Off the Mark
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| JohnPatDell May 03, 2007 5:41 AM EDT |
With all due respect, just because you used to work at a nearby test bench doesn't mean you have accurate insight into our Linux initiative or have a grasp of the big picture of what is going on at Dell. The company, thanks to its hugely successful Web 2,0 customer feedback site, Ideastorm, has listened to the marketplace and will be providing what was asked and it will be supported appropriately. It's not all about sales, margins, etc. It's also about listening and acting, which are the hallmarks for turning around our business. Also, I don't believe an employee should leave Dell, or any company, and then discuss future pricing, whether it is correct or not, or any purported internal discussions. |
| devnet May 03, 2007 6:22 AM EDT |
Quoting:Also, I don't believe an employee should leave Dell, or any company, and then discuss future pricing,Why not? There's no harm in talking about future pricing and speculating...especially when this is a personal opinion. What you're saying is if you leave a company, you leave the right to express your own opinions on pricing? What crack pipe did you hit up before stating this? Not only that...you don't know this persons POSITION at said test bench...for all you know, they could have been running the entire office/lab. Don't assume that they were a lowly narf barely wet behind the ears and slaving away on an actual test bench. |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 6:39 AM EDT |
Devnet: Thanks, you beat me to it. There's no reason he shouldn't be speculating about Dell's pricing. |
| SFN May 03, 2007 6:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:Also, I don't believe an employee should leave Dell, or any company, and then discuss future pricing, whether it is correct or not, or any purported internal discussions.I don't believe that representatives of a company should try to dictate modes of behavior to people who don't work for that company. I mean, you know, as long as we're discussing what we don't believe in. |
| tuxchick May 03, 2007 7:09 AM EDT |
" The company, thanks to its hugely successful Web 2,0 customer feedback site, Ideastorm, has listened to the marketplace and will be providing what was asked and it will be supported appropriately. It's not all about sales, margins, etc. It's also about listening and acting, which are the hallmarks for turning around our business. " Interesting phraseology. How about some disclosure of who you are, JohnPatDell? You sound like a Dell marketing person. As a Dell employee, shouldn't you follow your own advice? Or is the rule "don't talk about company business unless you're going to be flattering and suckup"? I bet JohnPatDell doesn't come back. I bet we see more Dell astroturfers. **edit** BTW, throwing up the IdeaStorm site is a nice PR gesture, but as a serious data-collection tool it's a joke. If Dell hasn't been doing real market research all along, and doesn't have solid data on trends and customer demand, they deserve to fail. |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 7:39 AM EDT |
> ...throwing up the IdeaStorm site is a nice PR gesture A PR gesture designed to allow them to implement already planned changes, I'd wager. > If Dell hasn't been doing real market research all along, and doesn't have solid data on trends and customer demand, they deserve to fail. I would guarantee they have. They almost certainly know within a few percentage points what the actual demand for desktop and server Linux installs will be. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't either a) expect it to succeed, or b) have an ulterior motive. If it's b), it's undoubtedly related to their relations with Microsoft, and Linux is merely a bargaining chip. |
| JohnPatDell May 03, 2007 7:41 AM EDT |
First, let's get this astroturfing notion off the table. I'm a company spokesperson for Dell and part of my job involves participating in online conversations about the company. (As I said above, Dell *is* listening.) We have an online code of conduct that requires transparency e.g. in a screen name and/or mention of employment, to which I have adhered. Second, there is evidence that the individual who made the original post was a contractor and not "someone running the entire office/lab." Third, many companies have business conduct guidelines that are pretty clear about what can and cannot be said outside of the business. Last, we respect differences of opinion -- as in the relative value of Ideastorm. However, from our perspective, it's a home run when it comes to getting quality feedback from customers. It was the impetus for our Ubuntu decision, reinstating XP as a option to Vista for consumers and blogging in languages other than English, among others. |
| dinotrac May 03, 2007 7:48 AM EDT |
TC - I think JPD has smacked you pretty well here. You cannot be an astroturfer if you identify yourself properly. Now, from his first post, a sensible person would conclude that he is from Dell, but...he really should have made that more clear. Mind you, he includes Dell in his handle, which, to my old-fashioned way of thinking, is not typical of astroturfers. From my standpoint, it is not merely permissible, it is honorable for company representatives to openly subject themselves to our abuse. |
| JohnPatDell May 03, 2007 7:59 AM EDT |
No abuse inferred, dynitrac. Just good old-fashioned conversation! |
| SFN May 03, 2007 8:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:...if you identify yourself properly.Um, I'm the King of Mars. Remember? |
| bigg May 03, 2007 8:03 AM EDT |
An easy way to show that this is nonsense is to give customers what they want. Provide hardware at a good price that works with open drivers (and thus "just works" in a way that can't happen with a proprietary OS and proprietary drivers) and you will silence all speculation/criticism. |
| SFN May 03, 2007 8:05 AM EDT |
bigg has a very good point and, although I'm sure it seems otherwise, the vast majority of us would love to be silenced on issues like these. Provided the silencing is done as prescribed above. |
| JohnPatDell May 03, 2007 8:17 AM EDT |
bigg/sfn: You raise some good points. For more info on our strategy, particularly drivers, you may be interested in this Direct2Dell post: http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/03/28/9655.aspx |
