WinXP refund in The NL - need info!
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| fborges Mar 29, 2006 5:01 AM EDT |
Hello! I'm new here. I just bought a Dell laptop (in The Netherlands) and I'll at least /try/ to return the WinXP that comes with it and get some money back. Dell does say I can return "software that was sold integrated to the hardware" [1], but they don't say nothing about the procedure (to return software). And I'm afraid they mean: return the software with the hardware. [1]:check the very last paragraph on their policy page (it's in Dutch BTW) http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/topic.aspx/emea/top... I came across this story http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/49036/index.html from Hans Kwint. Some questions: 1. Are there are any news relating to it? Anything regarding Dell specifically? Dell somewhere in Europe? In The Netherlands? 2. Hans Kwint are you reading this?? Can you give some feeback? 3. Does anyone here knows of a successfully pursued case like this against Dell (in Europe? In The Netherlands?)? I haven't got the laptop yet, but return time is 7 days after delivery. So I'm in a hurry ;-) Any help is heartily appreciated, Francisco |
| tadelste Mar 29, 2006 6:27 AM EDT |
Francisco: Dell and other OEM's face an inquiry into this matter related to Anti-trust. You may also see retailers included such as CompUSA, Fry's, Best Buy and others. I sent you an internal email regarding this. |
| hkwint Apr 07, 2006 6:21 AM EDT |
Too late probably, but anyway, I'm reading. Indeed, I sent letters to 11 OEMs, most in december. Some replied, most didn't. Dell didn't send any response at all apart from giving me a call (which is mentioned in the article I believe), even not in 4 months time. Not much happened since that 4 months, only some arguments between Adam of Windowsrefund.info and the editors at LXer, after which we, kinda, broke up. So, at the moment, I'm preparing a complaint at the NMa (Dutch Competition Authority), but it will take me some time, because I'm rather busy in my private life at this moment. Of course, always ask for the names of the people you are talking to, write the down on paper, and if people don't understand what you are talking about (most of the people at Dell won't), simply ask for their bosses. If that doesn't work, mention NMa, and see if that gets you any further. Since the NMa can be a real pain in the ass and really destroy companies and even peoples lives, it could help. It's a good idea to make a photograph of the license-screen, and it's important you didn't agree to the license. Then, you should call Dell in two weeks after the purchase, I believe. Take your phone, and don't be suprised if you end up talking to someone in India (this happened with Dell before, please read on). Anyway, it's always good to call the NMa and report it Dell won't let you return your software. Citizens are able to file a complaint, please read this [url=http://www.nmanet.nl/Images/NMa_Klachten,tips en signalen_tcm16-81130.pdf]http://www.nmanet.nl/Images/NMa_Klachten,tips en signalen_tc...[/url] brochure. I scanned the NMa rules, and to file a complaint, it is far better if you are a 'belanghebbende'; have an interest in the case you are complaining about. I, for example, am not buying a laptop, so I have no direct interest in it. It would be better if I had a 'vereniging' (society), with mentioned in its statutes, it is established to stop tied sales (koppelverkoop) of hard- and software. Furthermore, you might look at the refund howto at http://windowsrefund.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&f... The most interesting part for you will be the Succes stories over there, with examples of people who got their money back from Dell, about 100 dollars or so: http://windowsrefund.info/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewf... When talking to Dell people, mention other people finally DID get their refund. You could use this succes stories as a kind of 'proof'. Please, keep us informed in this thread. I really like to know if you succeed in getting it. If you don't succeed, I can use your story as an example in my complaint to the NMa. Of course, I will write an article on LXer when the complaint is ready, but be patient please. Let me know if the links don't work, or if you have any questions left, or you had your money back. You can reply to this thread, or mail at hkwint :at: LXER _dot_ com. BTW you are right about returning your whole laptop: Some OEMs offer software-only-refund, but you have to pay more money for 'transactional costs' than the refund itself is, others let you return both soft _and_ hardware. The XP EULA is vague about this, and I think on purpose. Probably, because finally Microsoft ends up paying the refund (at least this is true for Acer as far as I know). Some companies have a return policy, but of Dell, I'm almost certain they don't have any policy at all. Please read the succes stories to see what I mean: someone in India deals with it, and if you bother those people enough, they will finally end up paying you. It might me a good idea to record all your phonecalls (and I would be really interested to hear those!), but don't forget to make the people you are calling aware of the recordings. Don't try sending them mail, they don't respond, and mail can simply be ignored, even registered ('aangetekend') mail. The telephone is the best way to annoy them. Wish you luck with getting your money back! |
