Opinions wanted: Less talk about MS on Linux sites?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| hkwint Jun 27, 2006 10:16 AM EDT |
Dear LXer readers, I'd like to hear your opinion about this issue. On a lot of Linux sites, including LXer, there is a lot of attention going to Microsoft and the stuff they do. When they come with new products that suck (or not), it is covered on Linux sites. When they spread FUD, it's covered on Linux sites. When they hinder competition, it's covered. When they try to stop ODF and push OpenXML, we cover it in great detail. When they bully a kid called Mike Row, it's covered. It doesn't work the other way around most of the times. MS doesn't cover the release of Suse 10.1. They normally won't react on studies showing Linux has lower TCO than Windows. They won't cover worries of Red Hat. The Get the Facts campaign probably is an exception, and it could even have helped Linux. Though I am sure most of us want to see Microsoft and Linux as two distinct things, they can't be seen separate from each other, especially because of Microsoft bullying Linux. Then, there's the monopoly and anti-competetive behaviour of which Linux users suffer. Anti-Microsoft stories attract readers, even raises readership and starts new discussions. Nonetheless, I noticed some people get tired of all Microsoft news on Linux sites. If people like me would spend less time about telling people how bad Microsoft is, and spend that time on writing about Linux, it would help more. If I was Microsoft, I wouldn't be afraid of much. I wouldn't be afraid of tons of people telling me my product sucks. The only thing that I would be afraid of, is that people stop talking about my products. Especially when they spend the time normally used to flame their products, to talk about alternative products, which might be better. Even better than stopping to write about Microsoft on Linux sites, would be to start talking about Linux on Microsoft sites. The port25 initiative is one of the places where this happens. Nonetheless, people over there are mostly flaming MS instead of putting efforts into explaining why people could benefit from a switch to Linux. So, what's your opinion in this case? Are Microsoft and Linux related to such a level that we can't see them separate from each other, or do you think we should talk less about MS? |
| salparadise Jun 27, 2006 10:43 AM EDT |
I think some it comes from a (frequently burning) desire to set the record straight. If we don't scream "lies" when they tell lies how will anyone know? That said, we probably waste a lot of bandwidth "preaching to the choir ". Perhaps a double strategy of more positive accounts that focus on the advantages/benefits of Linux, which are then linked to at appropriate MS sites, would bring more truth to the eyes that need it most. |
| tuxchick2 Jun 27, 2006 11:13 AM EDT |
metoo what sal said. |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2006 11:20 AM EDT |
hk - I'm a bit torn on this one. When MS speaks, 800 lb gorilla that it is, it's hard to ignore. MS's moves will be news, and they will be relevant to Linux... but... maybe not every freakin' word they say! I remember something Eric Raymond said with regard to espionage. Espionage is a two-edged sword. It's good to find out what the enemy is doing, but when you focus too much energy on finding out their secrets, you risk being in perpetual catch-up mode. The truth is that we make Microsoft bigger and more important than it is. The IT landscape is much more than Microsoft and free software. It's IBM and Oracle and Google and Apple and Sun and Cisco and Yahoo and Sun and umpteen bazillion smaller players. Beyond that, focusing on Microsoft tends to bring out negative energy. Those evil Microsofties, war, unethical this, jail that, etc. Whatever else it may be, that mind set is not very useful for reaching out the unconverted. People really are interested in the things free software can do. Few outside the circle of geeks really care that much about Microsoft. It's good to be able to talk to folks in terms they will connect with. This is not a bad place to practice the art. |
| sbergman27 Jun 27, 2006 11:23 AM EDT |
I'd like to see less said about MS on Linux related sites. Yes, of course everything that MS does affects everyone else in the industry, including Linux and Linux users. But there is hardly a lack of coverage whenever an MS exec sneezes. As to us going to non-linux forums and doing missionary work there, be careful. Remember that you are not the first Linux advocate that has been to the site, and that the poorest Linux advocates also seem to be the most vocal ones. Also, consider how you would react if a FreeBSD missionary showed up on your favorite Linux site determined to "save" everyone there from Linux. |
| tuxchick2 Jun 27, 2006 11:37 AM EDT |
criminy, now Newsforge is running those triple-dommed Get the Facts ads, right smack in the middle. Ok, count me in for less microshaft, more Linux, and screw Newsforge. Linux Today has an excuse- they are a tiny part of a giant, very Windows-dominated conglomerate. Newsforge has no such excuse. I think there is merit in wanting a nice quiet corner of the Web that is not microsofted all to heck. http://tuxcomputing.com/newsforge-getthefacts_1.jpg |
| jimf Jun 27, 2006 11:39 AM EDT |
> we probably waste a lot of bandwidth "preaching to the choir ". Space perhaps, but, you can ignore those repetitive articles and threads. We all triage our Internet reading per our interests, and I don't see this as any different. For those who are (hard to believe, but, still?) unaware of MS's sleaze, I suppose it serves a purpose. |
| SamShazaam Jun 27, 2006 12:13 PM EDT |