| Libervis May 03, 2007 8:19 AM EDT |
It might sound a bit strange coming from me, but I say cut JohnPatDell some slack. Sure he's payed to post around here and hence he may obviously be biased, but isn't the very fact that he is being payed to participate in our community telling us something here? It seems to me that Dell has a genuine effort here and understands at least a bit of how the Free Software community works, at least that it IS a community in which there has to be an open discourse. Why would they pay their employees to engage in such conversations otherwise? I think Dell is moving in the right direction and we should at least acknowledge that. Guys, this is the dream come true in many ways for the GNU/Linux community. A top-tier vendor is actually about to sell GNU/Linux PCs to the desktop market! This is what we've been waiting for. Cheers |
| tuxchick May 03, 2007 8:57 AM EDT |
Wow, I am amazed, JohnPatDell. Ok then, I was wrong. Still, I am going to remain skeptical until I see actual Ubuntu PCs in plain sight on dell.com, and not plastered with "Dell Recommends Windows Vista!" links, and priced fairly, and completely equipped and not stripped-down in comparison to their windows cousins. Dell has played this game many times in the past- hyping their Linux PCs, which are then cunningly-hidden, overpriced, and under-featured, and then they go "See, we told you nobody wants them." Nobody cares if Dell sells Linux desktop PCs- that's Dell's business. Just quit with the empty hype and the fibbing. "Do or do not." While you're in a question-answering mood, are customers who purchase Ubuntu PCs also going to be charged for a Windows license? |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 8:57 AM EDT |
> I'm a company spokesperson for Dell and part of my job involves participating in online conversations about the company. I had assumed as much. Thanks for making it clear. > Second, there is evidence that the individual who made the original post was a contractor and not "someone running the entire office/lab." There is? Present it please. We have nothing to go by but his word and yours. He states that he was a *Dell* employee. He said nothing about "running the entire office/lab". That was someone else making a hypothetical comment. > Third, many companies have business conduct guidelines that are pretty clear about what can and cannot be said outside of the business. Which don't apply unless you're an employee. He's a former employee. Unless he signed an agreement stating otherwise, he can offer any opinions/facts he desires. You, on the other hand are a current employee. As such, your actions not only reflect on, but also represent Dell. Making comments designed to silence someone you disagree with not only doesn't reflect well, it may be actionable. I doubt that's your, or Dell's, desire. > ...reinstating XP as a option to Vista... Speaking of, why can't I find that option from Dell's website? If I go to http://www.dell.com and try to find an XP machine under Home and Home Office, I can't do so. I've tried. The link from the ideastorm site takes me to them, but I can't find them from Dell's from page. Am I overlooking something, or is this an oversight on Dell's part? > For more info on our strategy, particularly drivers, you may be interested in this Direct2Dell post: [HYPERLINK@direct2dell.com] Already read and discussed at length on this site. You may want to look for the comments, as you might find them informative. > but I say cut JohnPatDell some slack. Believe me Libervis, I am. Otherwise an apparent attempt to silence someone on an independent site would be met with a rather hotter flame than the above. That said, I think everyone here welcomes Dell's comments and feedback. Given Dell's past history with consumer preinstalls of Linux and, hmm...., "close" relationship with Microsoft, you can probably understand some degree of scepticism on our part. |
| number6x May 03, 2007 9:20 AM EDT |
JPD, Just a hint... saying things like "The company, thanks to its hugely successful Web 2,0 customer feedback site, Ideastorm, ..." In a forum populated by mainly technical types is probably one of the dumbest moves a person whose job is to influence on-line forums could make. It sounds like you are talking to your own bosses instead of the people here on the forum. Its just so contrived, it was actually painful for me to read those words! Did you come up with it by yourself, or did you have to get it approved or polished by anyone else? Just to clue you in, everything in "web 2.0" existed long before "web 2.0" or Ajax or other marketing terms like those were coined. By coining those terms, we geeks were able to present the things we were already doing to the management in a new wrapper. There is no added value with those terms. However, there is value to us code mokeys. If we present a project without using the new terms, it does not get funded. If we present the same project wrapped in the new terms, management salivates and gives us funding. If someone says "Web 2.0", it is pretty much the same as them saying "but ours goes to 11". You couldn't just say Dell is responding to demand seen in a recent on-line poll, you had to point out that your poll goes to 11. My point is that you use those kind of buzzwords when talking to the clueless people who pay you for a living. When you are here on Lxer talking to the people who actually build the code, just speak plainly. Now we have to go think up new buzz words for the same things we have been doing for the last few decades so we can make you look outdated and obsolete. BTW I hope Dell sees demand for Linux desktops, and I'm glad they have been supplying Linux servers for years. May you get the contract from Oracle or Google to supply their desktops and stay in business for a long time! EDIT: I should add these links to help explain what Web 2.0 really is: http://www.theregister.com/2005/11/11/web_two_point_naught_a... http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/008961.html |
| Libervis May 03, 2007 9:38 AM EDT |
