Should be read GNOME Gripes
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| MESMERIC Jul 26, 2005 9:13 PM EDT |
But even then I am extremely surprised at something here.
This guy is supposed to be skilled at Linux.
I don't consider myself to be so - and yet managed to have 2 Linux desktops incredibly made functional.
One for my sister (running Fedora Core 3)
and one for this business guy (running Mandriva) who was kind enough to give me some pocket money for the effort.
(I run Yoper). Because these users are not your average techno-geek and can't care less whether Emacs is present or not. The emphasis on both desktop was gearead towards Multi-media as well as office productivity. All plugins were made to work either on Gnome (Fedora) or KDE (Mandriva). Java, Flash were of course installed and enabled. Mplayer plugin with all the codecs ensured at least 90% of sites bearing video should stream. Including RealNetworks feeds from the BBC website. I do not understand what he means by Clipboard and Java. There are two clipboards: one works via select to copy + middle button to paste the other works like windows CTRL+C / CTRL+V Java only works with the latter, that is probably designed for consistency across platforms. If he is having trouble he should enable xcutsel Back to the desktops I've installed: Printer worked. Scanner worked. Audio recording worked. Synaptics. Webcam. USB pen drives. ATI worked well (including OpenGL games). I also made their internal modem work by using linuxant commercial drivers. The only area I got seriously stuck was making my sister PDA (Tungsten-something) synchronize. I admit I felt helpless and embarrased. And her ignorant remarks "I thought you said Linux was good", made me wished at one point - I'd remove everything out and let her experience the Windows nightmare. Linux Desktop is admittedly extremely hard to configure - specially if you want everything working. But it is not "unusable". We shouldn't send that wrong message. Linux is still and will always be a Server OS meaning: there is a strong distinction between user and administrator. It is easy to be a user, not so easy to administer. But if done properly the user will experience Bliss. Matthew Newton is pretty inexperienced and amateurish on that article. I cringe when people with hardly much experience takes up the Linux flag - and people see them as the "voice" of the OSS community. If you want to gripe about something not working then: * First Research properly * Get help from an experienced person. even if the person goes to your own home. If both attempts fail. Then yeah sure gripe away. Better still take active part in pushing for a solution as well. (Bad articles is *not* the solution) If you can't program then seek mailing list persuading people to help on that. Erroneous articles such as this, will only put people off Linux. Be pro-active email Michael Robertson if you must. |
| dinotrac Jul 27, 2005 2:56 AM EDT |
Oh please. I started using KDE before it went 1.0 and I have the same kinds of problems -- moreso when using a system that I haven't had the time/energy to go a huntin' for all the good bits. I much prefer my KDE desktop to Windows (BTW -- the Windows clipboard frustrates the hell out of me), but I wish it played with the internet better. If it bothered me all that much, I suppose I could pop for Crossover, and get nearly there with a fairly low level of effort. There is no point in pretending that Linux has no warts. Personally, I can live with Linux's warts more easily than Windows's leprosy, but that doesn't make Linux perfect. |
| r_a_trip Jul 27, 2005 7:08 AM EDT |
Using a computer comes with responsibility to work with and around the limitations of the system. Throwing your hands in the air and cry "I just want it all to work and I want it to work now!" simply doesn't help. I'm not about to gloss over the nasty parts of GNU/Linux. They are definitely there. I also know these weak spots are being improved every day that goes by. Yet, attacking the flaws, that are mostly outside of the FOSS community's grasp, is doing GNU/Linux a disservice. Multimedia will be a weak spot for as long as this is a patent laden minefield under the control of proprietary behemoths hellbent on controlling every aspect of "their" codec. If you want simple, irresponsible computing, just use Windows or OS X. Freedom comes with some discomfort, as it is not the easy way. |
| sbergman27 Jul 27, 2005 7:41 AM EDT |
> Using a computer comes with responsibility to work with and around the limitations of the system. This defensive stance is becoming all too common in the community. When things happen to be easier in Linux than in Windows, we're the first to point it out, over and over. But if there are problems in Linux, well it's the users "responsibility" to know how to work around them. This attitude is sometimes associated with the related idea of requiring "operator licenses" (similar to driver's licenses) for using a computer. Why does the community so often see constructive criticism as an "attack"? The article is sympathetic. It is quite obviously intended in a constructive way. And it makes some good points. The Gnome icon thing is not that big a deal, but it is squarely in our court. There's no blaming third party web sites for that one. The multimedia thing is a hard problem for the community to solve, as there are unsympathetic third parties involved. You point out patents on formats. But currently, the real problem is delivery. I can pretty much play any format out there, using binary codecs, in mplayer... once they are downloaded. But most sites (like CNN) implement the delivery in such a way that I can't just click and watch like Windows and MacOSX users can. No, I've got to muck around viewing the source for the web page to locate the url for the video, get it downloaded some way, and play it manually. mplayer plugin just locks the X session. Someone might be able to do something with plugger. But I suspect that the only real solution today is to run Windows or MacOSX, or install Crossover with IE and WMP. The latter solution is notably inferior for the purpose than the previous two. So the end result is that in most cases it is usually just too much trouble to mess with multimedia on the internet under Linux. Though it's easy on Windows. And, truth be told, many things are still that way. Didn't we just call Windows users "stupid" the other day? I'll have to re-think that one... But... I'm with Dean and the author of the article. I'll still take Linux, warts and all, before Windows' leprosy, though I think Dean was being unnecessarily conservative with his metaphor. I would have chosen "ebola". ;-) |
| dinotrac Jul 27, 2005 8:03 AM EDT |
Steve - Ebola certainly is dramatic and deadly, but tends to be characterized by brief and localized explosions because of the speed with which it kills its victims. Too few live long enough to spread the disease very far. Maybe the Plague... Seriously, though, this stuff starts to sound like post-election recriminations: Blame the voter (stupid/duped/homophobic/racist/frightened/lemmings) Blame forces beyond your control (continued fear of 9-11/big money/Rush Limbaugh/Michael Moore) Come inauguration day, it doesn't matter. The other guy is standing up their with a hand on the bible. If Windows users are really too stupid to use Linux, it just means that Linux can't grow very much, because they's a lot of Windows users out there. If patents or forces beyond our control keep Linux from dealing well with mutlimedia, it doesn't matter either. Multimedia is a PITA, and that's the part that matters. So why whine? Smile, say yes, but we're working on it. And, say, if you can live with those problems for a while, we've got a whole lot to offer. Let me tell you about the last time my computer got infected by a virus -- oh, wait!! I can't. It's never been infected. |