| fborges Apr 08, 2006 8:01 AM EDT |
Hello Hans, Nice to hear from you! It's not yet too late. There are 3 issues at hand (sorry if there is too much detail here...) ----------------------------------- 1. WHAT exactly I would "return"? In principle I would like to return ALL the software sold along with the machine, that requires WinXP to run. In the "proof of purchease"? (orderbevesting), I have the following items listed: * DVD Cyberlink Decoder Software (No Media) * Record Now and My DVD Software (No Media) * Dutch - Genuine Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 * PC Restore recovery system by Symantec * Dutch - Microsoft Works 7.0 * English - Adobe Reader 6.0 There is also a McAfee trial something and these two (which I think weer also listed as "trial" in the webpage), though they are not listed as such in the Orderbevesting: * Dutch - Corel Photo Album6 Standard Edition * Dutch - Corel Paint Shop ProX Standard Edition Now, what exactly I *could* be *sending* back?? Dell does not ship any WinXP recovery/reinstall CDs anymore (as they expect me to use that Symantec recovery program). So the only things I would have to "physically" return would be: a. piece of paper telling me how to inform myself about a "systeemherstel" CD; b. a MS Works CD; c. the "Windows XP OEM" seal that came at the bottom of the laptop. ---------------------------------------------- 2. There are no explicit instructions on how to ship OEM software back on Dell's website, and on my first attempt through phone I got nothing. It would be nice to record such conversations, but I lack hardware for that. According to Dell.NL consumer agreements: a. I have the right to return OEM software; b. within 7 working days after receiving the order (same period for hardware); c. no clear language about if it is hardware+software or just software. I'm afraid helpdesk people will know about this "7 days" thing, so they might simply try to deny me information and later start saying that "NOW you can't return anything". ---------------------------------------- 3. So my problem is discovering: a) how to return the software b) within this 7 working days period. ========================================== I want to try, and if I fail, I'll file a complaint at the NMa. I have interest (belangstelling) on the matter ;-). Some other notes: I won't be talking to nobody in India, since Dell costumer support has to talk in Dutch with me ;-) I can't take pictures from the EULA screen, as I have removed Windows already. Honestly, I can see how it helps to refuse WinXP's EULA; but really, do I really have to *refuse* Windows EULA in order to be able to buy a laptop without it? Again I can see how it helps, but... I want a laptop but not windows, and I *can't* buy one, from any major brand, without the other. OK, perhaps the best argument about the EULA is that it denies me the right to return it (to MS) for a refund. Best regards, Francisco |
| hkwint Apr 09, 2006 1:35 PM EDT |
Ok, wait a bit, I'll try to put some interesting stuff online... |
| hkwint Apr 09, 2006 2:14 PM EDT |
Thanks for your reply. Details are actually good by the way! In the best case, what normal happens (probably) is this: 1) You make clear to Dell, you don't want all that software, 2) You can 'prove' you didn't agree to any software agreement, and in particular, to the Windows EULA. If you did, you can't return Windows anymore! _Never_ agree! 3) You send your laptop back to Dell (you pay!), to some "Technician". The "Technician" makes sure the harddrive is in the exact same state, as when it left Dell (here's the trouble for you. Bit by bit copying another unused Dell harddrive may work). Then, the "Technician" formats the harddrive, takes all your CDROMS (if you have any, in your case the MSWORKS CDROM), and scratches of your Windows XP seal. 4) Since they (MS+Dell) don't want you to make any profit out of this deal, you have to pay for the 'hard, difficult work' of the "Technician". You have to pay to make Dell return the laptop to you. You already had to pay to send the laptop to Dell. Surprisingly, you always end up paying something like $/E20 more for the "transactional costs" than your refund is. In the second best scenario, you can return your whole laptop with hard and software, and get back your money. In the normal case, the people at Dell don't understand you, and you get their boss, who gives another boss, who doesn't know and tell you the laptops are manufactured in India, so he puts you through to Dell's department in India (hoping you give up), the guy in India has to consult some other guys, which makes the phone-company rich by the way, and finally, if you irritate them enough, you get your money back. And here's why it works this way: Different OEMs end up paying different amounts of money for Windows OEM as far as I am aware. The rest here are only assumptions: The more desktops the OEM sells without Windows, the more MS charges for Windows OEM. The less Windows they sell, the more trouble they will have, getting their hardware drivers signed by MS Windows. The more desktops the OEM sells with Linux, the more MS charges for Windows OEM. And hardware without Windows doesn't sell that good at the moment. To cover the tracks of all this, the