Alright, I can understand some skepticism. From what I've read above and elsewhere what the community demands of Dell right now, that it has decided to support GNU/Linux is the following: - Computers with hardware supported by free drivers, so it can be easily supported out of the box and by the community. Going with nvidia cards on laptops instead of Intel integrated graphics would in this regard be a bad move, for example. - Prominently advertise new GNU/Linux offerings on your site, including on the homepage. Put at least as much marketing effort into advertising GNU/Linux PCs as you put into XP or Vista. There has been some of that, but the Dell.com homepage is still rather silent with regards to GNU/Linux. Note that this does not include marketing only to the server and business market, but to the home desktops market! - Price your GNU/Linux machines at a lower price than XP/Vista equivalents, because we're not paying the Microsoft tax if we buy GNU/Linux. Don't you dare hide that within the price of new GNU/Linux PCs. We'll know it! ;) - And well.. keep learning. Engaging with the community is a good step. Read that excellent post by number6x above to get a bit of an insight into who you're dealing with and continue reading and listening to others in the community. You're already well on your way there. :) - Anything else? Corporate types tend to underestimate communities of "ordinary people", hackers working for fun etc. The truth is, those should be among the most appreciated kinds of people in existance. They are the ones shaking up the world right now. They are the invisible energy that moves the world forward. Cheers |
| SFN May 03, 2007 10:26 AM EDT |
JohnPatDell, Take Libveris' list directly to your superiors. These are step-by-step instructions for making this work. If they do all of the above - not their own personal take of the above but what is actually listed above - and don't screw the pooch, Dell will come out the absolute champs on this. If they start tinkering with the above and try to mold it to their liking, they might as well just stop now. |
| Sander_Marechal May 03, 2007 10:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:Computers with hardware supported by free drivers, so it can be easily supported out of the box and by the community. Going with nvidia cards on laptops instead of Intel integrated graphics would in this regard be a bad move, for example. I fully agree. See also http://desktoplinux.com/news/NS8661763902.html and http://www.jejik.com/articles/2007/05/ubuntu_on_dell_-_good_... for example. If SJVN's source is right, why go with Inspiron Ubuntu laptops with that unsupported hardware? The Dimensions are perfect for Linux! I have a D520 that does everything, including Beryl, out of the box. |
| JohnPatDell May 03, 2007 10:50 AM EDT |
Thanks for all the feedback. There's a lot of good input here from those of you who represent "the invisible energy that moves the world forward." (Great line, Libervis!) It will be duly noted with our product people, verbatim. I can't respond point-by-point because in all candor some of your questions pertain to a relationship with a former team member, and this is not the place to air those details...but feel free to place credibility where you wish. Also, we're finalizing the program as we speak and our pricing details will be disclosed later this month, so I hope you can understand my reluctance to pre-announce. FYI, there are several ways to get XP info on Dell.com. A search of "XP" on the main page turns up a lot of product specific data, the Home and Home Office pages advertise systems with XP pre-loaded, and there is a, hopefully, helpful XP info ink on the right-hand side of our Notebook and Desktop pages within Home and Home Office site. It's called "Still looking for Windows XP?" Last but not least, my hat is off to number6x, who rightfully and thoughtfully called me out for the momentary lapsing into marketingspeak. Knew better. Paid the price. ;-) |
| tuxchick May 03, 2007 11:07 AM EDT |
So, JohnPatDell, are customers who purchase Ubuntu PCs also going to be charged for a Windows license? Yes or no? This doesn't fall under the category of 'sekrit company strategerie', but speaks directly to treating customers honestly, and giving essential information for purchasing decisions. Because if we're still being charged the Windows tax, that is definitely something that should be disclosed. For someone who doesn't want to discuss the former team member and what he said, you're sure discussing him a lot. |
| bigg May 03, 2007 11:11 AM EDT |
> So, JohnPatDell, are customers who purchase Ubuntu PCs also going to be charged for a Windows license? Yes or no? Unfortunately, I think we'll have to wait for an answer to that question. JohnPatDell would be JohnPatUnemployed if he said yes. |
| JohnPatDell May 03, 2007 11:22 AM EDT |
Tuxchick, I can assure you that we're aware of the sensitivities around the license issue but you'll just have to wait a couple weeks or so until plans are finalized and we're ready to roll out all the details. |
| jimf May 03, 2007 11:28 AM EDT |
No offense if there's a bit of skepticism JohnPatDell, but, in this society 'company spokesperson' is synonymous with 'beater'. Covering Dell's a$$ is understood as priority one. |
| richo123 May 03, 2007 11:49 AM EDT |
TC, Given this story: http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2006Nov/gee20061117040517.... I would expect the Ubuntu machines to be US$104 less. If not there better be a good explanation else all the goodwill Dell has picked up from the Open Source community in the last month will likely evaporate. |
| tuxchick May 03, 2007 12:09 PM EDT |
richo123, I expect it will be a bit more complex than that, because I'm assuming some support will be bundled with Ubuntu, which means there will be a cost to the purchaser, and a nice revenue stream to Canonical. I don't think it's realistic to assume a free ride. Y'all can invite JohnPatDell home to dinner if you like; I'm going to ignore all the vague PR puffery and whining about Aladdin_Sane emitting displeasing comments, and wait to see what really happens, since we're not getting any substantive information here. If Aladdin_Sane violated his employment contract, that's a problem between him and Dell. A company generally gets all excited about secrecy because they're concealing information they know will anger their customers or other employees, and attacking the messenger is a nice distraction from the message. The FOSS world is about openness and transparency, two values that are Kryptonite to many corporations. I'm skeptical for a lot of the reasons Aladdin_Sane mentioned, plus Dell's ridiculous history with desktop Linux. What on earth is the big deal? They make it sound like it's on a par with building a bridge to the moon. But I'm also hopeful that a Tier 1 PC vendor selling prefab Linuxes will lead to better hardware and multimedia support with GPL drivers and codecs. Not sure why the one will lead to the other, since corporate paranoia usually leads in the other direction, but I can hope. |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 12:13 PM EDT |