| sbergman27 Jul 27, 2005 8:52 AM EDT |
> So why whine? Smile, say yes, but we're working on it. And, say, if you can live with those problems for a while, we've got a whole lot to offer. Let me tell you about the last time my computer got infected by a virus -- oh, wait!! I can't. It's never been infected. Well, at one of my client sites where I run a Fedora server and 20 or so Walmart/Microtel stations acting as X Terminals, the general manager asked about running multimedia from (general, third party) web sites. Faced with the combined problem of Linux being able to do what he wanted at all, in a reliable fashion, plus the problem of doing so over an X connection at 100Mbits, with a VESA Xserver on the other end, I employed the age old custom of hemming and hawing a bit. I then decided to just tell the truth. I said that we might come up with a way, but no, it's not a triviality. To which he said "Good. I don't really want them watching videos anyway." Sometimes a perceived weakness is actually a strength in disguise. :-) |
| dinotrac Jul 27, 2005 9:00 AM EDT |
Quoting: Sometimes a perceived weakness is actually a strength in disguise. :-) I like it! |
| SFN Jul 27, 2005 9:55 AM EDT |
Just personally, I've had all of these problems before but they've all been resolved in the last couple of releases of distros I've tried. I'm using Ubuntu now and none of those problems exist. The same was true for the last version of SuSE I tried as well as Xandros. Sure, there were tweaks that had to be performed for Ubuntu but they were very clearly detailed in the user forum. SuSE was a bit more problematic but I was able to get it going. Xandros, if I'm remembering correctly, just worked from the start. |
| sbergman27 Jul 27, 2005 10:15 AM EDT |
OK. Go to http://www.cnn.com and watch the video about the boy scout who is recovering from the bear attack. Or go to http://starshipexeter.com and watch their Star Trek fan films. (Which are excellent, by the way.) Viewing the page source, downloading, and then playing the video would be considered cheating. Pretend you are a regular computer user. Click, and just expect to be able to view them on your modern Linux distro. |
| SFN Jul 27, 2005 11:50 AM EDT |
OK. It will have to wait until tonight. No desktop Linux at work today. I have watched other CNN videos at home so I don't anticipate any problems. The fact that so many people still have problems with this has me very curious so I'll be sure and post on this. |
| SFN Jul 27, 2005 11:55 AM EDT |
LOL starshipexeter.com is blocked by our content filter. Do we get to see Troi naked? |
| number6x Jul 27, 2005 1:59 PM EDT |
starshipexeter, clicked on a movie file, kaffeine plugin for mozilla started the .mov file fine. cnn sight asks me to upgrade to something called Windows media player and gives me a link to windowsmedia.com/download. I cheated and looked at the source. They are checking specifically for a certain subset of media players. This example does not point out any faults in Linux, but points out the poor website design at cnn.com. I'm sure that cnn.com's investors would not be happy to know that the website is actively working to annoy customers and lose business, but hey that is cnn's problem. It has nothing to do with Linux. |
| r_a_trip Jul 27, 2005 3:08 PM EDT |
Click, and just expect to be able to view on your modern Linux distro. Sorry, GNU/Linux users are more aware of what the reality of using computers is. The expectation that everything will be lukewarm and ready to swallow is reserved for the typical Windows user. Besides, CNN nicely gives the warning that their site is WMV 9 infected. If we want a Free internet, we need to tell people that WMV nine is not an enabler. No matter how easy it is to use in Windows. Locking up your stuff in proprietary formats is bartering your Freedom for short term convenience... |
| SFN Jul 28, 2005 4:49 AM EDT |
The starshipexeter.com stuff played beautifully. You're right about CNN. As stated above, it specifically looks for Windows Media Player 9. However, I was able to play Windows Media files as well as MPGs, AVIs, and QuickTime files on numerous other sites without any issue whatsoever If a site looks not only for a specific player but a specific version of a specific player, not only are Linux users not going to be able to keep up, neither are users of any other OS, with the exception of Windows users who take every upgrade that Microsoft throws at them. That's not a Linux problem, that's a site problem. Honestly, I'm not one of those Linux users who cries foul whenever a Linux shortcoming is pointed out and I’m not one of those people who says, “I got it working - don’t know what YOU’RE problem is”. This issue is simply not an issue anymore. |
| sbergman27 Jul 28, 2005 11:47 AM EDT |
OK. So nobody has come back and said Linux just worked. At best, the chances were 50/50. So summarizing the responses, we have: 1. kaffeine plugin seems to work about 50/50. (How many distros come with kaffeine installed, btw? Mine does not. But others very well may.) 2. Over all, the response has been that Linux worked about 50/50. 3. GNU/Linux users are smart and Windows users are ignorant. 3a. In particular, we know a lot more about "freedom" than *those* ignorant slobs. 4. It's all CNN's fault. 5. This is simply not a problem anymore. Sorry, r_a_trip. The reason Windows users expect more things to "just work" on the web is that more things *do* "just work" for them on the web, no matter whose "fault" it is, and denying the fact is silly. (And to the non-believers, it sounds whiny.) OSS was built on the philosophy that we can make things work better than they do now, and not upon complacency and denial (and no, that's not just a river in Egypt. ;-) -Steve |
| SFN Jul 28, 2005 1:23 PM EDT |
50/50? I had one site that didn't work. That site doesn't work for anybody that responded. Remember, it's not that we can't view Windows Media files. We can't view CNN's Windows Media Files. Great, so it works for Windows users. Could this be labeled a Linux shortcoming if it was a site that only worked for Mac users? And how exactly would the makers of a particular distro solve this problem? Even if they did get things just right so that CNN's Windows Media 9 files get read, what happens when CNN changes to files that can only be read by Windows Media 11? Is everybody supposed to scramble to fix their players so that CNN's files can be viewed? Look at it another way. Suppose the Corporation for Public Broadcasting decided to start broadcasting Space Shuttle missions nightly but encoded them in such a way that it could only be viewed on televisions manufactured by SONY that had a special chip in them. Would it be the responsibility of, say, Zenith to start manufacturing all of their televisions with that chip so that people could view these broadcasts? What if after Zenith did that, the CPB altered the broadcasts so that they could only be viewed in brand new SONY TVs? At some point - to me it should be from inception, but certainly at some point - it becomes the responsibility of the provider of content to provide content in such a way that people can actually access it. |
