simple answer, no
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| purplewizard May 15, 2008 1:20 PM EDT |
How many distributions have had their time in the big lights Redhat, Suse, Mandrake/Mandriva are the ones I went through before ending up for now with Ubuntu for now. That is missing out the 10 to 20 others I paused at briefly too or had as a dual boot for evaluation. And of course the two or three I keep around for special reasons (like DSL on a USB stick). It just feels like FUD to me. |
| montezuma May 15, 2008 1:29 PM EDT |
More Matt Hartley BS |
| Steven_Rosenber May 15, 2008 2:41 PM EDT |
He didn't address functionality. Ubuntu is selling "just works" functionality. On many levels it has achieved this, on other, not so much. In my view, the two-dozen or so third-party thick-as-a-couple-of-bricks books about Ubuntu vs. two, three or none for the other distros is a strong indication that the momentum is with Ubuntu -- and only with Ubuntu. |
| devnet May 27, 2008 8:10 AM EDT |
Complex answer: Yes. How many beta/alpha releases of other distros are slashdotted? How many make it to the front page of digg? How many, "Get $function with $application on Ubuntu" articles do you see each day? (said application and function can be installed on any number of distros). I've had some of my family say they can't install a program because it's for Ubuntu only...when it's compilable on any *nix out there...all because of teh interwebs and they're ridiculous bandwagoning. I hate to say it, but maybe Matt Hartley isn't BullSh177ing afterall. (in fact, I can't believe I said it). |
| tuxchick May 27, 2008 8:13 AM EDT |
Here devnet, some smelling salts just for you. |
| bigg May 27, 2008 10:43 AM EDT |
@devnet: I don't know the answer, but my question for you is whether other distros would be on slashdot and digg so much if Ubuntu didn't exist. Ubuntu has a good marketing machine. From what I've seen, other distros are improving marketing and usability efforts because Ubuntu has raised the bar. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 27, 2008 12:26 PM EDT |
Like it or not, the answer is yes. All the light and heat is going to Ubuntu. The reason I think, is that even though Ubuntu's marketing is all about being "Linux for the rest of is," just about all of that marketing is aimed at the geek/fanboy segment. I don't see Ubuntu -- or anybody else, for that matter -- doing much to let the rest of the world know what open-source (operating systems AND applications) is, what it can do, and why you should dump proprietary software and switch over to it. Sure, lots of us as individuals are neck-freakin'-deep in this effort, but the big dogs -- the HPs, the IBMs, even the Dells (more lip service, less transformational) -- aren't really on board. They just want to sell boxes and make money -- and not piss off Microsoft. Can't say that I blame them, but if Ubuntu -- and let's face it, nobody but Ubuntu is up for this -- could start a major initiative at getting those who've barely heard of Linux to consider switching to it, then we'd be getting somewhere. Things like the Wubi installer help. Having the Ubuntu book with the accompanying CD in it also helps. But a shrink-wrapped Ubuntu package in the software aisle at Target and Wal-Mart (even -- and maybe even especially -- one that costs actual money) would go a whole lot farther to providing real, in-the-trenches competition to Windows and OS X than anything else happening right here, right now. Preloaded boxes are essential -- and so far it appears that ASUS is getting it right in a way that Dell did not. I'll give Everex a pass until I try gOS 2 (gOS 1 being darn near criminal in its lack of features and speed). I think a lot of us are doing our part, but we need more to really make this go over. |
| bigg May 27, 2008 1:00 PM EDT |
> The reason I think, is that even though Ubuntu's marketing is all about being "Linux for the rest of is," just about all of that marketing is aimed at the geek/fanboy segment. I've got a different take on this. I think you first go after the technical users. Then you go after the rest, because the technical users can help them. IMO the apps that are available for Linux are sufficient for the vast majority of home users. What we need is the free support infrastructure from "the guy down the hall". Predicting what will happen in the next five years depends a lot on Linux's current share of the most technical 10% of users. I think Ubuntu is laying a foundation for wider adoption of Linux by appealing to that important subset of the market. I don't know the source of the quote, and unfortunately cannot find it now, but it was something along the lines, "Technical users go with Linux or Mac these days. They view Windows the way they viewed AOL in the late 90's." The 10% of Windows users that do 80% of the support still need to be brought on board. I've personally given up on Ubuntu, but they do a great job recruiting those critical users. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 27, 2008 3:20 PM EDT |
