sounding an alarm over nothing
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Libervis Mar 15, 2007 6:44 AM EDT |
Sorry, but I am finding my disagreement with Helios deepening more and more recently. First he praises the WD201 document as if it is the script of salvation (literally, considering Helios' alarmist tone), and yet WD201 is not only failing to inspire a true implementation of it's plan (and instead has Linspire and ESR embracing non-free software business model cacuned within an incoming CNR.com service), but the whole plan misses a few points on its way to the conclusion that it has. It's not about plugging the holes with proprietary software. It is about pre-installing GNU/Linux on a massive number of computers (which can be done without proprietary software). Strike one! Helios failed me over this. He fell to the sensationalist allure of WD201 promising world domination if we do this or that. Right.. Second, now he talks about Ubuntu as a problem. I think he takes this too far. Ubuntu plays a role, and its role is to be the "emmisary" to the world outside of GNU/Linux. It's alright to shout that Ubuntu is not the only distribution of GNU/Linux and that there are choices, but I don't think it is alright to basically call Ubuntu a threat to diversity. Its vast popularity does not negate the existance of so many other distros, because so many other distros cover so many other needs and tastes that will always be there. Note also that Helios is an avid fan of PCLinuxOS since I've known about him, Lobby4Linux and his blog. The moment I saw him mention "Ubuntu" in this article I thought to myself "ahhh yeah.. because you can't stand PCLinuxOS not being the one in the limelight". It also reminded me of some rants devnet, another PCLinuxOS fan, had against Ubuntu's dominance. Well get over it. It's not what you think it is. Noone can kill the diversity in the Free Software world, not even Ubuntu. Why are you so paranoid about things you really ought not to be paranoid about. It's pointless. The real threat is still out there and that is Microsoft and its strategies.. why waste our breaths over this nonexistant issue? |
| Libervis Mar 15, 2007 7:04 AM EDT |
Meh, just read over some comments on that story and the way Helios responds to criticism.. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like what I see. Man, helios, you're really screwing this up for no good reason. :( On these comments alone you just potentially alienated two project leaders. Great job in stiring a yet another community divide over nothing. |
| jimf Mar 15, 2007 7:23 AM EDT |
> On these comments alone you just potentially alienated two project leaders. Great job in stiring a yet another community divide over nothing. Even with my reservations about Shuttlesworth's 'vision' of the world, I have to agree. |
| number6x Mar 15, 2007 8:02 AM EDT |
I've got issues with Ubuntu, but I know that they are based on my experience with debian.
I find it frustrating when Ubuntu behaves differently from debian, when it is so similar.
This frustration is completely my own fault and not Ubuntu's. For the last few years Red Hat was the point of entry for most first time Linux users. Red Hat's server-centric distro was a large barrier to many non-technical first time users. I started with Slackware floppies. In those days non-technical Linux users were almost non-existent. I think Ubuntu is a great entry point for non-technical users. The distro is friendly and not overwhelming. The community is friendly and supportive of newcomers. Ubuntu may not be my cup of tea, but I think it will get a lot of first users interested in Linux. They may switch to other distros later on. If Helios or devnet or Texstar had Mark Shuttleworth's billions, PCLOS might be where Ubuntu is today. If Warren Woodford had the billions, Ubuntu might be a Mepis based distro. As it is, Ubuntu has the financial support to help define and support a community through the first lean years. In the end it is a community, so helping to add to Ubuntu will benefit all Linux users. |
| tuxtom Mar 15, 2007 8:31 AM EDT |
Oh, if only Warren had the billions. Sigh... |
| azerthoth Mar 15, 2007 8:34 AM EDT |
Helios, I tend to agree with you on alot of what you write and opinions you choose to share with us. The question I have to pose to you though would you be railing against a different distro were it to be the one putting a definitive face to Linux? I agree with the fact that the Ubuntu folks are standing on the backs of others great works. This isnt a reason to rail against them though, because it is exactly what every other Linux distro is doing too. Its not the various *buntu's that get my dander up, although the 6000 variants that basicly only change the default wallpaper does get old, its the raving 2 week Ubuntu fanbois offering their support making finding good documentation a bit more difficult. Linux does need a "jump off" point for new users. I'm not exactly thrilled that Ubuntu seems to be that point because in honesty it isn't the most noob friendly distro available. What it does have going for it though is the fact that it IS based upon Debian, so that once someone gets their Linux groove on they have available a better and more dynamic distro that will be familiar to them. Sorry Helios, on this one I'm on the opposite side of the fence. That doesnt mean much though, as this is just one point (maybe two) out of a whole slew of points that I think you are dead on about. I dont expect to agree with my wife 100% either for that matter, and the offer of the free beer is still open the next time I get near your part of the country. |