| dinotrac Jul 28, 2005 1:28 PM EDT |
SFN - Doesn't matter if you call it a linux shortcoming or a radish. Some things work on Windows that don't work on Linux. Some things work on Linux that don't work on Windows. Why that is may interest you, but probably doesn't mean a ton to somebody who really, really wants to use multimedia on one of those sites that barfs. |
| SFN Jul 28, 2005 2:07 PM EDT |
The key sentence wasn't so much the one about this being a Linux shortcoming as it was the sentence after it.Quoting:And how exactly would the makers of a particular distro solve this problem? Let's not even be that specific. How would anybody go about solving this problem? Remember, it's not just how do we make it so that we can view these CNN videos. It's how do we make it so that all users will be able to view anything anytime they want? |
| sbergman27 Jul 28, 2005 2:08 PM EDT |
>Great, so it works for Windows users. Could this be labeled a Linux shortcoming if it was a site that only worked for Mac users? Yes... to current or prospective Mac users. > And how exactly would the makers of a particular distro solve this problem? Even if they did get things just right so that CNN's Windows Media 9 files get read, what happens when CNN changes to files that can only be read by Windows Media 11? Is everybody supposed to scramble to fix their players so that CNN's files can be viewed? You've grasped it. And you know very well it is not just CNN. That's where they've got us. Windows has way more "mindshare" on the desktop. Actually, the phrase "way more" does not cover it. Windows has so much more mindshare on the desktop that we could only dream of having a 10th of it. So much more that the vast majority of desktop users have not even heard of Linux. Get used to it. And yes, distros would have to do a lot of micromanagement of different situations on a regular basis (or emulate IE/ActiveX better) to make it work. It's a hard problem. But it is also a *reality*. |
| SFN Jul 28, 2005 2:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:And you know very well it is not just CNN. I'm being 100% honest with you when I say this. CNN's site is the only one I've been to where I've had this problem. I'll admit, I only tried about 20 sites last night. If you have others you say a Linux computer can't pull up, I'll be happy to try them out and report back here. Certainly the big problem is how to get all media to play flawlessly on every OS for every person but let's remember that the point that started this discussion. Just to refresh everyone's memory, it was: Quoting:Take, for instance, the fact that I still have troubles playing any sort of rich media (usually video) in my Web browser. It doesn't matter whether I use Mozilla Firefox or one of the two native Gnome browsers, Epiphany and Galeon, both of which use Firefox's rendering engine. Much of the time, if a Web page wants to serve me a video, I'm out of luck. I've got one site where this happens. One. |
| sbergman27 Jul 28, 2005 3:03 PM EDT |
That sounds great. So with a little tweaking that any end user could perform, Ubuntu can render streaming video from any site on the web except, of course, for that negligent CNN. I'd like to try this out on their LiveCD. Can you point me at the tweaks that are very clearly detailed in the user forum? If this works it might just be enough to get me to switch desktop distros. Sincerely, Steve |
| SFN Jul 28, 2005 3:12 PM EDT |
I've used two tweaks. One here: [url=http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=33107&highlight=firefox embedded]http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=33107&highlight=fir...[/url] and one here: http://ubuntuguide.org/#mplayer Although I have to say that, judging by the tone of your response, I expect you to come back telling me that these tweaks are too difficult for "any end user" to perform. They're not but that's what I expect. |
| sbergman27 Jul 28, 2005 3:32 PM EDT |
I'll have a look. I suspect that I will likely come to that conclusion. I also suspect that the matter hinges substantially upon just how much experience the end user might have had with computers in general, how much experience they have had with command line shells (I'm guessing here), how much experience they may have had with POSIX OSes, and how much they actually care about running Linux. If it does involve dropping to the command line, that's a big black mark. If I'm wrong... well, then I've just added a powerful new tool to my "Linux For The Masses" arsenal. But please understand that I prefer to defer judgement until after I have performed the procedures and gauged the results. And don't be so sure of my biases. I *want* you to be right. :-) -Steve |
| Tsela Jul 28, 2005 11:02 PM EDT |
sbergman27: I checked SFN's tweaks, and I think they are at the level of any end user. The first one is just to install a Firefox extension! As for the second one, it describes things in terms of command line, but you can do exactly the same thing with synaptic and a file browser in super user mode (I know because I did something similar on my Debian box without touching the command line :) ). A bit more work than just installing a Firefox extension, and you need to touch the keyboard, but nothing difficult, even for an end user. I'll have to install that Firefox extension. It looks great! |
| SFN Jul 29, 2005 4:54 AM EDT |
The extension is especially sweet. It even has a wizard that searches for installed media players known to play certain media types. I should add that you might be able to get away with just that extension. The reason I did both is that the other tweak came out before the extension. I've had others say that just the extension worked for them. As for the command line, I suppose if one wanted two they could describe that as a black mark but nobody has to actually type anything. The instructions are step-by-step, allowing a user to copy and paste. I should add (and should have said before) that none of this is Ubuntu-specific. The command line stuff should work on any Debian-based system, provided you have the right repositories. The Firefox extension should run on any system running Firefox. |
| Tsela Jul 29, 2005 5:57 AM EDT |
SFN: Indeed, the Firefox extension is particularly sweet, because it just asks to have Firefox installed. So it doesn't depend on the specifics of your distribution (it even works on other OSes! - that last one is especially nice, lately my Windows partition has had endless multimedia plug-in problems with all three browsers installed. I hope to solve them by installing it -). Hehe, although I'm still an Opera fan, Firefox is slowly growing in on me :) . I wouldn't have thought it possible :) . |
| SFN Jul 29, 2005 6:08 AM EDT |
Yes, the constant advances of Firefox is truly impressive. Much like (here comes the plug) Ubuntu. I see the two as very similar projects. So often, we see a product released to widespread acclaim only to have the creators sit back and collect the priase. People cheered and bowed at the feet of both Ubuntu on Firefox upon release, proclaiming them both as the best thing since sliced bread but the massive buzz hasn't stopped either projects from moving forward. They just keep plugging along. |