> A search of "XP" on the main page turns up a lot of product specific data, That shouldn't be necessary. If a customer has to resort to searching your site to find something, you've almost certainly lost a sale. > the Home and Home Office pages advertise systems with XP pre-loaded I'll have to take your word for that. I've never seen any such ads. > It's called "Still looking for Windows XP?" Yes. That's there and what I was looking for. Thanks. Now I can tell people how to find it when they ask me. I'd think it belongs in the left hand menu myself, as well as being an option during the OS configuration section of all applicable machines, but as long as it's on the page that's good enough. For cost sensitive customers (which is most of them), XP is still a far better deal, as the hardware requirements simply aren't as expensive as those for Vista. So I get a fair number of people asking me about it. |
| richo123 May 03, 2007 12:55 PM EDT |
> richo123, I expect it will be a bit more complex than that, because I'm assuming some support will be bundled with Ubuntu, which means there will be a cost to the purchaser, and a nice revenue stream to Canonical. I don't think it's realistic to assume a free ride. Fair enough, but my understanding is that Canonical support will be an optional extra and community support (i.e. forums etc) the standard deal. If so then it should be a hundred bucks less. If not I want to know why not.... |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 1:50 PM EDT |
I would expect the Ubuntu machines to be US$104 less. a) That's the UK price. Microsoft is noted for not properly accounting for currency converisons. Expect the US price to be something more like $75 max. b) There's some cost in installing the OS, even if it's free. At the very least, someone has to babysit the imaging process. c) I'd expect a token payment to Canonical for each system sold to cover something like 3 support incidences or 30 days of support after the sale. Long term support should be an optional extra, but not providing any support would be a major mistake on Dell's part. Given that, I doubt we'll see more than a $50 difference, and it might be as low as $25 or so. If it's the same price as Windows or higher I'll be building my own box instead. |
| dcparris May 03, 2007 1:54 PM EDT |
> Still, I am going to remain skeptical until I see actual Ubuntu PCs in plain sight on dell.com, and not plastered with "Dell Recommends Windows Vista!" links, and priced fairly, and completely equipped and not stripped-down in comparison to their windows cousins. JohnPatDell: I am LXer's Editor-in-Chied. I'm with TuxChick here. On a similar note, I recently attempted to contact Dell's PR folks about the fact that many Google ads for Dell are clearly labelled, "Buy Linux", but link to Dell's Windows PCs. Not only is this grossly misleading, my request for information went ignored. That is *not* the way to handle PR. Any chance you can help me out? Maybe I can actually get a chance to hear from someone on this? Or at least be humane enough to tell me directly that Dell doesn't wish to respond. Thanks, Don |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 2:15 PM EDT |
JohnPatDell: Also see NoDough's open letter to Dell article just posted on this site. |
| Aladdin_Sane May 03, 2007 3:03 PM EDT |
"A simple clarification of facts and some opinions" Facts: > JPD: ...then discuss future pricing, whether it is correct or not, or any purported internal discussions My article does not discuss future pricing, except to point out that others have already observed publicly disparities in past pricing that seem...unfortunate. "internal discussions" "model count" and "specific model" are all in my article, and per previous agreement should not be. > JPD: ...there is evidence that the individual who made the original post was a contractor... 100% true. While on the subject, I much prefer to be a "Producer" and not a "Mover" or "Shaker." >TC: ...then they go "See, we told you nobody wants them." Yes, that is what my article is about. >jdixon: He states that he was a *Dell* employee. Not true. Read the article. In other places I have stated I was a Dell employee, which is true: from 2000-2005, not relevant to the issue at hand except some tangentially related experience with Linux on Dell servers. Since I've been in, around, over and under the PC industry since 1977, I really feel little need to expose my credentials except where needed for clarity. >TC: The FOSS world is about openness and transparency... Thank you, TC, this is a "true fact" that contradicts the marketing "good fact" and will trip me up in the future I am sure: Dell has no technical secrets, only marketing ones. >dcparris: That is *not* the way to handle PR. Specifically, that is not the way to handle PR in this community, who respect transparency. Opinions: I do think y'all were a bit harsh on JPD, but I'm not surprised. What's most important to me was the healthy debate my article has started, and I hope it continues and spreads. For those not paying attention, the article started out as a post on Groklaw. JPD, my 3 indiscretions in the article, revealed above in this post, I have apologized to my former boss for. The confidentiality thing, well understood by me as a 7-year Dell knowledge worker conflicts with FOSS principles as outlined above by TC. Literally lacking the ability to keep secrets is, I am sure, my own downfall. |
| jdixon May 03, 2007 3:15 PM EDT |
> In other places I have stated I was a Dell employee, I made the comment taking into account your previous posts, not just this one. I'm sorry that wasn't obvious. |
| tracyanne May 04, 2007 2:53 AM EDT |
@JohnPatDell Will these Linux Machines be available in Australia? |
