's what is happening right now. |
| Abe Jan 02, 2006 10:31 AM EDT |
Jimf, OK thanks, I thought you have known about a more serious issue I wasn't aware of. What you described is the normal Debian process, which by the way is very effective and beneficial for a stable final release. Contrary to the MS product release process, I think we can safely use Debian unstable on desktops without many major problems. Most of Debian based distros use unstable releases and they basically become a wider test bed for it. This really improves the final release making Debian more stable reliable distro. |
| jimf Jan 02, 2006 1:53 PM EDT |
Well Abe, let's take this a step further. My current Desktop is rock solid, and made up of items from stable all the way to experimental. For example, xorg is the latest version in experimental, but kde is still at the last version unstable before 3.5. That's not to difficult for an individual desktop, if you take your time and know what you're doing. But, the thought of trying to produce a reliable desktop for a large variety of people on extremely varied hardware is at this point a nearly impossible task... I sure wouldn't tackle it :) Warren and Kano are wise to be conservative at this point in time. |
| Abe Jan 03, 2006 10:34 AM EDT |
Jimf,
You got a point there. Last weekend I downloaded Kanotix and gave it a good test, it is reallygood. I would say as good as Mepis if not better in some areas and contents. I like Mepis too but some times I wonder about warren's thoughts towards GPL. I am not sure whether he is sincere about it or not. He might be trying to protect his products from freeloaders and with that, I agree with him especially for commercial use. |
| jimf Jan 03, 2006 1:17 PM EDT |
Abe, In spite of the fact that I run Debian, I have nothing against Warren's use of GPL or the fact that he makes a living off the Distro. All of the issues that were brought up in past were addressed and answered. Warren pretty much now does things by the book, and, and all the rumors and innuendos are merely the result of the more fanatical Debian and GPL trying to make an issue of nothing. I notice that many Ubuntuites are usually prominent in these attacks... Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. |
| burdicda Feb 05, 2006 3:34 AM EDT |
If you can find one.....join a Linux user's group
If you have internet connectivity.....get on irc Nothing will get you up to speed faster than those two... Realtime questions.....Realtime answers.... |
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