warning will rogers
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jimf Feb 11, 2007 2:52 PM EDT |
All of you running Debian beyond stable need to remember that the repos will become 'very' volatile when etch goes into stable. Now is the time to be conservative. watch those upgrades. |
| bigg Feb 11, 2007 4:05 PM EDT |
> watch those upgrades As a Debian user of less than two months, I don't know what to watch for. Should I stop upgrading? I've got Etch on four machines, meaning it could be a disaster. |
| jimf Feb 11, 2007 4:28 PM EDT |
If you get a 'really big' upgradable coming into testing, that's probably a good indicator that etch has gone stable. Until then, I'd not do a dist upgrade.... just frequent upgrades on what comes into testing. I'm assuming that your sources.list is set for testing rather than etch. If it's set to etch, remember that you'll just move into stable Debian, and testing get's renamed from etch to something else (I forget what)... |
| bigg Feb 11, 2007 4:37 PM EDT |
Thanks - I've got them set to etch rather than testing. |
| jimf Feb 11, 2007 4:42 PM EDT |
Shouldn't be a problem then. Ha... Is sposed to go to 'Lenny' After the changeover, you may want to reset to that, but wait a while for it to settle down. Also, contact me and I can give you a good list of repos for your sources.list. |
| dinotrac Feb 11, 2007 7:17 PM EDT |
Ummmm..... Hate to be an old stick in the mud, but that's "Warning, Will Robinson", not "Warning, Will Rogers." Admittedly, somebody should have warned Rogers not to take off with Wiley Post in the plane that killed him, but the line is from "Lost in Space". |
| jimf Feb 11, 2007 8:12 PM EDT |
pickey, pickey... ;-) |
| cr Feb 11, 2007 8:23 PM EDT |
"I'm a space cowboy; bet you weren't ready for that..." --Steve Miller Band |
| jimf Feb 11, 2007 8:53 PM EDT |
I'm never ready for sreve miller :P |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 11, 2007 9:38 PM EDT |
I got my sources.list set to testing, not etch. So I presume I'm good? |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 11, 2007 10:15 PM EDT |
>I got my sources.list set to testing, not etch. So I presume I'm good? I hope so because that is what I have mine set too. :-) Then again I went into experimental long enough to get KDE 3.5.6 and I somehow un-installed Synaptic. Jimf helped me get it back before I freaked out about having a borked install. Actually, I started freaking out right away but don't tell anybody. ;-) |
| jdixon Feb 12, 2007 3:21 AM EDT |
> but that's "Warning, Will Robinson" Actually, wasn't it "Danger, Will Robinson"? From, memory, the robot's general alarm was "Warning, warning, warning,..."; but when he was with Will, it was "Danger, Will Robinson". Yes, I've spent far too many hours watching sci-fi on television. :) |
| tracyanne Feb 12, 2007 4:22 AM EDT |
quote:: Yes, I've spent far too many hours watching sci-fi on television. :) ::quote Really, really bad sci-fi. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 12, 2007 6:07 AM EDT |
Ok, folks. Quick hint for using Debian. Right now, "Testing" points to the archive directory "Etch". "Stable" points to "Sarge", "Unstable" points to "Sid". Testing = Etch Stable = Sarge Unstable = Sid When Etch becomes the new Stable, then the symbolic links will be changed: Testing=??? Stable = Etch Unstable = Sid (unstable always points to sid. Sid breaks all his toys.) What that means is, if you have your /etc/apt/sources.list pointed to "testing"... deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ testing main non-free contrib ...or "stable"... deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ stable main non-free contrib ...then when Etch is released you're going to be in a world of hurt. "Testing" will go into a period of complete chaos, and "Stable" will get have a nearly complete change in packages from one day to the next, an upgrade that I would not want to do without preparation and forethought. Please, please, change your pointers to match the _name_ of the release you want to use. Unless it's "unstable", which I use, which doesn't change in such large massive sudden waves. Just little waves which mean random things break once in a while. On "Skiffy", I was so very happy to see Farscape. Good skiffy is hard to find. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 12, 2007 6:56 AM EDT |
Quoting:Testing=??? That will be Lenny. But, since there isn't a Lenny created yet, where will the big changes come from? From what I can tell, it's the folk with 'stable' and 'unstable' who will get hit hard. 'stable' will suddently get all of Etch (ouch) and unstable will get everything from experimental that is awaiting Etch's release, such GNOME 2.16. From my recollection of the Debian freeze process, everything not suitable for Etch should go in experimental and not in unstable. There should still be the 2-10 days of relative bugfree-ness between unstable and testing. |
| dinotrac Feb 12, 2007 7:16 AM EDT |
>Actually, wasn't it "Danger, Will Robinson"? I stand corrected, lambasted, and subjected to countless episodes of Dr. Smith's schemes. |
| tuxchick Feb 12, 2007 7:36 AM EDT |
And no picky grammarians noticed 'pickey'? Just can't find good nitpickers anymore. |
| jimf Feb 12, 2007 8:44 AM EDT |
> From what I can tell, it's the folk with 'stable' and 'unstable' who will get hit hard. 'stable' will suddently get all of Etch (ouch) As I say, it will be pretty obvious. Just don't do anything foolish :) Actually, I'd assume that people in 'stable' will 'want to' upgrade to etch. Everyone else, just hang tight. |
