Nice job of defining a fundamental problem...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 1:58 AM EDT |
When you boil SVN's points down to the essentials, you are left with this: Microsoft has never had to be very good at what it does, at least not from a software standpoint. Now that it has competition -- from LInux, from Apple, from older versions of it's own software, from OpenDocument-compatible programs, etc, it needs to be better. Unfortunately for Microsoft, it doesn't know how. Just plain doesn't have that experience. |
| watux Jul 31, 2006 3:28 AM EDT |
Microsoft's actual reaction will be to break out the marketing nukes. Again. It has experience at doing that. |
| incinerator Jul 31, 2006 4:26 AM EDT |
Who cares about ms anyway? Btw, this SVJN piece contains so much aggravating crap again I cannot even be bothered to rebuke the article. That guy just doesn't get it. Can't we have a "personal killfile" option in lxer that lets me filter certain authors and make their articles magically disappear from the newswire list? |
| flufferbeer Jul 31, 2006 4:40 AM EDT |
"Microsoft has never had to be very good at what it does, at least not from a software standpoint." Wanna know the biggest reason why? M$ has something that its competitors (Linux, Apple, ...etc.) are STILL striving to successfully achieve. Engrave this one word in your heads: MINDSHARE Among other fine examples of this, please check out Jan Stafford's piece 'Two ways Microsoft sabotages Linux desktop adoption' at http://searchopensource.techtarget.com/columnItem/0,294698,s... |
| incinerator Jul 31, 2006 5:07 AM EDT |
Quoting:M$ has something that its competitors (Linux, Apple, ...etc.) You're getting one thing wrong here: MS has become so successful in the software business because they never had any real competition. So far, they've been very successful eliminating every potential candidate applying for the role of ms's competitor. And they're trying the same with Free Software generally and GNU/Linux particularly. Without real competition, it's quite easy to run a business successfully. However, I still have hope that they won't be able to eliminate Free Software, nor GNU/Linux. |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 5:12 AM EDT |
incinerator - Don't give Microsoft too much credit. One reason they never had real competition is because other companies begged off, Apple being the most egregious example. Apple called the Mac a "computer for the rest of us", but priced it like a "computer for the rich among us". Workstation makers were never remotely interested in less expensive platforms. Microsoft didn't have to do much of anything to get its monopoly -- just be usable enough and cheap enough. |
| incinerator Jul 31, 2006 5:53 AM EDT |
dinotrac, I agree with you here. ms doesn't deserve much credit for what they've done. Many people know that they arent' successful because they have been producing quality software. As for the price competition, I cannot completely agree with you on that point. There were quite a number of competing computer architectures on the market when the PC was introduced. Competing architectures kept on entering the market even after the PC/MS combination had gathered a significant foothold. Some of them were really competitively priced, as well. Look at the likes of the Acorn Archimedes, Amiga and Atari ST. You cannot argue that these computers were overprized when compared to a PC. Strangely enough, the Atari and the Amiga had the image of being "cheap game machines", despite being technologically more advanced than PC technology at that time. I don't think that there's a simple way to explain how ms got to the top. However, it is easy enough to see what kind of things they're doing and planning to do in order to keep staying there. And no, they don't deserve any credit for that. |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 6:04 AM EDT |
incinerator - The Amiga was an especially nice machine that enjoyed popularity for its multimedia power -- before anybody even knew what multimedia was. Remember the video toaster? Note that I didn't include Commodore and Atari on my list (or Coleco). Some computers/architectures failed because of weak companies, poor management, etc. Once Microsoft Windows became usable, network effects did the rest. I'm probably unusual here in that I don't view Microsoft as being especially bad in the scheme of large companies. Not nearly the corporate citizen companies like IBM, GE, or Proctor & Gamble are, but not a special aberration, either. What makes them especially bad is not so much their conduct (some of our more delicate visitors might be shocked to learn how many companies do or try to do the same things Microsoft does), but the fact that they have a monopoly to throw their weight around with. Cut-throat business morphs into illegal conduct when you have sufficient market power. |
| flufferbeer Jul 31, 2006 7:19 AM EDT |