I think the system -- i.e. Linux on the desktop -- is ready now for mass adoption. The only thing standing in its way is ... well, we all know what that is. Getting hardware manufacturers to start writing Linux drivers and start selling hardware listed as "Linux compatible," and to start making the case for what a full Linux distribution with many thousands of packages offers over an application-free, pay-to-play proprietary OS, is what we need. Ubuntu -- and every other distribution -- aims its marketing at the geeks because geek love is all they know. It's easy-pickings to get geeks all frothy over your Linux distribution, especially when your ethos is not to spank too hard when the newbies ask a question. That's where Ubuntu is winning; bringing newbies along. All those Ubuntu guides from the various publishers do nothing but help. But the time is now to let the rest of the world know what a modern Linux system is all about. |
| tracyanne May 27, 2008 4:36 PM EDT |
I keep seeing new Mandriva users who are refugees from the Ubuntu is a really really easy Linux hype who find Mandriva easier. So maybe Ubuntu also acts as a conduit to exploring other Linux options, by the fact that it doesn't live up to the hype. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 27, 2008 5:04 PM EDT |
As good as Mandriva may be, at this point in time all the weight is on Ubuntu. If Ubuntu -- and by Ubuntu I mean Canonical -- were to suddenly drop out of site, I don't see anybody filling the role of "Linux for the rest of us." |
| rijelkentaurus May 27, 2008 5:19 PM EDT |
Quoting: If Ubuntu -- and by Ubuntu I mean Canonical -- were to suddenly drop out of site, I don't see anybody filling the role of "Linux for the rest of us." I find your lack of faith disturbing, LOL. Seriously, something would rise up and fill the void, I have confidence. Don't underestimate the FOSS community. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 27, 2008 5:31 PM EDT |
Who's out there who has the resources and isn't solely focused on "the enterprise"? And I don't mean the Starship Enterprise. |
| tracyanne May 27, 2008 6:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:Who's out there who has the resources and isn't solely focused on "the enterprise"? You do have a point, the thing is there aren't many desktop oriented distributions that have a very wealthy sugardaddy. Mandriva, for example seem to be much more cautious financially since their recovery from bankruptcy, and are only marketing into areas where they believe they will win in the short term, Africa, South America, old Eastern block countries, rather than doing the big push. |
| Sander_Marechal May 28, 2008 6:37 AM EDT |
Quoting:I keep seeing new Mandriva users who are refugees from the Ubuntu is a really really easy Linux hype who find Mandriva easier. I've recently switched a coworker to Linux and will be switching two more on friday. I recommend them Ubuntu for a very simple reason (and I tell them this reason): Quoting:Ubuntu is a friendly distro for nebiews. It's not the best, or the easiest, but the large community and vast number of articles and tutorials aimed at Ubuntu make up for the rough edges. My coworkers are all reasonably computer literate. Some are Windows power users. They know how to google for technical problems. It's so much easier for them if they can search for "Ubuntu XXX" and get 500 results as opposed to 10 for Mandriva. |
| Sander_Marechal May 28, 2008 6:38 AM EDT |
PS: I also make it a point of showing that Ubuntu Linux isn't the only thing out there. I also show them a live CD of Mandriva and PCLinuxOS before I install Ubuntu. |
| jdixon May 28, 2008 6:54 AM EDT |
> Ubuntu is a friendly distro for nebiews. I agree that's a strong selling point, and is the major reason I'm willing to recommend Ubuntu to people. I think PCLinuxOS, Mepis, and possibly Mandriva and Mint are better new user distro's, but the Ubuntu fora and support community are defintiely their strong point. |
| tracyanne May 28, 2008 1:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:S: I also make it a point of showing that Linux isn't the only thing out there. I also show them a live CD of Mandriva and PCLinuxOS before I install Ubuntu. So you actually do equate Linux with Ubuntu. |