| jdixon Feb 12, 2007 9:39 AM EDT |
> Really, really bad sci-fi. Which reminds me that I've still got to convert our Blake's 7 tapes over to DVD. Though Blake's 7 is actually pretty good as far as TV sci-fi goes. |
| jimf Feb 12, 2007 9:52 AM EDT |
Ok, OK... Uncle!... I was in a hurry, and, I screwed up. Being a Sci- Fi fan from way back, I knew that it should'a been Will Robinson... I apoligize to Dino, TC and all the other picayune's of the world.. You are all wonderful nitpickers ;-). |
| dcparris Feb 12, 2007 10:05 AM EDT |
Actually, we felt privileged to watch Dr. Smith and the Robinsons. It came on right after Rin Tin Tin. And even bad sci-fi beats beats bell bottoms. At least not everything about the '70's was horrible (mostly just the clothes). As for the Debian releases, I need to make sure my sources.list points to Etch, and then do what when? Dino, You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. I wouldn't say that you're an old stick in the mud. Old, for sure. But a stick in the mud? :-p |
| cr Feb 12, 2007 11:02 AM EDT |
> On "Skiffy", I was so very happy to see Farscape. Good skiffy is hard to find. Skiffy? Skiffy? You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately. Thank you. Report for e-grooving. |
| Aladdin_Sane Feb 12, 2007 11:44 AM EDT |
> As for the Debian releases, I need to make sure my sources.list points to
> Etch, and then do what when? Bob's hint above was I thought, excellent. The way I see it, it is your choice. Me, I name sid as my main dist, and testing as secondary: I personally do not want stable whether it is sarge or etch. Others may want to follow etch as it moves from testing to stable, so they name etch in their sources.list, instead of testing. It ends up being very flexible. As to "new testing," Lenny, it will start as a clone of the current unstable/sid. All about changeovers is specified in the Debian manuals at http://www.debian.org/devel/, which is, coincidentally, one of my recent studies. See, for example, http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ch-resources.... for more info. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 12, 2007 1:10 PM EDT |
Thank you, Aladdin, very kind of you. For those who use Sarge or Etch right _now_, I recommend staying with them, by NAME, through the release of Etch. The Debian release team usually posts instructions/caveats after the release of a new "stable" concerning upgrading from one stable to the next. This is, actually, one of the major tasks for the release team, finding out how to do it so that it doesn't wreck everything. Sarge will continue to get security fixes for several months after the release of Etch, to give everyone time to decide what to do. And of course, perfectly working servers and other machines which you do not want to upgrade can simply be left running. Why mess with what is already working perfectly well? |
| dcparris Feb 12, 2007 2:48 PM EDT |
I got most of it. But with similar comments, sometimes things get a little confusing. ;-) Maybe I'm just getting old myself. I guess I was trying to clarify that, as long as my sources.list was set for Etch, I should be o.k. But leaving it pointed at testing will lead to lots of heartache. |
| azerthoth Feb 12, 2007 3:05 PM EDT |
To stay with a release you have to do it by name, etch or sarge. To stay with a branch you also have to do it by name, these however dont change. Branch's have the names stable, testing or unstable (aka sid). Etch will become the next stable release, currently it is the testing branch which has been frozen in preperation for etch to become the stable release. Once it does then etch and testing will no longer point to the same repository and a huge backlog of packages slated to go from unstable/sid will slam into the testing branch like a truck however it will not effect the etch release. At this moment, unless you know what your doing check your sources.list and make sure you are pointing to Etch and not testing. That will land you with the next stable release when all is said and done. |
| dcparris Feb 12, 2007 3:58 PM EDT |
Well, I'll be sure everything points at Etch. This is my first experience with the Debian release system. /me grabs hold of hat, and bull by horns, prepares for fun ride. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 13, 2007 5:43 AM EDT |
I'm going to chance it and hang on to testing. I don't want to go stable with etch but I want the latest and greatest (but not as unstable as sid). I'll just cross my fingers then. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 13, 2007 11:29 AM EDT |
Seriously, Sander, don't. Don't point to "testing" through the release of Etch. When Etch goes "stable", "testing" will go into a state of complete chaos. Actual functionality is not ensured _at_all_, for an indeterminant period of time. Stick with "Etch" in your /etc/apt/sources.list for at least a couple of _months_ after the release. Your software will not be stale by any rational measure in that time, and there are always "backports" if something important does change substantially. Consider this fair warning. I've been there myself, once, because no one told me about this massive instability that testing goes through. If you choose to stand in front of a train, don't be surprised when it hits you. I'll also take this opportunity to say that Sid is not all that unstable, and fixing the occasional problem has taught me a great deal about things like network drivers and Xwindows than I would have otherwise known. I consider it my Linux education. |
| Aladdin_Sane Feb 13, 2007 5:38 PM EDT |