| JohnPatDell May 04, 2007 4:42 AM EDT |
Tracyanne: the products we'll announce later this month will be for the U.S. No word to share yet on any plans beyond that, but thanks for letting us know you'd be a prospect. |
| azerthoth May 04, 2007 5:08 AM EDT |
Personally I'm with TC on this one, being a more "where the rubber hits the road" mentality over this. JPD, would you please supply a way to verify that you truly are a spokesperson for Dell other than your say so? Please dont take this as an attack on your credibility, however your blowing alot of sunshine here and some of the folks are soaking it up. I hope I'm wrong and that you truly are what you claim to be. |
| JohnPatDell May 04, 2007 5:54 AM EDT |
Azerthoth: clicked on your handle and sent you my Dell e-mail address ... waiting to hear from you. |
| azerthoth May 04, 2007 6:35 AM EDT |
Ever see someone do a dance because they were wrong? Thanks for that JPD. I wont draw out the whole mental image, I dont want to be liable for the mental distress, just picture a 40ish hippy doing a jig. |
| JohnPatDell May 04, 2007 6:45 AM EDT |
> just picture a 40ish hippy doing a jig. Peace! ;-) |
| dinotrac May 04, 2007 7:04 AM EDT |
>just picture a 40ish hippy doing a jig. NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Besides, 40ish is too young to be a true hippy - unless, of course, you were born into it. |
| SFN May 04, 2007 7:17 AM EDT |
Can you be born into it? If so, I'm a 40ish beatnick. |
| number6x May 04, 2007 7:24 AM EDT |
Right dino. Being a kid in Chicago in the Sixties, there were a lot of hippies around. Most left after the democratic convention and the police crack down. My next door neighbor was a hippy, she was pretty cool. She'd baby sit us now and then. Her dad was cooler though. He was a professional magician and had pet monkeys. How cool is that! 40ish is not old enough to be a hippy, unless your parents were hippies. (I guess if your dad had a monkey that might work too). |
| tuxchick May 04, 2007 7:57 AM EDT |
I do this for a living, folks, but you don't need to be an wizened old tech journalist to recognize spin. When did this become a 'debate' and an 'exchange of ideas'?? I want real information, not empty chatter. JohnPatDell has not given us one solid piece of information, but rather swooped in here to do some spin control in response to Aladdin_Sane's supposed indiscretions, and to spread some content-free warm fuzzies. He has not responded to a single point raised by Aladdin_Sane, or anyone else, not even the non-secret obvious ones, like: "Dell's previous attempt to sell Linux on client/consumer systems went from 1999-2001, and failed miserably. Some of those mistakes Dell seems destined to repeat. Corps do not learn from their history, for the most part." Dell's miserable, insincere presentation of its Linux desktop PCs from that time period has been discussed to death; we all know what a fiasco that was, and what the problems with it were. Linux customers were foiled by numerous obstacles; you had to be canny and determined to buy a Linux desktop PC from Dell, which is such a big 'duh, that's dumb' strategy the only explanations are stupidity, or fear of Microsoft. So, JohnPatDell, is it going to be different this time, as many people have asked? Are the Linux desktops going to be easy to find on Dell.com, and easily configurable? I still remember how entering "linux" in the search box on Dell.com returned 0 hits, despite their grand announcements. "The 'Dell recommends MS' tags are found on current dell.com pages that sell Linux systems, there is no reason to expect that that won't continue." Is this practice going to continue? Does Dell have any idea how offensive this is to many Linux users, who are fed up with years of lies and attempts to kill off Free Software by Microsoft? Does Dell care? Are Linux machines going to be similarly advertised on the Windows pages? Folks, don't let your desire to see a Tier 1 vendor distributing Linux desktops blind you to manipulation and spin. When you don't get straight answers, when the first words from a company spokesman are complaining about loose lips, keep a tight grip on both your wallet and your enthusiasm. I've said it before, but I'm going to repeat it because too many people would rather flame than remember something they read yesterday- I think Dell selling prefab Ubuntu PCs is a great idea, and I hope it happens. I think with Mark Shuttleworth being involved there is a good chance it will succeed. But Dell has a long history of making and breaking promises on this subject, and trying to curry favor from the FOSS community without actually delivering the goods. Dell knows how to do Linux- they've been doing Red Hat and SUSE servers for years. This is not something that is difficult or foreign to them, despite their feigned surprise at the response to IdeaStorm. So the skepticism has a solid foundation. JohnPatDell, is Don Parris going to get the information he requested, or a chance to interview some company spokespeople? He is smart and fair- doesn't Dell want to talk to smart, fair editors? There is a lot of potential goodwill and support for a Dell/Ubuntu desktop PC, which we're already seeing. Provided Dell doesn't alienate potential customers with double-talk and empty promises like it did before. |
| richo123 May 04, 2007 8:14 AM EDT |
TC, Hear bloody Hear! Linux users in the main have put enormous effort into learning about their systems so are not fools. If Dell think they can spin us in a clearly manipulative fashion then they are in for a nasty surprise. Facts JohnPatDell not soothing words/spin will get our respect and wallets. |
| number6x May 04, 2007 8:39 AM EDT |
TC, Thanks. Ouch, but thanks. This thread hasn't been a total loss. I learned from one of sander's posts that: "The Dimensions are perfect for Linux! I have a D520 that does everything, including Beryl, out of the box." I had only heard about problems people had with the consumer line from Dell running Linux up until that. I will be searching for a laptop in the next year to replace my think pad. Now Dell becomes an option (although I'm waiting on the asus c90 and c91 to show up on a few of the Lxer Linux vendors who carry customized machines with Linux pre-loaded). |
| JohnPatDell May 04, 2007 9:08 AM EDT |
