Oops! I was wrong. They haven't learned cr@p.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dinotrac Jan 15, 2010 9:47 AM EDT |
Once again, we see that KDE developers seem to keep their heads firmly implanted where they don't belong. Sigh. |
| bigg Jan 15, 2010 10:11 AM EDT |
The most important thing is to enforce the rules. It's extra fun when functionality is removed without warning. As I recall, it's been two years since the KDE 4 release parties, yet this is the type of thing that happens in beta. |
| tuxchick Jan 15, 2010 10:58 AM EDT |
sighhh...."fix your hostname". What if it's not your hostname? |
| jdixon Jan 15, 2010 10:58 AM EDT |
> ...yet this is the type of thing that happens in beta. KDE4. The perpetual beta release. :( |
| gus3 Jan 15, 2010 12:20 PM EDT |
I'll be the contrarian here. I think this is good. After all, if M$ were doing this, we'd all be in a tizzy about "embrace, extend, extinguish." No, wait. I'll drop the contrarianism this time. The host name requirement in RFC1122 has been rendered obsolete by DNS support for Unicode domain names for several years now. Sigh. |
| azerthoth Jan 15, 2010 12:43 PM EDT |
/me goes back to fluxbox |
| bigg Jan 15, 2010 12:56 PM EDT |
/me happy I hate KDE and don't use it |
| theBeez Jan 15, 2010 2:06 PM EDT |
@big Me unhappy. Gnome hasn't been producing anything decent since it has been released. KDE didn't suck until 4.x. That's quite a difference. - Amarok still better than Banshee - K3B - Whohahaha! - Gnome Office - does it exist?? - Dia (ok, you got me there) - GIMP (ok, there too) |
| azerthoth Jan 15, 2010 2:19 PM EDT |
OK, in all seriousnessless, who of hands of people who actually do have underscores in there? While I can see the implications for some, I think the overall effect on the majority will be along the lines of changing the depth of a keypress from 1 mm to 1.0001 mm. just my .02 which traditionally isn't worth a wooden .05. |
| bigg Jan 15, 2010 2:32 PM EDT |
@Beez I agree that some KDE apps are better than their Gnome counterparts. I use Kate most of the time, for example, but I can run those KDE apps on Gnome or XFCE. I like the simplicity of Gnome, KDE is designed for those who think more options are good, but for me options that I don't use just get in my way. KDE also has a Fisher-Price feel to it that I cannot handle. |
| DiBosco Jan 15, 2010 4:41 PM EDT |
Well, this lone voice is going to see he is very happy indeed with the latest version of KDE4. I think they've done a cracking job on it and really wish they and the distributions hadn't released it as a production version so soon. |
| hkwint Jan 15, 2010 4:49 PM EDT |
I'm also pretty happy with KDE4 - because I don't use kwin and was never a 'real' user of KDE3. Apart from that, let's not be a hypocrite. If Microsoft allows non-standard behaviour everyone is upset, and require MS to adhere to standards. Now KDE adheres to standards - and forces its users to do as well, and doesn't allow non-standard behaviour (while Windows does), now people are upset. |
| d0nk3y Jan 15, 2010 5:02 PM EDT |
Yeah - I have to confess I'm really enjoying using KDE at work too after being a long time Gnome user (still am at home, and on the netbook), While annoyed at the change, I do see this as a good thing too - it's always difficult in the fuzzy middle period of standards adherence. My initial reaction was "aww cr@p - that's not cool!". But I waited for those feelings to subside before I made the blog post. But I thought it was important to let everyone know about the change as it may affect some. Like me at work where we have some older servers with underscores in the name. These servers should all be gone by mid-2010 and, in the meantime I've created DNS aliases for them with a hyphen instead of an underscore. Just for me on my KDE 4.4 RC1 box to connect too.... (because I can). ;-) For many many years now, whenever a Windows box was given a name with an underscore in it, a warning would appear saying that this is a non-standard name and you may have difficulty connecting to it from some clients. I just had never experienced that until now. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jan 15, 2010 5:07 PM EDT |
For me it's apps that govern desktop choice. Even though digiKam can do more than gThumb (and way, way more than F-Spot, but don't get me started), I like the gThumb look and feel so much better that I'm pushed toward GNOME by it. I also really like the Epiphany browser. For those instances where I don't absolutely need to use Firefox, which is about 3/4 of what I do, I use Epiphany. I'm still using the Gecko version, but I've had experience with the Webkit version as well and will be happy when it makes its way into Debian Stable. And I like Gedit. It's not perfect, but its good enough and loads fast. I also like Nautilus. That alone is enough to keep me using GNOME. I know I could use whichever apps with whichever DE, but until GNOME really messes up (i.e. makes Mono a core dependency), I'm good. |