| sbergman27 Jul 29, 2005 8:57 AM EDT |
SFN, can you watch the teaser/titles for "The Tresaurian Intersection"? On my newly installed Ubuntu system, mplayer plugin buffers up 121% of the file and then just stops, playing no video. The other selections play OK, except that Act 2 of "The Savage Empire" crashed the browser. Tried again and it worked. Also, I just randomly looked on yahoo and the first videos I found were on this page: http://music.yahoo.com/musicvideos/genrehub.asp?genreID=7318... Can you play them? The good news is that mplayer-plugin does not lock my browser every time like it did when I used it previously. (If I did not stop the video before it completed, and sometimes even before that, it would consistently lock or crash the browser.) -Steve |
| SFN Jul 29, 2005 9:10 AM EDT |
"mplayer plugin buffers up 121%" Is that a typo or is that really what it says? I haven't tried though I will when I go home for lunch in about an hour. As for the yahoo vids, I've never checked them out even in Wdinows. Do you have a yahoo account? I don't think you can view them without one. Well, not legally. Do a search for yahoo in the users forum. ;-) |
| SFN Jul 29, 2005 11:10 AM EDT |
Quoting:SFN, can you watch the teaser/titles for "The Tresaurian Intersection"? Yes. The fire right up. Quoting:The other selections play OK, except that Act 2 of "The Savage Empire" crashed the browser. Tried again and it worked. No problem there at all. I'm noticing from your other post that you're having a variety of issues with the browser. As you stated, it could be the 64-bit version. Still if RedHat doesn't have that problem, I'd look elsewhere. Quoting:Also, I just randomly looked on yahoo and the first videos I found were on this page: No, but the error message says Quoting:To use this application with Netscape, you must use a 4.7x or 7.1 version. What a bizarre requirement! Wasn't 7.1 released a few years ago? Judging by that, I'd have the same problem with Windows if I was using the lates Netscape browser. I suppose I could alter the browser identification but that's really outside of the realm of something a normal user would do. Again, I'd have to put that down to site error though. Requiring a very old version of a browser is just plain wrong and I don't see how any browser (let alone OS) is going to get around it. |
| sbergman27 Jul 29, 2005 12:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:Yes. The fire right up. I'll try mplayer-plugin on FC4. Quoting:No problem there at all. I'm noticing from your other post that you're having a variety of issues with the browser. As you stated, it could be the 64-bit version. Still if RedHat doesn't have that problem, I'd look elsewhere. The problem is not reproducible. Neither have I seen the XML parsing problem again. Ever notice how when you try out a new OS, weird stuff happens, but then never happens again? It couldn't possibly be user error could it? ;-) As to the Yahoo thing, all I can say is that *yes* I agree that it is a bizarre requirement, and *yes* I agree that the same thing probably happens to users of Netscape 8 and Firefox under Windows. And unfortunately *no* Yahoo does not have to care because most everyone uses IE under Windows. It hasn't hurt them much. Most users of the Internet probably want to use one or the other of those sites. And *yes* we now have both CNN and Yahoo on the list of sites that "Linux doesn't work" on. I just stumbled upon Yahoo on my first try at finding random multimedia on the web. Haven't looked for more. The point is not whose fault it is. The point is it doesn't work. Do I personally care? Not really. I think Yahoo and CNN can take a flying leap off the Golden Gate bridge. Unix has been my primary server OS since 1988, and Linux has been my primary Desktop OS since 1996, and my only desktop OS since 1997. (I microwaved my Windows95 CD. I think that the resulting pyrotechnic display was the most fun that CD ever gave me. ;-) And I advocate and implement Linux desktops in my business wherever I can. I squeeze Linux in even where it would have been easier to just let them keep using Windows. And it's a damned pain that so many things don't work no matter whose fault it is. It's not just multimedia. I deal with plenty of web apps, for which my clients have no alternative source, that only work with IE. And it is still *my* problem. A very few of the webmasters are in a position to care. Most send a polite, uncaring response. Some are just plain rude. But in the end, I have to go back to the customer and find a circuitous way of saying "you can't do it with Linux". |
| SFN Jul 29, 2005 1:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:It's not just multimedia. I deal with plenty of web apps, for which my clients have no alternative source, that only work with IE. And it is still *my* problem. A very few of the webmasters are in a position to care. Most send a polite, uncaring response. Some are just plain rude. I may be able to help you out there. We have a vendor that sold us a web-based app that works beautifully - provided you use IE. I called them and asked what the plans were to support other browsers. They said there were none. So I copied the source off of one of their pages - yep, it was just sitting right there - and ran it through the W3C validator. After finding out what it didn't like and fixing it, I ran the code through again and bingo! It worked. So I forwarded the new code off to them, this time as a irate customer. You know, "YOU PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN BUSINESS OF DESIGNING AND SELLING WEB APPS....." kind of stuff. Suddenly, Mozilla support is slated for the next release. Of course, you'd have to tinker with the code - assuming you can get it - and the customer would have to explode to one of the vendor's higher ups but that should work. Quoting:But in the end, I have to go back to the customer and find a circuitous way of saying "you can't do it with Linux". Yes, I do have to agree with you to some extent. Let's face it, we wouldn't be having this conversation if CNN and Yahoo worked but Starshipexeter didn't. The big problem is, when someone says "you can't do it with Linux" they are saying that Linux doesn't allow you to do it. The blame - and yes, blame does have to come into play here - needs to be passed back to CNN and Yahoo. Not, "Hey how do I do this in Linux?" "You can't." More like, "with all the problems you experience using your computer, you should use Linux. Too bad you're so dependent on CNN and Yahoo. They won't let you." Basically, slap labels on content vendors that clearly identify to the average person what those vendors are - co-conspirators in the effort to take control of your computer. Regardless of the topic, few things cause the average adult to become more irate than being told "you're not allowed to". One clue for the browser crashes. There was an update for Firefox on Ubuntu last week. Immediately after upgrading, Firefox would crash every so often for no reason whatsoever. A few days later, an update was released. Problem solved. Now, was that update issued for X86_64? You might check there. |
| MESMERIC Jul 30, 2005 7:54 AM EDT |
Wow, I wasn't expecting any reply to this thread. Got much to read now |
| MESMERIC Jul 30, 2005 8:39 AM EDT |
Why on earth do you have to fire slow and unstable Cross-Over anyway?