following statement is in the Microsoft OEM System Builder License (English version): 16.1 You may not advertise, PROVIDE A SEPARATE PRICE FOR, or otherwise distribute separate software licenses... So, if the OEM's tell you how much you (the customer) actually pay for Windows, they violate the EULA (and MS will be angry). Of course, the NMa won't like this particular MS OEM SysBuilder license, since it is a hindrance to competitors. So, I will include this complaint in my complaint to the NMa. As Tuxchick once wrote in her great intro to my story on Digg.com (something along these lines:) "Whenever you ask the OEMs about the return policy of MS Windows, they are having an attack of shyness... Indeed, the return policies are very, very unclear. The OEM's and MS want it this way. If it's not clear, it can be bend to their liking. And, as you will understand, they (especially MS) don't give a (put a profane word here) about consumers, only about their own wallets. So, I suggest you 1) Try to get back your money, 2) Complain at the NMa 3) Spread the word! Tell other people what happened. (This is very important) 4) Keep us informed in this thread. When I find some time, I will continue my complaint this week. If I found the replies of the OEMs to my questions (the ones I have, nothing from Dell), I'll try to put them online. At the moment, they are lost since I moved. |
| fborges Apr 10, 2006 6:43 AM EDT |
Hello, OK. So this is what I got from Dell: 1. First this lady tell me that "no way, you bought it, you got it." she actually tells me that I knew about windows in the computer and that I should not complain, and that I simply could *not* return it. Forget it. 2. THEN I mention the General Agreement en Policies of Dell ("Algemene Voorwaarden en Policies"), she goes to the page to read it with me. At some point we reach the point that the contract says that I *indeed* may return OEM software. The lady got silent, and said she was going to talk to her manager. She comes back and says that: 1. I could indeed send it back; for which I would get euro40.32, 2. but I would have to pay the sending costs to Dell for sending general items ("Onderdelen") back which is 47.60 euro. On this deal, I would only send them: a) windows seal; b) MS Works CD. and I would lose euro7. I mentioned that there were lot's of other software licenses that I also had paid for (see my previous post) and that I would like to ask the price I had paid for them as well, since they all required Windows and I couldn't possibly use windows. She got impatient. Mentioned again, why the heck I wanted to do this... Why had I bought the laptop if I knew that it would came with WinXP. I mentioned that Dell would not sell me a laptop without XP. Again I insist on the price for the other software, she then says that the cost for those were: nothing. I had paid nothing for Adobe Acrobat, or MS Works and all the others. She might actually have a point in saying that I paid nothing for some of those, since they might not be sold to Dell on a per-license deal, such as windows surely is. But the MS Works CD has holograms and a individual tracking number. Resuming: They are really sticking to the euro47 return price for receiving 1 CD rom and one sticker, (note that a toner costs euro12 to send back). [...] This gets tricky, and I speak dutch as a second language, Hans if you have the time (and the inclination) to take a look at the Dell Algemene Voorwaarden... Anyway: 1. Dell says they charge these prices based on general transportation costs. The general cost of a CD + sticker is *NOT* euro 47! 2. I tried to point that I could send this myself to them, but she said that they still need to send it back to Ireland; and that was very expensive.... The point here is: a) AFAICT I have the right to send it back myself (it's in Ophaal Details); b) but Dell indeed reserves itself the right to charge costs to transport to "Asset Recovery Department": (dutch) Dell is gerechtigd de transportkosten tot onze Asset Recovery Afdeling en redelijke aanvullende administratiekosten in rekening te brengen. [...] final conclusion is: 1. Dell is making use of price tables made (and only justifiable) for other items to charge me a mad price about sending it back. 2. they are lying when they say I didn't pay anything for MS Works. 3. though they are actually easy about taking only this one MS Works CD and the sticker. [...] This woman got angry and the phone call took more than 30min. I'll try to call back, insist on a price for MS Works; mention a complaint to NMa, mention that the return costs are unreasonable and that the NMa will be able to see this. If they don't change the offer, and insist I paid nothing for MS Works. I'll tell them I want to return the sticker only (since they say MS Works costs nothing I'll say I'll just keep it); return the stupid thing (leaving a marvelous paper trail) and post a complaint to the NMa. The problem is that I would have to do it, tomorrow or something and I really don't have that much time.... Any notes or suggestions?? |
| Teron Apr 10, 2006 8:12 AM EDT |
IIRC, accepting any offer negates any right you have concerning complaints, so don't do that unless you can squeeze a sane deal out of them. |
| hkwint Apr 10, 2006 1:58 PM EDT |
Just hold on. Keep trying. Ask for her boss. Point her to other succes stories to which I linked in a previous thread.