| jimf Mar 15, 2007 9:40 AM EDT |
> Oh, if only Warren had the billions. Sigh... If you only knew... Thank God he doesn't ;-) |
| tuxchick Mar 15, 2007 1:08 PM EDT |
Warren who thinks the GPL is teh suck? err... |
| tracyanne Mar 15, 2007 1:44 PM EDT |
The problem, and the reason I see for Helios's rant, is that there are so many Distros, that are so much better than Ubuntu, and that includes Distros that now use Ubuntu as a base. Mandriva, Linpsire, Mepis, Xandros, PCLinuxOS, are all much better than the overrated Ubuntus. Ubuntu just goes to show how successful good marketing can be. People buy marketing not good. |
| azerthoth Mar 15, 2007 2:17 PM EDT |
I would include Sabayon in the better than *buntu list, even being Gentoo base. I'm also a fan of PCLinuxOS and have it on my laptop, my wifes laptop, and my mothers laptop. After looking at Sabayon though it was a really really hard choice and the final deciding factor was that I am less familiar with maintaining Gentoo than I am Mandriva/PClinuxOS. That aside, Ubuntu is over rated, however if it is bringing converts its all for the good. Otherwise its much like shooting the preacher because his offering absolution indicates that there is a sin that you might need to have forgiven. I dont have to like Ubuntu or the fact that I am a confessed sinner, I am a realist enough to accept both and occasionally use microsoft on top of all of it. |
| jdixon Mar 15, 2007 2:23 PM EDT |
> I dont have to like... the fact that I am a confessed sinner... and occasionally use microsoft on top of all of it. Isn't that sort of redundant? :) |
| Libervis Mar 15, 2007 2:23 PM EDT |
Well, Ubuntu is qualitatively maybe not the best, but it sure is good enough for many. Note also that Ubuntu didn't have to be absolutely the best of the pack to get where it is. Not only because of money and marketing, but because of an efficient organization behind it, Ubuntu succeeded. Not everyone pulls this off. Shuttleworth is a capable and determined enterpreneur and likely a very good organizer as such. He must be considering that he founded and later sold Thawte, was determined enough to go through the tough space training and go to orbit.. well.. not every distro has that kind of skill and determination behind it. Money and marketing sure play a role, but Ubuntu was just right from the get go, the right concept, the right philosophy, the right infrastructure, the organization and awesome lot of determination. It should probably be a 101 on planning and building a succesful distro project. Instead of griping over it, we should learn from it (except for their vague acceptance of proprietary bits ;) ). |
| tuxtom Mar 15, 2007 5:48 PM EDT |
Libervis: That's one of the few things you've written that I agree with you on 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you! tracyanne: I've been happy with Ubuntu as a base for MEPIS. Haven't used Ubuntu proper for a desktop (I've installed it several times, but I really don't like gnome at all), I've only used it for a few servers. I do like Fluxbuntu...a bit more under the hood than DSL. Not to denigrate their team, but Kubuntu didn't sit well with me. I've been really surprised by the backlash against Ubuntu in the past year or so. I think people just want to be exclusive and that once something gains popularity they suddenly don't want to be associated with it because it isn't 1337 anymore. Everyone wanted Linux to be successful, then when it is people are unhappy because it doesn't happen to be their pet distro...or they are tired of hearing of the success, tired of the very hype they helped create, tired of the flood of nubes that they ultimately invited. Then the attacks start and they start trying to blow holes in its credibility, nitpicking about pointless and academic details that really don't matter in the big picture. Yes, that's what I really think about it. |
| dcparris Mar 15, 2007 5:57 PM EDT |
The only real beef I have with Ubuntu is the plan to go farther than I care for to support non-libre codecs/drivers. Otherwise, I (a) like the distro just fine and (b) would love to see one or more of the top 20 distros become 'mainstream'. |
| tracyanne Mar 15, 2007 9:37 PM EDT |