What package do you so much need - that you can't find in Linux? Really curious now. About the article ... The article is irresponsible because it falls down the line of anti-Linux propaganda. PC World is read by 99% of Windows users. ANY person I talk about Linux have already the pre-conceived concept that NOTHING works. I am not kidding. People don't even try a Live-CD, but that is the forming opinion of Linux among the masses. I bought 5 CDs for a client of mine and it all ended up in the bin. So paranoid he was. I am not suggesting the "Linux Advocate" should pretend all is fine. But here we have a FOSS advocate (even though apparently not by his wishing) mauling the Linux Desktop with very weak arguments. If you want a list of real warts - I can give you that. But hardly any of what he mentioned is really a serious problem. He is addressing Multimedia and commercial drivers and yet is using a purely strict GNU/FOSS distribution. Debian abhors anything that is proprietory and commercial. That is *not* a criticism of mine, just a fact. (Fedora Core 4 has been released too recently, drivers, libraries are missing, he should have sticked to FC3) In short, if you want to go pro-Windows proprietory Multimedia choose another distro. Try Mandrake. So to criticize he is having troubles with WMVs is unfair at best. You all can take the apologetic stance stating that sure Linux misses the mark by leaps and bound. You can all say that "it still a little better than Windows SP1 as it appears to be immune from Virus and Spyware" ... And you all can sympathize with his gripes which quite frankly are akin of a newcomer to Linux. I would rather see, even on a pro-Windows magazine a Desktop tip and tricks session, encouraging people to exchange ideas and solve these "gripes" (which seriously are not difficult stuff to solve). They should encourage solutions: Point and Click http://pointandclicklinux.com/ no article on that. The excellent The Complete Linux Handbook 2 http://www.futurenet.co.uk no article of that This is not about self-denial and propaganda. This is just a call for people to realize that such criticism is far from constructive, people are technophobes at best, and many of my friend who wanted to try Linux are seriously scared now - they email me such links. As you put off the Windows user base from migrating. Morale decreases, noone will feel bothered to tackle the nastiest of gripe anyway. Supply and Demand. As one Gnome insider told me: "Developers are way more altruistic then they like others to believe". People are racing trying to find solutions, noone is slacking - article after article all they get is "you are not good enough". There should be encouragement to address these problems, canvass for a solution, exchange techniques, post answers on Wiki - raise the community spirit. Not just give up the Linux Desktop Challenge with apologies. I particularly like the section of "Are the non-coding ways to help?" here: http://www.inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?FAQ The problem of Linux (Desktop specially) is that authors are writing too many "constructive criticism" (coff coff) .. but not listing the massive live resources we have but are not properly advertised. Among many Linux users, the ignorance of their own operating system, plethora of applications and resources is beyond belief. |
| sbergman27 Jul 30, 2005 9:29 AM EDT |
Quoting:Why on earth do you have to fire slow and unstable Cross-Over anyway? What package do you so much need - that you can't find in Linux? IE. Though there are plenty of sites that don't work with IE under Crossover/Linux but do work under IE/Windows. And these are sites my one of my clients needs. Quoting:The article is irresponsible because it falls down the line of anti-Linux propaganda. PC World is read by 99% of Windows users. 99% of windows users read Windows mags? Quoting:ANY person I talk about Linux have already the pre-conceived concept that NOTHING works. Really? Most people I talk to about Linux ask "What's that?". Quoting:I bought 5 CDs for a client of mine and it all ended up in the bin. Not surprising. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Especially if he is not thirsty enough, and thinks you might have an agenda. Quoting:I am not suggesting the "Linux Advocate" should pretend all is fine. No? Quoting:But here we have a FOSS advocate (even though apparently not by his wishing) mauling the Linux Desktop with very weak arguments. It's called user feedback. And it is a valuable resource. Quoting:If you want a list of real warts - I can give you that. So can I. Quoting:But hardly any of what he mentioned is really a serious problem. That depends greatly upon what your needs are, how valuable you time is, whether you see operating systems as tools or political statements, etc. Quoting:He is addressing Multimedia and commercial drivers and yet is using a purely strict GNU/FOSS distribution. Debian abhors anything that is proprietory and commercial. That is *not* a criticism of mine, just a fact. What distro would make all of this work, and solve all these problems? Be specific. Quoting:And you all can sympathize with his gripes which quite frankly are akin of a newcomer to Linux. I've been using Linux for 10 years and I still have these problems. Quoting:I would rather see, even on a pro-Windows magazine a Desktop tip and tricks session, encouraging people to exchange ideas and solve these "gripes" (which seriously are not difficult stuff to solve). That would be nice. Though I fear that going into depth about just what the solutions involve would scare off many... and rightly so. Quoting:This is not about self-denial and propaganda. No? Quoting:This is just a call for people to realize that such criticism is far from constructive, people are technophobes at best, and many of my friend who wanted to try Linux are seriously scared now - they email me such links. Then Linux needs to be made easier for people to use, no matter what it takes, or there will be a ceiling on the number of people who can use it. Quoting:As you put off the Windows user base from migrating. Morale decreases, noone will feel bothered to tackle the nastiest of gripe anyway. Supply and Demand. Most of the Windows user base does not even know about Linux. Quoting:As one Gnome insider told me: "Developers are way more altruistic then they like others to believe". People are racing trying to find solutions, noone is slacking - article after article all they get is "you are not good enough". I would agree. But we are not there yet. Quoting:There should be encouragement to address these problems, canvass for a solution, exchange techniques, post answers on Wiki - raise the community spirit. Not just give up the Linux Desktop Challenge with apologies. More "RTFM"? Sorry, that's unfair. The new credo would be "Please RTFM". It needs to work out of the box. We already have too many FM's. We're drowning in FM's. Quoting:The problem of Linux (Desktop specially) is that authors are writing too many "constructive criticism" (coff coff) .. but not listing the massive live resources we have but are not properly advertised. The problem with the Linux Desktop is that it doesn't work in too many situations, no matter whose fault it is. Quoting:Among many Linux users, the ignorance of their own operating system, plethora of applications and resources is beyond belief. Among many Linux users, the level of elitism and arrogance is beyond belief. And that hurts Linux's opportunities to expand. |
| Abe Jul 30, 2005 11:57 AM EDT |