Dittos to dinotrac. John Wooden, the famous basketball coach for UCLA, had nothing but disdain for scouting reports on the opposing teams. He believed that you should stop worrying about what the opponents will do to you and start planning what you will do to them. I like to see "facts" about Microsoft, such as schedules, releases, exploits, or plans. These are things Microsoft is doing or is planning to do. I do not want to see opinions about Microsoft. These are things the writer thinks Microsoft should do or might do. Whether we like it or not, we live in a MS world. At least for now. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 27, 2006 12:33 PM EDT |
To not talk about MS and/or be silent about what they say and do is as much a mistake as always talking about MS. To be silent about what they say is the same as condoning it. Silence speaks for itself. To not comment on what they do is to become a participant to the action taken. To not take action is an action in itself. This is a news site dedicated to Linux and OSS, whether we, you or I like it, when MS does or says something, it needs to be reported and discussed. If I refuse to talk about the Sun it doesn't keep it from burning me if I stay exposed to it. At least in Arizona that is. :-) |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2006 12:51 PM EDT |
Scott -- Nobody has suggested being silent. The suggestion is not to obsess, to spend more time on Linux and free software. |
| helios Jun 27, 2006 1:15 PM EDT |
Allow me...please....and in no particular order: "To be silent about what they say is the same as condoning it. Silence speaks for itself."..... It appears that you may have heard from my better half in an earlier post. Bless her heart for entering the lion's den. I am proud of her....hell not for posting, for just reading here. The fact that she posted here or anywhere that concerns Linux is significant in itself. It has taken me the better part of two years to make her understand that by just purchasing or just using MS products, one is culpable in the proliferation of MS Sprawl. Yes, there is a point of diminished return when one preaches to the choir, but only because a form of sensory numbness sets in and the message loses its impact. I write a blog and maintain a Linux website because I HOPE some of the choir members will go forth and begin explaining to "non church members" what the message really is. No one is bashing MS because Bill Gates has a geeky haircut or Steve Ballmer has a geeky hai....wait. or because Stever Ballmer is a social idiot. MS is attacked and vilified because they plan for world domination and for making choice an alien concept in computing. Ask Peter Quinn. While I find great sport in bashing MS, there is a tendency to take such shadow boxing lightly. If enough people DO NOT care...Linux, SkyOS, BSD, and any other system that dreams of providing a safer and better way of operating a computer, will be crushed by the Microsoft Machine. People MUST know they have a choice and NEED to know it is important they consider that choice carefully. Via the Trusted Computing Module and the DRM element, we may one day wake up and find that Microsoft is the "official" operating system of the United States...that none of the others can be "trusted" to generate, store, send, receive and manipulate data in a secure way. If you think I am kidding...stand by for news. There are those who presently hold Congressional and Senatorial Seats who believe just that. h |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2006 1:39 PM EDT |
Helios - OK... Now query me this... What's more effective... Bashing or building? What's most likely to get you listened to? |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 27, 2006 1:48 PM EDT |
Bashing of course.. |
| richo123 Jun 27, 2006 1:58 PM EDT |
Modified Godwin's Law (Replace Nazis with Karl Rove): And so..... Karl Rove demonstrated very effectively at the last election that bashing works much better than rational debate. |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2006 2:06 PM EDT |
richo123 -- I thought that the Democrats proved rather convincingly that it does not. |
| tuxchick2 Jun 27, 2006 2:13 PM EDT |
Nah, it just proves that the Democrats are wimpy and inferior bashers. Like everything else they do. |
| richo123 Jun 27, 2006 2:14 PM EDT |
dino, The Democrats are pissweak amateurs, that's why they lost. Karl is a master. |
| sbergman27 Jun 27, 2006 2:23 PM EDT |
If bashing is more effective than building, I think we should adopt it as our strategy. We know our cause is right. In the end, if we get there by bashing, does it really make that much difference, as long as we achieve our goals? |
| tuxchick2 Jun 27, 2006 2:26 PM EDT |
sbergman27, it depends on who you want to win over- foaming polarized pinheads, or rational people. |
| jimf Jun 27, 2006 3:36 PM EDT |
> There are those who presently hold Congressional and Senatorial Seats who believe just that. Absolutely helios, but it's far worse than that. There are now many in government, Democrat and Republican, who believe that business interests trump the interest of the citizens every time. Now, it appears that many in this Administration and the Congress feel that they have no responsibility or accountability to their constituencies. Microsoft is important in this only as one of a number of entities that benefit from this obscenity. When the President of China firsts visits Bill Gates, and only then the White House, when 70.9% of the wealth in the country is held by 10% of the people, when it is rumored that the new American largess will be distributed by entities like the new Gates foundation rather than by any legitimate Government agency, when we have outsourced nearly all of our manufacturing capabilities (with the Government's blessing), when we are running a 135 billion trade deficit ... Well, I think we the people are in a world of 'trouble', and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Linux as a 'major' choice and FOSS in general are very important elements in one battle for our rights as individuals. But, I can't help thinking that 'even if' we win this battle, we have already lost the war. The 'only' redress that we have to restore at least some of our rights, control over companies like Microsoft, and other issues that affect us, is through our vote and communication with our legislators. Write and email your legislators. Tell them what you think on issues, and, find out what they support and how they are voting. Get involved with support of those legislators you believe in. Finally, for god's sake, vote for the people that support the issues you believe in, not just because they're Democrat or Republican. Ok, that's cliched and most of you won't do jack with it anyway, but, I had to say it. When you wake up tomorrow with your head in a vise, don't say "nobody warned me". |