It's ok she got mad/angry, hopefully she will tell her boss about it. BTW if the MS Works CD is really free, would you be so kind to order 100 'free' pieces of them for me? Because, if they are really free, Dell can give them away for free, can't they? Oh no, I forgot: They give them away for free, but they charge E47 transportation cost... Anyway, to make them more angry, ask for some free CDROMs, and you will have a good laugh. If I have some time tomorrow, I will try to tranlate the "Software Voorwaarden" to English, as literary as possible. |
| fborges Apr 11, 2006 7:48 AM EDT |
I haven't had the time to call Dell today, tomorrow hopefully. Kwint could you test those windowsrefund.info links? They never worked for me. Cheers, |
| hkwint Apr 11, 2006 12:55 PM EDT |
Hope this one does work for you: http://windowsrefund.info/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewf... |
| fborges Apr 13, 2006 1:58 AM EDT |
Hello everybody, I just called Dell. Some notes and the results: I made a point of being extremely polite and actually sorry (for bringing such an annoying case up) with this other lady. I think that helps. If not only to make the other person be very polite back at me and thus keep the "annoyance toll" on calling Dell much more berable. The call: First she says it's not possible. I mention the Dell's own rules and that I had the right to return it. She asks for time to take a look into it. After which she says that what I would pay to return it, would cost me exactly the same price I would have to pay to send it back. I mention that 1. all I have to return is a "sticker" 2. i wanted money for MS Works as well. About 1: She says the price is that one and there is nothing she can or will do about it. Price for software return 37.20 transportation costs 10.00 administration costs TOTAL: 47.20 euros About 2: She insists that "in your laptop configuration" (inspiron 6400), there were indeed no costs related to MS Works. Though I would love to believe her, that's bullshit. I have a freacking Hologram stamped CD with MS Works in it WITH a unique "tracking ID". There is a price, they just don't list it in the configuration. ============== Finally I argued that 37euros sending costs was not acceptable. She says: 1. That is the price Dell charges, be it software box or OEM sticker. 2. it's in the Consumer Agreement that they would charge. I say: it's in the Consumer Agreement, that they charge "fair" prices, they say NOTHING there about returning costs of OEM software. Paper or Toner cartridges cost 2+10euros. That's what I wanted to pay. She says: Rules are rules. Returning that sticker will cost you 37+10. I say that if that's the deal I'll file a complaint to the NMa (Nederlandse Mededingingsautoriteit). She seems to be fine with that. I guess there are two points here: 1.the Costumer Care phone girl will not handle any NMa related problem, i.e. it will not trouble *her*; it might trouble *Dell*, but not *her*. 2. I speak Dutch as a second language and anyone can hear that if I try to "argue", I guess people will *not* particularly fear my capacity to properly write a complaint to the NMa. I ask for the manager. She says she will try. Guess what: manager was not there, she asks my phone number and tells the manager will give me a ring. Let's see it that happens.... |
| hkwint Apr 13, 2006 3:21 AM EDT |
Quoting:2. I speak Dutch as a second language and anyone can hear that if I try to "argue", I guess people will *not* particularly fear my capacity to properly write a complaint to the NMa. That's ok, I will try to help. Ask for "Dimitri Haddeman" maybe, I mailed with him before about this issue, and he was the one promising me Dell would answer my questions. I just send him a reminder (three minutes ago) of my questions six months ago (!), told him I didn't receive any answere, told him I was preparing a complaint for the NMa, and told him this was his last chance. Mention I will use your example in the complaint. PS the Dutch letter with the questions to the OEMs, amongst which Dell, is still here: http://hkwint.50webs.com/refund_MS.html (Be patient, that site is a bit slow) Good luck! |
| fborges Apr 13, 2006 9:22 AM EDT |