Mr. SBergman27: Enough with your "the glass is half empty", there are many people who find "the glass is more than half FULL". I have three machines at home that run Suse Linux 9.3 that are used by my family ( my wife and 3 kids) and the glass is FULL here. two of my kids still use Windows some time but it wont be long before they drop it completely. We know FOSS is not perfect, but it is far better than Windows and constantly improving. That is why we use it. It is not that no one is doing anything about the missing features, there are thousands who keep enhancing FOSS every day. So what is your problem? Yes we know we can't see videos on CNN, but we can't do anything about it except sending them our feedback. I myself did just that and told them they lost customers and I pointed them to this thread to read it. There is no reason for them and many other site, not to support FOSS. If you don't think FOSS is good enough, stick with Windows. That goes to everyone else who things the same. If they don't use FOSS today, they will tomorrow. Plain and simple. |
| sbergman27 Jul 30, 2005 1:00 PM EDT |
Abe, Please forgive my recent predilection for playing Devil's advocate. I'm actually quite optimistic about FOSS and Linux on the desktop in the long term. (Keep in mind that FOSS and Linux are not synonymous. There are far more users of Firefox under Windows than the total number of Linux users.) My complaint is with the idea that we've already won the war. We've barely made a dent yet. You are correct that there is not much that we can do but send feedback and try to come up with creative solutions. (I sent mine to CNN a while back. Never got a response.) I don't know about you, but feedback has rarely gotten me anyplace. Sometimes it does, though. And I do not want to minimize the importance of sending feedback. It is extremely important, even if it does not get any immediate, tangible results. I would be interested in any response you might receive. From my previous post in this thread: Quoting:Unix has been my primary server OS since 1988, and Linux has been my primary Desktop OS since 1996, and my only desktop OS since 1997. (I microwaved my Windows95 CD. I think that the resulting pyrotechnic display was the most fun that CD ever gave me. ;-) Please don't tell me to "stick with Windows" like I'm some pathetic dual-booter. (That was an attempt at humor, BTW.) ;-) They can pry my Fedora from my cold dead hands. But overconfidence is our enemy. That is the point that I am making. I apologize to anyone I might have offended in beating people over the head with that^W^W^W^W^W^W^W making that point. If overconfidence is our enemy, community is still our greatest asset. Sincerely, Steve Bergman |
| Abe Jul 30, 2005 5:12 PM EDT |
Steve, I know you mean well and you want the best for FOSS, I too some times play devil's advocate because it brings the best out of people. But sometimes they could become your enemies if they take it personally and don't see your good intensions. This week was really full of too much of self critisim. On one side, everyone is telling everyone else to stop the name calling as if it was a wide spread problem. Some journalist want it to be so or at least make everyone believe it is. On the other hand, we are criticizing a distro here and distro there. Well, not all distros are perfect or equal. Some are better than others, but they all have issues just like Windows does even though it has been around for 20 some years. Some of these distros are only a year or two old. No body expects them to be issues free. But I know one thing, they all work with some tweaking here and there and will be much better in a year or two. This evolutionary process is what makes FOSS the best. I have been using Suse for a while. I consider it to be a mature disto, in my opinion the best over all, but it still has issues and yet it is more productive than Windows. Yes, a little some of self criticism is good and constructive, but we need to give ourselves a break here. We have a whole lot of journalist who are publishing nothing but criticism about FOSS and a lot of it is either made up or flat out lies. We need to have some camaraderie ourselves to stand up for that and be optimistic so we don't forget our goals. There are lot of good news and we need to enjoy it a little. We are not made of steel, which even steel will weaken with constant hammering, give it a break, it will forge properly and better. So will FOSS. |
| MESMERIC Jul 30, 2005 11:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:IE. Though there are plenty of sites that don't work with IE under Crossover/Linux but do work under IE/Windows. And these are sites my one of my clients needs. Exactly. Filters and transitions won't work neither will VML. The client area is too huge, it's difficult to test for exact settings 800x600. Took me a while to realize the best test is Windows on a laptop. Not Wine, Vmware or Win4Lin. If you are nitpicking bugs many could escape unless you test IE in its real environment. Ironically Microsoft allowed me to re-activate my Windows XP very very recently which is the reason I've migrated to Linux 3 years ago. (To cut the story short, I've reinstalled the OS over 7 times and lost the rights to activation) With XP SP2, it *seems* the laptop is more protected, but still get the odd things like internet connection dropping without a reason requiring reboot. I am a webdeveloper and need to test all apps in IE/Firefox/Opera/Lynx/KHTML etc .. Quoting: 99% of windows users read Windows mags? Definitely. If 92% of people visiting one of my websites are Windows users, despite me advertising in Linux/Mac channels. Then naturally the reader-base of Windows mag will verge to 100% .. Sure there will be people running more than one OS, sysadmins etc. Quoting:Really? Most people I talk to about Linux ask "What's that?".I should have re-phrased it; most people I talk to that have "heard" about Linux. Quoting:Not surprising. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Especially if he is not thirsty enough, and thinks you might have an agenda.He asked me for the CDs in the first place, and shown initial interest but then freaked out. Probably read or heard about some F.U.D article. Quoting:It's called user feedback. And it is a valuable resource. He is not writing the article as an user, he is writing as an FOSS "expert" - read the beggining. Quoting:If you want a list of real warts - I can give you that. So can I.OK you first .... my list is small Quoting:But hardly any of what he mentioned is really a serious problem. That depends greatly upon what your needs are, how valuable you time is, whether you see operating systems as tools or political statements, etc. Had he chosen a distro more geared towards multimedia he would never have had those problems. Mandrake, Mepis, Suse, etc Quoting: He is addressing Multimedia and commercial drivers and yet is using a purely strict GNU/FOSS distribution. Debian abhors anything that is proprietory and commercial. That is *not* a criticism of mine, just a fact. Mandrake. Suse. Mempis. I would love to say Yoper but it needs more work (please help). The idea of this distro is that everything should work out of the box; everything would be multimedia ready: Java, codecs, plugins, drivers, etc Quoting: I've been using Linux for 10 years and I still have these problems. I can understand where you are coming from. This guy a Linux enthusiast is coming here tonight for me to spruce up his Mandrake on his laptop, even further. He is a business man, he is not the nerdy type, he is not inclined to spend weeks on end researching the infinite possibilities you get with Linux. I don't blame him, he has a life! But I like his attitude, instead of getting "this Linux is foul such and such doesn't work. Windows is much better" (which is what I got from one user), he asks me "is it possible for me to use the internal modem also? That would be neat". Which encourages me harder to find a solution (and so I did). Can you see the difference? We could argue that the first users is giving invaluable feedback and "constructive" criticism also. The reviewer of the article is no different. And his reader base are not Linux users. He is *not* helping, he is just another (unaware) pawn reinforcing the "Windows is easy. Linux is mystery!" motto. Quoting: That would be nice. Though I fear that going into depth about just what the solutions involve would scare off many... and rightly so.Not all solutions are scary or need to be terminal based. There are so many things you can do with Linux (easily) but they are just not being publicized enough Quoting:Then Linux needs to be made easier for people to use, no matter what it takes, or there will be a ceiling on the number of people who can use it. Every educator knows that the effort is 50/50. Should we completely dumb down (possibly jeopardizing security / stability) the system to please the user? How far do we go? Yes I agree that many things can be simplified and understand that many people are battling with that. What they need is more encouragement and backing. Otherwise it's a thankless job. Why is it people don't mind helping and teaching Windows stuff. But what is wrong about teaching Linux fundamentals? Why is that taboo now? Why is that un-PC among the Linux Desktop advocates? I still see lots of DOS instructions on how to get things working with Windows. Noone gripes then. Quoting:Most of the Windows user base does not even know about Linux. That situation is changing rapidly. More and more Windows users are becoming aware of the term "Linux" (thanks to Microsoft Get the Facts campaign) Curiosity makes people search the web. First impressions count. There are too many articles portraying Linux in a bad light. First suggestions count. Would you eat a chocolate if there was a sensationalistic article "Does Choccy-Wokky really give cancer?" Even if the article shows that no, it doesn't. The masses are easily impressionable and would cease buying. Quoting: More "RTFM"? Sorry, that's unfair. The new credo would be "Please RTFM". It needs to work out of the box. We already have too many FM's. We're drowning in FM's. You don't get me. I am not talking about Manuals. I am talking about Audio-Visuals. Are there too many of them now? The tools are there, for free: http://www.debugmode.com/wink/ Again so you are suggesting Windows can get away with tutorials and presentation. But Linux shouldn't? Quoting:The problem with the Linux Desktop is that it doesn't work in too many situations, no matter whose fault it is.Please Enlist your every single situation. Do that. Let's see how hard or easy they are to fix. I am no believer this distro is better then the next. But some distros are more geared towards a specific situation. It is quite likely you are using the right distro for you. Quoting:Among many Linux users, the ignorance of their own operating system, plethora of applications and resources is beyond belief. Among many Linux users, the level of elitism and arrogance is beyond belief. And that hurts Linux's opportunities to expand.Elitists are not bothered about genuinely helping out. Arrogance is to be spoon-fed while criticizing in the wrong light. Brand me arrogant and elistist if you must. But I will continuously shout "Foul" if I see people advocating something that hampers Linux's growth. Is the FUD too subtle this time for most to recognize? |
| sbergman27 Jul 31, 2005 6:13 AM EDT |
I fear that this thread may be wearing out its welcome in the main forum. Perhaps we should continue via private messaging? Dave, do you think it would be beneficial to have some way to create private group threads so that 3 or more people can rant at each other to their heart's content without inconveniencing the rest of the LX members, or giving a bad impression to new members? It would sometimes be nice to be able to opaque the "open-source fish bowl" a bit. Just a thought. -Steve Bergman |
| MESMERIC Jul 31, 2005 7:31 AM EDT |
Steve This is a discussion forum. No thread is going to carry on indefinitely - one of the parties will soon give up with "this is futile" - "she/he just doesn't get it .. move on" But because your replies contained questions - passionate as I may seem about the Linux Desktop I thought of answering them. This is no Slashdot with flaming sessions carrying my distro is holier than thou themes - or worse a volley of personal insults. I pointed out why I think such articles are negative to Linux.Until I realize I was grossly mistaken in my judgement I can't change my POV. I believe discussions here, not on pro-Windows or multi-OSS boards are more productive. I reserve the possibility that I could be wrong on that matter - I can't be right all the time now can I ? :) To finish off here is my list of gripes: It is not really intended towards Linux Desktop as a whole, since I stick with a distro I maintain and contribute to - and needs much extra help. So these are not necessarily universal: * Sound is not resilient. Say something crashes like you play a corrupted file. Then you are stuck with no sound. You manually have to delete /tmp/mcop-* , kill the artsd process, maybe run alsaconf again. In some random sequence until you get sound back. I do not know if other distros experience the same. Sound has improved but could be made even more robust. I don't think if sound crashes on Window you remain soundless. * I really really wish, there was an easy-peasy effort to learn Linux programming. The resources in Microsoft are truly colourful with practical digestible examples not just theory http://msdn.microsoft.com. And for other technologies you get nice audio-visual tutorial check http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ which helped me learn C# in a matter of days (prior to knowing Linux). Learning Linux programming is hard, because like many ex-Windows migrants; I've been baby-spoon fed, man pages are still difficult to digest. My main interest is using Eclipse constructively. QT, GTK programming would be very nice too. * I bought a Dana AlphaSmart and found to my horror the Palm-OS doesn't synchronize on any Linux Distro. http://www.alphasmart.com/ Eventually I've used Vmware (Win4Lin/Wine) doesn't work. Similarly I feel pretty embarrased I couldn't make my sisters Tungsten Palmtop synchronize on Fedora Core 3. I will give it a go some other time. * I really wished there was more utterly easy websites for newcomers. Also wished more women took part in Linux and not being so down-right averse to it. http://women.kde.org and http://www.linuxchick.org are a good start. If only they could get altogether and build a distro themselve that would be a massive encouragement for other ladies to join in. * Some applications are ported badly to Linux or seems simply abandoned. So I can't blame the OS but the developers. Skype doesn't work properly can't wait for http://www.gizmoproject.com/ to come out. Yahoo Messenger lacks features (though some OSS people are working on webcam now). Sending files via Gaim/aMSN is still mystery (is there a solution? I haven't searched yet). I recently purchased Tribes 2 for Linux but can't connect to any server to play. Can't find the info in the net. * Ok that is all. Everything else is pretty peachy at the moment. |
| sbergman27 Jul 31, 2005 8:17 AM EDT |
Quoting:This is a discussion forum. No thread is going to carry on indefinitely - one of the parties will soon give up with "this is futile" - "she/he just doesn't get it .. move on" Yeah. LXer members tend to do a good job of self-policing. No thread goes on forever. Some of them just *seem* to. :-) I've pretty well said what I had to say, right or wrong. I've intentionally been a bit over-harsh; A reaction to perceived complacency. Linux has come a long way. And the community should be proud of those accomplishments. Linux has been quite "good enough" for me for a long time. And I truly cannot imagine moving to Windows. There is so much that I would have to give up. (OK, I absolutely hate Windows and when I have to use it, which is not often, I always wash my hands afterwards. ;-) BTW, who is still selling Tribes 2? |
| MESMERIC Jul 31, 2005 8:48 AM EDT |
http://www.tuxgames.com
Every year the manage to grab a few keys from Vivendi or Sierra.
