Different for Power Users and casual users
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| perspectoff Nov 11, 2008 12:13 PM EDT |
You have the perspective of a long-term Linux user. You are used to the command line interface, know the tricks and workarounds in many Linux distributions. But you are far removed from the perspective of a newcomer to Linux, or a convert from Windows or Apple. For those types of users, Kubuntu Hardy or Intrepid Ibex are the only ones that will satisfy. If you haven't had the pleasure of installing Kubuntu in only a few hours and having everything (including wireless and networking) work out of the box, with options able to be set from a GUI, then you are obviousloy using some "ancient" version and basing your opinion on that. I like Gnome, but I love KDE, and now KDE4 is really nice. Yes, it has bugs, but so does everything. Why do you think every program on the planet has continuous updates? No, Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex is a different experience than what you are used to from what sounds like over 5 years with old-fashioned Linux systems. You can make Debian approximate what Kubuntu does automatically, but it is a lot of work. I don't want to put down Debian -- I have it on my system as well (for comparison). It is admirable and the purest in the spirit of open source Linux. But for the average user, it is difficult. For the power Linux user it is great, and I hope it never disappears, since Ubuntu/Kubuntu is based upon it. But if Linux is to continue the exponential growth it is currently experiencing, the Kubuntu experience will have to be appreciated widely. |
| tuxchick Nov 11, 2008 12:50 PM EDT |
Mepis, Mint, Sabayon, and Mandriva are all very nice for new Linux users. The whole Ubuntu family are pretty good and they have a lot of good company, which gets overlooked a lot. |
| flufferbeer Nov 11, 2008 1:15 PM EDT |
@tc, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with perspectoff's perspective ;) more than yours on this one. As very nice as Mepis, Mint...et al all certainly are, my WinsucksXP users have heard much more of Ubuntu than of these Linux distros. These same persons have PC's that M$ wants to coerce into getting Vi$duh, but they've refused! They've used Ubuntu and variants or directly know people that have; either as dual-boot PC's or those w/ one OS-only totally absent Winsucks. That's a fact. One thing I see immensely helpful for these new Ubuntu users is the Ubuntu Community forums and other online help sources. I guess, TC, that Ubuntu provides very nice TLC ;) compared with many other Linux distros for these transitioning Linux newbies. 2c |
| jdixon Nov 11, 2008 1:25 PM EDT |
> my WinsucksXP users have heard much more of Ubuntu than of these Linux distros Which says as much about your users as it does about either Ubuntu or the other distros. |
| tuxchick Nov 11, 2008 1:29 PM EDT |
flufferbeer and perspectoff, I'm not disagreeing-- Canonical has certainly been the most successful in getting the word out, and is the friendliest to Sauron's refugees. I just thought it worth mentioning that the Ubuntu gang are not the only polished, noob-friendly Linuxes. There are several of them. A wealth of Linux riches! |
| Steven_Rosenber Nov 11, 2008 1:42 PM EDT |
Especially in their default GNOME desktop forms, Debian and Ubuntu are more alike than different. |
| flufferbeer Nov 11, 2008 4:03 PM EDT |
@jdixon
> Which says as much about your users as it does about either Ubuntu or the other distros.
