French consumer group files complaints against HP
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| henke54 Dec 16, 2006 11:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:A French consumer group has filed three lawsuits against Hewlett-Packard Co. and two electronics retailers concerning the sale of computers with preloaded software. HP's consumer PC offerings are sold with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows OS, said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France.http://www.itworld.com/Comp/1214/061215frenchhp/ |
| dcparris Dec 16, 2006 11:54 AM EDT |
Well, naturally, if consumers want PCs that work, then it only makes sense to drop the license deals with Microsoft and sell GNU/Linux. Which car maker was it that nearly went out of business for selling cars that worked too good? I think that's why the big retailers sell Windows pre-installed. Let's face it, you get paid a lot more when the customer is paying something like $50/hour for tech support because WIndows blue-screened on them when they pressed the start button. Or as in my case, where the printer driver could not be extracted. You don't even have to solve the problem, just charge $50/hour, with a 30-minute minimum fee to troubleshoot, and then the customers runs out of money and you're just not able to help. So you say, when you get more money, we'll see if we can solve this problem for you. |
| schestowitz Dec 16, 2006 1:04 PM EDT |
Gates would like everyone to believe that 'naked' PC's just have some light blinkings (or are destined to have pirated copies of Microsoft's Malware). Never mind the ease of installing Linux and the variety... the choice... when setting up a machine for personal purposes. Keep up the good work, Don. Your work is exceptionally helpful to Freedom. |
| herzeleid Dec 16, 2006 1:47 PM EDT |
HP is FUDding away furiously on this one, but I'll play along - Sure, consumers expect products that work - just like they expect cars to work. But we prefer to choose our own brand of gasoline, thanks. We don't need some stupid contract that says we can only use texaco gasoline, and a warranty that is voided if we dare to use some other brand of fuel. |
| jimf Dec 16, 2006 3:06 PM EDT |
> our own brand of gasoline I like that analogy... :) Since an x86 computer will easily run with several other types of available OSs, I can't see where they are getting this 'integral' thing. An eve better one might be the type and brand of oil. No one gripes if you spec it from the dealers with synthetic rather than petroleum. |
| dinotrac Dec 16, 2006 3:41 PM EDT |
> our own brand of gasoline >I like that analogy... :) Gasoline is fuel, and hence more analogous to electricity than an OS. The electronic engine control systems in cars are more analogous to the OS on a computer and I am not aware of any new cars sold without them. |
| jimf Dec 16, 2006 4:28 PM EDT |
> The electronic engine control systems in cars are more analogous to the OS on a computer and I am not aware of any new cars sold without them. True, but there is only one engine control system available. That isn't true with an x86 computer. At very least Compaq should give you a choice. |
| pat Dec 16, 2006 4:34 PM EDT |
Analogy? How about a lamp. Lamp's are pretty worthless without light bulbs, even though they don't come with them. |
| dinotrac Dec 16, 2006 5:09 PM EDT |
>True, but there is only one engine control system available. Sorry, not true. And, even if the hardware were the same, the programming is not. |
| jimf Dec 16, 2006 5:24 PM EDT |
> Sorry, not true.
> And, even if the hardware were the same, the programming is not. The blackbox is pretty much always the same for a given model, although I'll give you that the programming may be different. Sorry, but I'm not getting your point. Or are you just being crabby tonight? I should have stayed with the gas analogy even if it isn't perfect ;-). |
| dinotrac Dec 16, 2006 6:26 PM EDT |
>The blackbox is pretty much always the same for a given model,
Because a given model is made by a given manufacturer. The programming, however, is more interesting...and, in fact, there have been businesses built around re-programming the things with chip transplants. Don't know if they're still around, given EPA regulations, and all, but .... The point is that your analogy is just plain wrong. The closest analogy, the programming in the engine control systems, argues against you because auto manufacturers do indeed provide that. Gasoline, like electricity, is a consumable. Unless they've figured out how to get 100k miles from a tank of gas, the car companies couldn't provide all you need no matter how hard they try. |
| jimf Dec 16, 2006 6:38 PM EDT |
point taken, but this is a stupid conversation... ;-) |
| herzeleid Dec 16, 2006 8:48 PM EDT |
The whole point of the gasoline discussion was not to present a perfect analogy, but to attempt to explain by way of illustration that there is no need for x86 computer hardware to be explicitly tied to a specific operating system from a specific vendor. Anyone who claims that such a machine won't function unless it has a microsoft pc operating system on it is either dishonest or clueless - either way, it's unacceptable to the French government, and I for one applaud their stand. All analogies are flawed, and quibbling about the aptness of a particular analogy is perhaps a waste of time - best to try to get past that, and grasp the underlying principle. |