My only beef with Ubuntu is that's it's simply not as good as it's popularity would warrant. My point is that Good marketing is what it takes to get you there. In a way my beef is also with my favourite distro (in case you don't know, that Mandriva), and all those other distros that are substantially better than Ubuntu, for not marketing themselves better, or coming together and marketing themselves collectively. Everybody seems to want to do their own thing - which is fine, but some things would be better if people worked collectively. Marketing, hardware support, tier one resellers (the community has demonstrated, and I hope to itself as well as DELL and the wider community, just what collective action can achieve with the DELL Idea Storm thing - there ya go my Socialist roots tromping all everyone's nice day, I'll stop now before the rant really gets started) |
| tuxtom Mar 15, 2007 10:23 PM EDT |
tracyanne: Good is a subjective word. Marketing is a frequently misused word. I don't get spam from from Ubuntu/Canonical, but I get it from RedHat...I even get telemarketing calls from RedHat. I don't see a lot of advertisements or get my PO BOX stuffed with glossies from Canonical...I do from RedHat. Popularity and media buzz != marketing. I hear a lot about Ubuntu, but I don't see a lot of true marketing. Am I mistaken that you are not in the US and probably get a different barrage of advertising than I do? I guess my RedHat is your Ubuntu. BTW: Mandrake was my desktop of choice until I found Mepis. I'd still use it, but I despise RPM and the new name is simply not good enough for me. I'm afraid I'd come home and find it had made a big mess all over my floor. ;-) |
| tracyanne Mar 15, 2007 11:10 PM EDT |
Canonical are much more subtle in how they market Ubuntu, than tradition marketing, like Red Hat, for example are indulging in. The postage paid give away CDs, for example, really get peoples attention, in ways that traditional marketing does not. Canonical have succeeded in making Ubuntu cool, or at least seem cool, in a very similar way to what Apple have done with the iPod, the've got the word of Mouth thing working really well, so people have got to try it, and as someone said it works well enough. Other things that Canonical have done is get the community thing, the forums, the help desk, on a professional footing right from the start, and Mark Shuttleworth is not backwards about using his "I've been into space" cred to the max. Marketing isn't really about advertising, although that is a component. Marketing is about being seen to be seen, it's about putting yourself or your product out there, and associating it with other desirable or cool things, it's about creating a perception. Canonical do this really well, and this is what drives Ubuntu's popularity, in the same way the the cool factor, the creation of an image - the perception of what the product is - that drives sales of the iPod. Other distributions, in spite of, for example a more polished and professional look, or easier management, or just more choice, get overlooked, they aren't out there, there's no image, no perception, of them as being cool, most people overlook them for that reason, I believe. |
| tracyanne Mar 15, 2007 11:11 PM EDT |
Even the multiple versions of Ubuntu are about keeping up the interest. Staying noticed. |
| dcparris Mar 16, 2007 8:29 AM EDT |
tuxtom: Have you never heard of "guerrilla marketing"? Marketing very much includes word-of-mouth campaigns, along with the kinds of things that tracyanne mentioned. It includes branding - something Canonical seems to understand very well. Marketing is not just about billboards, circulars and t.v. ads. |
| vorbote Mar 16, 2007 9:19 AM EDT |
tracyanne: No, the Ubuntu flavors are not the consequence of marketing. They are the consequence of pressure of the community and by the community; the marketing success of Ubuntu is that it was first of all, and continues to be to this day, an exercise on community building first and creating a GNU/Linux distro second. The original plan was to have only one distro spin, with a desktop based on GNOME, and let the users choose whatever desktop or window manager they would want if GNOME wasn't to their liking, by using the repositories. As dcparris points out to tuxtom, the success of Ubuntu is a classical case study of expectations marketing. You create an expectation, without pointing out to any product in particular, you just make the consumer aware of the deficiencies in the alternatives available in the market and then when people are ready to switch you present them with your product and they flock to it in droves. It doesn't need to be "superior", it just needs to give a better experience than its competitors and offer something unique; in the case of Ubuntu it was a community of real human beings willing to help each other, which you'll notice clearly if you browse the first two years of postings in the ubuntuforums.org database. Things have changed (for the worse, I might add) with the influx of new users of GNU/Linux; so much that many knowledgeable people have stepped back and even out. But it is still parsecs closer to the ideal than other communities out there I won't mention here that have already hit the lower bottom of the Styx. BTW, Mandriva, né Madrake, was a fork of RedHat (6 if memory serves). It was never a Debian derivative and it is not to this day, unless hell froze already and nobody has told me a thing. I should know, I used my first Linux (which wasn't particularly GNU then) during November 1991, having grabbed a copy from c.s.m while looking for a patch for perl... :-) |