| gus3 Jan 15, 2010 7:42 PM EDT |
@az: The leading underscore is to mark the first comment your account says is "unread," used by the "Jump to new" link between the thread title and the thread itself on LXer. A printable glyph is required, unfortunately because some browsers can't deal with a named anchor containing no printing text. |
| j_roc Jan 15, 2010 8:03 PM EDT |
@Dinotrac No I don't think so. The GNOME guys leased that space the day mono was born. |
| dinotrac Jan 15, 2010 9:01 PM EDT |
j_roc - Then they should have stayed home to protect the roost, because the KDE team very clearly stole the space. As to mono -- that's apples to oranges. I don't know what people were depending on for day to day work that was dependent on mono/ no mono one way or the other. |
| krinpaus Jan 16, 2010 2:29 PM EDT |
Are there any sysadmins here that have mail/dns/web/IM/database/etc... servers that have hostnames with an "_" character in them? (If you say yes, you just realized WHY you have issues, eh??? Plus that red-face) Actually, this is a Qt change, NOT a kde change, made in regards to STD3 and the checking of hostnames. Kudos for enforcing the RFC. DNS is a bitch enough on mid- and massive-scales (no, on ANY scale) without cockups like misnaming hosts. Others may want to go back to the article and re-read the comments... |
| tuxchick Jan 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT |
Devs bring all this carping and criticism on themselves, because they act like they are charged per word when they deign to answer questions from the peasants. "It's not to standard, so go away and quit bothering us" doesn't win any friends. Standards adherence has never ever been iron-clad; Linux, including the kernel, is chock-full of workarounds and tolerance for non-standards-strict behaviors. Linus has a policy of the kernel never ever breaking userland behaviors, even when it means kludging something in the kernel. A recent example of this was Alan Cox's frustration with the Linux TTY subsystem; Alan's patch broke some app I forget now, so Linus wouldn't allow the patch even though the app was not behaving correctly. In this case, the only explanation given in the bug report is 'That domain violates STD3. STD3 requires all DNS domain names to be limited to Letters, Digits and Hyphen' Yeah? So? What is STD3, Sexually Transmitted Disease 3? If it is arrogant dev shorthand for the relevant RFC, is it the most current RFC? If there really is a good reason to do this, acting like snooty twits doesn't convey the reason, and leaves users frustrated. There were examples in both bug reports of Konqueror refusing to access certain domains, and emitting a splendidly unhelpful error message. Dumb de dumb dumb. |
| tuxchick Jan 16, 2010 3:15 PM EDT |
A little more ranting-- I'm baffled why anyone would go to the trouble of removing this functionality, when it has been there since forever, not bothering anyone, especially when Konqueror increasingly sucks at Web browsing. It has a lot of features that I like, but it has never been as good as Firefox at handling script-heavy sites, and it's getting worse. More and more I have to rely on Firefox, and Konqueror spends a lot more time in the barn anymore. Deity forbid putting some energy into making it a good Web browser. This DNS-underscore business probably won't affect a lot of users, but it does affect some, and for no good reason. As dino said at the beginning, it seems to illustrate a cruddy attitude in KDE-land. For another example of devs creating conflict and ill-will for no good reason, look at this Okular fight. Many users want a way to close the page flip bar at the bottom, and this request caused so much offense one of the maintainers quit. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157284 Shush dino, I'll never admit I might be starting to agree with you about KDE. |
| dinotrac Jan 16, 2010 3:16 PM EDT |
TC - I love it when you talk all dirty like that. |
| tuxchick Jan 16, 2010 4:01 PM EDT |
Credit where credit is due, dino, I seem to recall you were right. Once. ;) |
| gus3 Jan 16, 2010 4:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:It has a lot of features that I like, but it has never been as good as Firefox at handling script-heavy sitesAha! *orchestra hit* http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell NoScript, anyone? Seriously, in this age of rogue JavaScript exploiting 0-day holes, the "user experience" has come to include "having your address book hijacked in a drive-by." Yes, I use a little JavaScript in my site, but the site doesn't become unreadable or unnavigable when it's turned off. |
| dinotrac Jan 16, 2010 4:41 PM EDT |
Hmmmm..... I seem to remember a day in the dingy old past where personal computer implied some respect for individual prefereneces... |