| helios Jun 27, 2006 3:41 PM EDT |
We should all strive to win over those who do not realize their dangerous environment. I Shamelessly mimicked something with great literary content, and am close to finishing an article entitled, (God I may lose friends for this...), The Artful Basher (The Argument for Tastefully Disemboweling One's Opponent) Logic dictates that the failure of a product should certainly be used to substantiate the claim of superiority for another. Bashing for the sake of it is not only waste of time, it may cause others to stop reading past the byline of future writing efforts. If an author is ONLY known for bashing, then there are only so many ways she can express how product X suX. "Didn't She write about the same thing last week?" I don't want to know that the CEO of the competing product is a cross dresser or that employees of that firm habitually molest Manatees. The purchasing public see's through that immediately and it may have the opposite effect. However, if done in a humorous way, I have seen it to be effective. Semantics are going to cloud the issue here and anywhere this topic is discussed. Is an attempt to tell people that the software company they use is making a concerted effort with others to control their computers "bashing?" Can bashing be defined as informing the computing public that Microsoft is working against the best interest of their customers? Not if it can be substantiated via brutal critique and research. Personally, I cannot see any effective way of offering Linux as a desktop alternative without telling people why it is better than the system they are using. Pointing out the fascist-like stipulations within the Microsoft Office and Windows XP EULA is not bashing, it is a public service. I personally believe that Microsoft would suffer at least a 40 percent loss in license renewals if their customers actually read the EULA or took it to an attorney for advice. Unfortunately, this issue has turned political beyond repair. Microsoft has so intertwined their business with the politics of this nation, that it will take years to figure it out. For that alone, I am subject to bring out the Big B's. Helios - OK... Now query me this... What's more effective... Bashing or building? You must first tear down the physical matter before you can build on the space it occupies. Systematic, logical and sustained attacks against the weakness of that entity will give way eventually. When people can see an obvious advantage of one product over another, it becomes academic. That is until they discover they actually have to learn something different in order to do so...and Bill Gates recognizing THAT truism alone makes him a genius, not the fact that he has kept a semblance of an operating system running. No amount of reasoned agrument, bashing or persuasion can dislodge laziness as a powerful human behavior. |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2006 4:34 PM EDT |
>Personally, I cannot see any effective way of offering Linux as a desktop alternative without telling people why it is better than the system they are using. Pointing out the fascist-like stipulations within the Microsoft Office and Windows XP EULA is not bashing, it is a public service. Making comparisons and explaining advantages/disadvantages is not bashing. It is informing. We don't live in a vacuum. There is no need to pretend that it doesn't exist or that it is remotely nice. I just picture umpteen recent divorcees. Those who let go of the bitterness and get on with their lives make out well. The others don't. It takes energy, mindshare, and time to bash Microsoft obssessively, time in which you aren't honestly supporting and enjoying free software. At that point, you have become Microsoft's prisoner as surely as the soldiers in their EULA parade. |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2006 5:39 PM EDT |
> There are now many in government, Democrat and Republican, who believe that business interests trump the interest of the citizens every time. I'd make a small change to that sentence: ... the business interests of those who contribute to relection campaigns... This is for national elected office in the US, but it's largely true at the state level also. Politicians live to be relected. Being relected costs money. That's the ONLY thing which really matters to most politicians. Anything else is secondary to furthering that goal. Unless you have money to give, or possibly a worthy news story for free publicity, you're not going to get your foot in the door of most elected politicians. And don't count on letter writing getting you anywhere either. Unless you have money to give or some type of personal association, a letter will simply be read by low paid staff and tossed into the appropriate stack for counting or action. Thus, for letter writing, numbers is what counts, not content (though the wrong content can get the letter trashed immediately, or worse yet forwarded to the FBI/Secret Service, so that's no quite true). Numbers as in thousands, not tens or hundreds. The cards are indeed stacked against us in this fight. However, we have one advantage: The willingness of the American people to engage in civil disobedience. Americans are not above breaking the law when it suits them, and unpopular laws eventually get changed for exactly this reason. Prohibition and the 55 mph speed limit are two obvious examples. |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2006 5:41 PM EDT |