| tuxtom Mar 16, 2007 9:33 AM EDT |
CD & Tracey: I understand your points about marketing...I am not that naive. The people using marketing as an excuse to hate Ubuntu are using it the same tone that they would use marketing as an excuse to hate Microsoft...and that isn't about guerilla marketing. In that respect, Ubuntu, Mepis, Linspire, Xandros, etc., are guerilla marketing for Debian. I guess I'm having a hard time undertanding why people are so jealous...which is exactly what I think the root of it is. How many other distributions have the done the same things and provided similar resources? I think a lot have aimed for Ubuntu's level of success and fallen way, way short. You have to be agile to be sucessful these days, and agile means being "just barely good enough". But is also means you can respond and deliver. Debian is definitely not agile, Ubuntu is. I think Ubuntu is giving all the other distros a kick in the butt and making them have to work quite a bit harder to stay sucessful. If you try to wait until things are perfect the entire world passes you by. The Linux community should be very proud of Ubuntu, whether they choose to use it themsleves of not. As far as technical superiority, or some other subjective evaluation, let me use an analogy, twisted as it may be: There are thousands of musicians that are more talented and have written better songs than any that you hear on the radio. Most of the best musicians out there are not even published...you cannot buy their CD's or get their songs from iTunes. You might like one of these musicians a lot, and even tell everyone you know about them. But it doesn't matter, because that musician will remain a nobody for the rest of their lives, despite their talents being superior to those that make millions on the airwaves. You really hate the fact that you have to listen to so many musicians that you think are inferior to the guy you know down the street. But, you secretly fantasize about living the millionaire lifestyle of those crappy musicians that made it. Then, one day on the way to work you catch yourself singing along to the radio and realize that some of the successful ones really aren't THAT bad. But you can't tell me Ubuntu is as wrong as Michael Bolton. |
| tuxchick Mar 16, 2007 9:43 AM EDT |
"But you can't tell me Ubuntu is as wrong as Michael Bolton." OMG not even windows is that bad. :) |
| dcparris Mar 16, 2007 9:49 AM EDT |
Well, I am relieved to know it wasn't naivity speaking. ;-) I get your point though. I agree generally that some the anti-Ubuntu stuff is mostly just jealousness. Again, my only problem is with their plans to add more support for non-free things than I care for. Otherwise, I think it's a fine distro and community. |
| bigg Mar 16, 2007 10:22 AM EDT |
> my only problem is with their plans to add more support for non-free things than I care for While not my only problem with Ubuntu, what is very irritating is that non-free "items" will be installed by default. If you want to get rid of them, you can uninstall them, but as I've seen they don't even plan to offer a quick, painless way to remove the non-free things. |
| number6x Mar 16, 2007 11:06 AM EDT |
bigg, Or ship without and offer a quick painless way to install them. Like an icon on the desktop that says 'click here to install and configure multimedia stuff'. |
| bigg Mar 16, 2007 11:30 AM EDT |
That would definitely be my preference. The best case scenario with what they are trying to do is that there is extra junk on my computer. I fail to understand how it is problematic to require users to read a message explaining the situation and check a box saying they want the extras. |
| jimf Mar 16, 2007 12:29 PM EDT |
> I fail to understand how it is problematic to require users to read a message explaining the situation and check a box saying they want the extras. Some people think that Windows users are unable to find their own rear with both hands :D |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 16, 2007 1:00 PM EDT |