| jdixon Jan 16, 2010 5:56 PM EDT |
> I seem to remember a day in the dingy old past where personal computer implied some respect for individual prefereneces... Sheesh, Dino. Next you'll be expecting politicians to listen to their constituents. :) |
| tuxchick Jan 16, 2010 7:24 PM EDT |
Sorry, personal preferences are against the rules. Chew your lumpy milk and be grateful. |
| helios Jan 18, 2010 1:58 PM EDT |
"Chew your lumpy milk and be grateful." First off Tuxchick, stay out of my refrigerator. Second, this behavior is precisely what drove The HeliOS Project away from KDE. Truth be told, the debacle of KDE 4.x was enough but when old behaviors/habits/features are summarily axed without so much as a warning shot, then I am beginning to think that the KDE guys are taking a page from the Gnome guys by taking pride in ignoring their users. Personally it's went further than what is reported, at least for me. The slow, steady march to make Dolphin the default file manager was stupid. Sure some will adapt but that's not the idea. I am probably one of the half dozen people world-wide that needs/uses mouse gestures in Konqueror (in file manager mode). Used to be, one could go into "inode" and move Konq up over Dolphin and you had Konq back as your default file manager. Yeah, you still can but they've moved some of the functionality of Konq either to new configuration places or stripped some of it completely. And then again there's Nautilus. Sigh... On a personal level, my choice of a DE has come down to who hasn't pissed me off as much as the other...at least for now. I might simply go back to FluxBox after Gnome 3.0. Time will tell. h |
| dinotrac Jan 18, 2010 2:29 PM EDT |
Ken -- >On a personal level, my choice of a DE has come down to who hasn't pissed me off as >much as the other...at least for now. Oh, do I feel your pain. The KDE thing really pissed me off because I was screwed over WRT KDE ten years ago when Debian pulled KDE support because of the QT license. I stopped using Debian then, and use it now only because it underpins Ubuntu. Now, after that very nasty taste in the mouth -- for which I never blamed the KDE team -- KDE itself tells me where to go stick my head. Sigh. I don't remember ever seeing anything that requires one of the 'S's in FOSS to stand for 'Stupid'. |
| gus3 Jan 18, 2010 4:43 PM EDT |
Heh. "Ubuntu: Free and Open Source Stupid." Part of me says, "ouch!", and part of me says, "if the shoe fits...". |
| jdixon Jan 18, 2010 5:36 PM EDT |
> On a personal level, my choice of a DE has come down to who hasn't pissed me off as much as the other... Which, for me, would be XFCE. :) Though, as I pointed out on another thread, it's really only good in comparison to Gnome and KDE. Taken solely on it's own merits, it's only passable. Of course, in comparison to Windows... |
| DiBosco Jan 18, 2010 6:40 PM EDT |
I ask again: what functionality has actually gone from KDE4 that annoys people so much? (I'm not being sarcastic, but interested as a KDE user who thought KDE4 was awful a year or so ago, now thinks it's excellent.) Again, I find it mystifying that people just didn't stick with KDE3 until KDE4 was out of beta rather than spitting their dummies out. :~p |
| dinotrac Jan 18, 2010 6:44 PM EDT |
DiBosco -- Hmmm. Stick with KDE 3? I did that for a long time, but, at some point, one needs to upgrade the distro and/or get new versions of applications, etc. It becomes a pain to stay back while everything else moves forward. |
| ComputerBob Jan 18, 2010 8:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:Hmmm. Stick with KDE 3? I did that for a long time, but, at some point, one needs to upgrade the distro and/or get new versions of applications, etc. As I've mentioned before, both here and at other places, I've been using Debian Squeeze since a couple of weeks after it was released as Debian Testing. But I'm still using KDE 3.5.10 and grub-legacy -- and I'm still holding back 158 (as of this writing) "upgrades" that want to switch my systems to KDE 4. So far, the only app that it's made a difference to is OpenOffice.org, which won't allow me to upgrade any more until I switch to KDE 4. And yes, it's been a minor pain in the butt, but at least at this point, it's still my pain of choice. |
| dinotrac Jan 18, 2010 8:18 PM EDT |
CBob - Oh, I know it can be done. I did it for a while ten years ago when the whole Qt license thing erupted. I finally reached the point where it screwed up my desktop and switched to Suse. Bad memories. |
| jdixon Jan 18, 2010 8:45 PM EDT |
> I find it mystifying that people just didn't stick with KDE3 until KDE4 was out of beta rather than spitting their dummies out. Uhm, because the distros didn't give them any choice? The only distos I know of which didn't switch fairly early were PCLinuxOS and Slackware. I'd have to check on Mepis. But most of the big distros switched to KDE4 way too early. |