| dinotrac Dec 16, 2006 10:58 PM EDT |
> there is no need for x86 computer hardware to be explicitly tied to a specific operating system from a specific vendor. No, that wasn't the proposition for which it was put forth. The proposition was to negate HP's claim that they need to sell working computers. That, incidentally, is different from tying the hardware to a specific OS. To my knowledge, HP computers run Linux and FreeBSD just fine. You must admit, that a computer without an OS tends to be pretty useless. Personally, It wouldn't bother me to see every HP, Dell, whatever go out the door with the same OS -- Linux. |
| herzeleid Dec 17, 2006 12:05 AM EDT |
Quoting:dinotrac: No, that wasn't the proposition for which it was put forth. The proposition was to negate HP's claim that they need to sell working computers.Let's look at what the HP wonk said: Quoting: HP's consumer PC offerings are sold with Microsoft Corp.'s Windows OS, said Alain Spitzmuller, legal affairs director for HP France.In other words, they are going to sell the computer purchaser a copy of microsoft windoze whether or not it is wanted. I'm aware that the free unices run well on x86 hardware, but what is at issue here is that if I buy an x86 system, it is unacceptable to be forced to buy an unwanted and unneeded copy of a microsoft peecee OS. |
| dinotrac Dec 17, 2006 3:25 AM EDT |
>In other words, they are going to sell the computer purchaser a copy of microsoft windoze whether or not it is wanted. Agreed. I also agree that it would be preferable to sell bare-bones machines, or, at the very least, offer the choice of OS. My earlier discussion was not a defense of HP, but a specific response to the analogy: Quoting: Sure, consumers expect products that work - just like they expect cars to work. But we prefer to choose our own brand of gasoline, thanks. |
| jimf Dec 17, 2006 3:41 AM EDT |
> All analogies are flawed, and quibbling about the aptness of a particular analogy is perhaps a waste of time - best to try to get past that, and grasp the underlying principle. Ya think :) |
| jdixon Dec 17, 2006 5:18 AM EDT |
> Personally, It wouldn't bother me to see every HP, Dell, whatever go out the door with the same OS -- Linux. You know as well as I do that they would ship with Linspire. :( |
| Scott_Ruecker Dec 17, 2006 6:05 AM EDT |
>You know as well as I do that they would ship with Linspire. :( Which would serve to make them want to explore Linux even further. As much as some really do not like Linspire, I see them as just another variation on a theme. A Linux Theme. If every single Windows user tried Linspire first, it would just wet their appetite for more Linux and before they knew it they would have discovered and used more FOSS than they ever had before. Curiosity killed the cat, the cat being Windows in this case. |
| dinotrac Dec 17, 2006 7:07 AM EDT |
> All analogies are flawed, and quibbling about the aptness of a particular analogy is perhaps a waste of time - best to try to get past that, and grasp the underlying principle. Not a waste of time at all. An apt analogy can often cut like a knife through the fog of confusion. The problem in this case was not a flawed analogy, but an inapt one. |
| Abe Dec 17, 2006 8:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:Not a waste of time at all. An apt analogy can often cut like a knife through the fog of confusion. The problem in this case was not a flawed analogy, but an inapt one.Very true, but there are a lot more of bad analogies than good ones. Quoting:point taken, but this is a stupid conversation... ;-)Yes it is. The issue is making PC available to consumers with pre-installed Linux. Let us look at the facts: - HP does have desktops that run Linux, as a matter of fact, all the desktops I have at home (5 desktops and one laptop) all run Linux. The only problem is, they all are corporate desktops not ones that HP sells to individual consumers. - On HP web site, now a days, you will find corporate desktops that are available come with Windows pre-installed, none with Linux pre-installed. They used to have them with Suse at one time, but not any more. - Currently, you can purchase a corporate desktop models on the HP web site without any OS (or Free DOS for $1) with exactly the same configurations as the ones with pre-installed, but ~$130. less. See links http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/MiddleFrame.asp?page=config... http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/MiddleFrame.asp?page=config... - I am sure, if you intend to purchase a large number of desktops/laptops, HP will pre-install Linux. The issue is, what corporation is stupid enough to do that. What HP ought to do is, make their individual consumer desktops/laptops available with Linux pre-installed. Currently, there isn't enough large demand for that, but it is coming. HP would be very smart if they make them available because it would help flourish Linux and HP would be ahead of other OEMs and would be a marketing advantage especially when they are ~$130. cheaper. |
| dinotrac Dec 17, 2006 8:33 AM EDT |