Oh, helios, glad to see you made it back. Your wife's post were a pleasure. I'm sorry you didn't get to take me up on the offer for dinner in Morgantown (see your blog post for the details). Oh, and I apologize for the double post on the Vector Linux thread. It took forever to show up, so I assumed it had been eaten. You can delete one of them. |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2006 5:54 PM EDT |
Oh, and as to my take on the subject at hand... Fud fighting is important, as is knowing what Microsoft is doing publicly. Conjecture stories and analyst stories about Microsoft gain us little. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer may be a good strategy, but there's no reason to be over-analytical about it. |
| dcparris Jun 27, 2006 6:07 PM EDT |
Interestingly, I have been working on this very issue. Grouch and I discussed this just a little over a week ago. While the debate with Titch was good for exposing FUD, I simultaneously realized that we needed more focus on other areas as well. So LXer will be focusing more on GNU/Linux-oriented projects in the coming months. Gee, what a novel idea for a GNU/Linux news site, eh? |
| hkwint Jun 27, 2006 10:07 PM EDT |
Don, I'm glad you also started to think about it. Being involved in the Heartland thing a bit, I was thinking exactly the same. Therefore, I thought it was a good idea to ask our 'loyal' readers. It was especially because one of sbergman27's remarks (long time ago) I was thinking about this. That's why I started writing about Gentoo a few days ago. The follow up is coming by the way, with some interesting new stuff, although I hope. Nonetheless, bashing about Microsoft does give a person a better feeling sometimes, if done in a right way. I remember my own story "Is MS Windows ready for the desktop?" which was really fun to write. Thanks for your responses above, I think they could - at least to me - be a help when deciding which stories to post in the future (though I don't post much stories, but anyway). And as a meantime conclusion, I could probably say: We can't ignore Microsoft, we should fight their lies, we should try to teach people about their tactics, but we shouldn't forget that FLOSS (or FOSS or OSS, whatever) should be our biggest focus. Not every MS fart should be covered, since that's a waste of time. |
| Teron Jun 28, 2006 12:00 AM EDT |
*agrees with underlined stuff* |
| sbergman27 Jun 28, 2006 12:15 PM EDT |
Dean said: >Beyond that, focusing on Microsoft tends to bring out negative energy. Those evil Microsofties, war, unethical this, jail that, etc. I've been pondering this. And I think this is the main thing that bothers me about focusing on the other camps instead of on our own camp. It brings out a negative attitude. It's a sort of cancer of the mind. And it doesn't stop with MS. Anything that is "non-self" gets attacked these days. Apple, Sun, *BSD. There are always good "reasons" to attack them. E.g., "they condone proprietary drivers" seems a popular "reason" these days. But to me, many of the "reasons" look like *excuses*. In the end, it's really mostly our "choir" that reads the point by point rebuttals of all those vicious lies... the "FUDing"... the "Astroturfing"... that all the other camps are writing about us. And it's our "choir" that reads the doomsday scenarios outlining the horrors that would befall the world should another faction win. Of course, we *are* better. We don't overstate the capabilities of our chosen OS like those Solaris guys. We don't overstate the usability of our OS like those Mac zealots. We aren't smug like those Windows users who think they are so very computer savvy. And we never put down any other OS as being "fringe". If any one of our community did act like that, I'm sure we would all be quick with a point by point rebuttal to set the record straight. But still, there is room for improvement. |
| dinotrac Jun 28, 2006 12:49 PM EDT |
>But still, there is room for improvement. ;0) |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 28, 2006 4:32 PM EDT |
Quoted:
"We can't ignore Microsoft, we should fight their lies, we should try to teach people about their tactics, but we shouldn't forget that FLOSS (or FOSS or OSS, whatever) should be our biggest focus. Not every MS fart should be covered, since that's a waste of time." YES, YES, YES!!!!! I could not agree more. But why is it that when there is a story about some bug fix for Linux that all of a sudden there is a 'Linux security threat', but no one wants to talk about how there are security holes as big as the Grand Canyon (which I have hiked into, which makes me an expert, kinda) that M$ will not fix still out there. If they have the media wrapped around their finger then it is our job to refute these reports as we see fit. I for one am tired of all the crap that passes for news in this(U.S.) country. I realize that just reacting to the FUD is not enough but someone has to stand up and say "I've had enough and I'm not going to take anymore!" Obviously, we cannot make the sheep listen and there will always be those who buy whatever is put before them but the success of websites like this is a testament to the power of the Truth. I would have never found this place and become a part of it if I was not interested in knowing more than I did. Sorry for the rant.. :-) |
| dinotrac Jun 28, 2006 5:26 PM EDT |
>but no one wants to talk about how there are security holes as big as the Grand Canyon (which I have hiked into, which makes me an expert, kinda) that M$ will not fix still out there. Don't know if that's true, but maybe I don't pay enough attention. I do know, however, that I have seen plenty of coverage of "critical" MS security holes in the mainstream press, not to coverage of big virus outbreaks. It's not like nobody knows there are big problems. I think the real problem is that they don't understand how different Linux and some of the free alternatives are. That, I think, gets back to my original point. |