| DiBosco Jan 19, 2010 6:19 AM EDT |
@jdixon. Two things: 1. Up until the very latest Mandriva release you still had the choice of KDE3 as a desktop, it's just KDE4 was the default. 2. Why not just stick with re old release? I just stuck with 2008.1 until 2010.0 came out and it was a stable and nippy release. I just don't get the need to *have* to change to every new release. I still get the impression - although I could be wrong - that most people have taken one look at KDE4 and gone. "No", rather like Windows users who tried Linux years ago and thing it's the same as it was back then. Other than that, I still don't see much missing from KDE4 at all now. OK, it's new and you have to learn slightly different things, but - again - moaning about that is just like Windows users moaning they have to learn something (slightly) different when they switch to Linux. |
| jdixon Jan 19, 2010 7:09 AM EDT |
> 1. Up until the very latest Mandriva release you still had the choice of KDE3 as a desktop, it's just KDE4 was the default. I don't use Mandriva, so I can't speak to that. Tracyanne would be the one to ask why that didn't work for her. She had so many problems she dropped Mandriva. > 2. Why not just stick with re old release? Human nature. The desire for the latest and greatest. > I still don't see much missing from KDE4 at all now. The Key word there is now. It's been over a year since KDE 4.0 was released. The distros took the KDE team at their word and assumed 4.0 was ready for release. It wasn't. That's as much the distros' fault as it is the KDE team's; they're the ones who are supposed to perform testing, quality control, and integration; but the KDE team definitely misrepresented the status of KDE 4.0. Well, they got what they claimed they wanted, beta testers galore. And then they were surprised and upset when the testers said that it wasn't feature complete and that it was buggy. |
| jacog Jan 19, 2010 7:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:She had so many problems she dropped Mandriva.If memory serves, she dropped it because they started defaulting to KDE4. Mandriva is probably the most problem-free distro I have ever used. It's somewhat bloated, sure, but things tend to just work, the repositories are rich and full of goodies, and is has pretty decent KDE4 AND Gnome default configurations. |
| dinotrac Jan 19, 2010 9:05 AM EDT |
jdixon - More than human nature. People who use applications to do things sometimes need versions of those apps that are newer than the ones in the distro. At some point, you start needing to upgrade a lot of dependencies (or compiling yourself) and it becomes a serious PITA. Servers are fairly easy, but desktops definitely like to be up to date. |
| TxtEdMacs Jan 19, 2010 9:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:The distros took the KDE team at their word and assumed 4.0 was ready for release. It wasn't.[uncharacteristically serious] Unfortunately I remember too well the screaming when Ubuntu's KDE version was coming out with the 3.5 version rather than the 4.0. The volume of the noise was deafening where the common assertion was, without a trace of doubt, 4.0 was ready and deserved to be part of the default installation. What I do not remember was any sort of apology offered when it bombed on other distributions. [/serious] YBT |
| bigg Jan 19, 2010 10:09 AM EDT |
> People who use applications to do things sometimes need versions of those apps that are newer than the ones in the distro. Yes, especially when you use FOSS apps for your work and have to work with others. They use Windows and, in spite of security and other problems, they always have the latest versions of FOSS apps installed. Some apps do a good job with backward compatibility, but I've never used one that was fully forward compatible. > At some point, you start needing to upgrade a lot of dependencies (or compiling yourself) and it becomes a serious PITA. Particularly if you use a Debian-based distro, as they tend to split everything into dozens of packages. I speak from experience. |
| dinotrac Jan 19, 2010 10:11 AM EDT |
And all - let us not forget the past... From one who started with KDE in 1998... Until KDE 4.0, the KDE time had a pretty good track record of delivering usable x.o releases. Heck, their betas tended to be stable enough and featureful enough to use. Based on track record, it was reasonable to assume that KDE 4.0 would be a usable desktop. |
| DiBosco Jan 19, 2010 12:57 PM EDT |