They create the CDs which then get quickly sold out until the next long-awaited batch. There is no support for the game, and I can't get into the servers. You can play with bots though. http://www.legendsthegame.net/ is a better free bet. Everything works but people don't join in as much - which is a shame. A very good game based on Tribes 2. |
| SFN Jul 31, 2005 8:54 AM EDT |
I'd kind of wondered if the discussion wasn't going a bit long in the tooth myself. We do seem to have come around from different ends to meet the middle. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way to get beyond that. The problem - regardless of how one feels it should be solved - does seem to stem from the definition of the average person's concept of "works". Having said that, the idea of private threads sounds good. Perhaps even better would be a way to take a thread that has been public and make it private. Not that I have the first clue as to how that would be done. Quoting:BTW, who is still selling Tribes 2? Amazon has it. |
| Abe Jul 31, 2005 11:29 AM EDT |
although private threads sounds good and serves a purpose, in the spirit of FOSS, I consider it to be contridictory. Being open is beneficial to everyone to learn and get enlightened. It also encourages discussions and spreads good exchange of ieads. If we still feel to have private discussions, e-mail is a good way to do that. Steve brought out a good point when he said "LXer members tend to do a good job of self-policing". A year ago, I always connected to LinuxToday and ZDnet for Linux news and talkbacks, but after the MS ads fiasco, many decided to move to a different site and they said so on LinuxToday. I did the same and I want to thank the person who suggested LXer at the time. When started reading LXer, I noticed that there weren't enough discussion at the time. One of the first posts I made a note of that, I also mentioned that it would be nice if LXer could have some ads to help in supporting it. Today, it has many more links to good articles and has many healthy discussions. I hope this continues and still think it needs more ads. I think LXer has potential and could expand by adding a section to become a support site for FOSS where people could contribute their actual FOSS experiences. It is something to think about and may be put out for discussion. One thing I was thinking about is to create video clips for newbies on how to do installs/updates and to resolve issues/problems. I know there is a lot on the intranet, but most of it needs a lot of improvement in all areas and not maintained or kept current. |
| scrawler Jul 31, 2005 12:32 PM EDT |
I'm kind of late to the party, but both the sites linked waaaay up the page played for me with just a couple of clickety clicks. Thanks for the star trek site, too, btw. I'm off to watch more... |
| SFN Jul 31, 2005 6:45 PM EDT |
"although private threads sounds good and serves a purpose, in the spirit of FOSS, I consider it to be contridictory." I do agree with that. I'm just wondering how long before someone screams "WOULD YOU GUYS SHUT UP ABOUT THIS, ALREADY?!" I have to say that, although at times it looked as though both sbergman and I would take this thread down a less than civilized road, the thread seems to have maintained a very civil tone and that everyone seems to realize that we are all working towards the same goal. |
| Abe Jul 31, 2005 7:02 PM EDT |
OK OK OK. This is my last post on this thread, I promise. I don't usually spend that much time surfing, but this week I was on vacation staying at home. it has been my pleasure and until next weekend, you guys have a good week ahead and be safe. |
| MESMERIC Aug 01, 2005 10:25 PM EDT |
SFN - Amazon does not sell Tribes 2 for Linux. Getting hold of Tribes 2 for Linux is pretty hard akin to finding a working ZX Spectrum +2 (Hard to find even in foreign countries or eBay) {not that I've ever searched for such memorabilia, but am just guessing} |
| SFN Aug 02, 2005 5:06 AM EDT |
Quoting:Amazon does not sell Tribes 2 for Linux My bad, I guess. I thought he wanted to know who was still selling Tribes 2. |
| MESMERIC Aug 02, 2005 4:50 PM EDT |
Seriously wished I could list my Microsoft Windows XP + products gripes.
It would probably occupy several pages. I've come from the MS developer world. And shamefully admit I do not know "Linux" languages. I am now stuck with an extremely complex page. I tried ASP (which I find better/faster than ASP.NET) but it soon spiralled into spaghetti code. Object handling (Classes) is very limited. So I've opened my worse IDE ever - Visual Studio.NET (clunky and slow, even more so under Vmware). C# is an ugly language. But then I heard only that Java is no better. C# is very easy to learn though. Is that why people are pressing with Mono? It is just not very pretty (I like pretty code but I guess Eiffel is out of the question) It didn't take long for the .NET environment to behave erratically. I tried to edit a file and save it - but got the message "Operation not possible" (seriously!) .. somehow a file got stuck on a process, and that was that - reboot was the only solution. My Windows XP on the laptop (I keep to test pages, Gentoo is on the other partition, honest!) XP keeps losing the connection (unless I reboot). One solution is to have an application that constantly ping the outside world - ie SQL Server Client seems to do that. Even though Enterprise Manager is one dead slow app. This is just the beggining, I won't carry on. /rant over Meanwhile this "billing page" I am coding is taking me ages to finish :( |
| SFN Aug 12, 2005 8:09 PM EDT |
Here's an update on this situation. I just did a fresh Ubuntu install on a notebook and while setting up the multimedia stuff, I noticed the instructions seemed a bit different. So I thought I'd try this out again. The CNN videos now play perfectly. |
| number6x Aug 13, 2005 7:28 AM EDT |
SFN: Really? I'd like to know how they are identifying their media player. Hmmm.... |
| SFN Aug 14, 2005 1:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'd like to know how they are identifying their media player. I couldn't say for sure but the first time I connected, it said that the media player couldn't be identified and spat out one of those "Optimized for Windows Media Player 9" warning but offered a "Continue to Video" button. When I clicked that, the video started streaming within five seconds. All subsequent connections play the video immediately without the warning. I had to set up another computer this morning so I tried it again tweaking it slowly and trying to play the videos after each tweak to see if I could identify which tweak made it happen. It appears that it's a combination of two tweaks. They are listed at: http://ubuntuguide.org/#codecs and http://ubuntuguide.org/#mplayer I'm still setting this computer up but when I'm all done, I'm going to start going to every site I can find with video. I'll be happy to post the results here, if anyone is still interested. |
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