| jimf Jun 28, 2006 7:12 PM EDT |
I'm not sure how much the security issue matters to desktop users. Experienced users pretty well know what precautions to take. It takes attention and effort, but, I ran W2K for years with no security exploits. Inexperienced users are another matter, but they rarely attribute their problems to security until you actually hit them in the head with what's happening. |
| grouch Jun 28, 2006 7:48 PM EDT |
Personally, if I don't see a direct tie to FOSS in an otherwise MS story, I delete the sucker. Doesn't matter if it's anti- or pro-MS, if there is no direct relationship to FOSS, it's a non-story, IMO. Pining for the fjords won't bring it back, either. |
| dinotrac Jun 28, 2006 7:54 PM EDT |
>Pining for the fjords won't bring it back, either. How about the Chjevies? |
| mvermeer Jun 28, 2006 11:53 PM EDT |
> It doesn't work the other way around most of the times. Hans, it's called "asymmetric warfare" for a reason ;-) > While the debate with Titch was good for exposing FUD, I simultaneously realized that we needed more focus on other areas as well. Don, I think you're right. There was another thing about these refutations that I didn't like without precisely being able to put my finger on it. It's you working from the assumption that Titch was actually expressing honestly held (though mistaken) opinions, and that it was your job to educate him to the error of his ways. At least, that's what it mostly felt like to me. Yes I know this is proper debating style; you cannot just call your opponent a lying bastard. Well you can, but then the "debate" is over. A legitimate question though seems to me whether one should concentrate on showing the opponent factually wrong, or on exposing his motives and his intentional dishonesty. So I throw this question on the floor: what is proper style to deal with dishonesty? It's an eternal question and I don't have a ready answer. |
| grouch Jun 29, 2006 1:19 AM EDT |
mvermeer: http://edge-op.org/grouch/fudsters.html |
| dcparris Jun 29, 2006 10:10 AM EDT |
> A legitimate question though seems to me whether one should concentrate on showing the opponent factually wrong, or on exposing his motives and his intentional dishonesty. My goal was to draw him out, and let the audience see him for what he is. Even so, I distinctly recall referring to his actions as trolling in my last article (i.e., Titch is a troll). I also blasted his skills as a researcher. I thought I was pretty harsh about his "view". I left it up to Hans to write the expository piece. In the Marines, we called it a flanking manuever. :-) Please don't think I thought he was sincere. |
| jdixon Jun 29, 2006 10:30 AM EDT |
> Please don't think I thought he was sincere. Oh, don't worry, we didn't. :) |
| hkwint Jun 29, 2006 1:35 PM EDT |
Quoting:A legitimate question though seems to me whether one should concentrate on showing the opponent factually wrong, or on exposing his motives and his intentional dishonesty. Both of them would be probably the best, though it also depends on how serious the opponent is. If the opponent 'is' a think tank, we can be rather sure they don't want to represent facts, but to influence people. If the opponent isn't that serious, it's a waste of time to pay attention to him after shown that he shouldn't be taken seriously cause he's talking BS. Referring to the FUD-table grouch posted above, Titch was in the class Quoting:No argument will sway them except a higher bid. There's also another class of (people) users, the one doubting about switching. I believe, it would be better to encourage them to use Linux by telling them a smart person uses Linux, than by discouraging them to use Windows by telling them all stupid (locked in) persons use Windows. The case described in the above sentence regularly appears in a more abstract way: telling how bad Windows is could be interpreted by some people as saying Windows users (they) are dumb. Thinking about that, we should write an article why Linux users are smart! |
| NoDough Jun 29, 2006 1:44 PM EDT |
>On a lot of Linux sites, including LXer, there is a lot of attention going to Microsoft and the stuff they do. (with strong southern draw) Who's Macroshaft? |
| dcparris Jun 29, 2006 4:14 PM EDT |
NoDough:
> (with strong southern draw) Who's Macroshaft? You're not from the South, are you. Any good Southerner can pick a missing double 'A' any day. It should be macrosha-aft. |
| dinotrac Jun 29, 2006 5:30 PM EDT |
Rev - As a long-displaced Southern boy, stuck up in Yankee country, I must admit there are time when I miss the cadence of a place where "I" is a two syllable word. |
| NoDough Jun 29, 2006 5:58 PM EDT |
Don, I'm currently living just outside Raleigh, NC. The natives insist that it is the south. Who am I to argue? I was born and raised in central Kansas, so I'm a midwesterner by heritage. The farm I was raised on isn't the middle of nowhere, but you can see it from there. |
| grouch Jun 29, 2006 6:00 PM EDT |
Smatterchu people, anyways? Maacrosaw-uft ain't got no hope uh beetin owut Gunoo. It's a dead thang, floppin roun thout its hed. Pull up a cheer an''joy thshow. Jeetchet? J-ownttoo? |
| NoDough Jun 29, 2006 6:07 PM EDT |
grouch, Shawur. Yawall awna kurry ma dow'na bo-jengas? Gessum check'n? |
| grouch Jun 29, 2006 6:25 PM EDT |
Nodough: Air ye within hollerin distance? You must live nearby, to have deciphered that. The scary part is, I read your reply and understood it the first time through. ;o) |
| dcparris Jun 29, 2006 6:32 PM EDT |
Gee (I mean, Gaawwllleee) NoDough! We need to make plans for an LXerfest (as opposed to a lobsterfest) sometime. So what would it take to coax you down to Charlotte? |
| salparadise Jun 29, 2006 9:59 PM EDT |
As an aside, and somewhat off topic, not all of us/you/our readers are from America.