I think maybe we're starting to partially agree. Yes, KDE4 was rubbish, but now it's good and things like the grouped apps thing in 4.4 are all making it preferable to KDE3.5 now. I just get the impression people are saying KDE4's rubbish and I'll never use it again. Yes, they made a mistake releasing it too early, but man, for something the vast majority of people have paid precisely no pounds and no pence for, it seems pretty churlish to keep banging on about what it was like a year to a year and a half ago. The distros have to take a *lot* of the blame for this. We were all screaming at Mandriva it was nowhere near ready and from what I understand this was the situation with others. Quoting:I don't use Mandriva, so I can't speak to that. Tracyanne would be the one to ask why that didn't work for her. She had so many problems she dropped Mandriva I didn't mean to infer you should use Mandriva, sorry if it came across that way. I was just assuming other distributions had the same option, and even if yours didn't, you could always use one that did in the meanwhile. Quoting:Human nature. The desire for the latest and greatest Well, it might have been the latest, but it certainly was not the greatest. ;~) Hence why I had a test machine to see how it [KDE4] was coming along and one where I just key my stable old release on. Quoting:Yes, especially when you use FOSS apps for your work and have to work with others. They use Windows and, in spite of security and other problems, they always have the latest versions of FOSS apps installed. Some apps do a good job with backward compatibility, but I've never used one that was fully forward compatible. Yes, fair enough, IIRC, this is why Tracyanne couldn't continue as she had an iPhone compatibility issue. I reckon that's a very small percentage of people. |
| tracyanne Jan 19, 2010 5:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:Well, they got what they claimed they wanted, beta testers galore. And then they were surprised and upset when the testers said that it wasn't feature complete and that it was buggy. They were even more surprised, it seems when a large number of Beta Testers said you aint paying me enough to test this crap, and walked. I exchanged several emails with Aaron Seigo at the time. He seemed arrogant, he seemed to think I should be grateful for all the work he and others had done. He kept pointing to a bunch of trivial applications like Facebook integration on the desktop, and Weather applications and similar applications that could be pinned to the desktop in those giant icon thing.. plasmoids, I kept pointing out that Dolphin lacked almost all of the useful functionality of Konqueror, and provided me with a bunch of Bling (SVG images that expanded when you made the Left hand panel wider etc) instead. He seemed to think I should be happy with that. Over the short period that I've been using GNOME on Ubuntu, I've come to like it and find it really useful, I don't miss anything from Konqueror, and when I test a KDE distribution, I still dislike Dolphin intensly, it still feels wrong, One thing I especially hate is the fact that the terminal is a panel within Dolphin, and doen't open as a seperate window, when you select Open terminal from Dolphin. That was One thing I really loved in KDE3, being able to opena terminal Window within the context of the directory I was viewing, I can do that in Nautilus. I'd have to install a KDE distro to list other annoyances/comparisons, that's just one that comes to mind as I write this. I like Ubuntu, I'm using GNOME and XFCE, because I can install it on a newbie's computer and they can be up and running very quickly with a minimum of explanation. I find Mandriva takes a bit more work, so I won't use Mandriva's GNOME or XFCE versions, and I won't use KDE4, I haven't seen anything in my testing that endears me to it, I don't even use KUbuntu, except occassionally for testing. My biggest complaint about Ubuntu is F-Spot, everyone I've set up machines for that do photos complains about not being able to find their photos in the filesystem when they want to email them or edit them with the GIMP. I've replaced F-Spot with DigiKam on any computer where I've had complaints. There's a minor issue with mounting the camera after that, that no one seems to be bothered by. If I could fix that it would be sweet. |
| bigg Jan 19, 2010 5:36 PM EDT |
> he seemed to think I should be grateful for all the work he and others had done I've never understood that attitude. It's the output that matters. They can spend the whole day making pies out of mud and cactus, but that doesn't mean I will be happy. Also, claiming to be a "volunteer" on KDE is like "volunteering" to play major college basketball. It's not charity for sure. It's a different story for small projects. |
| dinotrac Jan 19, 2010 5:46 PM EDT |
bigg - You hit on a major point. Some programmers are paid in dollars, but even volunteers get paid in the form of prestige points. The reason programmers are attracted to a project like KDE is a function of their interest in the project and the fact that they get to work on something that lots of people use... and, ummmm, that prestige you get -- it ain't free. People leave when you start, umm, sitting on them. |