So the Costumer Support Manager(tm) called me back. This conversation wasn't as "nice" as the other one. The problem being she was way less honest than the other lady earlier. [...] She says that returning the software costs the full price of returning components ("onderdelen"). 37+10 euros. I kept saying that that was not a fair price and pointed out that Dell claims that they charge "fair" prices for returning items. She says it's the price for software returns and that it was in the Agreement. LIE: the agreement does not mention OEM software as "onderdelen". I then pointed out to her that that price was for transport costs of boxes of things like HD, DVD drives and the such. And that actually I had nothing whatsoever to "physically" return. I point that the Agreement does say that 37euro are for transportation costs and that nothing would be transported (if anything the windows seal, but she seemed not to care about it). She asks me if what I was after was getting windows for free. I swore that I only used Linux and really did not want XP. I point again, there is nothing to be send back so you can't charge me "transportation costs". She then reckoned I had a point. She (the Costumer Care Manager) goes to talk to *her* manager. I thought I had a chance. THEN she comes back and says: return XP ok, but we must have your laptop back and that costs euro150. I pointed out the fact that: 1. Dell's license gives me the right to return such items; 2. Dell has no written policy whatsoever about how to accomplish this (if anything is a proof of that is that the Costumer Service manager had to talk to somebody else to decide about it. She then points out that what I got is the Windows *Media*Center* and that was what I was getting 40 euros for. Windows XP HOME is for free. Comes with all models. She pointed that I had ordered it that way. Dudes, I really went through that order, really picked the cheapest OS price. If XP Media costs more, then it's got to have been "promotion" then. After this it got in a way "ugly", I said was going to take them to the NMa, the lady again had no problems with that. For a while this lady would forget the "150 euro laptop back" thing and declare the policy is in writing and point to the 47euro. The thing is: she tried to use the written agreement to make me give up (using that 47euro transport item), and I kept saying the User Agreement *does* *not* say how to return OEM. Since I can't ship the OEM back so there is no point to charge me "transportation" costs. Then she remembers this actually does make sense e comes back to 150e-laptop-back option. She also points out: I can return the whole thing. (which is actually tempting after such an exchange). I tried at least to make this woman give in that Dell has NO return OEM policy, DESPITE explicitly stating that OEM return is possible. She did not give in the policy is not in writing and we hang up. ======================================== Conclusions (not in the best order): 1. Dell explicitly states in the User Agreement returning OEM software is possible. 2. Dell costumer care does not seem to know about that (they all deny it at first) and don't know what to do with it. 3. Managers and everybody else will state that Windows XP costs nothing and that MS Works costs nothing as well. In essence the price of it is an integral part of any laptop/computer you may buy. 3.a. So Dell LIE about the price of Windows XP HOME and MS Works to it's clients: "it's for free". 3.b. They should instead claim: it's a tied sale. 3.c. BUT how can it be a tied sale IF, see (1), Dell allows me to return OEM software? 3.d In any case, Dell refuses to disclose the actual full price of MS products. Which is also a violation of my interests as a consumer: Windows costs money, if I can return it as they state, I should be able to know how much I am entitled for it. 4. Dell Costumer Care will point out an unfair, unrealistic solution to OEM returns, which is to pay 47 euros. This is unfair and unrealistic (probably ilegal) because they are trying to charge me 37 euros of transport. 5. The policy to return OEM is NOT in writing, the Costumer Care *Manager* had to go talk to somebody else to learn about it. (the actual policy is "return the laptop to erase".) 6. Dell Costumer Support people probably believe what they say when they say Windows is for free or that is has no price. The company writes no cost in the order and probably don't let them know about the real costs. so to get money back from Dell you either: 6.a. get a costumer support person to bear the costs (be nice to you) within Costumer Support or (ii) to avoid you to return "used" software. 6.b. to get a lawyer to remind Dell about costumer law. ============================ That was it. I'm full with this. Also trying not to get too pissed with Dell (I need the laptop to work, so I can't return it). As soon as I finish this chapter (of my thesis) I might take an evening to try to write a complain to the NMa. I'll make one, even if it's not the best one. It should be better than nothing. Kwint, I'll let you know about this complain when I'm about to make it. Best regards to everybody, Francisco |