Yeah, and it also says as much about the effects of M$ Sales reps! :( @tc, > Canonical has certainly been the most successful in getting the word out, Actually, I see SLED as vastly the most successful _commercial_ distro in somehow getting the word out for Linux inside of mixed environments. WinsucksXP users seem to hear much more of Canonical and its Ubuntu in an "off the grid" fashion rather than ordained by those "on-high" or than set up as default. IIRC, I think that there was a good comment by Helios on this somewhere. Whatever the case, I think that SuSE keep things very _transparent_ for newbies working in mixed environments, but yet does not particularly seem very _friendly_ for such newbies as does Ubuntu. As perspectoff reminds us above: > But you are far removed from the perspective of a newcomer to Linux, or a convert from Windows or Apple. |
| jdixon Nov 11, 2008 4:12 PM EDT |
> One thing I see immensely helpful for these new Ubuntu users is the Ubuntu Community forums and other online help sources. That's one thing I'll give Ubuntu. As far as I can tell without being there (I only visit when a search leads me there) and from what other people tell me, the fora are very newbie friendly, and make a point of being so. I can't say the same for many other distros. The one user I've installed Ubuntu for has been very happy with it. |
| tuxchick Nov 11, 2008 4:30 PM EDT |
Even cooler is none of the power-users goodies are taken away from the "noob" distros-- it's all still there. |
| tracyanne Nov 11, 2008 4:46 PM EDT |
Where I am the most well known Linux distribution is Mandriva. Most people have never heard of Ubuntu. |
| azerthoth Nov 11, 2008 5:41 PM EDT |
I'm with TA, having used all of the above, Mandriva is by far the best new user distro. (OK she didnt say it outright, but we know her favorite). I think that coming from a confirmed Sabayon user, says a lot of how good Mandriva really is. |
| ColonelPanik Nov 11, 2008 6:14 PM EDT |
They all work about the same to a non tech user. Where they differ is when things go wrong. |
| Steven_Rosenber Nov 11, 2008 6:40 PM EDT |
Many projects can learn from the Ubuntu community. A lot less RTFM, a lot more help. A lot of that help isn't of high quality, but at least you don't get your knuckles smacked with a metal ruler for asking how to mount a hard drive. |
| tracyanne Nov 11, 2008 7:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:Many projects can learn from the Ubuntu community. Maybe they could, but Ubuntu isn't the only friendly community, that welcomes novice users. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 11, 2008 9:02 PM EDT |
The only non-friendly forum I have ever been a part of is PCLinuxOS...and they're not bad for the most part, unless you ask The Forbidden Question. A-holes tend to get run out of most communities, IMO, although there are still a few. |
| jdixon Nov 11, 2008 10:14 PM EDT |
> The only non-friendly forum I have ever been a part of is PCLinuxOS Some Slackware fora are noted for not being particularly newbie friendly. :( |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 11, 2008 10:25 PM EDT |
Quoting: Some Slackware fora are noted for not being particularly newbie friendly. :( Uncivilized behavior is horrible...but since Slackware is not known as a newbie-friendly distro (whether that is deserved or not...), that's not as bad as PCLOS, which is most definitely known as newbie-friendly. |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 12, 2008 3:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:unless you ask The Forbidden Question. Which is? |
| gus3 Nov 12, 2008 3:53 AM EDT |
The Forbidden Question is, "When is the next version coming out?" |
| mortenalver Nov 12, 2008 4:06 AM EDT |
Is it forbidden because the current version is so old, or has it always been forbidden? |
| gus3 Nov 12, 2008 5:38 AM EDT |
It has always been forbidden. The correct answer is, "The next version will come out when it comes out." Anyone who isn't satisfied with that answer can kindly take their childish, self-centered pestering elsewhere. |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 12, 2008 6:43 AM EDT |
I've heard many less positive experiences about the PCLinuxOS forums. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 12, 2008 8:42 AM EDT |
It doesn't even matter how you ask The Forbidden Question, even if you're a newcomer who is just curious you'll get blessed out.Quoting: Is it forbidden because the current version is so old, or has it always been forbidden? It is getting quite moldy, kernel 2.6.18.x. And I always wonder about the security with PCLOS, because you never really receive kernel updates, or at least not very often. And for trying to be a "user-friendly" cutting-edge style distro, that's a very old kernel. The whole reason that PCLOS 2007 (still the current version name) got pushed to get out quickly was because they were still using gcc 3.x and things like the new flash player wouldn't compile correctly. I can't even say that they're keeping the applications very current, I haven't had an update on my girl's PC in a while. She will soon be running Mandriva, anyway. I was a big supporter once...but since Mandriva has their act together, I really question the need for PCLOS now, it just seems moldy. Anyone know when the next version is coming out? :) |
| techiem2 Nov 12, 2008 9:19 AM EDT |