| DiBosco Jan 19, 2010 5:51 PM EDT |
The whole dislike of Dolphin is not relevant. Konqueror is still there and it's an absolute piece of cake to change it to default file manager. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should go back to KDE4 (if you like Gnome, that's fine), but just don't slag it off when you haven't tried the latest version. I think Aaron might have a point about people being grateful, they give you access to an excellent free desktop and all people do is moan about it! |
| bigg Jan 19, 2010 6:05 PM EDT |
> they give you access to an excellent free desktop and all people do is moan about it Long ago I lived in an all male freshman dormitory. There was a guy who thought it would be a good idea to tear apart one of his x-rated magazines and hang the pictures on the walls. He was proud of what he did and upset when someone tore the pictures down and threw his expensive magazine in the garbage. He thought he was doing everyone a service. He wanted us to be grateful. Some of us didn't like what he did with something we used every day, no matter the money and time he put in. Kind of like the KDE project. |
| bigg Jan 19, 2010 6:07 PM EDT |
@dino I don't know anything about Aaron Seigo, but working on FOSS projects often helps the developers get jobs. |
| azerthoth Jan 19, 2010 6:11 PM EDT |
No offense TA, but can I stick a needle in one of your points? Konqueror is still there and it can still be assigned to be the default file manager. Personally I like dolphin and was using it long before KDE4 was out, simply because it doesn't have pretensions of being something that it's not. |
| DiBosco Jan 19, 2010 6:25 PM EDT |
@Bigg, sorry, I don't quite see your analogy being relevant. KDE want you to be grateful if you use it, but they're saying if you don't like it, don't use it - which seems fair enough. The long and short of it (to me) is that KDE4 is an *excellent* desktop. It was poorly implemented when they released it too early, but the KDE devs knew that long term it was going to be good and not changing because some users couldn't see that seems fair enough to me. I'm repeating myself, I'm afraid, but people just seem to ignore this salient point, that it *is* excellent now and people are basing their opinion on an outdated version. Again, I'm repeating myself by saying they made a big cock-up releasing it as stable too soon, but that's in the past; move on, accept it for what it is now. I'm a little concerned this is me trying to persuade you that you should be using it, but I do want to make it clear that's not the case. :~) |
| tracyanne Jan 19, 2010 6:26 PM EDT |
az, I've tried it, the core filemanager functionality of Konqueror is Dolphin. Konqueror is basically a skin over the top of Dolphin now. But as I said that is just one annoyance that comes to mind. All of the Things that Dolphin isn't are what I want. All of the things that is, I either don't want or couldn't care less about. Basically it aspires to be something I either don't find particularly useful, at best or annoying at worst. I'd rather use Microsoft's Windows explorer. |
| bigg Jan 19, 2010 6:43 PM EDT |
> I'm a little concerned this is me trying to persuade you that you should be using it, but I do want to make it clear that's not the case. :~) Don't worry, I've always been a gnome/xfce user. > if you don't like it, don't use it - which seems fair enough They took a project that many users (not me) liked, and turned it into something they didn't like. It's not different from saying, "if you don't like my pictures, don't look at them". Just as there is only one hallway, there is only one version of KDE (unless you change distros or put up with major inconveniences, which is a big price to pay). If KDE 3 had continued to be supported, it would be different. They more or less destroyed KDE 3 in the process. As I see it, it's that destruction of KDE 3 that is the source of criticism. |
| tracyanne Jan 19, 2010 6:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:If KDE 3 had continued to be supported, If they had built KDE4 in KDE3's image than gone on from there, there would not have been any complaints, at least not from me. Instead what they did was through away the baby and keep the bathwater. Your baby has gorn dahn the plug'ole Your baby has gorn dahn the plug The poor little thing was so skinny and thin He shoulda been bathed in a jug http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/y/yourbabyhasgonedow... Sorry, it just came to mind. |
| DiBosco Jan 19, 2010 7:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:They took a project that many users (not me) liked, and turned it into something they didn't like. Which is bizarre because it's really not that different to KDE3. It looks (much) nicer and has some really cool new features. What's not to like?! Other than that, on a day-to-day basis, I see no big difference. I am befuddled by the reaction to it! |