@jimf: That's not a thought but a well-known fact. A typical Windows user is totally lost on a Linux box because they only know "the Windows way". For example, it has taken me *hours* to explain to my quite computer literate sister why she should not simply download Linux software from any random location on the web (for example: All the websites that say "click here to get the latest version of flash/wmv/codec-of-the-day) but that she had to use synaptic instead. @dcparris: At least they dropped the binary video driver idea. And that's a good thing because it would have driven lots of experienced Linux people away. Their community is good because the pro's educate the newbies. It will collapse if the pro's leave. Newbies can't support newbies. My personal beef is that the quality of the distribution has slipped. I find each release more sluggish and unstable than the one before. I think QA is seriously lacking at Canonical. Edgy finally did it in for me. This laptop is the last Ubuntu machine I have left. The only reason that I didn't switch it to Debian is that it's a company laptop and I have to give it back in two weeks anyway when I change jobs. |
| number6x Mar 16, 2007 1:14 PM EDT |
the Ubuntu server edition is a nice idea as well:
http://www.ubuntu.com/server I know that setting up debian as a server is easy, but this gives you a LAMP stack right from the start. I could see people using this to build some SOHO turnkey appliances off of. It would be nice for training as well. Reminds me of the Debian consortium product, or Progeny. |
| bigg Mar 16, 2007 1:18 PM EDT |
> Some people think that Windows users are unable to find their own rear with both hands :D They might be right. I can't think of any other explanation for the existence of the Geek Squad. > At least they dropped the binary video driver idea. And that's a good thing because it would have driven lots of experienced Linux people away. They postponed that idea (rather than abandoning it), and as Mark Shuttleworth has made clear, it was only a matter that beryl is not yet ready. He has made it clear that if you use future versions of Ubuntu, you WILL be using proprietary drivers, and you WILL like it. He is so obsessed with the use of proprietary drivers that it wouldn't surprise me if Ubuntu included proprietary drivers for Intel graphics. > the quality of the distribution has slipped For me, the biggest problem is that a lot of the packages in the repositories are messed up. I have yet to encounter such a problem in Debian. I reported bugs eight months ago, yet the packages have not been either fixed or removed. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 16, 2007 1:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:He has made it clear that if you use future versions of Ubuntu, you WILL be using proprietary drivers, and you WILL like it. And we WILL rile up again and he WILL have to take notice or else the only Unique Selling Point of Ubuntu (the community) comes crashing down. Ubuntu can fall just as fast as it has risen. Faster even. |
| bigg Mar 16, 2007 1:42 PM EDT |
> Ubuntu can fall just as fast as it has risen. Faster even. Time will tell. I really don't know that he cares if he loses experienced users. The attitude seems to be that the only users that matter are Windows users. |
| jimf Mar 16, 2007 2:00 PM EDT |
> That's not a thought but a well-known fact. @sander: I was being kind ;-) > The attitude seems to be that the only users that matter are Windows users. @bigg: That's the one that really worries me about Ubuntu and a few other Distros. What price do we pay to become top dog in the marketplace? It may be at the expense of current users. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 16, 2007 2:48 PM EDT |
yeah, but if only Windows switchers remain for Ubuntu then it's community will collapse and Ubuntu with it. Marc is playing a dangerous game if he's willing to go down that road. I'm probably still hoping he comes to his senses and acknowledges that the experienced Linux users, attracted by the Free as in freedom, are one of the big pillars of the community. |
| IGnatiusTFoobar Apr 16, 2007 2:57 PM EDT |
The problem with all of helios' writing is that he's so damn alarmist about everything. |
| helios Apr 16, 2007 5:35 PM EDT |
I haven't mentioned or actually advocated actively pclinuxos for months. Catch up with your reading. You don't care for my use of the term Foss Purists...I do read other forums...that is what it comes down to isnt it. I choose to move away from a centralized advocacy and more toward pointing out the ones that are better than the others. Look...you have a chapped ass about my philisophy of Prop software and drivers. I think you may be the one who needs to get over it. Abby Hoffman politics and philosophies were fine for the Cheech and Chong crowd, but until we get our own,,,we gotta borrow from the huns. It's reality. And alarmists are in demand these days. Many of you will not react to the croc until he owns your @$$. You are using your semantics as weapons, Bad choice...and besides...rile up all you want. Shuttleworth will do what he will do. Ubuntu is a great and brilliant community. It is a mediocre distro with a sugar daddy. Now...THAT's to the point, Ya think? h |