TC: I was a journalist, too, back in a day that makes me wizened as well. We used to say there was a fine line between being skeptical, which was OK, and cynical, which was considered not OK. There was nothing wrong with the intent of my initial post, which was to call out a situation that has resulted in a public apology on this site. I didn't come here to spin anyone but I did get involved a good conversation. That it was peppered with questions about a world that was, and things that can best be answered in a couple of weeks, when everything is baked, well, I have little control over that. I can be responsible, and actually I am, for listening and taking the views expressed here to those involved with Linux decisions at Dell. This has been done. I hope you can see the value in that, at least. FYI, Don should have been contacted by now by Dell's product PR group to let him know we're fixing some Google ads that make absolutely no sense to us, either. |
| NoDough May 04, 2007 9:28 AM EDT |
JPD, Please know that not all on this site are so cynical. It's just that you don't hear from the rest of us as much. Yes, Dell made some mistakes last time around with Linux. I've made more mistakes in my life than I can count. Hopefully, that makes me human, not evil. I often wish people would put honest mistakes behind them and move on. (Now just watch, someone will snipe me for using the word 'honest'.) I am trying, to the best of my ability, to convince Dell to support the Tux500 project. I think it would do both Dell and Linux a world of good to make themselves known, not just in front of the online world, but in front of the world at large. (Note that I am not a member of the Tux500 project, just an average guy that believes in it.) As I stated in a communication with another Dell representative, if I see Linux and Dell on the same car in the Indy500, then the purchase of my daughter's college laptop will be a lock-in for Dell. However, if Dell is afraid of making the Linux connection in front of the mainstream then I have to question how long they will be there for me. Thanks for participating in our community. We hope to have you here for a long, long time. NoDough |
| dcparris May 04, 2007 9:40 AM EDT |
All, In reference to the 40-ish hippie doing a jig, I'm doing a jig because I'm 40 today. :-) [edit: You might even picture me doing that jig in my shorts, next to the pig!] TC: JPD and I are addressing the advertising issue as I write this, albeit off the forums. In fact, I already have a response, from a Dell rep, but have been too busy gorging myself on strawberry pancakes to respond. And yes, I cleaned the entire plate of pancakes - at age 40, that's an accomplishment! I also greatly appreciate your perspective. It helps me keep things, well, in perspective. I did tell JPD that Dell has some pretty serious credibility issues to overcome where the GNU/Linux community is concerned - especially among us LXers. I added that the advertising campaigns we've seen haven't helped at all. The key here is to keep the lines of communication open. I think JPD understands that respect is earned, and that his company will work pretty hard to do just that. I'm an optimist, but I have been let down enough times to be wary. I think our wariness needs to be expressed - Dell needs to understand where their potential customers are coming from. The fact is, time will tell if JPD and co. can manage to help Dell make us happy campers. My guess is that Dell will move in the right direction - slowly, and with possible missteps. At the same time, we need to remember that JPD can wind up sticking his neck out, only to be left dangling from a limb. I know - it has happened to me. Iow, there a number of potential failure points. If those missteps prove to be fairly grievous, we're not likely to let Dell forget it anytime soon. Suffice it to say, we'll be watching carefully. Meanwhile, I greatly appreciate John taking the time to visit us here on the front lines. That is definitely a step in the right direction. |
| tuxchick May 04, 2007 9:46 AM EDT |
JPD, we're not even within shouting distance of cynicism, old bean! Nice attempt at distraction again. Many legitimate questions asked, none of them answered. I'm OK with wait-and-see, which will supply the definitive answers anyway. Except the one about will Ubuntu customers pay the Windows tax- if it were me I would broadcast a resounding "NO!" from the rooftops, instead of being dodgy. Since that is a hidden cost, the answer won't be an obvious one that customers can figure out on their own. I do hope Dell isn't pretending that Microsoft doesn't exert considerable control over hardware vendors- we know they do. That's not cynicism, that's reality. Again, I want this to succeed. But Dell better not be thinking it can fool its Linux customers. It hasn't worked yet. **edit** Don, nicely said. OK then. |
| richo123 May 04, 2007 10:19 AM EDT |
>if it were me I would broadcast a resounding "NO!" from the rooftops, instead of being dodgy. Since that is a hidden cost, the answer won't be an obvious one that customers can figure out on their own. I do hope Dell isn't pretending that Microsoft doesn't exert considerable control over hardware vendors- we know they do. That's not cynicism, that's reality. Not to mention that there are a large number of small vendors (System76, Emporerlinux, Los Alamos Computers etc etc etc). who do not charge a Windows tax and provide a more than adequate substitute if Dell does decide to bend to M$. |
| bigg May 04, 2007 10:52 AM EDT |
Microsoft co-marketing funds are a substantial portion of the profit margins for many large PC retailers. Tweaking the nose of the giant might be fun but it’s risky. If Microsoft reduces the per-PC marketing contribution it makes for a particular reseller, that puts them at a huge financial disadvantage relative to their competitors. This means that one of the biggest issues a computer manufacturer or reseller faces in considering Linux pre-installations is the impact it will have on the Microsoft relationship, and hence bottom line. I did not write that paragraph. This is an unedited quote from Mark Shuttleworth's blog. Do I care about the Windows tax? Not really, I just care about getting the best deal on hardware guaranteed to work with Linux, out of the box. But some people do. And according to SJVN, Shuttleworth and Dell would have been having discussions at the time of the post. He is not just another conspiracy theorist. He is in a position to know. |