| tracyanne May 28, 2008 1:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:It's so much easier for them if they can search for "Ubuntu XXX" and get 500 results as opposed to 10 for Mandriva. Yes I noticed when that doing a search for a problem I had with a monitor/nVidia and Linux that I got hundreds of hits for Ubuntuites asking about the same problem, and none from any other distro. The problem was none of those Ubuntu hits had a solution to the question. I posted on the Mandriva Forums, and got an answer, almost immediately, and a solution to my problem. Go figure. |
| Sander_Marechal May 28, 2008 2:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:So you actually do equate Linux with Ubuntu. Not at all. I just acknowledge the possibility that a newbie might think so. I'm just making sure that the new Linux convert doesn't think so. So that when he's unhappy with Ubuntu, he'll try other distributions instead of hopping back to Windows. |
| tracyanne May 28, 2008 3:41 PM EDT |
I suspect, then, it was a typo, you left out the Ubuntu in
Quoting:I also make it a point of showing that Linux isn't the only thing |
| Steven_Rosenber May 28, 2008 4:40 PM EDT |
Hey, I'm running the Mandriva live CD right now. Pretty nice -- and I'm no KDE fan. I take it that PCLinuxOS was forked from this, since a lot here looks very familiar. As far as live CDs go, this one is pretty smooth. I started in KDE but switched to IceWM. I'd love to try the GNOME version, but I take it I'll either have to pay or do a full install and bring in GNOME at that point. Just like in PCLinuxOS, configuring a static IP was easy. Two things: The mouse configuration utility doesn't seem to be working. I'd like to turn off the tap-to-click on my Alps touchpad, but when I click any of the choices in the configuration utility, nothing happens. And I tried Suspend, but it didn't do anything. I'll have to investigate further. On my Gateway Solo 1450 thus far, Ubuntu has the edge as far as touchpad configuration and suspend/resume go. I could get the touchpad under control in PCLinuxOS 2007, so it's possible that installing Qsynaptics will take care of it. Right now, the spell-checker function in Firefox is telling me that every other word is misspelled. I don't know what that's all about. As far as speed is concerned, it's as fast as anything, and fonts throughout look very good. It's funny. At the end of the day, Linux is Linux, no matter what distro you're running. Some distros treat certain hardware better than others, and work with less tweaking, and there is an element of design and package choice that differs depending on where you go. Things that matters a lot to me are stability, support (both length of time and quality), variety and quality of packages, and which desktop environments are well-supported. Generally distros that focus on KDE don't do GNOME all that well, and vice versa. I'll keep looking at Mandriva. If it booted on my VIA C3 Samuel test box, I could do an install right now, but my other suitable platform, the Gateway laptop, needs a little tweaking before it can triple-boot (Ubuntu 8.04 and Debian Lenny are on there now). But so far, I do like what I see. Community looks helpful, too. I don't quite know what Mandriva's situation is as far as what they offer for free and what they sell. Right now, everything works OK. Not as well as PCLinuxOS, and not as well as Ubuntu 8.04 ... but pretty well nonetheless. |
| bigg May 28, 2008 5:34 PM EDT |
> I'd love to try the GNOME version, but I take it I'll either have to pay or do a full install and bring in GNOME at that point. Why not just run the GNOME live cd? And when you install from that, you get GNOME, with no KDE. Mandriva's GNOME is excellent. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 28, 2008 5:38 PM EDT |
Quoting:Why not just run the GNOME live cd? I just figured that out. I have the ISO. I just have to burn it. They don't make it easy to find. I had to grab the ftp path to the KDE CD and go backward. But I do have it, and I'll give it a spin. |
| bigg May 28, 2008 5:44 PM EDT |
The Mandriva website is a case study in how not to build a website. |
| rijelkentaurus May 28, 2008 5:55 PM EDT |
The PowerPack is worth the money. I've donated to Mepis, PCLOS and a couple others over the years, 2008.1 was so good that I consider the $59 a worthwhile donation. Funny, I had PCLOS on my girl's PC, bought Mandriva to give her something more stable, while I would use PCLOS and have something a little more cutting edge. Now I use Mandriva and I left PCLOS on her PC because it's running perfectly and having no issues. |