| Abe Apr 16, 2007 7:07 PM EDT |
Woo woo, hold on for a minute, we haven't won yet to start the debate about who is going to or should be the leader. Have we forgotten who the enemy is? The way I see it, we have three main distros and in alphabetical order, Mepis, PCLinuxOS & K/Ubuntu. Red Hat is not interested in Desktop Linux, at least not for now, that is a big mistake on their part. They better get more involved otherwise they will be out. OpenSuse is controlled by Novell and Novell chose its path to be/will be controlled by MS for the foreseeable future. That can't be good and is not acceptable. Debian is doing the ground work, I see Ubuntu's desire to be independent some day. That I don't feel good about and could be dangerous in the future. Mepis and K/Ubuntu are Debian based, PCLinuxOS is not, I like to see PLOS to be Debian based too. K/Ubuntu has the financial resource, that is essential for the success of FOSS & Linux. Mepis is a great distro, complete, user friendly and very innovative, but I do have an issue with Mepis, especially in regards to Warrens views towards the GPL. I don't think that is going to change. But you never know. PCLOS is an excellent distro, solid & user friendly and on the right track, unfortunately has limited financial resource and deserves our support more than any. So far PCLOS is more technically advanced and better user friendly than Ubuntu. All distros are building on the top of each other, that is what makes FOSS/Linux great and it is the primary reason why FOSS/Linux is advancing so quickly. So you see, we need all three distros to maintain a healthy competition and pass beyond Windows. Eventually, I think all of them will mature and become closer to each other and by that time, there will be room for all of them to coexist. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion. So, can we keep this debate for later on and avoid alienation! Let the natural process take its course. |
| jimf Apr 16, 2007 8:54 PM EDT |
> I like to see PLOS to be Debian based too. yeah, me too, but probably too much to ask. |
| helios Apr 17, 2007 4:49 AM EDT |
Strike one! Helios failed me over this. Dan...I'm not in this to gain anyone's particular approval. Would that be the case, I would have already drawn a warm bath, enjoyed a bottle of sweet, red wine then opened my veins. Leading the Tux500 effort has placed more undeserved and brutal lumps on my poor old bald head than I deserved....but that's the league I play in so it's more of an observation than it is a complaint. The supportive emails and comments are more than sufficent salve for any wounds inflicted. I am truly sorry we have a disagreement, we've worked together for a long time but I'm going to ask you to do something I have only recently attempted myself. Put the politics aside and strive for the betterment of the community. You want open source drivers? Then help me with these ad campaigns...you and a vocal few seem to shoot them down no sooner than they are out of my mouth. More users mean more influence which means...man you know the drill, it's time to do something except talk and complain. Criticism without action is impotent. Having one distro suck all the oxygen out of the discussion isn't going to do a thing to spread the word of those better qualified to meet the user's needs. That's why the entire community needs to get exposure, not simply one distro...regardless of how good that distro is. Haven't we seen that already with Windows? You do much for this community but as reaction to RMS has shown us, extreme political views evinced while advocating anything taints that product. I stated so above and will do so again. I have not been an active advocate of PCLinuxOS for months. In my 3 weekly Linux Labs, on the computers I build for Komputers4Kids and in my day to day exchanges, I rotate the distros I hand out, and those number anywhere from 5 to 150 a day, depending on my opportunities and geographical location. I think Ubuntu gets way too much press for being something its not. That's all the article said and a quick google of the subject will prove out I am far from the only one that believes that. This community needs to advertise if we are to push back the enemy you and I publicly recognize. How many times do I have to praise the Ubuntu Community? Fine folks all as are the OpenSuse people... Sometimes we cannot control the shenanigans that are taking place overhead...and neither can they. h |
| dinotrac Apr 17, 2007 4:55 AM EDT |
> like to see PLOS to be Debian based too. Not me. Somehow, the thought of the fractious mob behind Debian controlling all of Linux that ain't Red Hat or Novell doesn't appeal to me. Let there be good Debian-based distros and let there be distros that are not. Monopoly has no place in Linuxland. |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2007 5:24 AM EDT |