Abe - I can sort of understand shipping consumer computers to retail stores with Windows installed, especially the case with big box stores. It might even make more sense (and lower prices) to send them all out with Windows installed and a Linux install disk inside the box for those who don't want Windows. Don't know, haven't seen the numbers. But... I have a much harder time understanding the logic on web site orders, where machines are built to spec and not stocked up. If HP sells Linux boxes to corporate America, they have already done a certain amount of homework. Might as well leverage it. |
| Abe Dec 17, 2006 9:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:with Windows installed and a Linux install disk inside the box for those who don't want Windows.I like this idea very much, I haven't thought about this way. It could be a good midway for OEMs to test the waters with and get a good feel on how Linux could do. It also doesn't cost them anything (Kubuntu CD would be a good candidate) other than MS getting pretty mad at them and might cost them some perks. Quoting:Might as well leverage it.The companion CD could be a very good start. If HP has a little sense, they would start a program and I doubt it violates any of their agreements and no matter what the consequences from MS. It is obvious now that MS lash back at OEMs is steadily diminishing. Isn't this better than arguing about analogies!!? lol |
| herzeleid Dec 17, 2006 10:11 AM EDT |
Quoting: abe: - I am sure, if you intend to purchase a large number of desktops/laptops, HP will pre-install Linux. The issue is, what corporation is stupid enough to do that.You're asking what corporation is stupid enough to order a large number of linux boxes? Pray elaborate, this should make for some hilarity... |
| Abe Dec 17, 2006 10:24 AM EDT |
Quoting:You're asking what corporation is stupid enough to order a large number of linux boxes?My bad. What I meant is no corp. would order a large number of desktops Pre-Installed/Pre-configured Linux because they pretty much will wipe them out and install their own favorite distro with their preferred business suitable configurations. Pre-installing Linux by the OEM would cost money and consequently corp. would save more by not having any OS installed. That is contrary to Windows installed desktops where you have to pay MS tax no matter what. |
| herzeleid Dec 17, 2006 11:57 AM EDT |
Quoting: Abe: What I meant is no corp. would order a large number of desktops Pre-Installed/Pre-configured Linux because they pretty much will wipe them out and install their own favorite distro with their preferred business suitable configurations.Ah, that makes more sense - I agree, I'd probably wipe out any vendor installed linux and set up my own distro and configuration of choice - still, a machine from the vendor with e.g. freespire, ubuntu etc pre-installed would be perfect, even if I'm going to wipe the disk and install e.g. suse, because #1, I'm not paying for a copy of some lame peecee OS from microsoft, and #2, it shows that linux runs on that hardware. |
| rijelkentaurus Dec 17, 2006 2:25 PM EDT |
>#1, I'm not paying for a copy of some lame peecee OS from microsoft, and #2, it shows that linux runs on that hardware. Two points that OEMs should pay attention to. It's why machines from the likes of System76 are so attractive. I have no intention of using Ubuntu on them, I'll load them with PCLOS, but if Ubuntu runs on it, then PCLOS will run on it. This is far more important for laptops than desktops, but it's still important for both. |
| dinotrac Dec 17, 2006 3:22 PM EDT |
>It's why machines from the likes of System76 are so attractive If people would buy more Linux boxes instead of whining about HP and Dell, then HP and Dell would offer more Linux boxes. |
| herzeleid Dec 17, 2006 6:19 PM EDT |
Quoting: If people would buy more Linux boxes instead of whining about HP and Dell, then HP and Dell would offer more Linux boxes.I take issue with your characterization of the legitimate concerns of linux users as "whining". That does seem rather a jaundiced view of things after all. You seem to make the assumption that one can not simultaneously express a legitimate concern, and buy microsoft-free computers, but it's not an either/or proposition. Trust me, I buy microsoft-free boxes every time, and still have time to express my disapproval of the kind of rotten deal where HP wants to force feed me microsoft if I buy a computer from them. I'm not a microsoft customer. I have no intention, desire or need to become a microsoft customer, and I will not pay for an unwanted copy of a microsoft operating system. I'm not the only one. How hard is that for a hardware vendor to grasp? No, wait, I know the answer: Quoting: It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding itWith apologies to Upton Sinclair. |
| dinotrac Dec 18, 2006 5:52 AM EDT |
>You seem to make the assumption that one can not simultaneously express a legitimate concern, and buy microsoft-free computers, but it's not an either/or proposition. I make no such assumption. I just have a very hard time respecting people who want to run somebody else's business for them while lacking the personal character to make hard choices for themselves. If HP or Dell doesn't offer a computer with the OS you want -- DON'T BUY IT! If you want the HP or Dell more than you care about the OS, don't whine about the way HP or Dell sells their machines. |