You do slip into provincialism rather quickly at times. I and all those mentioned above, as none US residents, have next to no idea what you are on about. Please bear this in mind. |
| grouch Jun 29, 2006 10:05 PM EDT |
salparadise: I keep that in mind, but couldn't resist the opportunity to confuse and confound with a bit of phonetic dialect, after NoDough tossed in the "southern draw [sic]". Glad you're recovering, BTW. |
| mvermeer Jun 29, 2006 10:08 PM EDT |
> telling how bad Windows is could be interpreted by some people as saying Windows users (they) are dumb. And it would also be untrue. Many Windows users are not (generically) dumb at all. For some of them, it's about something they haven't figured out yet, because nobody told them. For others, that they (realistically) have no choice. Victims, not dummies, in both cases. (Making people victims is also dangerous BTW. Most people don't like that.) Your idea is good: "The top 2% of desktop users choose Linux." "Early adopters", ... |
| dinotrac Jun 29, 2006 10:40 PM EDT |
Martin and HK - Looks like you've got your thinking caps on. You are absolutely correct about the implied message of user stupidity. Odd how badly people take to being told they are stupid. |
| dcparris Jun 30, 2006 9:22 AM EDT |
> I and all those mentioned above, as none US residents, have next to no idea what you are on about. Watch a re-run of "The Beverly Hillbillies". :-) Although I have to say, most of the British I met seemed more familiar with The Waltons. I never claimed the state I grew up in as home, and so always claimed to be from Virginia. The Brits would refer to Walton's Mountain, and I explained that I lived about 30 minutes away from there. I did go to school near Charlottesville, so there was more truth to it than fiction. |
| dinotrac Jun 30, 2006 9:24 AM EDT |
Rev -- And how far from Culpepper? |
| hkwint Jun 30, 2006 3:02 PM EDT |
OK, nu weer klaar met het geouwehoer over dialecten en weer on-topic AUB! |
| dcparris Jun 30, 2006 3:14 PM EDT |
Dino: Figure from Palmyra/Fork Union - I've forgotten now. About 15 or 30 miles? Hans: Yeah, what you said! :-p |
| dinotrac Jun 30, 2006 4:59 PM EDT |
Hans - Maybe clear to you, not so clear to me. Reminds me, though, of the fall I worked in Rotterdam -- more than twenty years ago. Not wanting to be the ugly American, I tried hard to pick up scraps of Dutch. I could even go to the local deli (that did not -- as opposed to could not -- speak English) and get what I wanted, at least if it was chicken. But I was brought back to earth on one of my first weekends in town. I had learned how to ask for directions back to my hotel. Out on Saturday night and a little bit lost, I trotted my Dutch and asked a kindly stranger for the way. That's when I learned: If you ask for directions in Dutch, you're going to get directions in Dutch. Fortunately, he had a good sense of humor and repeated the directions in English. |
| hkwint Jul 01, 2006 12:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:Maybe clear to you, not so clear to me. The same as Sal said: Pleas stop the provincialism because non-US readers don't understand what you're talking about (The Dutch phrase was meant to illustrate this) and bring this discussion back on topic please. (Sorry to be harsh here, but I wanted to get the opinion of our readers about some things here. We could start a topic about American dialects in another thread if you people like) |
| dinotrac Jul 01, 2006 2:58 AM EDT |
Hans - How do you stop provincialism? What you call "provincialism" is really just a matter of people being who they are. Europeans (and Africans and Asians , and, in all likelihood, antarctic penguins) are eually guilty because, well, we are all people -- except, maybe, for those penguins. We're going to do it. You're going to do it. Somtimes it will be annoying. C'est la vie. |
| sbergman27 Jul 01, 2006 6:48 AM EDT |
Hans, It's definitely a balancing act. Getting back on topic, perhaps an example of a site that, IMO, gets it right would be helpful. http://www.lwn.net is the site that I consider to be the best Linux news site on the net. There is coverage of MS, and SCO, and all the stuff that impinges on OSS from the outside. But the primary focus is and has always been Linux itself. Specifically, the nuts and bolts of how to work with Linux and how to make it work for your users. (The Weekly Edition, specifically the kernel page, is the highlight of my week!) Software freedom is also emphasized. But the focus is more on how you can be more effective with Linux. I find that LXer is more about Linux *advocacy*. How to argue with the other factions and win. And that may very well be what LXer readers want. I'm not complaining. But my vote is in favor of more articles dealing with the nuts and bolts of OSS, and less articles dealing with the personalities, companies, and politics surrounding OSS. Again, though, I'll say it's a balancing act. As great as LWN's kernel page is, story after story after story about Linux kernel internals would become *almost* as boring as story after story after story about "how evil Microsoft is" would become. |
| hkwint Jul 01, 2006 7:25 AM EDT |
Thanks for your opinion. If I remember well, I once described LXer as a news and opinion site. In my opinion, it's also about what you want your site to be: only competing or complementing. I think LXer surely brings additional value to other sites, since there are topics on LXer that are left out on most other sites. Opinion can be nice, but we could bring some more 'technical' articles. I'm working on that, with the 'Gentoo diary' series now (next week I really hope), and Don is also working on some new stuff. So not too much about MS for the coming period, as far as we know now. Of course, anybody willing to write an article about FOSS is welcome to do so (go here: http://lxer.com/story_howto.php ) |
| sbergman27 Jul 01, 2006 7:38 AM EDT |