Yeah, PCLOS was nice...when it was up to date...I started my mom's comp on it..then switched her over to SAM early this year...then to Mandriva 2009 recently. |
| mortenalver Nov 12, 2008 9:36 AM EDT |
Looks like they are currently betatesting the 2009 version.... |
| jdixon Nov 12, 2008 11:23 AM EDT |
> "When is the next version coming out?" The correct answer is supposed to be "When it's ready". That's always the stock answer for Slackware. > I've heard many less positive experiences about the PCLinuxOS forums. I've heard a few. But, as with Ubuntu, I'm not there, so I can't speak personally. |
| tuxchick Nov 12, 2008 11:28 AM EDT |
There aren't any good reasons to be flamey and rude. If a question gets asked a lot, then have a FAQ, and nicely point noobs to it. If Ubuntu's biggest achievement is making civility cool, then that will be a major accomplishment. |
| happyfeet Nov 12, 2008 11:38 AM EDT |
I only had one snotty reply on the Sabayon forum; the rest were helpful. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 12, 2008 11:38 AM EDT |
Agreed, TC. |
| Steven_Rosenber Nov 12, 2008 3:15 PM EDT |
All this "forbidden question" stuff can be avoided with a clearly stated, easily found policy on release frequency and support. Ubuntu does a release every six months. Each release is supported for 18 months. LTS (long-term support releases) are supported on the desktop for three years. Debian only releases when ready, but once the Testing distro becomes Stable, the current Unstable at that moment becomes Testing, and the formerly Stable distro becomes Old Stable and receives minimal patching for a year. At least that's how I understand it. There was a time when I didn't know that Debian even had an Old Stable designation. Somebody from Debian explained it to me (and they were very nice about it). It would be nice if Debian had it laid out better on their Web site, but at least there is a policy. Since the current Stable, which is Etch, has been out for more than a year, the former Stable, which is Sarge, hit its end of life as Old Stable in April of this year. Slackware doesn't have a set schedule but does release about once a year, give or take. (A peek at Slackware's Distrowatch page -- http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=slackware -- confirms this). The rolling release method is OK. But from what I see, PCLinuxOS is pretty loose. Sure the main PCLinuxOS 2007 release still has a 2.6.18 kernel (which happens to play very nicely with my Gateway laptop), but RHEL/CentOS 5.2 ALSO has a 2.6.18 kernel. I can't say for sure how often the PCLinuxOS kernel has been patched, but I know that the RHEL kernel has seen plenty of updates. Even Debian Etch has a 2.6.18 kernel, and Debian patches it fairly frequently. Sure there's a newer kernel in Etch and a Half, but I suspect that the 2.6.18 kernel in Etch is as secure as the newer one. All of the alternate PCLinuxOS releases -- Mini Me, GNOME, etc. -- seem to have newer kernels, and any of those can be built up to work just like the 2007 release, I expect. And with PCLinuxOS 2009 in beta, there will be a newer version of the project's main distro released soon enough. From my perspective, releasing every year is good, every six months OK, and every two years not bad at all as long as security is taken care of in the interim. (That means Debian Lenny should go stable by next April to keep me happy.) |
| gus3 Nov 12, 2008 3:28 PM EDT |
@S_R: All the clearly-stated policies in the world don't mean a thing, when someone's first thought is to ask in a forum or a chatroom rather than do a Google search for "$DISTRO release schedule". The stock answer "when it's ready" or "it will come out when it comes out," is designed to discourage this line of questioning. Otherwise, the entire Internet would dissolve into an electronic version of "Are we there yet?". |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 12, 2008 3:58 PM EDT |
Quoting: Sure the main PCLinuxOS 2007 release still has a 2.6.18 kernel (which happens to play very nicely with my Gateway laptop), but RHEL/CentOS 5.2 ALSO has a 2.6.18 kernel. I can't say for sure how often the PCLinuxOS kernel has been patched, but I know that the RHEL kernel has seen plenty of updates. Even Debian Etch has a 2.6.18 kernel, and Debian patches it fairly frequently. Sure there's a newer kernel in Etch and a Half, but I suspect that the 2.6.18 kernel in Etch is as secure as the newer one. Thank you for illustrating my point. Where in the H are the PCLOS updates to the kernel? It's only sensible for a release to run the same basic kernel for its lifetime, but it has to have security patches compiled into it to keep it secure, and I don't recall PCLOS doing much of that. AFAICT, it's pretty much the same kernel that started things off, perhaps with a patch or two (perhaps...but I don't remember one...if I am wrong or if it does get patched regularly, then my apologies to the Ripper Gang). Red Hat/CentOS patch on a pretty regular basis, as do Debian and Mandriva. And if you want to avoid the "forbidden question" stuff? Don't flame new users who want to know, for starters, calmly point them to a stated policy. But "release when ready" is really just an excuse in this case. With Debian, it's "when it's ready...which is looking like around February". In the PCLOS forums, even someone who is following the beta releases and is curious as to when they might finalize it is gonna get flamed...that's just not cool. |
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