| tracyanne May 28, 2008 8:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:I don't quite know what Mandriva's situation is as far as what they offer for free and what they sell. Right now, everything works OK. Not as well as PCLinuxOS, and not as well as Ubuntu 8.04 ... but pretty well nonetheless. Interesting. My experience is the opposite. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 28, 2008 8:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:My experience is the opposite. Different hardware, different results. That's the way it goes. I've got one box that won't boot anything past Red Hat/CentOS 3, any recent Fedora, PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, FreeBSD, NetBSD and a bunch of others, yet it will run Ubuntu, Debian, Slackware, OpenBSD, Puppy, Damn Small Linux, Mepis, and a bunch of others. But again, I did like Mandriva. The GNOME desktops in Ubuntu and Debian, as they default, are more to my liking. But as with PCLinuxOS, the way Mandriva does KDE is much better -- for me, anyway -- than Debian or Ubuntu. |
| Sander_Marechal May 28, 2008 9:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:I suspect, then, it was a typo, you left out the Ubuntu in Duh! Now I see it... Apparently the sentences "Ubuntu isn't the only Linux out there" and "Ubuntu Linux isn't the only thing out there" got mixed up somewhere. Fixed. |
| tracyanne May 28, 2008 9:55 PM EDT |
@Sander, what you and I do is fairly similar, except I tell them they are getting mandriva, and can change that when they have become sufficiently familiar with Linux to make the decision. |
| devnet Jun 02, 2008 7:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:@devnet: I don't know the answer, but my question for you is whether other distros would be on slashdot and digg so much if Ubuntu didn't exist. Well they'd have to talk about something wouldn't they? So the answer is yes, something would fill the gap. |
| devnet Jun 02, 2008 7:47 AM EDT |
Ok...let me give an example of what this is really about. What's a kleenex? Most people in the US Midwest refer to tissues as Kleenex...because of brand loyalty and saturation, that is what they're known as and other tissues don't get ANYTHING close to the sales that kleenex do/did. Ubuntu is becoming THE brand for Linux. So when innovation like what is happening with OpenSuse right now happens, it is less important. That's my real problem. For example, MEPIS has had the easiest installer since 2003. PCLinuxOS has been able to remaster/create new distro since 2003 (and create usb installation and usb home). None of this is known...and all of it is attributed to other distros. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 02, 2008 10:30 AM EDT |
If PCLinuxOS had the resources of Canonical, it could do a hell of a lot. As it is, it's doing pretty damn well. But right now, the name of the game is getting your distro preinstalled by a big company like HP, Dell or Lenovo. And in that department, it looks like Xandros (ASUS eee) and SUSE (HP) are doing pretty darn well. I haven't heard of any new Ubuntu preinstalls, but I could be missing some. |
| NoDough Jun 02, 2008 11:15 AM EDT |
Steven, You may have missed this one http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu Unless by "new", you mean just this year. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 02, 2008 11:20 AM EDT |
That Dell link gives me a "Page Not Found." But I'm pretty much taking about this year. I'm not sure about the full impact of Dell's Ubuntu adventure, but between aiming it a fanboys only, burying it on their Web site and providing little to no financial incentive to choose a free OS over Windows, along with not making sure all the hardware worked with Ubuntu, I'd say it's time for Dell to re-evaluate what they're doing. |
| NoDough Jun 02, 2008 11:21 AM EDT |
Dead link? |
| jdixon Jun 02, 2008 11:33 AM EDT |
> Dead link? We're Sorry The page you requested may no longer exist on Dell.com |
| tracyanne Jun 02, 2008 1:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:Dead Link Yeah Dell's Linux thing deosn't seem to me to have been that serious, more and more it seems to me it was a Marketing thing, a way to grab headlines, and therefore better name recognition, in the face of competition. As such it worked. The good thing about it, is that other manufacturers saw a real market there - Asus Eee, and the Elonex ONE. |
| NoDough Jun 03, 2008 9:15 AM EDT |