| grouch Apr 13, 2006 9:35 AM EDT |
Moral of the story: If you lie down with dogs, expect to get fleas. Don't buy Dell. I would rather go back to using a slide rule than pay a dollar for a Dell. Dell is just another parasite riding on that mangy, rabid mutt Microsoft. |
| jdixon Apr 13, 2006 9:48 AM EDT |
> Don't buy Dell. Agreed, but I don't know what options he may have. In the US, MWave offers a laptop without Windows at: http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=nb-ba2173... and there other companies which will preload Linux for you, but he's not in the US. |
| number6x Apr 13, 2006 10:28 AM EDT |
As of a few years ago, hp offered mandriva on laptops in France:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5831949/ I would expect more choice in the European market than in the American due to demand. |
| fborges Apr 13, 2006 10:50 AM EDT |
About buying from Dell: 1. The only shops I heard of selling laptops without XP were German; 2. visiting these German shop's websites there were no "easy to find" laptop without Windows; 3. I don't speak german, so searching for these was not as easy; 4. Posting things from Germany to the Netherlands is ridiculously expensive (for the distance they have to cover). I know what I'm talking about, I've ordered hardware from Germany more than once. 5. I needed a laptop ASAP in order to do some work on weekends, so didn't have the time to spend weeks doing laptop-market-research. 6. I did search the web and asked about it in debian-user.... but not finding any remotely cheap linux laptop in the NL, I went to Dell. ----------- While I do think you have a point about "voting with your wallet"... I do pay taxes, and two of things I expect to get from a government are (i) decent consumer laws and (ii) consumer law enforcement. It's a freaking monopoly and you're not beating it through your own personal wallet, perhaps with your government but not with a handfull of wallets. |
| jdixon Apr 13, 2006 11:10 AM EDT |
> I would expect more choice in the European market than in the American due to demand. I would too, but perhaps not in his specific area. |
| hkwint Apr 13, 2006 11:27 AM EDT |
About the Windows for free thing: The Dell laptops come with Windows installed from India, I believe, so to get a refund, the people in India have to give you those. FBorges: The first five points in your post of Apr 13, 2006, 11:22 AM, are a real good "tip" to the NMa. Thanks to the forum, you have all documented, so you can point the NMa to this discussion. Look forward to hearing from you. |
| henke54 Apr 18, 2006 11:21 AM EDT |
“Microsoft discovered we had OEM software without the hardware, which we believe is legal,” a spokesman for one of the companies, Castania, told The Register. “We never combined CAOs with different software, that is what Microsoft is saying, and they don’t have any proof.” More importantly, Castania argues, Microsoft itself is selling CAOs without the appropriate software to “royalty OEM vendors”. "We believe that is anti-competitive." http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/04/18/sued_for_coa_lab... |
| hkwint Apr 26, 2006 12:14 AM EDT |
OK, Dimitri Haddeman of Dell replied to my mail, saying he didn't give it the 'right priority' last time he received it, but that would all change now. Sounds interesting. About the NMa: We could better forget about it. The NMa isn't the right institution, since other people already failed to put the tied sales of hard- and software on the priority list of the NMa. Instead, we'd better file a complaint at European level, with the Competiton Directorate which is under the authority of Neelie Kroes. The department of Neelie Kroes already showed, Microsoft and its uncompetetive behaviour are a priority for them. Now, it's time to find my way in the European Competiton institutions. |
| dafydd Jul 02, 2006 1:43 AM EDT |
hi,
just read all this. esp the last point about having to make a complaint to the European Commission (which is what I have done and can post a preliminary reply).