> Somehow, the thought of the fractious mob behind Debian controlling all of Linux that ain't Red Hat or Novell doesn't appeal to me. Well, there's always Slackware and Gentoo. Not that they don't have their own problems. And that leaves out Mandriva and the multitude of minor distributions out there. I don't think monopoly is a major concern just yet. Hmm, speaking of, is anyone doing an online Monopoly server? I know someone who might be interested. Time to do some research. |
| dinotrac Apr 17, 2007 5:46 AM EDT |
jdixon - Wasn't there a kde project called kmonop? May have changed its name, but I think it was an online Monopoly (almost) server. I think a true Monopoly server requires some money to Parker Bros. for use of the trademark and trademarked symbols in the game. |
| Abe Apr 17, 2007 7:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:Monopoly has no place in Linuxland. I think Mark has in the back of his mind not to depend on some one else. I would be more concerned about Ubuntu's monopoly than Debian's. Then again, the GPL will not allow a monopoly. |
| hkwint Apr 17, 2007 9:03 AM EDT |
The problem is, Linux users like to focus on disagreements instead of similarities. Distro-flamewars are almost the best example. Microsoft would laugh their @$$ of when reading this forum, since it are the Linux users doing their work at this moment; trying to 'divide the Linux community'. Uniting Linux users is Microsoft's worst nightmare, and they are really, really glad with people like ESR and RMS, since they are good at focusing at differences of view. That's really a sad thing to see. RMS' point of view, or ESR's point of view, we are all here at LXer because we like to use Linux - for whatever reason, don't we? I know people say things which offends us from time to time; bit it's that worth all the hassle of putting up 'verbal' fights? Now, part of the plan of Microsoft to stop Linux is to break alliances. At this forum/thread, they don't even need to _help_, only watch, because we are doing it ourselves. Please stop zooming in on dissimilarities, and think what are the things you agree on with _ALL_ posters above, There ought to be some things we _all_ agree on, not? Than try to forget the things we disagree on; we are on LXer and use Linux for different reasons, and try to focus on what gets us together. That goes for all of us, including myself and _everyone_ above. It's a different process, but it's worth it. Only after we know and are concious of what brings us together on LXer and other Linux-platforms, there is room for disagreements. If you rather focus on what we disagree on, you are effectively breaking ad-hoc alliances. Since those ad-hoc alliances aren't managed and very loose, that's a very easy thing to do. If you like to break alliances, do so, but please ask Microsoft to pay you, because you are effectively doing _their_ job. |
| Abe Apr 17, 2007 10:06 AM EDT |
hkwint, Have you read my post above? There is nothing wrong with debating differences and voicing opinions, on the contrary, it is a very healthy process and strengthens FOSS in general. what is harmful is alienation. I beleive that MS is more scared of FOSS openness than anything else. Most of the posters above brought up good points, what I was trying to say is every distro has its strong and weak points and eventually will mature and coexist and let's leave it at that. I think your post is unnecessarily a little harsh. |
| devnet Apr 17, 2007 10:30 AM EDT |
Most of my rants are only about Ubuntu as being the best for New Linux Users. I don't think it is the most friendly in that aspect. It makes a mean server for me at work though :) So I have no problems with it...I hate to see it be labeled something it isn't. Hence why I rant against it a bit. At the same time, I also blog about it positively as well...but one could ascertain that I don't based on only reading my rants...so I understand why people would think this. |
| dinotrac Apr 17, 2007 12:17 PM EDT |
>There is nothing wrong with debating differences and voicing opinions, on the contrary, it is a very healthy process and strengthens FOSS in general I don't think that's what hk is talking about. You know as well as I do that there are too many folks who make too many small things too important for too little reason. Debating differences and voicing opinions is a good thing. Barking at each other is not. The difference lies in respect and consideration. By that, I don't mean charm school etiquette so much as remembering that others have value and may even know something, ie, we can all learn something from most of the people around us. I agree that this thread is pretty much within the range of strongly held differences pursued with passion and conviction, but, when you've heard (read) enough of the other stuff, you can grow weary and you can get a bit touchy. |
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