>> Dead link Curious. Apparently, the link I provided is not a permalink. Typing "Ubuntu" in the keyword search does find the page. The link seems to persist across sessions for me, but not across days. >> Yeah Dell's Linux thing deosn't seem to me to have been that >> serious, more and more it seems to me it was a Marketing thing, >> a way to grab headlines, and therefore better name recognition, >> in the face of competition. As such it worked. Well, duh! Of course it was a Marketing thing. They are a business. Did you think it was charity? You can also bet that it was serious. (Responsible) Businesses don't throw money at things they aren't serious about. When the Linux market matures enough you will see it advertised on their home page. In the meantime, expect Dell and others to test the waters now and then. >> The good thing about it, is that other manufacturers saw a real >> market there - Asus Eee, and the Elonex ONE. Ask any random individual in the super market: What's a Dell? They'll know the answer. Ask them: What's an Elonex? "Umm. I dunno. Do you blow your nose with it?" What's an Asus? "What did you call me?" And back we go to discussing market maturity. The unfortunate thing (at least from my perspective) is that Asus and Elonex and Zareason and others will spend huge amounts of time and effort growing the market to maturity and Dell and HP will harvest the results. It's very rare that one of the little guys ends up becoming on of the big guys. Ironically, Dell is one exception to that rule. |
| gus3 Jun 03, 2008 9:30 AM EDT |
Quoting:>> Yeah Dell's Linux thing deosn't seem to me to have been that >> serious, more and more it seems to me it was a Marketing thing, >> a way to grab headlines, and therefore better name recognition, >> in the face of competition. As such it worked.That wasn't the point (at least I don't think so). Dell's "we've got Linux!" hand-waving was only a headline-grab. As such, the decision was likely made by the marketing department, not by executives with marketing's input. Shipping a few units may be fine, but unless they've also made the necessary internal adjustments to support those units, their calls to get our Linux from Dell ring mighty hollow. |
| NoDough Jun 03, 2008 11:10 AM EDT |
>> Dell's "we've got Linux!" hand-waving was only a headline-grab. Really? Then why are they still selling it? Why burden themselves with it when the opportunity to draw attention has come and gone. The emotional desire to see Linux marketed to the masses by the big boys is our common bond. However, our emotional desire isn't the basis for a sound business plan. When it is sound business, they'll do it (as will everyone.) Then we'll whine and bitch because they are too late, or because they aren't doing it big enough, or because Linux still has to share space with some other OS on their web pages, or because they chose the wrong distro, or because they don't support EVDO version X from vendor Y, etc., etc., etc. We're winning! Linux is increasing and its primary competitor is decreasing. I just find it odd that our form of celebration involves the vilification of any business that dares offer Linux while continuing to service the bulk of their customer base which doesn't want it (yet.) Human nature amazes me. |
| dumper4311 Jun 03, 2008 7:37 PM EDT |
@NoDough: How dare you question our fervent pursuit of ideology over practical functionality! :) |
| tracyanne Jun 03, 2008 7:49 PM EDT |
Quoting:Really? Then why are they still selling it? Why burden themselves with it when the opportunity to draw attention has come and gone. Well it's still not available in Australia, so it looks to me that they aren't burdening themselves. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 04, 2008 7:41 PM EDT |
I hope Dell regains its footing and really pushes Linux, be it Ubuntu, Suse or Red Hat. I have a feeling, however, that Dell isn't particularly interested in the non-fanboy market. It's smart to get fanboys in your corner. You have to start there. But you need to let the rest of the world know what a modern Linux distribution can do for them. I get the feeling that Dell and many others feel that the average user, accustomed to the Windows and Mac way of doing things, just can't wrap his/her head around having every application available via a package manager and not having to buy/borrow/steal discs in order to install software. At this point, it's all about educating the public as to how Linux differs from Windows/Mac and how those differences can be of great benefit. |
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