I myself called Dell Belgium (in Dutch) to get an ultralight laptop etc. That was the main condition. But another condition was that I would 'prefer' not to pay for something (Windows XP) that I would not be using as I already have a legitimate operating system (Ubuntu). The Dell person (Dutchman in The Netherlands) asked his boss, and then said 'okay, we can offer you a discount of EUR89). I really think we need to act together, trying to mobilize consumer organizations, and aiming to make complaints against national and EC competition and consumer authorities. Here's my complaint (followed by the reply and an article by bloomberg): Dear Secretary General, Dear Ms Day, I am writing to make a formal complaint concerning the forced sale of Microsoft OS with notebooks in Belgium and other EU countries, and more specifically the failure of Belgian authorities to prevent the distortion of the market for notebook laptop computers. All major notebook computer suppliers in Belgium, perhaps representing almost 99% of the retail notebook market, offer no option other than to pay for a pre-installed version of Windows. Such companies include Dell, Packard Bell, Photo Hall, MediaMarkt, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu Siemens, and Lenovo. The forced pre-installing of and payment for Microsoft operating systems on notebooks in Belgium has engendered a distorted market. The companies involved maintain confidential pricing policies as to manufacturer-paid charges for the Windows operating systems. However, there are indications that this could lead to excess charges of EUR 100 for unit purchased by an end consumer. As a user of an alternative operating system based upon a GNU General Public License, as do some 5 percent of notebook users, I myself now face being charged for a product I do not and will not need. Although the End User License Agreement (EULA) for the Microsoft Windows XP Professional and Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition refers in vague terms to the possibility of a refund in the event of not installing and not agreeing with the EULA terms, notebook providers in Belgium refuse to offer such refunds and do not have known procedures for so doing. As a normal customer buying a single notebook, it is not possible in any way to configure purchase options so as NOT to pay for a Windows operating system at any of the following retailers: Dell, Packard Bell, Photo Hall, MediaMarkt, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu Siemens, and Lenovo. I therefore request that the Commission make a formal investigation into the distortion of notebook computer market in Belgium and elsewhere as well as to force local authorities to ensure that consumers have the right to choose whether or not to buy a Windows operating system when purchasing a notebook in Belgium and elsewhere within the EU. Yours sincerely, |
| dafydd Jul 02, 2006 1:46 AM EDT |
Here's the (disappointing/uninformed) reply from the Commission's 'consumer officer'. Note this is a first reply to a 'consumer complaint' and the reply to the other more official competition complaint may differ. If you would like a jpg copy of the Commission's reply please email me dafyddabiago at gmail punt company : Dear Mr. Ferguson, Thank you for your email dated I7 June 2006 to the Consumer Officer. This email relates to the possibility of purchasing PCs without a preinstalled Windows operating system. The Commission is aware of the difficulties encountered by consumers to purchase PCs without an operating system on them or alternatively with another operating system than Windows. As regards the possibility of purchasing a PC without an operating system, I understand that Microsoft's licensing agreements with PC manufacturers encourage (through the grant of rebates) the pre-installation of operating systems on PCs. However, this does not have to be a Microsoft operating system. The Commission is not aware of any obligation either contractual or financial, obliging the PC OEMs to sell their PCs with Windows operating systems in particular. Furthermore, it appears that the choice of a PC vendor to offer PC with or without an OS is not so much influenced by the rebate offered by Microsoft than by the existence of effective consumer demand for PCs with operating systems. We suspect that the structure of the market and demand from consumers is the driving force behind the decision by PC vendors to offer Windows preinstalled on the majority of their computers. If this is information is confirmed, the conduct of PC manufacturers would be justified by pure commercial reasons and may not fall under the provisions of EC competition law. That said we have not yet finalized our review of the market and are grateful that you took time to inform us of the problems you have encountered. Against this background, I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that the Commision intends to examine these questions in greater detail in the future. Yours sincerely, Angel TRADACETE COCERA EUROPEAN COMMISSION DG Competition Director Directorate C: Information, Communication and Media B-1049 Brussels |
| grouch Jul 02, 2006 10:23 AM EDT |
dafydd: Your letter is excellent, IMO! Thank you for sharing it and the response you received. Maybe some more people will be inspired, by your complaint, to take action. |
| dinotrac Jul 02, 2006 11:22 AM EDT |
dafydd -- I'm confused by one thing, though... You complained that it was impossible to buy a computer without buying Windows, but it sounds like the Dell Guys were willing to deduct the price of Windows from the machine. What am I missing? |
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