Just to be clear, I think that the current editorial staff here is doing a fine job. There was a period in LXer's history in which I would *not* have said that. I appreciate you efforts. And, psst! Just between you and me. I like a good "Evil Microsoft Just Shot Themselves In The Foot" story as much as anyone. But as Dean observed, it brings out a lot of negative energy. And it's the *positive* energy that attracted me to OSS in the first place. Just call me an electron, I guess. |
| grouch Jul 01, 2006 10:53 AM EDT |
Ok, back on topic: If you want to have a hand in determining what stories appear on LXer, contact Don and volunteer to be an editor. When you do become an editor, actually do some editing. Examine each and every story in the "pending" queue, determine if it is news, determine if it fits LXer (is related to FOSS or Linux), decide if it is just a bit of fluff and text to get hits for ads or provides information some LXer reader wants, edit the story lead to put in the author, categories, fix broken URLs, take out any garbage the feed put in, add a lead from the story if it didn't present one, and post it to the "future" queue. In short, anyone who wants to have a hand in determining what stories get posted on LXer has the opportunity to have "posted by [you]" appear on the Newswire. Don hasn't lobbed a grenade at, nor bayonetted, any volunteer, yet. Currently, most stories say "posted by dcparris", "posted by Scott_Ruecker", or "posted by grouch". The more who step up to help, the less LXer reflects the choices of only that trio. |
| dcparris Jul 01, 2006 9:08 PM EDT |
Heck, you don't even have to become an editor. Just submit links to stories or submit some of your own. Some of you do this already. If you submit links to stories, try to find something fairly unique - we already have plenty of e-Week, Newsforge and Network World stuff. That said, an extra hand to help manage the queues would be welcomed. Why, we even have an Editorial bootcamp to help train you. I'll let grouch tell you how many push-ups he had to do when he let that misspelled word get by him. And Scott can demonstrate, via webcam, the 12-count body builders he got to do when he tried to post that pro-Microsoft article. As you can see, I run a tight ship around here. O.k., would you believe a loosely tight ship? Well, how about if I said I have some loose screws? Seriously, candidates for the editorial team will start on a 90-day probationary period, as "Contributing Editor". If you're actually still doing anything after then, you'll be considered a regular Editor. Sorry, but it's strictly volunteer at the moment. You can also commit to submitting stories of your own on a weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly basis. In that case, you would be - you guessed it - a Contributing Author for the first 90 days. In other words, you're 'contributing' if you're not committed to a regular production cycle of either, editing or writing. Additionally, while Hans and Sal write from Europe, I would like to see folks from Asia, Africa, Australia, the Middle East, and South America join the team as well. |
| jdixon Jul 01, 2006 9:28 PM EDT |
> Well, how about if I said I have some loose screws? Well, we know about grouch. Are there any others? :) |
| salparadise Jul 01, 2006 10:30 PM EDT |
Sanity is over rated. |
| grouch Jul 02, 2006 10:17 AM EDT |
Hey, screws are just nails with a twisted point of view. Regarding MS news on LXer: You have to watch for "drip-feed FUD", as well as those stories that are overtly promotional of MS. "CONSOLIDATED STATEMENT OF FACTS IN SUPPORT OF ITS RESPONSES TO MOTIONS FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT BY MICROSOFT CORPORATION" should be required reading. http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/factstat.html Every tactic described in that document has been used against GNU/Linux. Some are still in use. IMO, all the talk from MS about a "truce" is nothing more than a variation on the vaporware tactic. They appear to be trying to get businesses to just wait, to not switch to GNU/Linux, to stay within the MS monopoly and wait for the truce and interoperability to kick in. It's as dishonest and deceptive as the name "Windows Genuine Advantage". |
| BrianS Jul 02, 2006 2:53 PM EDT |
IMAO, The fact that I know more about what's going on in the M$ world than my cow-orkers, who are some of M$'s helplessly penned-up sheep, actually earns me credibility when I make the comparisons/recommendations that I make. If those of you who are more knowledgable about Operating Systems (OS) in general (the first step to really knowing M$ software for the steaming pile that it is) do not discuss it from this more knowledgable viewpoint, I would have to do more research to maintain the same knowledge level/learning pace. I do have some unix-geek friends who have studied OS design and shared some of their knowledge with me, and I do already read Micro$oft Watch, but the M$ viewpoints I read from those of you who see beyond the big pretty icons and the fisher-price interfaces definitely have helped me to know more. Please continue to share your viewpoints regarding all OS's, including those from Redmond. :-) Thank you for "listening", BrianS |
| henke54 Jul 02, 2006 3:06 PM EDT |
i'll try to do less ...... ;-P .... but here is also a new one : "Computer Sweden is reporting that Microsoft is doing automatic real-time censoring of certain messages on MSN Messenger." http://virtuelvis.com/archives/2006/02/microsoft-censoring-m... |
| jimf Jul 02, 2006 4:41 PM EDT |
> on MSN Messenger Oh yeah! I just wanna run out ad start uising that one. Honestly, anyone who uses MSN Messenger deserves all the nanny perks they're getting. |
| salparadise Jul 02, 2006 10:26 PM EDT |
Microsoft have learned a lesson or two from McDonalds. Get them while they're young and they're more likely to stick with you for life. Warm happy vague childhood feelings upon seeing "the logo".