| dinotrac Jan 19, 2010 8:21 PM EDT |
There is also another matter that we haven't touched on directly in this thread -- that of trust. The KDE team had built a tremendous reservoir of trust and good will by continually improving the KDE desktop and and seeming to care about the growing army of users who relied on their work every day of the week. I'm screwed if I can't use my computer, and the desktop is my interface. The KDE 4.0 has seriously diminished my trust in and respect for the KDE team. It's harder for me to trust them now, and harder for me to believe that they take users' needs seruously. That's a heavy indictment to lay on so important a tool as a desktop. KDE 4, by most accounts, is much better now. I suspect the KDE team is a little bit wise, too. Do I trust them? Not sure. |
| jdixon Jan 19, 2010 9:21 PM EDT |
> I didn't mean to infer you should use Mandriva, sorry if it came across that way. No, it didn't come across that way. I was merely disavowing knowledge of that distribution. > ...this is why Tracyanne couldn't continue as she had an iPhone compatibility issue. I reckon that's a very small percentage of people. A small percentage of Linux users, yes. Of computer users, probably not. > Do I trust them? Not sure. A simple review of what this thread was originally about should answer that question. Removing functionality without warning or recourse isn't a particularly trustworthy action. |
| tracyanne Jan 19, 2010 10:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:It looks (much) nicer and has some really cool new features. I disagree. I think KDE 3 looked nicer, and I don't see all that much in the way of cool features. GNOME and XFCE plus compriz are much better. |
| DiBosco Jan 20, 2010 6:47 AM EDT |
@TA, I think you're probably in a small minority on the looks front. I show KDE to my non-Linux using friends and they all think it finally makes Linux look like a modern operating system. (Yes, I know it's only the desktop, not an OS, but you know what non computer people are like!) This was on thing I often used to struggle with when trying to persuade people to try Linux - that the desktop looked old fashioned. @dino, the trust thing never came into it for me I suppose. I always just assumed they'd get it right long term - which they have. Quoting:A small percentage of Linux users, yes. Of computer users, probably not. As we're talking about Linux then the point is valid. ;~) Quoting:Removing functionality without warning or recourse isn't a particularly trustworthy action. I ask again, what functionality isn't there any more?! As someone pointed out above, this removal of the underscore is to conform with standards which we always moan at MS for not doing. Other than that - what is missing from KDE4 that was in KDE3? |
| dinotrac Jan 20, 2010 6:57 AM EDT |
DiBosco -- You probably haven't had the experience of being completely hosed by people "who will get it right eventually". Patience is generally a virtue, but not always one you can afford to exercise. |
| jdixon Jan 20, 2010 7:09 AM EDT |
> Other than that - what is missing from KDE4 that was in KDE3? No idea. My distro just upgraded to KDE4 with the latest release, and I haven't upgraded to it yet. |
| tracyanne Jan 20, 2010 7:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:I show KDE to my non-Linux using friends and they all think it finally makes Linux look like a modern operating system. Show me what you've done to make KDE4 look good, because I've not seen a single KDE4 based desktop that looks at all inviting, mostly they look boring and bland, even standard Ubuntu looks more interesting. If that's what a modern desktop is supposed to look like then, then there's no hope hope for us. |
| jacog Jan 20, 2010 8:00 AM EDT |
Arguing looks is a bit pointless, because nobody can state as an absolute fact that something looks good or bad since tastes differ. db likes the look, ta does not ... neither of you are "wrong" or "right", they are just opinions. |
| DiBosco Jan 20, 2010 10:49 AM EDT |
@TA, I've not done anything to it, I'm running it as the default install. Oh, btw, cool features include being able to drag an app from one monitor to another without having to minimise first, lovely little plasmoid widgits like the dictionary, the grouping function that's in the next release that will enable you to see things like OO or kwrite instances as tabs. I really miss things like that when I go back to my 2008.1 machine now. One thing I do miss is not being able to name tabs in konqueror (which I'm pretty sure is not just a skin of Dolphin as it seem to work the same as in KDE3 to me!) and konsole. @jacog, yep, you're spot on, there is no right or wrong in looks. All I can go in is empirical evidence from my non-Linux using friends. Actually, TA is the first person I've come across who doesn't like how it looks, but you're right, that does not make her opinion invalid. I reckon, by the same token, "If that's what a modern desktop is supposed to look like then, then there's no hope hope for us." is pretty unfair. @dino, no I haven't been "hosed" (that word makes me smile!) in the past. Maybe I'm just naïve. |