| NoDough May 04, 2007 11:06 AM EDT |
IIRC, one of the requirements M$ places on resellers that receive those co-marketing funds is the "We recommend Microsoft flavor of the month" line on every page selling a system. |
| bigg May 04, 2007 11:16 AM EDT |
I don't blame Dell for that, I blame US antitrust law, but I can understand why it upsets some Linux users. |
| tracyanne May 04, 2007 1:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:Tracyanne: the products we'll announce later this month will be for the U.S. No word to share yet on any plans beyond that, but thanks for letting us know you'd be a prospect. Yes I'm a prospect, so are plenty of Australians, and in my experience plenty of Joe Average computer user types - it takes very little encouragement on my part to get such people to try a none Microsoft Operating system, IF you market desktop Linux properly AND don't get people all confused by recommending Microsoft products on every Linux Page, AND make damn sure that retailers and the public are aware that Linux is on offer. From discussing such things with retailers I am quite sure that a significant number of the big stores would happily stock Linux branded computers, especially if they could differentiate it from the Microsoft branded ones, as a product/price point. One thing we Australians get very tired of very fast is being treated like an after thought. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 04, 2007 1:59 PM EDT |
I discovered over at the Dell site that if you order a server, you can specify "no OS" and save some $700 over the default, which is the Windows server OS. You can also save if you configure with SLED. It'll cost you more, though, if you choose RHEL (but that comes with three years of support). Just the fact that Dell offers bare servers -- and provides a big discount with that option -- is a sign to me that the company will "play fair" with the Ubuntu roll-out. Now, if they promote Ubuntu as a COMPLETE desktop solution, with Open Office and all the other software associated with it, AND let their customers know that thousands of other free applications (and a dozen desktop environments) available for the platform, then they can really open some eyes, promote Linux, save people money and ... move some boxes. After all, for Dell, it's all about moving product and making money -- as it should be. The other thing Dell can -- and probably should -- do is bundle their Windows boxes with Open Office, the GIMP, and all the relevant free, open-source apps they can find. It won't make Microsoft or Adobe happy, but again, Dell's customers would be very happy. Sure, the experienced among us can populate a box with loads of free apps over the course of an hour, but the "average" user can barely install MS Office from a CD. The more Dell bundles, the more the notion of free software (and NOT accursed "demo" versions) will be implanted in the minds of the general public. As others have said, the Ubuntu-Dell deal no doubt has more to do with Dell's position relative to Microsoft than anybody is letting on. And as I've also heard, a triple-boot Dell box -- Ubuntu, Fedora and openSUSE -- would be a great thing, too. |
| tracyanne May 04, 2007 2:26 PM EDT |
The moment I get my hands on my DELL Linux box, I'll be installing the latest version of Mandriva. |
| jdixon May 04, 2007 5:06 PM EDT |
> Please know that not all on this site are so cynical. No, some of us are more so. > That it was peppered with questions about a world that was... Speaking of old hippies and to misquote a song: Was, is, and should never be. John, let me make this simple for you, speaking strictly for myself, but as an example. I recently received my federal tax return. Half of went into savings, the other have was split between my wife and myself. What's left, around $450, is set aside for a new computer. I just went to Dell's site. The low end E521 with the Sempron 3400 is more than adequate for my needs. I upgraded the hard drive to 250 GB and upgraded to a DVD burner. The price on that system, with modem, Windows Vista Basic and the recycling of an old machine, is $429. I expect Dell to be able to offer me that same machine, with Ubuntu and the recycling option, for $399 or less. I understand that they may not be able to include a modem for that price, as non-Winmodems tend to cost more, but that's the only qualifier I'm willing to accept. I just checked on MWave, and I can built the exact same type system as a bare bones kit from MWave for $306.15, so I'll be paying Dell almost $93 for preassembling the machine and preloading Linux for me. That seems slightly high, but it's acceptable, and should be more than adequate, especially as Dell should be able to get better prices than MWave. If Dell can do this, then I expect to buy a Dell later this month. If they can't, I'll write off Dell and buy the bare bones kit from MWave. That's the type of product I, and probably most of the others here, expect. Our price points and systems will vary depending on our needs, but we'll all expect to be able to build the same systems we would on the Windows side and get some type of discount for not buying Windows. I, and I expect most of the others here, don't think that's too much to ask of a vendor. I'll be waiting to see if Dell can meet my needs. |
| dinotrac May 05, 2007 3:42 AM EDT |
>I expect Dell to be able to offer me that same machine, with Ubuntu and the recycling option, for $399 or less. Why? Why do you demand a Linux distribution that they will not support, or one that nobody else supports? Why is it not acceptable to you for Dell to enter a contract with a Linux distributor? To train their own people and spend the money to assure that Linux and their boxes play together well? Etc. Sounds to me like you should just buy the MWave. Every business has people they cannot serve. |
| jdixon May 05, 2007 4:59 AM EDT |
> Why do you demand a Linux distribution that they will not support, or one that nobody else supports? Dino, Ubuntu is the distro they've stated they'll be preloading. I didn't ask for Slackware. > Why is it not acceptable to you for Dell to enter a contract with a Linux distributor? To train their own people and spend the money to assure that Linux and their boxes play together well? Etc. Again, I don't see what this has to do with what I posted. > Sounds to me like you should just buy the MWave. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I expect that's what I'll wind up doing. |