| herzeleid Dec 18, 2006 7:47 AM EDT |
Quoting: dinotrac: if you want the HP or Dell more than you care about the OS, don't whine about the way HP or Dell sells their machines.Again, I take issue with your hostile characterization of linux users as whiners. The last time I checked, it was perfectly acceptable to have preferences about items that we purchase. Without making our preferences known, how do we as customers send feedback to the vendors? Are you implying that we should all just shut up and be good little consumers? |
| dinotrac Dec 18, 2006 7:56 AM EDT |
>Again, I take issue with your hostile characterization of linux users as whiners. I have never characterized linux users as whiners. I have characterized people who buy HP or Dell and then complain because the product they bought was configured in a way they didn't like but knew about before hand as whiners. Lots of linux users don't do that. Lots of linux users don't buy Microsoft OS's just to save a few dollars on a poorly made PC. >Are you implying that we should all just shut up and be good little consumers Being good consumers means understanding the power you hold. Buying Windows when you want Linux is the best of all worlds for a PC maker. Why does Dell need to support Linux or offer Linux boxes if Linux users will buy Dells anyway and do the software load themselves? Sounds more like people are being your "good little consumers" when they buy from a vendor even when that vendor refuses to offer them what they want. Scratch that -- not good little consumers. Stupid ones. |
| dcparris Dec 18, 2006 8:19 AM EDT |
herzeleid, I gotta admit, dino is one of the good guys. dino hasn't attacked the GNU/Linux community at all. He's basically saying that we should put our money where our mouths are. If we want GNU/Linux pre-installed, buy from someone who sells boxes that way. We just need to understand that Dell & HP will continue selling boxes without GNU/Linux as long as we keep buying them. It's all well and good to complain about Dell & HP, but there are numerous other vendors out there from which to choose. So instead of worrying, complaining, whining, or whatever term you prefer to use, about Dell & HP, just pick from the others instead. Sounds like dino is saying people should find a serious GNU/Linux vendor, if that's what they really want. |
| jimf Dec 18, 2006 8:38 AM EDT |
> people should find a serious GNU/Linux vendor, if that's what they really want. Those of us who build our own, know that Dell and HP usually build a very mediocre PC. While, at least IMO, building is the best way to get quality, there are many smaller shops that produce very decent results. The database on this site lists more than a few of them. |
| tuxchick Dec 18, 2006 9:16 AM EDT |
I vote for both whining and smart shopping. Vendors won't know what we want if we don't tell them. Customer pressure does make a difference. When you're up against bureauratic behemoths like HP and Dell who have entered into unholy alliances with the Great Satan Microsoft, change is very slow. But it costs nothing to send them a cheery "hey, you lost another sale because of your silly policy" communique. |
| dinotrac Dec 18, 2006 9:35 AM EDT |
>I vote for both whining and smart shopping. Then it's no longer whining, it's consumer feedback. To me, it is very different to tell a vendor why you will not consider their product than it is to buy their product and whine because you didn't like the very thing you chose to buy - not to mention the utter lack of incentive such a move provides. Consumer feedback, backed with a willingness to demonstrate potential profits by dropping dollars/euros/yen/goat cheese with another vendor can speak volumes. |
| herzeleid Dec 18, 2006 10:01 AM EDT |
Quoting: herzeleid, I gotta admit, dino is one of the good guys. dino hasn't attacked the GNU/Linux community at all. He's basically saying that we should put our money where our mouths are.Gosh I know that, and hopefully dino knows that I know - I was just nitpicking his choice of terms. All I'm saying is that we can make informed choices *and* complain to the recalcitrant vendors - it's not an exclusive or, it's an inclusive or. I will buy boxes from e.g. the local PC club, since they gladly build boxes without windoze, and deduct the price of windoze, and then I'll tell my dell or hp salesman why they lost the sale. |
| dinotrac Dec 18, 2006 11:26 AM EDT |
herzeleid... 1. Yes, I knew that, and 2. >I will buy boxes from e.g. the local PC club, since they gladly build boxes without windoze, and deduct the price of windoze, and then I'll tell my dell or hp salesman why they lost the sale. As I wrote in agreement with the Tux Goddess, that ain't whining. |
| herzeleid Dec 18, 2006 11:33 AM EDT |
Quoting: dinotrac: As I wrote in agreement with the Tux Goddess, that ain't whining.Well in that case, we're all on the same page! |
| tuxchick Dec 18, 2006 11:38 AM EDT |
Nah, I think you're all full of it. There, I slayed the lot o ye with devasting logic. |
| jdixon Dec 18, 2006 12:03 PM EDT |
> There, I slayed the lot o ye with devasting logic. Insert dramatic death scene for "What's Opera, Doc?" here. :) |
| dinotrac Dec 18, 2006 12:24 PM EDT |
>There, I slayed the lot o ye with devasting logic. And even more devastating spelling! |
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