FYI on the PC-level, I would guess that most of those reading this are aware of the failure of IBM's ill-fated OS/2 operating system to gain mindshare, just as M$ was moving along Windoze 9x and NT 4.0 :-( My own point still stands as the foundation for all M$'s good fortunes alluded to above: MINDSHARE. M$ has done whatever it takes to acheive mindshare, whether through - "monopoly market power"-based illegal conduct - eliminating every potential candidate applying for the role of ms's competitor by those companies being "begged-off" or outright being bought-out - the notorious philosophy of Embrace and Extend - terrible sales tactics based on double-talk, FUD, outright legal threats, ... you name it - whatever else incinerator, dinotrac and others can add to this list All comes down to mindshare. IMHO, the first paragraph of this does an acceptable, but not great job of defining mindshare, http://www.answers.com/topic/mind-share |
| boborooster Jul 31, 2006 7:51 AM EDT |
le boborooster must enter and contribute to this: As incinerator basically wrote in another thread to the SJVN piece, Microsoft is not about to adopt the Open Source Development Model. boborooster also does not see this happening. Maybe not unless Microsoft's "mindshare" and profits really go down precipitously. Mahatma Gandhi's renown quote "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" seems to apply here. Perhaps Microsoft will have to strengthen its above tactics to keep trying to fight the adoption of Open Source Software ?? |
| devnet Jul 31, 2006 7:53 AM EDT |
Quoting:That guy just doesn't get it. Can't we have a "personal killfile" option in lxer that lets me filter certain authors and make their articles magically disappear from the newswire list?I feel the same way on this. Starting with his "Warren Woodford" piece about GPL violations, I've seen an increased volume of sewage come from over yonder there. Makes me want to rm -rf SJVN articles |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 7:55 AM EDT |
devnet - Are you talking about generally, or this specific article? If this article, what about it has you up in arms? I don't get it. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 31, 2006 8:07 AM EDT |
Can't you guys just not read his articles? |
| devnet Jul 31, 2006 8:34 AM EDT |
Just the pure attitude shelacked throughout the article. The sage-like, "I know everything" attitude puts it a step above an editorial. Editorials are done in the tone "this is my opinion". His articles are done in the tone "This is how it is because I know all, see all, and sense all and because I said it". So in this case, it's my personal preference. My responses to his GPL nonsense was actual debate. |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 8:48 AM EDT |
Well, that's certainly your privilege to dislike his style. Personally, I dislike opinion pieces that say "It's only my opinion." They tend to come off weak. Take a look at newspaper editorial writers -- a form and forum that is nothing but opinion -- and I think you will find that: 1. The writers simply assert their opinions, knowing that the context makes clear that that's what they're doing, and 2 If a writer says "It's only my opinion", careful parsing will show that he is actually using it as a technique to break down your defenses and emphasize the importance of his point. SVN did a bit of that himself, with this paragraph: Quoting: Yes, I know I sound like a crackpot to some of you, since most of you are reading this on a Windows-based PC. But, consider if you will, just how late Microsoft always is with its software releases. Think about how Microsoft applications are known for having all the security of an open door. Contemplate how Linux is chewing away at the server market and starting to become a real player on the desktop. Finally, let's not forget that Apple, with its new Intel-based Macs has come back from its near-death desktop experience to starting to gain desktop popularity again. |
| jimf Jul 31, 2006 9:18 AM EDT |
> Personally, I dislike opinion pieces that say "It's only my opinion." If you say 'I dislike', don't we know that it's you 'personally' :D Actually, the rule of thumb is that, if you haven't quoted source, it's your opinion that backs the piece anyway. |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 9:22 AM EDT |
jimf - Yup. Kind of like watching a baseball game on TV. If the announcer says, "He stole second," he doesn't follow up by saying, "Don't worry, the base is still there. He didn't really steal it, he just ran over to it while nobody was looking. More like trespassing." |
| devnet Jul 31, 2006 10:10 AM EDT |
I stole second base when I was in T-Ball. I'll never give it back copper!!! |
| tuxchick2 Jul 31, 2006 10:22 AM EDT |
Amateur. I stole home, and I'm not sorry. |
| dinotrac Jul 31, 2006 10:52 AM EDT |
******* S I G H !!! ******** |
| devnet Jul 31, 2006 11:28 AM EDT |
tuxchick, No wonder I couldn't find my way back to it after T-Ball practice. And I thought my family just moved...but you stole it! I'll trade ya for second >:) |
| jimf Jul 31, 2006 11:40 AM EDT |
> I'll trade ya for second Home is worth way more that 2nd. You're really gonna have to give her something good :D |
| tuxchick2 Jul 31, 2006 11:45 AM EDT |
I've been wanting a nice new blade cluster. Nothing fancy, just redudant hot-swappable everything. And a T-3 to my house. |
| jimf Jul 31, 2006 11:51 AM EDT |
I think devnet will just have to keep wandering the earth :( |
| devnet Jul 31, 2006 12:09 PM EDT |
I could give her a windowsr3fund *snicker* |
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