> Seriously, Sander, don't. Don't point to "testing" through the release of Etch. Agreed. Those of us using sid/unstable do not have this worry. But we "unstablers" do have to accept the consequences at any time of the day or night. (udev is very badly broken in sid/unstable at the moment, install apt-listbugs if you hadn't heard about it.) However, if your "main" or "primary" dist is _not_ sid/unstable, then testing needs to be avoided for a few months. As a Debian user since 1998, I can see the same train rolling in that Bob sees. Definitely, this is a learning opportunity. Fortunately, simply changing any aliases in sources.list from "testing" to "etch" should avoid most of the turmoil. An excellent design decision in Debian, I think. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 13, 2007 10:49 PM EDT |
But what is the best way to catch up afterwards then? As I said, I have little interest in going stable. Or should I upgrade to sid? |
| Aladdin_Sane Feb 14, 2007 12:08 AM EDT |
> But what is the best way to catch up afterwards then? My own, very humble opinion, is that after "following" Etch to Stable, you wait a few months for the "adjustments" to die down, then simply add Lenny/Testing to your sources.list. APT will take care of the rest: [#]>apt-get clean && apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade should do it just fine. (We hope, all this is future speculation, but based on experience.) There are intricate settings in APT for fine-grained control, but this this is not the time to go there. For reference, see "4.6.4 Distributions" at http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ch-resources.... and especially "4.6.4.2 More information about the testing distribution." The Reference Manual also has a chapter called, "5.13 The testing distribution" at http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ch-pkgs.en.ht... that might help. Finally, a summary of how the Testing Genesis works is at 'Debian “testing” distribution', http://www.debian.org/devel/testing. My big discovery along this path of study: Debian seems to use the terms "Developer" and "Maintainer" interchangeably; so any time you want to do maintenance on a Debian install, you can think of yourself as a developer, and reference that documentation to your benefit. Mostly, I'm just in it for the flame wars... |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 15, 2007 6:35 AM EDT |
I concur, with a caveat:The automatic package _removal_ that "apt-get dist-upgrade" entails can cause confusion. Once the change of /etc/apt/sources.list to "lenny" instead of "etch" is done, I would fire up synaptic or one of the other apt front-ends rather than doing it by automagical script. A good hard look at what is going to change will allow for keeping ones eyes open. ...but then, I use dselect. I like seeing what is going to happen first, have some control, or even just the ability to scream "NO!" and CTRL-C out of dselect without saving and thus nothing changes. This has been a good thing even in Unstable once in a while, such as when only half the KDE packages have been updated and they conflict with the other half but don't have required dependencies in place so it would have erased it all... Regardless, even though you can always use a KNOPPIX disk or other live CD if something goes terribly wrong (and nothing has ever gone that wrong for me), make sure you do your backups first. Everything in /home and /etc, so you can get your settings back easily if the poop really hits the platter. Flame wars? What flamewars? Hehehe. Heck, even my own little email .sig has set off two different flame wars in debian-user since I put it in place on September 12th, 2001... |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 15, 2007 12:28 PM EDT |
I always have good backups of my machine. See: http://www.jejik.com/articles/2006/07/easy_local_and_remote_... That way my machine is always automagically backed up at every reboot or shutdown. PS I took the advice and switched to etch. |
| DarrenR114 Feb 15, 2007 12:37 PM EDT |
sander, The link to your article is broken. I took out the %20 from the URL and did get to the article: http://www.jejik.com/articles/2006/07/easy_local_and_remote_... (note to all readers: it's doing the same thing to the above link also - I've tried to fix it a few times) You might want to include something about using cron. There's a bit about this at Mad Penguin: http://madpenguin.org/cms/index.php/?m=show&id=1505 Overall, I'd say it was a good tip, and you should submit it as a tutorial to LXer.com |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 16, 2007 2:27 AM EDT |
Here's a TinyURL to the article: http://tinyurl.com/z5543 Darren, I purposely didn't use cron on my desktop. My desktop isn't always on. I don't want anacron slowing down my boot with a backup just because I've been away from my PC. Similarly, I don't want my desktop to suddenly slow down because it's bacup time according to cron. That's why I symlinked it in rc0.d and rc6.d. I don't care how long my shutdown process is. I just hit the "shutdown" button and walk away from my PC. There is a tidbit in there about cron on the server. The weekly remote backup runs in /etc/cron.weekly which will execute it atomatically once a week. No need to mess around with crontab. Oh, and the article has been on LXer in the past (in June 2006), just not as a feature but as a link. See http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=65880 |
| DarrenR114 Feb 16, 2007 3:30 AM EDT |
Thanks! |
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