| richo123 May 05, 2007 5:55 AM EDT |
Dino, It's all about choice. I don't need a Canonical support package from Dell so why should I pay for it? I am happy to see it added as an optional extra. I agree with jdixon- Dell should offer a cheap PC with a range of add ons for support. What I object to is obfuscation i.e. pretending that the linux support is included in a price that is actually designed to protect M$'s commercial interest. Not saying that will happen but count me as wary about this possibility. |
| dinotrac May 05, 2007 7:20 AM EDT |
jdixon, richo123 - I make no presumptions whatsoever as to what a Linux-loaded machine should cost. I know that I can buy Windows Vista Home Edition OEM from Newegg for $90. I presume that Newegg makes money at that price, so I would be surprised to learn that Dell pays more than $50-$60. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for savings if Dell offers any kind of Linus support whatsoever. Maybe $30 is an entirely reasonable discount, as jdixon suggests. That would mean getting the whole cost of providing Linux to $30. Seems doable, but who knows what the final offering would look like. Seems disconcerting to me, however, that a Linux person would consider a Linux box less valuable than a Windows machine. But that's another issue altogether. Aren't we all glad that Dell is merely one alternative, and won't we be gladder if Dell makes pre-loaded Linux desktops --- that work -- as easy and as economical (maybe moreso) than equivalent Windows boxes. Methinks a few posters on this forum are sounding a little whiny. |
| jdixon May 05, 2007 11:28 AM EDT |
> I make no presumptions whatsoever as to what a Linux-loaded machine should cost. Neither do I Dino. I told John what I was willing to pay for it. Whether they meet that or not is up to them. > That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for savings if Dell offers any kind of Linus support whatsoever. Did I mention support anywhere in my post? > ...that a Linux person would consider a Linux box less valuable than a Windows machine. Price does not equal value Dino. However, you'll notice that I'm not offering to buy the Windows machine, even at a lower price. > Aren't we all glad that Dell is merely one alternative... Yes. > ...and won't we be gladder if Dell makes pre-loaded Linux desktops --- that work -- as easy and as economical (maybe moreso) than equivalent Windows boxes. Yes again. > Methinks a few posters on this forum are sounding a little whiny. Perhaps, but the Dell representative seems to want feedback. I thought a concrete example of what a potential customer was looking for would be useful. Hopefully he'll find it so, but if not he's free to ignore it. The fact that I bothered should give you some idea of how important I consider this to be. |
| richo123 May 05, 2007 12:57 PM EDT |
From the horses mouth: "Dell plans to start offering Ubuntu as an option on selected consumer PCs in the coming weeks, said Jeremy Bolen, a Dell spokesman. Ubuntu is free, and machines pre-installed with it will be less expensive than PCs of the same configuration that come with Windows, Bolen said. He declined to say by how much. PC buyers also will be able to buy support from Canonical Ltd., which distributes Ubuntu." http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/314124_dellfolo03.htm... |
| tuxchick May 05, 2007 1:24 PM EDT |
Somebody somewhere commented that the true cost of a Windows PC goes beyond just the cost of a single license. Which is good thing to keep in mind. First, multiple versions of Windows, with the less-expensive ones being crippled in various ways. Then anti-virus/malware stuff. Then personal firewall. Then, even if you're savvy enough to find freeware versions, the time it takes to install and set them up, and to replace the three biggest malware vectors of all, IE, Outlook, and Outlook Express. Then you still have no productivity software- MS Office is hundreds of dollars, and there are not many less-expensive alternatives. And then the cleanup after the almost-inevitable infestations, and the continual battles with nag- and commercial-ware, and so on and on... I don't see how Dell can make these sorts of comparisons as long as they are so dependent on Windows! But we sure can! |
| dinotrac May 05, 2007 1:45 PM EDT |
TC - A linux pc would be cheap at $100 MORE than a Windows pc. As you point out, Windows is pretty useless by itself. I must admit, I'm a tad puzzled as to why more Windows boxes don't come with OpenOffice, the GIMP, Firefox, etc. Free software runs on Windows, too -- and the price is right. |
| richo123 May 05, 2007 1:46 PM EDT |
I think the rub will be the support issue. Having been a regular denizen of the Ubuntu forum for quite a while I can say that the number of clueless ex-Windows users is pretty frighteningly high. Canonical are going to have to think through their support strategy very carefully I suspect and coordinate it well with the Dell website. Large warnings about software on the Dell site will be needed ("WTF where is MS Word and Outlook?"). Some of the ex-Windows users can be VERY demanding so the Canonical support staff better have a good plan for baby stepping these baby starlings through their initial linux experience. |
| jimf May 05, 2007 2:18 PM EDT |
> Some of the ex-Windows users can be VERY demanding so the Canonical support staff better have a good plan for baby stepping these baby starlings through their initial linux experience. I don't envy those support people. I really hope Canonical pays and treats them like gold. Even then, I wouldn't be at all interested... No way, no how. |
| tuxchick May 05, 2007 2:35 PM EDT |
dino, microsoft's two cash cows are Windows and Office. Everything else they sell is marginal or unprofitable. So you're not going to see any FOSS alternatives on preinstalls ever, methinks. |
| dinotrac May 05, 2007 3:32 PM EDT |
>So you're not going to see any FOSS alternatives on preinstalls ever, methinks. Maybe not. So much the better for Linux. |
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