| dinotrac Jan 20, 2010 11:56 AM EDT |
DiBosco: Nah. It's just human nature to be optimistic and then go the other way after getting burned. |
| gus3 Jan 20, 2010 12:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:You probably haven't had the experience of being completely hosed by people "who will get it right eventually".Using Windows doesn't count? |
| jdixon Jan 20, 2010 1:14 PM EDT |
> Using Windows doesn't count? Have you ever assumed Microsoft "will get it right eventually"? |
| gus3 Jan 20, 2010 3:12 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Well, their sales pitch with each release is basically, "Finally, Windows done right." I'd rather use Wine. The beverage, or the program, preferred in that order. |
| tracyanne Jan 20, 2010 4:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:Oh, btw, cool features include being able to drag an app from one monitor to another without having to minimise first, I can do that on Windows, and also on a GNOME desktop. Quoting:lovely little plasmoid widgits like the dictionary Plasmoids are just giant icons, hate them, they clutter up the desktop even worse than standard icons. GNOME has them only they aren't called Plasmoids, don't use them. If cluttered desktops are what it takes for a desktop to be considered modern, I may as well go back to using Windows 95. I have a dictionary, it's in my top panel, out of the way until I need it. Quoting:the grouping function that's in the next release that will enable you to see things like OO or kwrite instances as tabs. Sounds like something I can already do on GNOME and XFCE with Compiz. Quoting:I really miss things like that when I go back to my 2008.1 machine now. But you don't have that functionality yet, so you can't possibly miss it. |
| DiBosco Jan 20, 2010 5:37 PM EDT |
TA, you're missing the point, just because you might be able to do something else on a different desktop is irrelevant to whether KDE4 is good or not. Stuff like you not liking giant icons doesn't affect whether or not it's good. You don't *have* to have "cluttered desktops" (I don't find it cluttered anyhow), you could choose not to use them. You don't use the giant Gnome icons, but Gnome has them, therefore you should hate Gnome too by your reasoning! I *do* have two of the three functions I mentioned, therefore I can miss them when I go back to 2008.1 I get it, you've taken a dislike to KDE4, but that doesn't mean it's not an excellent desktop to others. Anyhow, I think I've said enough. the long and the short of it is that KDE4 is now a cracking desktop. We'll have to disagree. Over and out. :~) |
| tracyanne Jan 20, 2010 6:55 PM EDT |
Quoting:TA, you're missing the point, just because you might be able to do something else on a different desktop is irrelevant to whether KDE4 is good or not. Stuff like you not liking giant icons doesn't affect whether or not it's good. DiBosco, you stated that KDE4 was an example of a modern desktop, (by inference GNOME KDE3 and XFCE are not quote: "I show KDE to my non-Linux using friends and they all think it finally makes Linux look like a modern operating system."), and pointed to those things as an example of what a modern desktop has. I merely pointed out that those "cool" things are not exclusive to KDE4. If people think your desktop is an example of a modern operating system, then I suspect you must have at least some bling on it, as a standard KDE4 desktop is so boring it doesn't rate a second look. In addition even Windows seems less bloated. As for Giant Icons, on GNOME they aren't installed by default. I have to opt in, on KDE4 I have to opt out. One of the things I do miss on my GNOME desktop, is the ability to customise the desktops, like I used to be able to do on KDE3, but I can't do that on KDE4 either. |
| jacog Jan 21, 2010 4:04 AM EDT |
Quoting:If people think your desktop is an example of a modern operating system, then I suspect you must have at least some bling on it, as a standard KDE4 desktop is so boring it doesn't rate a second look. Again you are stating your personal opinion as an absolute fact. It's not a very good way to have an argument/discussion. |
| tracyanne Jan 21, 2010 7:49 AM EDT |
Ok jacog, I am, I guess some people like washed out blue, sorry that I don't. |
| jacog Jan 21, 2010 8:18 AM EDT |
Exactly, and others might like poopy brown - they are entitled to. |
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