My daughter is no slouch, (she just took the first part of her maths exam some 5 years ahead of scedule), she can sit in front of any Linux distro, Apple or Windows and do what she wants to do. (Though she has come home from school in tears a few times "because the IT teacher thinks that just because we don't have Windows and Microsoft Office at home that I therefore don't know how to use a computer". When she pointed out to the IT Teacher that she uses Linux the teacher looked confused and carried on without remark).
But when she comes home from school she wants to use Windows.
Why?
"Because all my friends at school use MSN and if I can't use MSN then I can't talk to them."
I pointed out that whilst I understood, it would be better if she encouraged her friends to question Microsoft's dominance and also to find other ways to meet up and chat. She looked at me in horror. I know why. She fears the same reaction I get when I try to "enlighten" some of the people I know. They just don't want to know. They would rather carry on being dumb ignorant consumers than gain knowledge and take authority. This applies not just to Microsoft, but also to the shops they buy in, the clothes they wear and the food they eat. Not only that, but to be "wised up" is not cool, it's a bore, it's tedious. This is perhaps the worst part of the dumbing down of society. So many people have fallen for this "shallow is good, ignorance is good, don't learn just buy buy buy" thing.
I have seen people put their fingers in their ears to avoid hearing the truth. They're that addicted to this life of easy cosumerism. Either that, or so afraid of knowing the truth because it will mean change. I installed aMSN for her. Still not good enough. Why? "There's software that only works on Windows". Such as? Photoshop (she only has the demo version and I'm not about to pay for it new, and yes I know it works on Crossover Office) and PhotoStory (a free MS app that requires WGA, WMP10 and DirectX). (sal pauses to vomit) So I sat her down and explained about China and other parts of the world. "People are in prison!" This worked. Now she's happy to stick with Linux. Never mind the stability and the security. Microsoft have rendered those words meaningless. Talk to them about China. Talk to them about freedom of thought and freedom of speech and KEEP ON AT THEM UNTIL THEY LISTEN. So, no surrender, no compromise, no let up. Surrounded by a host of drones, our left flank has collapsed, our right flank is overrun. We attack at dawn. Until this hideous mindset/company is broken or wakes up and changes. For real. |
| grouch Jul 02, 2006 10:52 PM EDT |
salparadise: Hang in there. It cost me a $90 box of Paint Shop Pro to get my daughter to begin trying out GIMP. I conditioned the purchase on her agreeing to use GIMP every time that she used PSP (and stressed that I meant a fair trial, too). It was the tipping point for her. Shortly after that, she began booting to MS Windows *only* to play The Sims. The next "must have it" was her own website, which she edited using Bluefish. Once she discovered apt-get, she went nuts with free software. Fast-forward to now, she's just completed her 2nd year of CS on full scholarship. Having access to all the information is a real benefit; especially to young, hungry minds. |
| jimf Jul 02, 2006 10:57 PM EDT |
sal, I'd be going after the teacher, the principal, and the school board. Schools have an obligation in this. |
| salparadise Jul 02, 2006 11:51 PM EDT |
Not in the UK they don't. In the Uk they have a culture of "we're so stressed out we can't cope". In the UK we have a government that is so far up the rear end of MS that they sign illegal contracts that bind the education system to Windows for years at a time and then crow about it as though they had done a good thing. In the UK we have a culture of teaching children to obey without question and to consume without conscience. The education system is, after all, a method of preparing future citizens. Future citizens need to be ready to continue the great lie, which is, that all is well and we can carry on regardless. |
| jimf Jul 03, 2006 12:09 AM EDT |
Humm... I don't care what your government, or ours, is saying. Any 'IT' teacher who isn't at least cognisant of Linux is an incompetent in my book. LOL, Get your Daughter to start teaching her friends about IRC... Just tell them that it's way cooler real time than MSN Messenger :P... |
| salparadise Jul 03, 2006 12:19 AM EDT |
Agreed.
But as I say, there is a perception that there's Microsoft or nothing.
Their IT Tech' is a Linux user but he ended up having to install new computers all running XP a few months ago. Resistance to change in entrenched. She's moving on to Senior School this year, so hopefully this new school will be more competent. I will be ready with laptop and prepared speech in case it's not. |
| Inhibit Jul 13, 2006 10:21 AM EDT |
Hey now. I don't post any Microsoft news :). LXer's a well done news aggregations site with original content and forums built on. I expect to get a higher ratio of Microsoft mentioning articles here than on a site that's main drive is writing articles on Linux. Mainly because more than just Linux is relative to Linux. Like.. tech ecosystem focused instead of being focused on a particular tech animal. |
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